Re: Fish oil supplementation can be harmful (was: Fish Oils in PDD Nos children)

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

----------------------------

“The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times.” --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

http://www.drrons.com/cod-liver-oil.htm

----------------------------

>

January 4, 2006

YES! Suze you said it better than I could have (and I was trying to think

of a way).

We do use ProEFA here; and we do supplement based on the results of an

essential fatty acid test Dr. Cave ran on my daughter; and we don't even use

as MUCH as she suggested we use b/c I am so afraid of the issues you mention

and that is even THOUGH we already have frontloaded all of the anti-oxidants

(Vit E, CoQ10, Brainchild mins, etc).

On the childrens apraxia list where many many moms only give their kids fish

oil and do no other biomed, people seemed always to get great initial

results with fish oil, then get some slippage - and then respoind by adding

MORE fish oil which worked temporarily - and then the child might plateau or

slip again. If lipid peroxidation is occurring in the body, the body is

also using lots of extra antioxidants to combat that. Most of these kids

(and adults) cant spare any antioxidants.

It strikes me always as a big Catch 22 that so many of these kids need more

EFAs but if given incorrectly they can exacerbate the proble,s. Too many of

the docs (even the friendly DANs) seem to hand them out very liberally ie

without caution.

Take care,

Josie

Fish oil supplementation can be harmful (was: Fish Oils

in PDD Nos children)

>-----Original Message-----

>From:

>[mailto: ]On Behalf Of haleh niazmand

I am going to try ProEFA and this time I am going to commit for a

>long time. I am convinced that it will help.

Hi Haleh,

Unfortunately fish oil supplementation, especially long-term, can be very

damaging to the body. Fish oil contains long chain omega 3s that increase

lipid peroxidation in the body. In other words, it oxidizes and causes a

free radical cascade that can lead to a host of diseases. If the body is

deficient in these long chain omega 3's (EPA and DHA) then you will

definitely see improvements in the short term (in this case speech

improvements it seems), but note that the long-term damage of too much EFA

can be very serious. Also, when taking EFAs it's critical to supplement with

antioxidants to prevent the peroxidation caused by the EFAs. The vit. E

fraction in most fish oil products is only enough to protect the product

from oxidation in_the_bottle, NOT in your body! So, a comprehensive vit. E

product should be used (not isolated alpha tocopherol). There is no single

comprehensive vit. E product on the market that contains all the tocopherols

and tocotrienols that I'm aware of. (Maybe someone else on this board knows

of one?) But you could get Unique E, which is all the tocopherols, and pair

it up with a comprehensive tocotrienol product. Also, Red virgin palm oil

contains the most comprehensive vitamin E profile of any food that I'm aware

of. So that would be one *food* source of the E complex. But it probably

wouldn't be enough to prevent oxidation from supplemental fish oil or other

EFA supplements.

It is always best to try to maintain a proper EFA balance in the DIET before

adding supplemental EFA. The ratio should be as low as possible (6/3). Fish

oil and other omega 3's are given in order to prevent the pro-inflammatory

effects of too much omega 6, so if the diet is properly balanced to begin

with, then supplemental omega 3's may not be required. Things that typically

cause a pro-inflammatory EFA imbalance are vegetable and seed oils often

used in cooking, most packaged foods, seeds, nuts and grains.

If you really want to supplement with omega 3's then I think high vitamin

CLO is far and above the absolute best choice. This is where I get mine:

A few studies have found that, while EFA supplementation raises lipid

peroxides even_in_the_presence_of_sufficient_vitamin_E(!), CLO

supplementation actually LOWERS lipid peroxides! I think this is due to

antioxidative effects of vitamins A and D. Add to that, most Americans (and

probably most folks living in industrialized nations) are deficient in

vitamin D and generally have a low A intake, which furthers the cause of CLO

supplementation in place of fish oil supplementation.

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

----------------------------

" The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times. " --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

----------------------------

January 4, 2006

Hi, I was told by a doctor that if you are going to take Omega oils as a

supplement, make sure you get them from flax seeds (linseed).

Logic behind this was that Omega from fish oils is made from the larger fish

like cod, tuna and mackeral at the top of the food chain and they will be loaded

with pesticides etc. which have washed into the ocean, so, instead of giving

yourself a good supplement, you are loading your body with more harmful

chemicals.

