Re: Why would an enzyme STOP working?

[Guest guest]

>

> My son has been on Creon for about a month and it worked for a while

> and now seems to have stopped working. His stools are back to being

> undigested. Why would this happen?

What foods are undigested? For my son, there were several foods he

could not eat and enzymes did not help with those intolerances. He

required OTHER interventions to eliminate the intolerances to those foods.

Dana

[Guest guest]

Dana,

In general, what shows up in his stool are vegetable fibers, intact

vegetable chunks, and occasional fruit chunks (depends on the fruit or

vegetable & how fibrous it is). We rotate all his foods, and I can

identify which day's food he's pooping by looking at his stools. These

fibers & chunks didn't show up when the enzyme seemed to be working.

I don't think this is a symptom of allergy/intolerance. He has

innumerable allergies and only tolerates a small number of foods. But

the foods we do feed him are ones that he has no reactions or minor

reactions to. His reactions tend towards eczema and hives rather than

digestive.

Suzanne

> >

> > My son has been on Creon for about a month and it worked for a

while

> > and now seems to have stopped working. His stools are back to being

> > undigested. Why would this happen?

>

>

> What foods are undigested? For my son, there were several foods he

> could not eat and enzymes did not help with those intolerances. He

> required OTHER interventions to eliminate the intolerances to those

foods.

>

> Dana

>

[Guest guest]

My son is also on Creon and two thoughts come to mind. The first is,

has he recently gained weight? We have to increase the dose after

significant weight gains. Secondly, do you give magnesium or any acid

reducing meds at the same time as the Creon? If the stomach becomes

too alkaline the Creon will start to break down too soon and perform

as well.

I hope you get this figured out soon!

R.

>

> My son has been on Creon for about a month and it worked for a while

> and now seems to have stopped working. His stools are back to being

> undigested. Why would this happen?

>

> We can't really try many other enzymes - he has allergies to

> ingredients in most of them.

>

> Thanks,

> Suzanne

>

[Guest guest]

> In general, what shows up in his stool are vegetable fibers, intact

> vegetable chunks, and occasional fruit chunks (depends on the fruit or

> vegetable & how fibrous it is).

Which fruits/veggies is it?

> I don't think this is a symptom of allergy/intolerance.

For my son, enzymes addressed his allergy/intolerance issues. If he

still did not tolerate a food, it was because of an entirely different

issue. His problem with fruits/veggies was primarily related to

inability to convert carotene/lutein. So I had to remove anything

orange or green, and a few reds and yellows. Enzymes did not help

with those foods, but chelation plus a few supplements [especially

selenium] eliminated that problem.

Dana

[Guest guest]

Dana,

The pattern we see is that the fibrous veggies and fruits, regardless

of color, leave visible fibers in his stool, while the soft and or

pureed veggies/fruits do not. Since I would not expect soft/pureed

foods to leave visible fibers, I think it's a general problem

breaking down the fibers rather than specific vegetables.

Here are the vegetables/fruits we usually see fibers from:

asparagus

broccoli

spinach

brussel sprouts

cabbage

spaghetti squash

blueberry (skins)

Here are the soft or pureed veggies/fruits we don't see fibers from:

butternut squash

zucchini

cranberry

plum

watermelon

peach

papaya

He tolerates all these foods pretty well from an allergy/intolerance

perspective - no rashes or other things that would indicate they're

triggering his normal atopic reactions, or the typical gut problems

that point to his IgG reactions (diarrhea, gas, tummy pain).

How did you determine your son had an inability to convert

carotene/lutein? Was this from a test, or elimination/observation?

How did selenium help? He tests quite low in selenium, but none of

our DAN practitioners has ever addressed it.

Thanks much!

Suzanne

> > In general, what shows up in his stool are vegetable fibers,

intact

> > vegetable chunks, and occasional fruit chunks (depends on the

fruit or

> > vegetable & how fibrous it is).

>

>

> Which fruits/veggies is it?

>

>

> > I don't think this is a symptom of allergy/intolerance.

