Guest guest Posted March 4, 2007 Report Share Posted March 4, 2007 Feeling brave eh Bhushana? You do realize you are wasting your time don't you? Chris [ ] Re: What is NCD? > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: lanellici > > I'm not dissing NCD because I haven't tried it. And I may try it. But > I'll tell you that reading descriptions like " completely safe " and > " all-natural " makes me very distrustful. > > <<<If we can only comment on what we have tried we better all just find something else to do. Who has tried everything? I didn't put that well. What I meant was, there are enough people whose opinions I respect who are seeing positive things with NCD that I'm unwilling to dismiss it. I don't trust the manufacturer's hype (which was my main point there) but I think it's entirely possible that it does something nobody understands yet. As for experience, yes, I feel a lot better recommending Andy's protocol because of how great it has been for n and me. The long list of good experiences from listmates matters too. My understanding of biochemistry is so thin that I just cannot take firm opinions on any of it -- I have to rely on Andy and a few others, and on the empirical evidence we compile here every day. > Again, these are Discussion boards if you don't like someone's opinion..don't listen to it. That's why I love those insurance/cave man ads where they spoof all the people who are sooooo easily offended. I get offended. So What? Me being offended doesn't stop anyone from having an opinion. Your opinion doesn't offend me. Nell Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 4, 2007 Report Share Posted March 4, 2007 > Boyd hayley did say that NCD is not a chelator until he spoke to Rik Deitsch and got more information. When was this? In mid-January Boyd Hayley spoke at a conference I was at and stated categorically that NCD was not going to chelate anything, based on his own testing. Except his language was a little more colourful. I'm not anti-NCD. We have used it and it was quite helpful. But I think it's important to be careful about being accurate when we attribute things to other people. best wishes Rene Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 4, 2007 Report Share Posted March 4, 2007 She's a distributor/seller of this MLM product. Brave lines the pockets, me thinks. Amy Farley <chris_farley@...> wrote: Feeling brave eh Bhushana? You do realize you are wasting your time don't you? Chris [ ] Re: What is NCD? > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: lanellici > > I'm not dissing NCD because I haven't tried it. And I may try it. But > I'll tell you that reading descriptions like " completely safe " and > " all-natural " makes me very distrustful. > > <<<If we can only comment on what we have tried we better all just find something else to do. Who has tried everything? I didn't put that well. What I meant was, there are enough people whose opinions I respect who are seeing positive things with NCD that I'm unwilling to dismiss it. I don't trust the manufacturer's hype (which was my main point there) but I think it's entirely possible that it does something nobody understands yet. As for experience, yes, I feel a lot better recommending Andy's protocol because of how great it has been for n and me. The long list of good experiences from listmates matters too. My understanding of biochemistry is so thin that I just cannot take firm opinions on any of it -- I have to rely on Andy and a few others, and on the empirical evidence we compile here every day. > Again, these are Discussion boards if you don't like someone's opinion..don't listen to it. That's why I love those insurance/cave man ads where they spoof all the people who are sooooo easily offended. I get offended. So What? Me being offended doesn't stop anyone from having an opinion. Your opinion doesn't offend me. Nell Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 4, 2007 Report Share Posted March 4, 2007 Aren't there list rules against this type of post when someone benefits financially? This is a list for using Andy's protocol and that protocol has saved my son's life. I don't want to be reading adds for products by persons who have a financial gain. I am so grateful to Andy and Moria and Annette and all others who have dedicated themselves to helping all of our children (and adults.) As a researcher, I appreciate Andy's approach to chelation as well as his dismissal of nonsense nonscience. Some may find it abrupt, but when a Princton professor of chemistry explains something over and over again, I suspect it's like trying to explain it to his freshman classes each year and it gets tiresome after a while. Thanks and Amy for your responses. Kathleen The world is not yet exhausted; let me see something tomorrow which I never saw before. - ************************************************************************* Re: [ ] Re: What is NCD? She's a distributor/seller of this MLM product. Brave lines the pockets, me thinks. Amy Farley <chris_farley@...> wrote: Feeling brave eh Bhushana? You do realize you are wasting your time don't you? Chris ----- Original Message ----- ________________________________________________________________________________\ ____ Cheap talk? Check out Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates. http://voice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 4, 2007 Report Share Posted March 4, 2007 This is an awesome list headed by awesome people, with the benefits of a brilliant doctor in Andy Cutler. No time for spammers and Im sure the mods of this list will respond appropriately. The author of that MLM post did same on another list and was told about same. I'm not buying into the NCD thing although I am sure there are many children who have done extremely well using that product. How or why I do not know. I also work in research and realize that much of what's put out to the public, especially via the internet, is simply the creative marketing of a few salesmen who have appealed to the pockets of some medical people. And desperate parents and people will buy anything with a good marketing plan and the right approach. Andy's science makes sense. The rest to me is just all a way for someone else to get rich. Amy Kathleen Anne <child_book_writer@...