Regards,

Sylvia,

Gladstone...Q..Australia

January 4, 2006

>-----Original Message-----

>From:

>[mailto: ]On Behalf Of Sylvia

>Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2006 9:09 PM

>

>Hi, I was told by a doctor that if you are going to take Omega

>oils as a supplement, make sure you get them from flax seeds (linseed).

>

Ugh! This is a prime example of why it's important NOT to listen to most

(but not all) medical doctors in regards to nutrition. It's simply an area

that don't have background or expertise in, by and large. Although it seems

many of the DAN! docs have a generally better knowledge of nutrition.

A. The plant-based omega 3 and 6 fatty acids in flax seeds need to be

converted to longer chain PUFA (polyunsatured fatty acids, a.k.a. EFA's) in

order to have the biological activity that is the reason for supplementing

them in the first place. MANY people cannot make this conversion effectively

due to a myriad of reasons including genetic heritage (Inuit and some folks

from Scandanavian countries and other areas of Northern Europe don't have

the delta 6 desaturase enzyme that is *required* to convert the short chain

PUFAs in plants to the long chain PUFAs found in fish body and liver oils).

Thus, it's a crap shoot as to whether any given person will get the

appropriate omega 3 benefit from flax seeds or oil.

B. Flaxseeds are estrogenic, and thus should be consumed in moderation, if

at all.

Therefore, I think regular flax seed supplementation, especially if it's

done for the omega 3 content, is a really bad idea. Having said that, using

flax seeds on occassion is fine. Ground flax seeds are great for loose

stools, for instance. But the seeds should be stored carefully to avoid

peroxidation. I always keep a jar in the freezer and occassionally grind

some up and add it to my dogs' food when one of them is having bowel issues.

>Logic behind this was that Omega from fish oils is made from the

>larger fish like cod, tuna and mackeral at the top of the food

>chain and they will be loaded with pesticides etc. which have

>washed into the ocean, so, instead of giving yourself a good

>supplement, you are loading your body with more harmful chemicals.

The method of processing most fish and cod liver oils REMOVES the

contaminants! Many fish oils are moleculary distilled, which is a process

that removes the contaminants. As for CLO, the alkali refining (a

chelation-type process), bleaching (which is a chelation type of processing

using clay or other natural absorbents), and deoderization (a new process

that replaces molecular distillation and allows the oil to be heated at

alower temp.) all remove the various contaminants. Thus, when you take a

quality fish oil or CLO product that has been carefully processed (not all

of them are!) you effectively won't be consuming any contaminants. Eating

big FISH on the other hand will expose you to contaminants. But the fish

itself and the processed oil from the fish should not be conflated.

So, the doc's logic is not based on facts.

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

----------------------------

" The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times. " --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

----------------------------

January 4, 2006

>-----Original Message-----

>From:

>[mailto: ]On Behalf Of Josie Lecraw

>

>YES! Suze you said it better than I could have (and I was trying to think

>of a way).

Maybe because I've had a lot of practice :-) It seems like the new fad is to

recommend fish oil as if it were candy without much concern for the

long-term effects. This is also the case in alternative pet health circles.

I've just spent several days discussing this issue on one of my pet health

lists. So, I'm just repeating stuff I wrote a few days ago. LOL.

>

>We do use ProEFA here; and we do supplement based on the results of an

>essential fatty acid test Dr. Cave ran on my daughter; and we

>don't even use

>as MUCH as she suggested we use b/c I am so afraid of the issues

>you mention

>and that is even THOUGH we already have frontloaded all of the

>anti-oxidants

>(Vit E, CoQ10, Brainchild mins, etc).

Testing first seems like a very wise approach to this. Good for you for

loading her up with protective factors too!

BTW, have you considered using CLO instead of fish oil? As I mentioned in a

previous post, it actually LOWERS peroxidation, whereas other PUFA

supplemation *increases* it even when sufficient vit. E is present (which, I

guess, would make it INsufficient ;-)

>On the childrens apraxia list where many many moms only give their

>kids fish

>oil and do no other biomed, people seemed always to get great initial

>results with fish oil, then get some slippage - and then respoind by adding

>MORE fish oil which worked temporarily - and then the child might

>plateau or

>slip again.