>

>

> For my son, enzymes addressed his allergy/intolerance issues. If he

> still did not tolerate a food, it was because of an entirely

different

> issue. His problem with fruits/veggies was primarily related to

> inability to convert carotene/lutein. So I had to remove anything

> orange or green, and a few reds and yellows. Enzymes did not help

> with those foods, but chelation plus a few supplements [especially

> selenium] eliminated that problem.

>

> Dana

>

[Guest guest]

Hmm, we had just increased magnesium in the time frame that this

occurred - that may be a clue. Testing had shown he was extremely

magnesium deficient. We added TD magnesium (he already got a small

amount of mag in his pre-breakfast morning and late-afternoon multi-

mineral supp). The TD mag cream is given at bedtime, and he gets his

Creon with meals. No acid reducers. He is slightly alkaline.

He's had no weight gain, just the same old struggle with keeping

weight on. He eats huge volumes of vegetables (no kidding, 5 large

mostly-veggie meals a day, totalling several cups of veggies, plus 2

fruit meals, for a 30 lb kid). I have to assume his absorption is

awful.

Given this, I wonder what might help? I can't imagine giving

magnesium at a time that's more distant from meals than at bedtime.

Is there anything we might do to help with the alkalinity?

Any other thoughts?

Thanks !

Suzanne

> >

> > My son has been on Creon for about a month and it worked for a

while

> > and now seems to have stopped working. His stools are back to

being

> > undigested. Why would this happen?

> >

> > We can't really try many other enzymes - he has allergies to

> > ingredients in most of them.

> >

> > Thanks,

> > Suzanne

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Suzanne,

I don't think the TD magnesium cream would have a negative impact.

For my son I can give the enzymes at the beginning of the meal and

then at the end of the meal (around 30-45 minutes later) I give the

magnesium with no negative impact on the enzymes. If you are giving

the multi away from the meals it probably won't hurt the enzymes

either.

How does he take the enzymes - swallow the capsules or do you open

them up and mix them in something? Before my son could swallow the

capsules we were told to mix them in apple sauce as it had the

correct ph to get the enzyme through the stomach and into the

intestines before they started working. If the volume of food he is

eating increased, you might need to increase the number of enzymes.

For my son, certain meals always require more enzymes than others.

One other thought, enzymes are very heat sensitive - could they have

been exposed to high temperatures after you started using them?

Their effectiveness will be dimished quickly if they are

overheated. I have heard of other kids who's enzymes just stop

working and they are switched to a different brand. There are

several prescription brands on the market and a different one might

work better for him. There used to be a prescription one on the

market that had bicarbonate in the enzyme - bicarbonate is supposed

to be helpful in managing ph.

Good Luck,

R.

>

> Hmm, we had just increased magnesium in the time frame that this

> occurred - that may be a clue. Testing had shown he was extremely

> magnesium deficient. We added TD magnesium (he already got a small

> amount of mag in his pre-breakfast morning and late-afternoon

multi-

> mineral supp). The TD mag cream is given at bedtime, and he gets

his

> Creon with meals. No acid reducers. He is slightly alkaline.

>

> He's had no weight gain, just the same old struggle with keeping

> weight on. He eats huge volumes of vegetables (no kidding, 5 large

> mostly-veggie meals a day, totalling several cups of veggies, plus

2

> fruit meals, for a 30 lb kid). I have to assume his absorption is

> awful.

>

> Given this, I wonder what might help? I can't imagine giving

> magnesium at a time that's more distant from meals than at

bedtime.

> Is there anything we might do to help with the alkalinity?

> Any other thoughts?

>

> Thanks !

> Suzanne

>

> > >

>

[Guest guest]

We open the capsule and he swallows the granules on a spoon, followed

by water, then eats his meal. He can't take the capsules - soy

allergy. We don't mix the granules in his food, as his foods are

chunky and he chews them, the product info says not to chew. He eats

very few purees anymore (pureeing the food is too time-consuming for

mommy & daddy who cook 3 hours every day as it is). I wonder - could

straight oral administration cause it to break down before it reaches

the stomach?

He eats mostly veggies and meats, a few fruits (we don't give Creon

with fruits, he eats fruits away from his meat & vegie meals). Don't

know the Ph of those foods. His Creon dose is already pretty high -

2.5 to 5 mg./meal, for 5 meals a day.

