RE: DS hitting everyone around frequently

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 30/04/2007 10:16:23 GMT Standard Time, golsun@...

writes:

For some unknown reason, 7yo ds is beginning to hit

people even for no/slightest provocation (on teachers,

classmates,therapisclassmates,classmates,therapis<WBR>t

sometimes even kicking.

>>Thats bacteria or parasites in our house - and there is a full moon this

week..............

Mandi in UK

[Guest guest]

What new supplements have you started recently? Is he on probiotics? Spanking

his hands seems counterproductive hitting for hitting...

S S

Hi

For some unknown reason, 7yo ds is beginning to hit

people even for no/slightest provocation (on teachers,

classmates,therapists,parents,sibling) heads/tummy,

sometimes even kicking.

We tried isolate him - get him to sit facing the while

with " hands-ready " but this did not stop this behavior.

Can be hitting people like more than 20 times/day.

The only changes that we introduced was doing

Neurofeedback on F7 T3 points but the practitioner

says keep doing it & it will go away. It's been 3

weeks.

I also spank his hands immediately when he hit but

no joy with this too

Any views are welcome

Thanks

G

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[Guest guest]

No new supplements were added a couple of weeks ago - still on

Udo Super 8 probiotics (30 billion CFUs, 3 times/day) & today after

finishing that bottle, we moved to BioKult (6 capsules/day).

He has been on daily NoPhenol for 1-1.5 years. Nordic Naturals 3-6-9

(2 caps/day) started about 3-4 months back while he has always been

on his daily 3-in-1capsule Nature's Way Ca+Mg+Zn

Just about 3 days ago, we started him on Kirkman B-complex powder

(but the hitting started abt 2-3 weeks back which coincide with the

commencement of F7+T3 training points of Neurofeedback).

On 4/30/07, Shepard Salzer <_Shepard@...> wrote:

>

>

> What new supplements have you started recently? Is he on probiotics?

> Spanking his hands seems counterproductive hitting for hitting...

> S S

>

>

>

>

>

>

> Hi

>

> For some unknown reason, 7yo ds is beginning to hit

> people even for no/slightest provocation (on teachers,

> classmates,therapists,parents,sibling) heads/tummy,

> sometimes even kicking.

>

> We tried isolate him - get him to sit facing the while

> with " hands-ready " but this did not stop this behavior.

>

> Can be hitting people like more than 20 times/day.

>

> The only changes that we introduced was doing

> Neurofeedback on F7 T3 points but the practitioner

> says keep doing it & it will go away. It's been 3

> weeks.

>

> I also spank his hands immediately when he hit but

> no joy with this too

>

> Any views are welcome

>

> Thanks

> G

>

> _______________________________________________

> Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com

> The most personalized portal on the Web!

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Could just be that the kids in his class are being rough and it's

either upsetting him and making him act out or he thinks it's fun

and is imitating? Also, if you've started him on any psychoactive

meds or changed doses, this could change his behavior. Other people

here are much more versed than I am on the altmed, nutritional and

chelating remedies which can effect behavior, so I'll leave that

stuff to the veterans.

We personally found a link to teaching styles and environment which

effected our son somewhat, though some behavior was effected by

casein, too- but not all behavior was for dietary or " brain

chemistry " reasons. I don't insist that anything below will be

helpful to you, but just in case it is, these are things and bits of

info which helped us.

Koegel, Dunlap and Koegel (1988) was a study done by the Koegel

Institute in CA (San Diego I think?). They discovered that excessive

prompting performed in ABA type applications (and others, even the

kinder-gentler forms of therapy if they use prompting) could

actually increase or induce disruptive behaviors assocated with

autism. Haley and Camarata replicated the study on non-autistic

children with language delays and discovered the same outcome, that

even non-autistic children could become violent or self injure if

excessively prompted and if their cues to play were repeatedly

ignored.

Their recommendation was for therapists, teachers and parents to

increase the amount of time following the child's cues to play and

to reduce prompting (including aversives, punishments, etc.)

At two, our son, a " late-talker " and vaccine injured, was seeing

Early Intervention therapists. They prompted and prompted (generally

tried to get him to do what THEY wanted, whether with reward or mild

aversive), did pointed ignoring of " undesirable " behavior (what they

termed undesirable: in fact, he was very gentle and would try to get

them to play with his trains and cars or to display affection

towards him), and our son began to act out in a way that seemed

vastly disproportionate to how the therapists treated him. He began

kicking and throwing things, scratching his own face and pushing for

the first time. Putting him on GF/CF only modified this somewhat.