Yeh, I was just chatting with a friend online (who is one of the best

nutrition researchers I've come across) and he mentioned that in a

meta-analysis done on long-term omega 3 supplementation, ALL but one

follow-up study showed that the effectiveness DECLINED over time. Those poor

kids being loaded up with PUFAs!

If lipid peroxidation is occurring in the body, the body is

>also using lots of extra antioxidants to combat that. Most of these kids

>(and adults) cant spare any antioxidants.

Right, which means that, if they use up their stores combating all the

oxidized PUFAs, they will probably suffer some type of inflammatory conditon

as a result of the oxidized PUFAs. Or any type of disease that damaged DNA

can cause. Have you warned them about this? They probably have no idea that

they might be seriously harming their children in an attempt to help them.

>

>It strikes me always as a big Catch 22 that so many of these kids need more

>EFAs but if given incorrectly they can exacerbate the proble,s.

>Too many of

>the docs (even the friendly DANs) seem to hand them out very liberally ie

>without caution.

Somebody should lecture on this at the next DAN! conference. This is crazy.

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

----------------------------

" The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times. " --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

http://www.westonaprice.org/basicnutrition/clarifications.html

----------------------------

January 5, 2006

" Suze Fisher " wrote:

> BTW, have you considered using CLO instead of fish oil? As I

> mentioned in a previous post, it actually LOWERS peroxidation,

> whereas other PUFA supplemation *increases* it even when sufficient

> vit. E is present (which, I guess, would make it INsufficient ;-)

Hi Suze,

Thanks for the wealth of info! A few questions:

1. What is the amount (in a range) of CLO is advised? Do you still

need the vitamin E? and if so, what ratio?

2. If vitamins A levels are normal, could one become vitamin A toxic?

3. I have not tested EFA levels in my older son, but whenever he is

off the EFA's the back of his arms get bumpy...within a week or two of

being off them. Would you still reccommend the CLO for someone with a

noticable deficiency?

Thanks again... appreciate getting the cutting edge info here!

PS our cardiologist also approved of the fish oils.

Robyn

January 5, 2006

Suze:

RE: Fish oil supplementation can be harmful (was: Fish

Oils in PDD Nos children)

>-----Original Message-----

>From:

>[mailto: ]On Behalf Of Josie Lecraw

>

Testing first seems like a very wise approach to this. Good for you for

loading her up with protective factors too!

BTW, have you considered using CLO instead of fish oil? As I mentioned in a

previous post, it actually LOWERS peroxidation, whereas other PUFA

supplemation *increases* it even when sufficient vit. E is present (which, I

guess, would make it INsufficient ;-)

-----------------Yes, I agree. Actually we give CLO too, Nordic Naturals ½

tsp per day (she is a 4/02 baby and weighs about 39 pounds) as well as

N-Acetyl-Carnitine. The tricky part of this was my daughter’s EFA test

showed levels VERY low of EPA, DHA and all the other good stuff. Dr. Cave,

with whom I have been generally very very pleased, wanted me to supplement

the CLO plus about the equivalent of FIVE capsules of ProEFA every day. I

just couldn’t do it, couldn’t find anything anywhere that would lead me to

believe this would help her. We go back to Dr. Cave next week actually for

an annual visit and I will revisit this subject as well.

Yeh, I was just chatting with a friend online (who is one of the best

nutrition researchers I've come across) and he mentioned that in a

meta-analysis done on long-term omega 3 supplementation, ALL but one

follow-up study showed that the effectiveness DECLINED over time. Those poor

kids being loaded up with PUFAs!

------------Yes indeed. I have seen those studies too.

If lipid peroxidation is occurring in the body, the body is

>also using lots of extra antioxidants to combat that. Most of these kids

>(and adults) cant spare any antioxidants.

Right, which means that, if they use up their stores combating all the

oxidized PUFAs, they will probably suffer some type of inflammatory conditon

as a result of the oxidized PUFAs. Or any type of disease that damaged DNA

can cause. Have you warned them about this? They probably have no idea that

they might be seriously harming their children in an attempt to help them.