What puzzles me is why it worked then stopped. We did not change dose

or administration method. Perhaps we could have gotten a bad batch,

damaged by heat. We just started a new batch, and I'm not sure how

it's working, most of his poops are at school (try asking for a daily

poop report on your IEP!). Maybe the weekend will tell.

I suppose we could try Ultrase. His allergies severely limit which

enzymes we can use. In fact, he does have a pork allergy, but seems

to tolerate Creon. What other Rx enzymes do you know of, and do you

know anything about the foods they're derived from? Our DAN seems

familiar only with Creon and Ultrase.

Suzanne

> >

> > Hmm, we had just increased magnesium in the time frame that this

> > occurred - that may be a clue. Testing had shown he was

extremely

> > magnesium deficient. We added TD magnesium (he already got a

small

> > amount of mag in his pre-breakfast morning and late-afternoon

> multi-

> > mineral supp). The TD mag cream is given at bedtime, and he gets

> his

> > Creon with meals. No acid reducers. He is slightly alkaline.

> >

> > He's had no weight gain, just the same old struggle with keeping

> > weight on. He eats huge volumes of vegetables (no kidding, 5

large

> > mostly-veggie meals a day, totalling several cups of veggies,

plus

> 2

> > fruit meals, for a 30 lb kid). I have to assume his absorption is

> > awful.

> >

> > Given this, I wonder what might help? I can't imagine giving

> > magnesium at a time that's more distant from meals than at

> bedtime.

> > Is there anything we might do to help with the alkalinity?

> > Any other thoughts?

> >

> > Thanks !

> > Suzanne

> >

> > > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

> Dana,

> The pattern we see is that the fibrous veggies and fruits, regardless

> of color, leave visible fibers in his stool,

No-Fenol is good for digesting fibers, does it help if you give that?

> How did you determine your son had an inability to convert

> carotene/lutein? Was this from a test, or elimination/observation?

Observation. If my son ate those foods, he was giggly, spacy, hyper,

no attention at all, lots of hand flapping, etc.

> How did selenium help?

When I added it [after chelation], my son was able to eat those foods

without problems.

Dana

[Guest guest]

The info that came from the manufacturer states that the Creon beads

should be " placed on foods having a ph greater than 5.5 " if they

aren't swallowed in the capsule. Otherwise the coating on the beads

may dissolve " resulting in early release of enzymes, irritation of

oral mucosa, and/or loss of enzyme activity " . You're right they

shouldn't be chewed. I wonder if you could mix them in a little bit

of chunky applesauce?

The only other prescription brand I know of is Pancrease.

PDR Drug information for:

Pancrease MT Capsules

Manufacturer: McNeil Consumer

Prescribing Information

DESCRIPTION

PANCREASE® MT (pancrelipase) Capsules are a pancreatic enzyme

supplement for oral administration. Pancrelipase, the active

ingredient in PANCREASE MT Capsules, is a natural product harvested

by extraction from the pancreas of the hog. Pancrelipase powder is a

slightly brown amorphous powder with a faint characteristic odor. It

is partly soluble in water and practically insoluble in alcohol or

ether.

I will say that if my son has more than typical mucus moving through

his gut, it will throw his enzymes off. This is because mucus is a

protein and I'm only dosing on food he eats not on how much other

gunk may be moving through his gut. So, anytime he has a cold or

allergies are bad the enzymes won't be as effective. Also, as we

work on gut healing sometimes we move more " build up " through the

gut and it has the same effect - more stuff to process but not

enough enzymes to do it effectively.

I hope you can find a solution soon!

R.

>

> We open the capsule and he swallows the granules on a spoon,

followed

> by water, then eats his meal. He can't take the capsules - soy

> allergy. We don't mix the granules in his food, as his foods are

> chunky and he chews them, the product info says not to chew. He

eats

> very few purees anymore (pureeing the food is too time-consuming

for

> mommy & daddy who cook 3 hours every day as it is). I wonder -

could

> straight oral administration cause it to break down before it

reaches

> the stomach?

>

> He eats mostly veggies and meats, a few fruits (we don't give

Creon

> with fruits, he eats fruits away from his meat & vegie meals).

Don't

> know the Ph of those foods. His Creon dose is already pretty

high -

> 2.5 to 5 mg./meal, for 5 meals a day.

