RE: Disappointed by medical professionals yet again... OT and long sorry!

April 5, 2007

Wow, Tina your little guy has sure been through it. We had a similiar experience

here where she got a cold, then a sinus infection, got the Zithromax and she got

better and then on the second day off Zithromax she spiked a low grade fever and

the dr recommended Keflex (very, very strong antibiotic).

We just rode it out giving extra C and probiotics and Golden Seal and she got

much better and the fever went away. She's eating and sleeping fine now and all

signs of the sinus infection are gone and have not returned for about 3 weeks.

There was something going around here that was similiar where people would get

better and then it was like the virus doubled back and set something else up.

I'd be tempted just to wait.

If we do have to use a bigger antibiotic we use something like Cef (or ph?)

losporin, lighter than Amoxicillin and/or Augmentin. If her gut was horrible we

would do the shots but I understand they are quite painful and can't see putting

all of us through that. We just double or triple the probiotics during the time

she is on the antibiotic. Also using Florastor is highly recommended during

antibiotics.

[ ] Disappointed by " medical professionals " yet again...

OT and long sorry!

My ds started running a fever almost two weeks ago. I began treating

him with homeopathics immediately. I increased the Vitamin C to 3000

to 5000 mg per day, added mycellized A, astralgus, echinachea,

Virastop, colloidal silver, OLE, Sambucol, and tons of probiotics.

His fever ranged from 102-105 and 3 days into this his right eardrum

ruptured. We contacted his DAN who then prescribed Cipro drops for

his ears and told us to get him into his pediatrician if he didn't

improve in the next 24 hours.

We ended up in the peds office on day 5. My child had a fever of

105.2 in the office. We left with a Rx for Zithromax and a diagnosis

of double ear infection and pharyngitis. And, after numerous

warnings to the nurse practioner she made my son's already ruptured

and oozing eardrum bleed because she jammed the otoscope in too far

during the exam.

I felt so defeated. We were trying to avoid antibiotics at all cost

to save my child from anymore damage to his wounded gut. Anyway, he

started to get better right away. Two days after we finished the

antibiotic he spiked another fever 101.8!! I called the pediatrician

right away and she insisted we start our child on Augmentin. I

begged her for any other options and she claimed it was the right

treatment.

In a panic I called our DAN who refused to prescribe an alternative

but recommended we find someone to give our son an injection of

antibiotics because Augmentin would not be a good idea to give our

child. The closest doctor is 2 hours away and we would have to take

him 3 days in a row for the shots.

Here is where I need some guidance... my son's fever broke last

evening without giving him anything. He slept 12 hours last night,

AND technically the Zithromax should still be working in his system.

Any advice on what to do next? Is it possible that the extra vit C

is pulling viruses at this point? My husband and I are scared to

wait it out but even more afraid of giving him even more

antibiotics. I'm tired of being blown off by doctors!!!!

Sorry so long, any thoughts would be a huge blessing. I trust your

advice over our pediatrician's anyday.

Thanks so much

Tina (Luke's exhausted Mommy)

April 5, 2007

>

> Wow, Tina your little guy has sure been through it. We had a

similiar experience here where she got a cold, then a sinus

infection, got the Zithromax and she got better and then on the

second day off Zithromax she spiked a low grade fever and the dr

recommended Keflex (very, very strong antibiotic).

>

> We just rode it out giving extra C and probiotics and Golden Seal

and she got much better and the fever went away. She's eating and

sleeping fine now and all signs of the sinus infection are gone and

have not returned for about 3 weeks.

>

> There was something going around here that was similiar where

people would get better and then it was like the virus doubled back

and set something else up. I'd be tempted just to wait.

>

> If we do have to use a bigger antibiotic we use something like Cef

(or ph?) losporin, lighter than Amoxicillin and/or Augmentin. If her

gut was horrible we would do the shots but I understand they are

quite painful and can't see putting all of us through that. We just

double or triple the probiotics during the time she is on the

antibiotic. Also using Florastor is highly recommended during

antibiotics.