But was it a disproportionate reaction? To him, he was being

rejected (pushed off laps) and humiliated (ignored if he snubbed

their plastic bear puzzles in favor of his own games). We found the

above studies and tried to get the therapists to halt the discipline

and follow our son's play initiatives more, but they refused and it

got ugly, so we cancelled services very abruptly.

Professor Camarata (SP, PhD.) of Vanderbilt University's

language lab is a " genes-only " guy, but he sure has some progressive

ideas about therapy for language delay and autism. You could contact

the university (say you found one of his articles online- there are

dozens. Don't say you got recommendations from an altmed site) and

ask Camarata for some literature on the use of prompting and ways to

handle disruptive behaviors and what causes them. He might be able

to provide you with study citations, literature and guidance. You

can get his email from the school, too, and write to him, explaining

the problem. Just don't mention biomed or altmed treatments,

thimerosal or vaccines: he may be brilliant in his niche, but he's a

product of mainstream elite consensus about causation. He does

believe that autism could be an autoimmune disorder (though, in his

mind, this is unrelated to vaccines as far as I've read) and does

believe that food allergies trigger behavior, though he doesn't

believe the GF/CF is a blanket remedy or that all autistic children

have gluten or casein intollerance. There's some truth to that,

though I think he's inaccurate about how MANY vaccine injured kids

do well on GF/CF. We read spme of his articles, quotes and studies

and used a lot of this info.

A list of things that could be termed excessive prompting, aversive

prompting or modifying which sent our unusually peaceable, gentle,

loving son over the edge several times:

-Restraint

-Pointed ignoring (a group effort to ignore the child in punishment

for disruptive behaviors. One person simply turning their head and

not giving attention to undesirable behavior is different)

-Grabbing a child's face to force eye contact

-Withholding a desired object until the child performs a task, says

a word, etc..

-Too urgently offering a child a certain activity, nudging.

-Ignoring the child's cues to play a certain way or a certain game.

-Withholding affection if the child is in pain, feeling unwell, in

order to modify the child's " excessive expression " of pain.

And other stuff. When our son started kicking, we kissed his feet

and said " I know you're mad " with sympathy. It didn't work right

away, but it did eventually. We used restraint very, very

judiciously and only in the case that he was pushing his sister.

He'd get a sharp no for hurting anyone, but we understood that his

hearing is very sensitive and that this really torments him and

we're very careful and sparing of verbal reprimand. We began to

follow his cues to play almost religiously. We encouraged his tutors

(we hired teenagers to help with speech) to display affection

towards him. If he threw a soft ball instead of a hard object, we'd

applaud. That, of course, is catagorized as prompting: we just don't

do a lot of it and do a lot more cue following. We don't let the

kids " work it out on their own " if any child is being abusive or

violent. We rescue him immediately if he's being harmed by another

child, even if he seems to be playing along: his baseling,

underlying frustration over communication means that he's always

going to learn the wrong lesson from violent or punitive behavior.

Again, I have no idea if any of the above applies. It might be that

your son is reacting to something else entirely. I hope you find

some good answers.

>

> Hi

>

> For some unknown reason, 7yo ds is beginning to hit

> people even for no/slightest provocation (on teachers,

> classmates,therapists,parents,sibling) heads/tummy,

> sometimes even kicking.

>

> We tried isolate him - get him to sit facing the while

> with " hands-ready " but this did not stop this behavior.

>

> Can be hitting people like more than 20 times/day.

>

> The only changes that we introduced was doing

> Neurofeedback on F7 T3 points but the practitioner

> says keep doing it & it will go away. It's been 3

> weeks.

>

> I also spank his hands immediately when he hit but

> no joy with this too

>

>

> Any views are welcome

>

>

> Thanks

> G

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi,

Wow, thanks for the efforts you put in.

7yo ds was never on any psychoactive med/drugs.

I've been asking in the Autism-NF lists but several

practitioners replied asking me to make appointments

with their clinics - I'm based in Asia so can't do that.

None of them can tell me more than this list - that list

has many NF professionals/practitioners who are more

keen to clinch businesses.

My son was on gfcfsf for 2 years 3 months till last year

Jun/July when we put back milk/dairy. Still gluten free.

I don't think casein is the cause as this hitting behaviors

(including throwing spoon/fork, smashing Ikea plastic

chairs) developed only the last couple of weeks.

What you wrote below about prompting rings a bell :

he hates it when adults prompted him or try to correct

him while he's doing his task. He just hit his special ed

teacher, grabbed her glasses & throw it yesterday.