> wrote: Aren't there list rules against this type of post when someone benefits financially? This is a list for using Andy's protocol and that protocol has saved my son's life. I don't want to be reading adds for products by persons who have a financial gain. I am so grateful to Andy and Moria and Annette and all others who have dedicated themselves to helping all of our children (and adults.) As a researcher, I appreciate Andy's approach to chelation as well as his dismissal of nonsense nonscience. Some may find it abrupt, but when a Princton professor of chemistry explains something over and over again, I suspect it's like trying to explain it to his freshman classes each year and it gets tiresome after a while. Thanks and Amy for your responses. Kathleen The world is not yet exhausted; let me see something tomorrow which I never saw before. - ************************************************************************* Re: [ ] Re: What is NCD? She's a distributor/seller of this MLM product. Brave lines the pockets, me thinks. Amy Farley <chris_farley@...> wrote: Feeling brave eh Bhushana? You do realize you are wasting your time don't you? Chris ----- Original Message ----- __________________________________________________________ Cheap talk? Check out Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates. http://voice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 4, 2007 Report Share Posted March 4, 2007 We conducted a small study (35 participants, only 35 did no other treatment in the 8 week period) who did NCD and no other treatments added or subtracted for 8 weeks. Not one had an increased metal pull, but 6 did have positive improvements, 2 had mild regression and the rest did not notice much change. Jury is out as to what NCD does to help/hinder progress in our patients, but the prelim data from our clinic is it is not chelating, but can have a positive effect in about 20% of kids. Rick Neubrander > Feeling brave eh Bhushana? You do realize you are wasting your time don't you? > > Chris > > ----- Original Message ----- > > __________________________________________________________ > Cheap talk? > Check out Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates. > http://voice. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 4, 2007 Report Share Posted March 4, 2007 > > Hi Nell, > > Let me try this again after some sleep. I wasn't jumping on you. I heard this argument...the " if you haven't tried it you shouldn't say anything about it " a couple of weeks ago, can't remember what it was in reference to, and thought it was absurd and illogical then Oh, no worries . My thoughts about NCD are exactly like JT's -- I'm really really glad some people are seeing good stuff from it, and wonder what it's doing. I seem to be going through some digestive..uh...unpleasantness myself, so I may be giving it a try at some point. Nell Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 4, 2007 Report Share Posted March 4, 2007 > > We conducted a small study (35 participants, only 35 did no other > treatment in the 8 week period) who did NCD and no other treatments > added or subtracted for 8 weeks. Not one had an increased metal pull, > but 6 did have positive improvements, 2 had mild regression and the > rest did not notice much change. Did the six with positive improvements have anything in common? (I mean of the typical problems -- very bad guts, or allergies, or whatever) How about the two who regressed -- anything else in common? Nell Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 4, 2007 Report Share Posted March 4, 2007 This is the type of post that should go privately to Bhushana. It does nothing but provoke. Pam > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: lanellici > > > > I'm not dissing NCD because I haven't tried it. And I may try it. But > > I'll tell you that reading descriptions like " completely safe " and > > " all-natural " makes me very distrustful. > > > > <<<If we can only comment on what we have tried we better all just > find something else to do. Who has tried everything? > > I didn't put that well. What I meant was, there are enough people > whose opinions I respect who are seeing positive things with NCD that > I'm unwilling to dismiss it. I don't trust the manufacturer's hype > (which was my main point there) but I think it's entirely possible > that it does something nobody understands yet. > > As for experience, yes, I feel a lot better recommending Andy's > protocol because of how great it has been for n and me. The long > list of good experiences from listmates matters too. My understanding > of biochemistry is so thin that I just cannot take firm opinions on > any of it -- I have to rely on Andy and a few others, and on the > empirical evidence we compile here every day. > > > Again, these are Discussion boards if you don't like someone's > opinion..don't listen to it. That's why I love those insurance/cave > man ads where they spoof all the people who are sooooo easily > offended. I get offended. So What? Me being offended doesn't stop > anyone from having an opinion. > > Your opinion doesn't offend me. > > Nell > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 4, 2007 Report Share Posted March 4, 2007 This is not a list devoted to Andy's protocol. > Feeling brave eh Bhushana? You do realize you are wasting your time don't you? > > Chris > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________ > Cheap talk? > Check out Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates. > http://voice. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 5, 2007 Report Share Posted March 5, 2007 NOTE: I wrote this yesterday and really thought it was too much to send, preferring to leave people with some face after an argument where they are proven wrong. However, subsequent postings on NCD still insisting it chelates and that talked about people on A-M being fanatics and " emotional " and the refusal to post any concrete evidence that was being spoken about pushed me over the edge. Yep, the truth fanatics, imagine! " Thanks for weighing in on this, Rick and Rene. Awww...that pesky little thing.... truth!!! The bane of every unscrupulous salesperson. To the NCD people... anyone you tell/have told that NCD chelates metals....will be at best, subject to your delusions and, at worse, subject to your purposeful untruths to make money off people with sick children. For the 100th time, I have no problem with anyone talking about improvements they have had with the product, really glad for the kids who have improved, but do object to the fradulent claims that this product is a chelator or in any way helps any child excrete heavy metals. And your sleazy methods of contacting new people off this list to sell the product is really out of line and against list rules. It's pretty clear that NCD is not a chelator, but I don't go to the NCD list and post to people offline and tell them that....that's fanaticism and projection. And since when is it being emotional to insist that the product prove it's claim?, Unless I'm in some kind of an alternate universe, me thinks this is way ass-backwards. Shame! How do you dare deceive and attempt to take advantage of the unfortunate people like yourself with autistic kids? How could you? I guess I can understand other people who don't know this heartache..but I really don't get how someone with one of our kids can do this. SOD, really shouldn't say this as I still have no idea what it means, but seems fitting. And I even get most of Nell's acronyms and that isn't easy. Shouldn't it be SOYD or SUYD, or am I missing it entirely? " Last word on this from me unless someone else comes on saying NCD is a chelator. [ ] Re: What is NCD? We conducted a small study (35 participants, only 35 did no other treatment in the 8 week period) who did NCD and no other treatments added or subtracted for 8 weeks. Not one had an increased metal pull, but 6 did have positive improvements, 2 had mild regression and the rest did not notice much change. Jury is out as to what NCD does to help/hinder progress in our patients, but the prelim data from our clinic is it is not chelating, but can have a positive effect in about 20% of kids. Rick Neubrander > Feeling brave eh Bhushana? You do realize you are wasting your time don't you? > > Chris > > ----- Original Message ----- > > __________________________________________________________ > Cheap talk? > Check out Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates. > http://voice. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 5, 2007 Report Share Posted March 5, 2007 TWO children to regress is two, too many. Thank you, Dr. N. for stepping in here. I spent some time on one of your evening chats and truly appreciate the kindness and wisdom of your staff. Tremendous! Amy Mueller, MA rlneub <Rick@...> wrote: We conducted a small study (35 participants, only 35 did no other treatment in the 8 week period) who did NCD and no other treatments added or subtracted for 8 weeks. Not one had an increased metal pull, but 6 did have positive improvements, 2 had mild regression and the rest did not notice much change. Jury is out as to what NCD does to help/hinder progress in our patients, but the prelim data from our clinic is it is not chelating, but can have a positive effect in about 20% of kids. Rick Neubrander > Feeling brave eh Bhushana? You do realize you are wasting your time don't you? > > Chris > > ----- Original Message ----- > > __________________________________________________________ > Cheap talk? > Check out Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates. > http://voice. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 5, 2007 Report Share Posted March 5, 2007 Nope, not me! Not unless I see data. Abigail Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 5, 2007 Report Share Posted March 5, 2007 ..............and the " data " will be reported from people who are on the MLM chain of NCD. Inappropriate at best. A. Abigail Floe <acfloe@...