>

THANK YOU SOOOOO MUCH! My gut is telling me to wait it out too. My

paranoia sets in considering it's Thursday now. I am praying we don't

have a setback this weekend and end up in the ER. I forgot to

mention we have no insurance either. I'm not complaining about it...

we just have to factor that in without compromising our child in any

capacity.

His chelation schedule screeched to a halt in the past three weeks

as well. I am anxious to get him back on track with that too.

Never a dull moment. Again, I appreciate your response more than

you know.

Tina

April 5, 2007

I should know better by now than to jump into this, but it seems I never

learn. So many things to comment on here. Main thing, could the DAN

and the pediatrician not speak with one another? Where I live docs talk

to one another about mutual patients all the time. Antibiotics are

indicated primarily for bacterial infections. The relative incidence of

viral v. bacterial sinusitis or otitis media varies among different

parts of the country, but viruses usually account for half or more cases

of otitis, less than ten percent of sinusitis.

Prescribing an antibiotic is predicated on a supposition of what is

causing the infection. Strictly speaking, there is no such thing as a

'strong' or 'mild' or 'weak' antibiotic. Antibiotics differ primarily

in their spectrum, or the number of organisms against which they are

effective. Hence, the term is usually broad spectrum (Cipro, Augmentin,

Zosyn) or narrow spectrum (penicillin V). It is not clear to me if the

DAN examined your son before prescribing Cipro suspension. Cipro

suspension is only useful if the eardrum is open, usually because a tube

is present. If the eardrum was known to be ruptured, then Cipro would

probably be effective, but if the infection is present in both ears,

then Cipro suspension would not be adequate unless both were ruptured or

had tubes. Examination of the ears would be necessary before deciding

on treating with suspension alone. Here in California Cipro suspension

(the real stuff, Ciprodex) is about $100. I would hesitate to prescribe

that without being fairly sure it would work.

It is not cool to cause a child's ear to bleed, but at the same time it

is very hard to insert the otoscope far enough into the ear canal to

actually contact the eardrum, and if you did that you wouldn't be able

to see anyway, because the lens is ground to focus at about an inch out

from the tip of the speculum. Maybe there was some debris in the canal

that was disrupted by the speculum. Looking at kids' ears is definitely

a technique that takes practice, but a nurse practitioner in a

pediatrician's office should have the hang of it.

Augmentin is one of the antibiotics that has the best success rate for

bacterial sinusitis or otitis in kids. It does happen to fairly

unfriendly to the gut, but it gets the job done. If the DAN wanted to

avoid giving meds orally, it seems to me that a specific suggestion (eg

Rocephin, cefazolin) would have been a better strategy than 'find

someone to give him a shot'. In my opinion, once involved, a doctor has

a responsibility to stay involved until some solution is reached.

Another area of interest, unmentioned so far, is lab work. A CBC and C

reactive protein could be very useful in guaging the urgency of the

situation and helping you to decide accordingly.

Just some random thoughts.

Jim

________________________________

From:

[mailto: ] On Behalf Of Cochran

Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2007 7:35 AM

Subject: Re: [ ] Disappointed by " medical professionals "

yet again... OT and long sorry!

Wow, Tina your little guy has sure been through it. We had a similiar

experience here where she got a cold, then a sinus infection, got the

Zithromax and she got better and then on the second day off Zithromax

she spiked a low grade fever and the dr recommended Keflex (very, very

strong antibiotic).

We just rode it out giving extra C and probiotics and Golden Seal and

she got much better and the fever went away. She's eating and sleeping

fine now and all signs of the sinus infection are gone and have not

returned for about 3 weeks.

There was something going around here that was similiar where people

would get better and then it was like the virus doubled back and set

something else up. I'd be tempted just to wait.

If we do have to use a bigger antibiotic we use something like Cef (or

ph?) losporin, lighter than Amoxicillin and/or Augmentin. If her gut was

horrible we would do the shots but I understand they are quite painful

and can't see putting all of us through that. We just double or triple

the probiotics during the time she is on the antibiotic. Also using

Florastor is highly recommended during antibiotics.