The Floortime/Speech therapist recommended me to a

psychologist for behavior management while a friend

recommended a local veteran ABA therapist for behavior

modification. Both of them are as just as costly, so which one

would you choose?

===================================

Could just be that the kids in his class are being rough and it's

either upsetting him and making him act out or he thinks it's fun

and is imitating? Also, if you've started him on any psychoactive

meds or changed doses, this could change his behavior. Other people

here are much more versed than I am on the altmed, nutritional and

chelating remedies which can effect behavior, so I'll leave that

stuff to the veterans.

We personally found a link to teaching styles and environment which

effected our son somewhat, though some behavior was effected by

casein, too- but not all behavior was for dietary or " brain

chemistry " reasons. I don't insist that anything below will be

helpful to you, but just in case it is, these are things and bits of

info which helped us.

Koegel, Dunlap and Koegel (1988) was a study done by the Koegel

Institute in CA (San Diego I think?). They discovered that excessive

prompting performed in ABA type applications (and others, even the

kinder-gentler forms of therapy if they use prompting) could

actually increase or induce disruptive behaviors assocated with

autism. Haley and Camarata replicated the study on non-autistic

children with language delays and discovered the same outcome, that

even non-autistic children could become violent or self injure if

excessively prompted and if their cues to play were repeatedly

ignored.

Their recommendation was for therapists, teachers and parents to

increase the amount of time following the child's cues to play and

to reduce prompting (including aversives, punishments, etc.)

At two, our son, a " late-talker " and vaccine injured, was seeing

Early Intervention therapists. They prompted and prompted (generally

tried to get him to do what THEY wanted, whether with reward or mild

aversive), did pointed ignoring of " undesirable " behavior (what they

termed undesirable: in fact, he was very gentle and would try to get

them to play with his trains and cars or to display affection

towards him), and our son began to act out in a way that seemed

vastly disproportionate to how the therapists treated him. He began

kicking and throwing things, scratching his own face and pushing for

the first time. Putting him on GF/CF only modified this somewhat.

But was it a disproportionate reaction? To him, he was being

rejected (pushed off laps) and humiliated (ignored if he snubbed

their plastic bear puzzles in favor of his own games). We found the

above studies and tried to get the therapists to halt the discipline

and follow our son's play initiatives more, but they refused and it

got ugly, so we cancelled services very abruptly.

Professor Camarata (SP, PhD.) of Vanderbilt University's

language lab is a " genes-only " guy, but he sure has some progressive

ideas about therapy for language delay and autism. You could contact

the university (say you found one of his articles online- there are

dozens. Don't say you got recommendations from an altmed site) and

ask Camarata for some literature on the use of prompting and ways to

handle disruptive behaviors and what causes them. He might be able

to provide you with study citations, literature and guidance. You

can get his email from the school, too, and write to him, explaining

the problem. Just don't mention biomed or altmed treatments,

thimerosal or vaccines: he may be brilliant in his niche, but he's a

product of mainstream elite consensus about causation. He does

believe that autism could be an autoimmune disorder (though, in his

mind, this is unrelated to vaccines as far as I've read) and does

believe that food allergies trigger behavior, though he doesn't

believe the GF/CF is a blanket remedy or that all autistic children

have gluten or casein intollerance. There's some truth to that,

though I think he's inaccurate about how MANY vaccine injured kids

do well on GF/CF. We read spme of his articles, quotes and studies

and used a lot of this info.

A list of things that could be termed excessive prompting, aversive

prompting or modifying which sent our unusually peaceable, gentle,

loving son over the edge several times:

-Restraint

-Pointed ignoring (a group effort to ignore the child in punishment

for disruptive behaviors. One person simply turning their head and

not giving attention to undesirable behavior is different)

-Grabbing a child's face to force eye contact

-Withholding a desired object until the child performs a task, says

a word, etc..

-Too urgently offering a child a certain activity, nudging.

-Ignoring the child's cues to play a certain way or a certain game.

-Withholding affection if the child is in pain, feeling unwell, in

order to modify the child's " excessive expression " of pain.

And other stuff. When our son started kicking, we kissed his feet

and said " I know you're mad " with sympathy. It didn't work right

away, but it did eventually. We used restraint very, very

judiciously and only in the case that he was pushing his sister.

He'd get a sharp no for hurting anyone, but we understood that his

hearing is very sensitive and that this really torments him and

we're very careful and sparing of verbal reprimand. We began to

follow his cues to play almost religiously. We encouraged his tutors

(we hired teenagers to help with speech) to display affection

towards him. If he threw a soft ball instead of a hard object, we'd

applaud. That, of course, is catagorized as prompting: we just don't

do a lot of it and do a lot more cue following. We don't let the

kids " work it out on their own " if any child is being abusive or

violent. We rescue him immediately if he's being harmed by another

child, even if he seems to be playing along: his baseling,

underlying frustration over communication means that he's always

going to learn the wrong lesson from violent or punitive behavior.