-----------Have I WARNED them about this? Oh my, this would be funny if it

weren’t so sad. There were several of us over a period of months and months

(and months) that tried to sound the alarm. I have two friends in

particular who are dogged researchers and one even compiled an entire EFA

bibliography (which I will gladly share if you want a copy just let me

know). There is no delicate way to say this so I will simply have to say

it, but the moderator there, who is the author of a book on late talking,

made it very difficult for such information to a) come to light and STAY

in the light. There are many many children for whom a diagnosis of apraxia

(or even apraxic symptoms) are a first introduction to biomed issues. They

start taking fish oil and see an initial surge, and then perhaps take more

fish oil to keep the gains. Many of those families will never move beyond

the fish oil, even to add something simple like a probiotic. Those of us

who realize – through testing of course – that our children share an awful

lot in common biomedically with autistic children (in many cases just a

matter of severity/degree; you see this on CK2 list all the time too when

the ‘NT’ sibling of an ASD child has tests that reveal many of the same

deficiencies – a dodged bullet), were simply not made to feel welcome. I

stayed on that board and fielded questions as long as I could, but I

ultimately did not and do not have the time to fight that sort of uphill

battle. These days barely have the time to leep on top of my own daughter’s

supplements! One of my friends checks in periodically and tries to dispel

myths as they arise.

>

>It strikes me always as a big Catch 22 that so many of these kids need more

>EFAs but if given incorrectly they can exacerbate the proble,s.

>Too many of

>the docs (even the friendly DANs) seem to hand them out very liberally ie

>without caution.

Somebody should lecture on this at the next DAN! conference. This is crazy.

---------But the question still remains and I am perplexed by it as well,

HOW do you raise the fatty acid levels in these kids? Many of them have

disturbed fatty acid transport (which can be a symptom of mercury toxicity)

and many of them when tested have VERY low levels of things they really do

need. How do we get it in them? This is both a theoretical and a personal

dilemma for me and for others I know.

Cheers,

Josie

_____

January 5, 2006

Greetings Suze,

Pardon my " interuption " here, but what is your take on Krill oil? Heard

good/bad/indifferent stuff about it?

Thanks for your input!

Re: Fish oil supplementation can be harmful (was: Fish Oils

in PDD Nos children)

" Suze Fisher " wrote:

> BTW, have you considered using CLO instead of fish oil? As I

> mentioned in a previous post, it actually LOWERS peroxidation,

> whereas other PUFA supplemation *increases* it even when sufficient

> vit. E is present (which, I guess, would make it INsufficient ;-)

Hi Suze,

Thanks for the wealth of info! A few questions:

1. What is the amount (in a range) of CLO is advised? Do you still

need the vitamin E? and if so, what ratio?

2. If vitamins A levels are normal, could one become vitamin A toxic?

3. I have not tested EFA levels in my older son, but whenever he is

off the EFA's the back of his arms get bumpy...within a week or two of

being off them. Would you still reccommend the CLO for someone with a

noticable deficiency?

Thanks again... appreciate getting the cutting edge info here!

PS our cardiologist also approved of the fish oils.

Robyn

January 5, 2006

OK, I checked out Weston A. Price Foundtion's site and found the

following recommendations:

Vitamin A, Vitamin D and Cod Liver Oil: Some Clarifications

My 11 year old son gets around 4000 IUs of vitamin A from his mulit

(Kirkman'sspectrum Complete) so if I supplement around 6000 IU's of

CLO then he would be getting around the 10,000IU's recommended CLO.

1. Just wondering if this will address his EFA deficiency and 2. if I

need to rethink his multi to one that does not have vit. A.

Robyn

January 6, 2006

>-----Original Message-----

>From:

>[mailto: ]On Behalf Of happydogmoon

>

> " Suze Fisher " wrote:

>> BTW, have you considered using CLO instead of fish oil? As I

>> mentioned in a previous post, it actually LOWERS peroxidation,

>> whereas other PUFA supplemation *increases* it even when sufficient

>> vit. E is present (which, I guess, would make it INsufficient ;-)

>

>Hi Suze,

>

>Thanks for the wealth of info! A few questions:

>

>1. What is the amount (in a range) of CLO is advised? Do you still

>need the vitamin E? and if so, what ratio?