[ ] Disappointed by " medical professionals " yet

again... OT and long sorry!

My ds started running a fever almost two weeks ago. I began treating

him with homeopathics immediately. I increased the Vitamin C to 3000

to 5000 mg per day, added mycellized A, astralgus, echinachea,

Virastop, colloidal silver, OLE, Sambucol, and tons of probiotics.

His fever ranged from 102-105 and 3 days into this his right eardrum

ruptured. We contacted his DAN who then prescribed Cipro drops for

his ears and told us to get him into his pediatrician if he didn't

improve in the next 24 hours.

We ended up in the peds office on day 5. My child had a fever of

105.2 in the office. We left with a Rx for Zithromax and a diagnosis

of double ear infection and pharyngitis. And, after numerous

warnings to the nurse practioner she made my son's already ruptured

and oozing eardrum bleed because she jammed the otoscope in too far

during the exam.

I felt so defeated. We were trying to avoid antibiotics at all cost

to save my child from anymore damage to his wounded gut. Anyway, he

started to get better right away. Two days after we finished the

antibiotic he spiked another fever 101.8!! I called the pediatrician

right away and she insisted we start our child on Augmentin. I

begged her for any other options and she claimed it was the right

treatment.

In a panic I called our DAN who refused to prescribe an alternative

but recommended we find someone to give our son an injection of

antibiotics because Augmentin would not be a good idea to give our

child. The closest doctor is 2 hours away and we would have to take

him 3 days in a row for the shots.

Here is where I need some guidance... my son's fever broke last

evening without giving him anything. He slept 12 hours last night,

AND technically the Zithromax should still be working in his system.

Any advice on what to do next? Is it possible that the extra vit C

is pulling viruses at this point? My husband and I are scared to

wait it out but even more afraid of giving him even more

antibiotics. I'm tired of being blown off by doctors!!!!

Sorry so long, any thoughts would be a huge blessing. I trust your

advice over our pediatrician's anyday.

Thanks so much

Tina (Luke's exhausted Mommy)

April 6, 2007

Jim, I always enjoy reading your viewpoint and clarifying medical issues. Just a

few points here:

It would be great if the drs could communicate with one another..but that rarely

happens. Most allopathic drs do not even consider what Dan! drs do to be

practicing medicine. They not only do not speak the same language they are often

not on the same planet. And because naturopathic drs do not practice

" traditional " medicine they do not often have hospital procedures so when your

child is sick it is often just the allopathic dr who you deal with. Can you see

how fragmented this is?

While I am sure Augmentin would clear up an ear infection there were some

studies implicating it's use in the etiology of Autism...so many parents are

reluctant to use it. And we had ear infections here...never received an rx for

Augmentin so I know it is not the only antibiotic that has success with clearing

up an ear infection. The point is if there is more than one antibiotic that is

effective why didn't the dr listen to the parent and prescribe something else?

Part of the problem with Augmentin is what you mentioned...it's hard on the

stomach and the majority of our kids already have trouble in this area...that is

what I meant by strong.

Thanks also for the explanation of how the nurse could have caused the ear

bleeding. But again, why didn't she explain this to the parents. It's simply a

matter of courtesy that often does not get extended to the parents of our kids.

It was interesting to read that running some bloodwork could have been

undertaken to determine the necessity for the antibiotic. We'll keep that in

mind.

[ ] Disappointed by " medical professionals " yet

again... OT and long sorry!

My ds started running a fever almost two weeks ago. I began treating

him with homeopathics immediately. I increased the Vitamin C to 3000

to 5000 mg per day, added mycellized A, astralgus, echinachea,

Virastop, colloidal silver, OLE, Sambucol, and tons of probiotics.

His fever ranged from 102-105 and 3 days into this his right eardrum

ruptured. We contacted his DAN who then prescribed Cipro drops for

his ears and told us to get him into his pediatrician if he didn't

improve in the next 24 hours.