Again, I have no idea if any of the above applies. It might be that

your son is reacting to something else entirely. I hope you find

some good answers.

[Guest guest]

Hi

Just half an hour ago, ds got into an uncontrollable

hitting rage - it does NOT appear that he's trying to

get attention but rather each time after hitting, he felt

bad & cried. Occasionally he would grab & violently

throw items on the desks/table (photo album, books)

- this ordeal lasted for about an hour.

Each time he did that, I would order him with a firm voice

to pick up the items - he would pick them up seemingly

in a grudging manner & suddenly charge at me to hit me.

I recall about 4 years back, when there's another client

in the ST's office, he rushed in & was ordered out of the

room - he was very upset for several days & would cry

out aloud every now & then (probably he recalled the

incident?), displaying some aggression like pushing

/throwing away the milk bottle when we gave it to him.

I've stopped Neurofeedback for the last 50 hours.

[Guest guest]

Has he had an EEG? What home repairs or renovations have happened lately

(carpet cleaning, painting, spraying of anything? Is it warm enough where you

live to have windows open now? Have neighbors treated their lawns lately? Do

these episodes only occur in certain locations or when certain people are

around? Amy particular time of day more frequently than others? Has he had any

anesthetic/ dental work, etc lately? What were those specific recent

neurofeedback treatments supposed to work on?

S S

Hi

Just half an hour ago, ds got into an uncontrollable

hitting rage - it does NOT appear that he's trying to

get attention but rather each time after hitting, he felt

bad & cried. Occasionally he would grab & violently

throw items on the desks/table (photo album, books)

- this ordeal lasted for about an hour.

Each time he did that, I would order him with a firm voice

to pick up the items - he would pick them up seemingly

in a grudging manner & suddenly charge at me to hit me.

I recall about 4 years back, when there's another client

in the ST's office, he rushed in & was ordered out of the

room - he was very upset for several days & would cry

out aloud every now & then (probably he recalled the

incident?), displaying some aggression like pushing

/throwing away the milk bottle when we gave it to him.

I've stopped Neurofeedback for the last 50 hours.

_______________________________________________

Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com

The most personalized portal on the Web!

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

If EEG refers to the Neurofeedback (wires attached to head/earlobe

& go into a Brainmaster box which then has a USB to a computer),

then yes. He has been hitting his twin sister occasionally (for the last

3-4 years) whenever his twin sis talks but he does not hit adults - adult

hitting & this rage of throwing things only came about when we started

on F7/T3 points about 2-3 weeks ago.

Just 2 hours ago (ie about 72 hrs after stopping Neurofeedback, he still

have a bit of hitting people at home but it's obviously less frequent &

less violent. The Neurofeedbk is suppose to bring out the speech.

No repairs/renovations/spraying/special cleaning took place - we dont

have carpets on our ceramic tiles & only the domestic helper doing the

regular floor sweeping & mopping. No anesthetic/dental work done.

We live in a high-rise apartment with windows open all the time but ds

sleeps in an air-con room at night daily. It's tropical climate with room

temperature 29-32 Celcius - the aircon bedroom is 24-25 Celcius.

The episodes occur at school & home. Previously when he only hit

his twin sis upon hearing her voice, it's only at home. He never liked

it when his sister speaks. Hitting adults is a new development.

Someone suggested to me it's bacteria in the gut but he's been on

60-150 CFUs of probiotics daily. Unless it's a viral issue...

G

============================================

Has he had an EEG? What home repairs or renovations have

happened lately (carpet cleaning, painting, spraying of anything?

Is it warm enough where you live to have windows open now?

Have neighbors treated their lawns lately? Do these episodes

only occur in certain locations or when certain people are

around? Amy particular time of day more frequently than others?

Has he had any anesthetic/ dental work, etc lately? What were

those specific recent neurofeedback treatments supposed to work on?

S S

[Guest guest]

>

> Previously when he only hit

> his twin sis upon hearing her voice, it's only at home. He never liked

> it when his sister speaks.

Sound sensitivity can be yeast or adrenal fatigue.

> Someone suggested to me it's bacteria in the gut but he's been on

> 60-150 CFUs of probiotics daily.

That could easily not be enough to stop a bad bacterial infection.

Culturelle + Biocidin for 3 months + oil of oregano is what worked for

my son. It took a while.