>

> What puzzles me is why it worked then stopped. We did not change

dose

> or administration method. Perhaps we could have gotten a bad

batch,

> damaged by heat. We just started a new batch, and I'm not sure how

> it's working, most of his poops are at school (try asking for a

daily

> poop report on your IEP!). Maybe the weekend will tell.

>

> I suppose we could try Ultrase. His allergies severely limit which

> enzymes we can use. In fact, he does have a pork allergy, but

seems

> to tolerate Creon. What other Rx enzymes do you know of, and do

you

> know anything about the foods they're derived from? Our DAN seems

> familiar only with Creon and Ultrase.

>

> Suzanne

>

>

>

> > >

> > > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

> No-Fenol is good for digesting fibers, does it help if you give

that?

We have avoided the Houston enzymes, because of allergies. He seems

to tolerate Creon even with a pork allergy. He is very allergic, we

are limited in what we can use.

He is low on selenium and we plan to try it soon.

Suzanne

> > Dana,

> > The pattern we see is that the fibrous veggies and fruits,

regardless

> > of color, leave visible fibers in his stool,

>

>

> No-Fenol is good for digesting fibers, does it help if you give

that?

>

>

> > How did you determine your son had an inability to convert

> > carotene/lutein? Was this from a test, or elimination/observation?

>

>

> Observation. If my son ate those foods, he was giggly, spacy,

hyper,

> no attention at all, lots of hand flapping, etc.

>

>

> > How did selenium help?

>

>

> When I added it [after chelation], my son was able to eat those

foods

> without problems.

>

> Dana

>

[Guest guest]

I forgot about the food ph. His diet is very limited (each day two

veggies, one meat, one oil and one fruit - papaya, peach, plum,

blueberry, watermelon - all rotated). He eats fruits alone, not with

meat meals to help his gut Ph. So giving with puree is not really an

option.

I wonder why it worked for several weeks though? We gave it this way

from the start.

I don't think he has a lot of mucous, though his food allergies are

acting up (he's probably developed an allergy to something in his

diet we haven't identified). His reactions tend to be skin reactions,

not gut reactions. He's on a very strict allergen-avoiding SCD diet,

and his diet doesn't have much mucous-producing food in it.

We tried an OTC pork pancreas extract, which did exactly nothing.

We've increased the dose this week to a full capsule at each meal (5

mg) to see if it helps, and we have a DAN appt. Thursday, though I

don't think she'll know what to do either.

I'm not sure what to do. It was so wonderful at the beginning when he

digested his food for a few weeks, his cognition was so much better.

So were the poops, producing a close second in mommy satisfaction.

Suzanne

> >

> > We open the capsule and he swallows the granules on a spoon,

> followed

> > by water, then eats his meal. He can't take the capsules - soy

> > allergy. We don't mix the granules in his food, as his foods are

> > chunky and he chews them, the product info says not to chew. He

> eats

> > very few purees anymore (pureeing the food is too time-consuming

> for

> > mommy & daddy who cook 3 hours every day as it is). I wonder -

> could

> > straight oral administration cause it to break down before it

> reaches

> > the stomach?

> >

> > He eats mostly veggies and meats, a few fruits (we don't give

> Creon

> > with fruits, he eats fruits away from his meat & vegie meals).

> Don't

> > know the Ph of those foods. His Creon dose is already pretty

> high -

> > 2.5 to 5 mg./meal, for 5 meals a day.

> >

> > What puzzles me is why it worked then stopped. We did not change

> dose

> > or administration method. Perhaps we could have gotten a bad

> batch,

> > damaged by heat. We just started a new batch, and I'm not sure

how

> > it's working, most of his poops are at school (try asking for a

> daily

> > poop report on your IEP!). Maybe the weekend will tell.

> >

> > I suppose we could try Ultrase. His allergies severely limit

which

> > enzymes we can use. In fact, he does have a pork allergy, but

> seems

> > to tolerate Creon. What other Rx enzymes do you know of, and do

> you

> > know anything about the foods they're derived from? Our DAN

seems

> > familiar only with Creon and Ultrase.

> >

> > Suzanne

> >

> >

> >

> > > >

> > > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>