We ended up in the peds office on day 5. My child had a fever of

105.2 in the office. We left with a Rx for Zithromax and a diagnosis

of double ear infection and pharyngitis. And, after numerous

warnings to the nurse practioner she made my son's already ruptured

and oozing eardrum bleed because she jammed the otoscope in too far

during the exam.

I felt so defeated. We were trying to avoid antibiotics at all cost

to save my child from anymore damage to his wounded gut. Anyway, he

started to get better right away. Two days after we finished the

antibiotic he spiked another fever 101.8!! I called the pediatrician

right away and she insisted we start our child on Augmentin. I

begged her for any other options and she claimed it was the right

treatment.

In a panic I called our DAN who refused to prescribe an alternative

but recommended we find someone to give our son an injection of

antibiotics because Augmentin would not be a good idea to give our

child. The closest doctor is 2 hours away and we would have to take

him 3 days in a row for the shots.

Here is where I need some guidance... my son's fever broke last

evening without giving him anything. He slept 12 hours last night,

AND technically the Zithromax should still be working in his system.

Any advice on what to do next? Is it possible that the extra vit C

is pulling viruses at this point? My husband and I are scared to

wait it out but even more afraid of giving him even more

antibiotics. I'm tired of being blown off by doctors!!!!

Sorry so long, any thoughts would be a huge blessing. I trust your

advice over our pediatrician's anyday.

Thanks so much

Tina (Luke's exhausted Mommy)

April 6, 2007

I'd love to clone you.

Pam

>

> I should know better by now than to jump into this, but it seems I

never

> learn. So many things to comment on here. Main thing, could the

DAN

> and the pediatrician not speak with one another? Where I live docs

talk

> to one another about mutual patients all the time. Antibiotics are

> indicated primarily for bacterial infections. The relative

incidence of

> viral v. bacterial sinusitis or otitis media varies among different

> parts of the country, but viruses usually account for half or more

cases

> of otitis, less than ten percent of sinusitis.

>

> Prescribing an antibiotic is predicated on a supposition of what is

> causing the infection. Strictly speaking, there is no such thing

as a

> 'strong' or 'mild' or 'weak' antibiotic. Antibiotics differ

primarily

> in their spectrum, or the number of organisms against which they are

> effective. Hence, the term is usually broad spectrum (Cipro,

Augmentin,

> Zosyn) or narrow spectrum (penicillin V). It is not clear to me if

the

> DAN examined your son before prescribing Cipro suspension. Cipro

> suspension is only useful if the eardrum is open, usually because a

tube

> is present. If the eardrum was known to be ruptured, then Cipro

would

> probably be effective, but if the infection is present in both ears,

> then Cipro suspension would not be adequate unless both were

ruptured or

> had tubes. Examination of the ears would be necessary before

deciding

> on treating with suspension alone. Here in California Cipro

suspension

> (the real stuff, Ciprodex) is about $100. I would hesitate to

prescribe

> that without being fairly sure it would work.

>

> It is not cool to cause a child's ear to bleed, but at the same

time it

> is very hard to insert the otoscope far enough into the ear canal to

> actually contact the eardrum, and if you did that you wouldn't be

able

> to see anyway, because the lens is ground to focus at about an inch

out

> from the tip of the speculum. Maybe there was some debris in the

canal

> that was disrupted by the speculum. Looking at kids' ears is

definitely

> a technique that takes practice, but a nurse practitioner in a

> pediatrician's office should have the hang of it.

>

> Augmentin is one of the antibiotics that has the best success rate

for

> bacterial sinusitis or otitis in kids. It does happen to fairly

> unfriendly to the gut, but it gets the job done. If the DAN wanted

to

> avoid giving meds orally, it seems to me that a specific suggestion

(eg

> Rocephin, cefazolin) would have been a better strategy than 'find

> someone to give him a shot'. In my opinion, once involved, a

doctor has

> a responsibility to stay involved until some solution is reached.

>

> Another area of interest, unmentioned so far, is lab work. A CBC

and C

> reactive protein could be very useful in guaging the urgency of the

> situation and helping you to decide accordingly.

>

> Just some random thoughts.