> wrote: Nope, not me! Not unless I see data. Abigail Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 5, 2007 Report Share Posted March 5, 2007 Rick isn't the doctor. He's the doctor's brother. I think implying that NCD isn't appropriate to try because two children regressed is wrong. I have yet to hear of an intervention that hasn't caused some kids to regress. Kids regress on ABA. Kids regress when we take away ABA. Kids regress on calcium. Kids regress when we take away calcium. Kids regress on ALA...you get my point. I think the fact that grandparents/parents of children who have benefitted from NCD also happened to become dealers to save themselves money shouldn't detract from what they have to say. We ALL have something invested here. I, for example, have been telling people for a long time that the Cutler protocol is the safest. I would have a LOT to lose if this turned out to be untrue. Certainly this is going to cloud my judgement to some degree. None of us, whether we pride ourselves on it or not, is objective. We're all subjective with something at stake. I don't find it helpful to make suggestions that the only reason a person who loves an autistic child might praise a product is to line their pockets, just the same way I don't find it helpful to praise a product based only on the manufacturer/company's claims. The study from the Neubranders is helpful, but only preliminary, as Rick states. Helping 20% of kids isn't such a bad record in the autism world. The study doesn't prove anything though: it suggests some trends. Parent reports will also suggest trends. That is about all we have to go on for the most part when trying to make safe decisions for our kids. And, if we expect stressed, busy, and often fragile people to share on a public list what has worked/not worked for them, then we must treat their experiences with respect. Anita > > TWO children to regress is two, too many. > Thank you, Dr. N. for stepping in here. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 5, 2007 Report Share Posted March 5, 2007 The two that regressed had serious gut issues. Nothing specific in the responders that we can determine. Rick Neubrander > > > > We conducted a small study (35 participants, only 35 did no other > > treatment in the 8 week period) who did NCD and no other treatments > > added or subtracted for 8 weeks. Not one had an increased metal pull, > > but 6 did have positive improvements, 2 had mild regression and the > > rest did not notice much change. > > Did the six with positive improvements have anything in common? (I > mean of the typical problems -- very bad guts, or allergies, or > whatever) How about the two who regressed -- anything else in common? > > Nell > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 5, 2007 Report Share Posted March 5, 2007 , I think you are being a little unfair to the parents. Most people are taking the company's claims that it is a chelator. They are not trying to deceive. The concept of a " cage " that traps the bad metals and is " safer " than the other chelators is appealing. Then if they are in the group that actually has benefit they become believers. I do not believe they become deceivers at least intentionally. NCD has helped some of our kids, thus it is not a sham treatment. Just because NO ONE knows the exact mechanism of how it works is really not the issue. For those where it works, more power to them. My whole intention is to let people know that for the majority, little to no benefits, but if in the minority where it works, go for it. Also, be aware, NCD can have side effects as any other treatment. Lastly, the claims made are based on too small a sample for significance. At best the results can be labeled preliminary. Rick Neubrander (Not the doctor, doctor's brother) > > Feeling brave eh Bhushana? You do realize you are wasting your time > don't you? > > > > Chris > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > __________________________________________________________ > > Cheap talk? > > Check out Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates. > > http://voice. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 5, 2007 Report Share Posted March 5, 2007 Rick (not the dr, the dr's brother) I appreciate you weighing in on this and yes, I agree, there are those that are trying to deceive (company, some representatives) and then there are others that have just believed the company and I think it's important to distinguish the two. Again for the 101st time, noone ever denied some kids get benefits from NCD, noone. I have said this repeatedly and congratulated people on this board when they have reported good results. Despite the claims made on here that NCD is perfectly safe, I think you're right that it's important to know that any supplement can cause problems. At issue is whether it is a chelator. If Andy and Dr. Boyd Hayley and your little study can give any clues, we can be pretty safe in assuming it is not. If you had had one child who pulled anything in your study, you better believe the NCD Company would have claimed it was their product that caused the metal pull, no doubt about that. Since the company or the Dr that the company pays has not done any research, which he could do, easily, we can only go with what we have. [ ] Re: What is NCD? , I think you are being a little unfair to the parents. Most people are taking the company's claims that it is a chelator. They are not trying to deceive. The concept of a " cage " that traps the bad metals and is " safer " than the other chelators is appealing. Then if they are in the group that actually has benefit they become believers. I do not believe they become deceivers at least intentionally. NCD has helped some of our kids, thus it is not a sham treatment. Just because NO ONE knows the exact mechanism of how it works is really not the issue. For those where it works, more power to them. My whole intention is to let people know that for the majority, little to no benefits, but if in the minority where it works, go for it. Also, be aware, NCD can have side effects as any other treatment. Lastly, the claims made are based on too small a sample for significance. At best the results can be labeled preliminary. Rick Neubrander (Not the doctor, doctor's brother) > > Feeling brave eh Bhushana? You do realize you are wasting your time > don't you? > > > > Chris > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > __________________________________________________________ > > Cheap talk? > > Check out Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates. > > http://voice. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 5, 2007 Report Share Posted March 5, 2007 My apologies for my ignorance. Lesson learned. Big one. And when you watch a verbal, huggy kissy child regress into a tantrum throwing, head banging, hand flapping, whaling, unable to be reasoned with individual, please then stand there and tell me not to say something. The ONLY intervention that this child had was NCD. I saw this with my own two eyes. This child not only regressed but was far worse even than upon diagnosis. He has never regained function or recovered. It's been a year. Please, MLM folks, post away. Only trying to caution those who believe everything they read on the internet. Lots of sheep out here.... A. Anita <mysuperteach@...> wrote: Rick isn't the doctor. He's the doctor's brother. I think implying that NCD isn't appropriate to try because two children regressed is wrong. I have yet to hear of an intervention that hasn't caused some kids to regress. Kids regress on ABA. Kids regress when we take away ABA. Kids regress on calcium. Kids regress when we take away calcium. Kids regress on ALA...you get my point. I think the fact that grandparents/parents of children who have benefitted from NCD also happened to become dealers to save themselves money shouldn't detract from what they have to say. We ALL have something invested here. I, for example, have been telling people for a long time that the Cutler protocol is the safest. I would have a LOT to lose if this turned out to be untrue. Certainly this is going to cloud my judgement to some degree. None of us, whether we pride ourselves on it or not, is objective. We're all subjective with something at stake. I don't find it helpful to make suggestions that the only reason a person who loves an autistic child might praise a product is to line their pockets, just the same way I don't find it helpful to praise a product based only on the manufacturer/company's claims. The study from the Neubranders is helpful, but only preliminary, as Rick states. Helping 20% of kids isn't such a bad record in the autism world. The study doesn't prove anything though: it suggests some trends. Parent reports will also suggest trends. That is about all we have to go on for the most part when trying to make safe decisions for our kids. And, if we expect stressed, busy, and often fragile people to share on a public list what has worked/not worked for them, then we must treat their experiences with respect. Anita > > TWO children to regress is two, too many. > Thank you, Dr. N. for stepping in here. > > --------------------------------- Looking for earth-friendly autos? Browse Top Cars by " Green Rating " at Autos' Green Center. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 5, 2007 Report Share Posted March 5, 2007 Thank you, Anita, for a very good post - clarity, honesty, and courtesy. No snarkiness. :-) Rene > And, if we expect stressed, busy, and often > fragile people to share on a public list what has worked/not worked > for them, then we must treat their experiences with respect. > > Anita > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 5, 2007 Report Share Posted March 5, 2007 I'm not pro or anti NCD or anything else at this point in time (until I've tried it), but seeing as there are different people claiming different test results (the Waiora statement seemed quite valid), the question usually comes down to the fact that there will ALways be someone opposing. The testing may have been done differently, or eve skewed to result in a " no show " of heavy metals. Is there a way to find out? I don't know, but the skeptic in me ALways uspects " behind the scenes " possibilities of who has investments in which products, etc. Sometimes it's also a matter of being " mind blind " . I know nothing about Dr. Boyd and I also don't have an opinion on Waiora -- yet. All I know is that, among many things I suffer with, MCS (Multiple Chemical Sensitivities) being one -- it is at least, after years of fighting, finally accepted by Social Security as an actual illness. For decades there were (and still are MANY) doctors, even with the testing that proves otherwise, that will STILL insist it's a " psychological " disorder. It's more than infuriating. So, the point I'm getting at is that, regardless of what we try, yes, we do our best to make intelligent decisions, especially when we're dealing with kids, and ALways have to keep in mind that horribly real factor that what's good for one may not be good for the other. This is true in virtually every treatment for most illnesses and conditions. It makes it incredibly difficult and stressful in making these decisions and probably the best way, once a decision is made, is to initially take it SLOW to see what happens and whether or not it can be tolerated. Detoxing is tough, but necessary. : Donna > > > Boyd hayley did say that NCD is not a chelator until he spoke to Rik > Deitsch and got more information. > > When was this? In mid-January Boyd Hayley spoke at a conference I was > at and stated categorically that NCD was not going to chelate anything, > based on his own testing. Except his language was a little more > colourful. > > I'm not anti-NCD. We have used it and it was quite helpful. But I > think it's important to be careful about being accurate when we > attribute things to other people. > > best wishes > Rene > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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