> Unless it's a viral issue...

Are you giving antivirals? For n, viral symptoms were *not

aggression and rage, but the yeast that came from treating the viruses

could bring on aggression and rage.

My bet would be exposure to a chemical he doesn't tolerate, a food not

tolerated, bacteria, yeast, adrenals...

Nell

[Guest guest]

Comments interspersed.

S S

Hi ,

If EEG refers to the Neurofeedback (wires attached to head/earlobe

& go into a Brainmaster box which then has a USB to a computer),

then yes.

*I mean testing for seizure activity.

He has been hitting his twin sister occasionally (for the last

3-4 years) whenever his twin sis talks but he does not hit adults

* This is fairly common as kids are typically louder, higher pitched, and much

less predictable than adults.

- adult

hitting & this rage of throwing things only came about when we started

on F7/T3 points about 2-3 weeks ago.

Just 2 hours ago (ie about 72 hrs after stopping Neurofeedback, he still

have a bit of hitting people at home but it's obviously less frequent &

less violent. The Neurofeedbk is suppose to bring out the speech.

*Neurofeedback in general or those two points?

No repairs/renovations/spraying/special cleaning took place - we dont

have carpets on our ceramic tiles & only the domestic helper doing the

regular floor sweeping & mopping. No anesthetic/dental work done.

We live in a high-rise apartment with windows open all the time but ds

sleeps in an air-con room at night daily. It's tropical climate with room

temperature 29-32 Celcius - the aircon bedroom is 24-25 Celcius.

The episodes occur at school & home. Previously when he only hit

his twin sis upon hearing her voice, it's only at home. He never liked

it when his sister speaks. Hitting adults is a new development.

*On some level he knows that adults can make the neurofeedback on those points

stop?!

Someone suggested to me it's bacteria in the gut but he's been on

60-150 CFUs of probiotics daily. Unless it's a viral issue...

G

_______________________________________________

Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com

The most personalized portal on the Web!

[Guest guest]

> Someone suggested to me it's bacteria in the gut but he's been on

> 60-150 CFUs of probiotics daily. Unless it's a viral issue...

If I gave my son that much probiotic, he would be hitting people also.

Dana

[Guest guest]

Gol,

This sounds like bad bacteria to me.

I suggest that you do the following :

Greatly increase his pro-biotics

Significantly increase his Magnesium

Look into his Lithium levels

Stop trying to " teach " him for a while and spend some time " playing " with

him till he relaxes a bit.

Consider reading up on how Dana treats bad bacteria

Good Luck !

Neil

_____

From: [mailto: ]

On Behalf Of gol sun

Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2007 8:19 AM

Subject: Re: [ ] Re: DS hitting everyone around frequently

Hi

Just half an hour ago, ds got into an uncontrollable

hitting rage - it does NOT appear that he's trying to

get attention but rather each time after hitting, he felt

bad & cried. Occasionally he would grab & violently

throw items on the desks/table (photo album, books)

- this ordeal lasted for about an hour.

Each time he did that, I would order him with a firm voice

to pick up the items - he would pick them up seemingly

in a grudging manner & suddenly charge at me to hit me.

I recall about 4 years back, when there's another client

in the ST's office, he rushed in & was ordered out of the

room - he was very upset for several days & would cry

out aloud every now & then (probably he recalled the

incident?), displaying some aggression like pushing

/throwing away the milk bottle when we gave it to him.

I've stopped Neurofeedback for the last 50 hours.

[Guest guest]

Hi Nell,

Thanks for the inputs. BTW, I recall someone posted a website

about what to do for adrenals - I seem to lose it.

Hi ,

*I mean testing for seizure activity.

Nope, my son never did EEG (testing for seizure)

*Neurofeedback in general or those two points?

When he first started the very first/basic Neurofeedback

on C3/C4 points, we don't see any noticeable side effects,

nor hyper/aggression of any sort (we did about 28 sessions

of C3/C4). Then when he first started on F7/T3, he showed

hyper for the first 3-4 sessions which then subside but at

the same time he developed aggression/hitting people which

have not quite gone away yet - there's some reduction since

we stopped it 4 days ago but it's still there.

We haven't tried antivirals as we haven't train him to swallow

capsules yet (OLE is too bitter while we have no luck with the bottle

of Virastop I bought as he dislikes it when mixed into his juice).

G

[Guest guest]

>

> Hi Nell,

>

> Thanks for the inputs. BTW, I recall someone posted a website

> about what to do for adrenals - I seem to lose it.

I have this link on my site

http://www.drrind.com/adrensupport.asp

Dana