>

> Jim

>

> ________________________________

>

> From:

> [mailto: ] On Behalf Of Cochran

> Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2007 7:35 AM

>

> Subject: Re: [ ] Disappointed by " medical

professionals "

> yet again... OT and long sorry!

>

> Wow, Tina your little guy has sure been through it. We had a

similiar

> experience here where she got a cold, then a sinus infection, got

the

> Zithromax and she got better and then on the second day off

Zithromax

> she spiked a low grade fever and the dr recommended Keflex (very,

very

> strong antibiotic).

>

> We just rode it out giving extra C and probiotics and Golden Seal

and

> she got much better and the fever went away. She's eating and

sleeping

> fine now and all signs of the sinus infection are gone and have not

> returned for about 3 weeks.

>

> There was something going around here that was similiar where people

> would get better and then it was like the virus doubled back and set

> something else up. I'd be tempted just to wait.

>

> If we do have to use a bigger antibiotic we use something like Cef

(or

> ph?) losporin, lighter than Amoxicillin and/or Augmentin. If her

gut was

> horrible we would do the shots but I understand they are quite

painful

> and can't see putting all of us through that. We just double or

triple

> the probiotics during the time she is on the antibiotic. Also using

> Florastor is highly recommended during antibiotics.

>

> [ ] Disappointed by " medical professionals "

yet

> again... OT and long sorry!

>

> My ds started running a fever almost two weeks ago. I began

treating

> him with homeopathics immediately. I increased the Vitamin C to

3000

> to 5000 mg per day, added mycellized A, astralgus, echinachea,

> Virastop, colloidal silver, OLE, Sambucol, and tons of probiotics.

> His fever ranged from 102-105 and 3 days into this his right

eardrum

> ruptured. We contacted his DAN who then prescribed Cipro drops for

> his ears and told us to get him into his pediatrician if he didn't

> improve in the next 24 hours.

>

> We ended up in the peds office on day 5. My child had a fever of

> 105.2 in the office. We left with a Rx for Zithromax and a

diagnosis

> of double ear infection and pharyngitis. And, after numerous

> warnings to the nurse practioner she made my son's already ruptured

> and oozing eardrum bleed because she jammed the otoscope in too far

> during the exam.

>

> I felt so defeated. We were trying to avoid antibiotics at all cost

> to save my child from anymore damage to his wounded gut. Anyway, he

> started to get better right away. Two days after we finished the

> antibiotic he spiked another fever 101.8!! I called the

pediatrician

> right away and she insisted we start our child on Augmentin. I

> begged her for any other options and she claimed it was the right

> treatment.

>

> In a panic I called our DAN who refused to prescribe an alternative

> but recommended we find someone to give our son an injection of

> antibiotics because Augmentin would not be a good idea to give our

> child. The closest doctor is 2 hours away and we would have to take

> him 3 days in a row for the shots.

>

> Here is where I need some guidance... my son's fever broke last

> evening without giving him anything. He slept 12 hours last night,

> AND technically the Zithromax should still be working in his

system.

> Any advice on what to do next? Is it possible that the extra vit C

> is pulling viruses at this point? My husband and I are scared to

> wait it out but even more afraid of giving him even more

> antibiotics. I'm tired of being blown off by doctors!!!!

>

> Sorry so long, any thoughts would be a huge blessing. I trust your

> advice over our pediatrician's anyday.

>

> Thanks so much

> Tina (Luke's exhausted Mommy)

>

April 6, 2007

Jim- thank you for your thoughts.

I should know better by now than to jump into this, but it seems I

never learn. So many things to comment on here. Main thing, could

the DAN and the pediatrician not speak with one another?

* Apparently not. My DAN! lives 3 hours away from my son's doctor.

Who by the way has been out of town the entire time my son has been

sick. This is our third pediatrician in 4 1/2 years.

Where I live docs talk to one another about mutual patients all the

time. Antibiotics are indicated primarily for bacterial infections.

The relative incidence of viral v. bacterial sinusitis or otitis

media varies among different parts of the country, but viruses

usually account for half or more cases of otitis, less than ten

percent of sinusitis.