The amount advised very much depends on the individual's condition. For

instance, I was on 2 TBsp. of the high vitamin CLO as advised by my ND

because I have low thyroid function. That is equivalent to 70,000 IU vitamin

A daily. But for someone with normal thyroid function, that dose would not

be necessary. For an ASD kid, I honestly have no idea what dose of CLO is

advised, but I recall that there's an ASD researcher who uses CLO in her

program and the dosages were being discussed on the Autism and Mercury list

a year or so ago when I was reading that list. Dana was on the list then,

and perhaps still is, so maybe she has an idea of a ballpark recommended

dose for ASD kids?

>

>2. If vitamins A levels are normal, could one become vitamin A toxic?

The problem is that there is no such thing as " normal " vitamin A levels. The

RDA for vitamin A is a joke. The healthy primitives that Price studied ALL

consumed at_least 10x the amount of vitamins A and D than did Americans

almost a century ago, and we consume even LESS vits. A and D now. Further,

the amount needed is really an individual thing. A few other issues to note

are:

1. Vitamin A taken in emulsified, water-miscible and solid forms is 10X(!)

more toxic than oil-based vitamin A (as found in CLO)!

4. The amount of natural oil-based vitamin A, as found in CLO, that is

required to induce toxicity is *enormous*. But it also varies between

individuals.

5. CLO is MUCH safter than taking isolated vitamin A because vitamin D

ameliorates the toxicity of vit A (and vit. A ameliorates the toxicity of

vitamin D, at least in renal disease, but probably on a per se basis as

well - although I haven't read that anywhere). But, from the research my

friend has done on this (for an article on bone fractures and vitamin A,

which will be published in the next " Wise Traditions " - the WAPF's quarterly

journal), the ratio of A to D should be fairly low. However, most CLO on the

market has a high ratio, as well as having *synthetic* vitamins A and D. So

these are a few reasons to be very careful in choosing a CLO product.

5. The warnings about vitamin A toxicity are grossly overblown for the

above-mentioned reasons.

Re vitamin E, yes, definitely still take vitamin E.

>

>3. I have not tested EFA levels in my older son, but whenever he is

>off the EFA's the back of his arms get bumpy...within a week or two of

>being off them. Would you still reccommend the CLO for someone with a

>noticable deficiency?

Absolutely. CLO contains EPA and DHA just like fish oil does, although the

amounts vary. Fish oil almost always has EPA and DHA added in after it's

been processed to maintain a standardized high amount. CLO doesn't normally

contain standardized amounts of EPA and DHA. So it usually has less of these

fatty acids than fish oil. It's possible you might want to try a combo if

the CLO doesn't seem to be addressing the EFA deficiency.

But, as I said in a previous post, the goal really should be to balance the

DIET as much as possible so that the need for supplemental EFAs is either

eliminated or reduced. The only reason that fish oil works against

inflammatory conditions (including skin conditions) is because the diet is

pro-inflammatory to begin with, and the fatty acids in fish oil reverse the

pro-inflammatory effect. So if the EFAs in the diet can be better balanced,

then inflammation can be reduced or eliminated thus reducing the need to

counter it with fish oil.

Having said that, I realize it's hard to balance the diet often, and it's

mostly done with guesswork as no one want's to do spreadsheets on every

morsel they eat. And most of us are fairly likely to be deficient in omega

3s. But we are also likely to be deficient in both vits A and D, and since

these vitamins are only toxic in extreme amounts and since taken together

they are much safer than if taken in isolation, and since CLO also LOWERS

lipid peroxidation, I think CLO is a much better choice than fish oil as a

whole.

>

>Thanks again... appreciate getting the cutting edge info here!

>

>PS our cardiologist also approved of the fish oils.

Yeh but I wonder if he knows that the long-term efficacy of fish oil in

treating heart disease *diminishes*, not quite as much as the long-term

efficacy of statins diminishes, but it still diminishes.

I'm horribly behind in my emails but hope to catch up in the next few days

with this list. I'll respond to your follow-up post about the WAPF CLO

recommendations and the kirkman multi you are giving (which unfortunately

contains synthetic vitamin A - hopefully not the emulsified, water-miscible

or solid form), at that time.