* Tell me about it. My son has had 6, yes 6 ruptured eardrums with a

history of chronic serous otitis. Most of his acute infections were

treated with homeopathics quite successfully as well as 2 out of the

6 ruptured TM's. The only reason I consented for an oral antibiotic

this time is because the fluid that was coming out of my child's ear

turned from clear to green even after 24 hours of using the Cipro HC

drops. I certainly don't have all of the answers but I spent my

entire career working in medicine. Specifically I worked with an ENT

up until a week before my ASD child was born.

Prescribing an antibiotic is predicated on a supposition of what is

causing the infection. Strictly speaking, there is no such thing

as a 'strong' or 'mild' or 'weak' antibiotic. Antibiotics differ

primarily in their spectrum, or the number of organisms against which

they are effective. Hence, the term is usually broad spectrum

(Cipro, Augmentin, Zosyn) or narrow spectrum (penicillin V). It is

not clear to me if the DAN examined your son before prescribing Cipro

suspension. Cipro suspension is only useful if the eardrum is open,

usually because a tube is present. If the eardrum was known to be

ruptured, then Cipro would probably be effective, but if the

infection is present in both ears, then Cipro suspension would not be

adequate unless both were ruptured or had tubes. Examination of the

ears would be necessary before deciding on treating with suspension

alone. Here in California Cipro suspension (the real stuff,

Ciprodex) is about $100. I would hesitate to prescribe

that without being fairly sure it would work.

*It costs $100 here in Ohio too.

It is not cool to cause a child's ear to bleed, but at the same time

it is very hard to insert the otoscope far enough into the ear canal

to actually contact the eardrum, and if you did that you wouldn't be

able to see anyway, because the lens is ground to focus at about an

inch out from the tip of the speculum. Maybe there was some debris

in the canal that was disrupted by the speculum. Looking at kids'

ears is definitely a technique that takes practice, but a nurse

practitioner in a pediatrician's office should have the hang of it.

*This is the second time that my son's ear has been further damaged

by the examining practioner. I will agree with you on one front...

the ENT that I spent 5 years working for always claimed that most

doctors weren't competent enough to do a thorough ear exam on

children. NO KIDDING!! I am not a doctor, just a former nurse

turned full time mommy who has NEVER injured my child's ear while

examining it with our own scope. And furthermore, when my child was

taken to the doctor his ear was visibly draining green fluid.

Considering he has never had tubes I'm going to go out on a limb and

guess there is a perforation. Whaddaya think?

Augmentin is one of the antibiotics that has the best success rate

for bacterial sinusitis or otitis in kids. It does happen to fairly

unfriendly to the gut, but it gets the job done. If the DAN wanted to

avoid giving meds orally, it seems to me that a specific suggestion

eg Rocephin, cefazolin) would have been a better strategy than 'find

someone to give him a shot'. In my opinion, once involved, a doctor

has a responsibility to stay involved until some solution is reached.

* I understand that. I used to phone in far too many Rx's for

Augmentin for otitis and sinusitis. I am a mom to an unvaccinated

ASD kid who was given Augmentin at 18 months of age for pneumonia.

This was his first antibiotic and his first illness ever. I believe

in my heart of hearts that Augmentin contributed to if not caused his

leaky gut. He had diarrhea on day one of the dose and it has

continued intermittently for over 3 years. So yes, I'm a little bit

paranoid.

Another area of interest, unmentioned so far, is lab work. A CBC and

C reactive protein could be very useful in guaging the urgency of the

situation and helping you to decide accordingly.

Just some random thoughts.

Jim

*Thank you sir for your sincerity. We didn't have labwork done this

time. As I stated before we do not have health insurance coverage.

The last time we had blood work drawn it cost us $375 for a liver and

kidney function. We do the best we can. One more thing, I am

disappointed in general with medical professionals. Doctors scare me

for the most part even the guys who I consider to be close friends of

mine.

Again, thanks for your time and feedback.

Blessings,

Tina

April 6, 2007