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

----------------------------

“The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times.” --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

---------------------------->

January 6, 2006

>-----Original Message-----

>From:

>[mailto: ]On Behalf Of fantsea@...

>

>Greetings Suze,

>

>Pardon my " interuption " here, but what is your take on Krill oil?

>Heard good/bad/indifferent stuff about it?

Looks a lot better than fish oil to me because of the ORAC value

(antioxidant capacity), the lower levels of EPA and DHA, plus the

phospholipids. Maybe not the right choice for someone who really needs a

larger dose of EPA and DHA, but I think that's a minority of folks.

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

----------------------------

" The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times. " --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

---------------------------->

January 6, 2006

>-----Original Message-----

>From:

>[mailto: ]On Behalf Of Josie Lecraw

>

>Testing first seems like a very wise approach to this. Good for you for

>loading her up with protective factors too!

>

>BTW, have you considered using CLO instead of fish oil? As I mentioned in a

>previous post, it actually LOWERS peroxidation, whereas other PUFA

>supplemation *increases* it even when sufficient vit. E is present

>(which, I

>guess, would make it INsufficient ;-)

>

>-----------------Yes, I agree. Actually we give CLO too, Nordic Naturals ½

>tsp per day

Josie,

Do you know if Nordic Naturals contains synthetic or natural vitamins A and

D? Most CLO contains synthetic vits, but I'm hoping to locate a non high

vitamin CLO that doesn't, which I can recommend for those who need more EPA

and DHA than the high vit CLO contains. Although I think only a small

minority would need that much omega 3. It's mostly those with a very high

concentration of omega 6's in the diet that require a high dose of omega 3's

to counter it, or those with certain health conditions that require more

omega 3.

(she is a 4/02 baby and weighs about 39 pounds) as well as

>N-Acetyl-Carnitine. The tricky part of this was my daughter’s EFA test

>showed levels VERY low of EPA, DHA and all the other good stuff. Dr. Cave,

>with whom I have been generally very very pleased, wanted me to supplement

>the CLO plus about the equivalent of FIVE capsules of ProEFA every day.

Where on earth did he get this dosing?? The *maximum* standard therapeutic

dose is 1000 mgs per 10 lbs. body weight. At least that's what it was over

the past several years, but maybe it's changed recently?. His rec of ProEFA

alone is above this, but then if you add the CLO then it's even more! And

mind you, 1000 mgs/10 lbs. of body weight is an extraodinarily high amount

to begin with and it's only for *therapeutic* purposes - when there is a

condition that requires it. Not for your average reasonably healthy person.

>

>Right, which means that, if they use up their stores combating all the

>oxidized PUFAs, they will probably suffer some type of

>inflammatory conditon

>as a result of the oxidized PUFAs. Or any type of disease that damaged DNA

>can cause. Have you warned them about this? They probably have no idea that

>they might be seriously harming their children in an attempt to help them.

>

>-----------Have I WARNED them about this? Oh my, this would be funny if it

>weren’t so sad. There were several of us over a period of months

>and months

>(and months) that tried to sound the alarm.

Oh geez, I totally sympathize. :-(

I have two friends in

>particular who are dogged researchers and one even compiled an entire EFA

>bibliography (which I will gladly share if you want a copy just let me

>know).

Yes, I'd LOVE to have a copy. Thanks!

There is no delicate way to say this so I will simply have to say

>it, but the moderator there, who is the author of a book on late talking,

>made it very difficult for such information to a) come to light and STAY

>in the light.

There are many many children for whom a diagnosis of apraxia

>(or even apraxic symptoms) are a first introduction to biomed issues. They

>start taking fish oil and see an initial surge, and then perhaps take more

>fish oil to keep the gains. Many of those families will never move beyond

>the fish oil, even to add something simple like a probiotic.

Uh boy....:-(

>

>>

>>It strikes me always as a big Catch 22 that so many of these kids

>need more

>>EFAs but if given incorrectly they can exacerbate the proble,s.

>>Too many of

>>the docs (even the friendly DANs) seem to hand them out very liberally ie

>>without caution.

>

>Somebody should lecture on this at the next DAN! conference. This is crazy.

>

>---------But the question still remains and I am perplexed by it as well,

>HOW do you raise the fatty acid levels in these kids? Many of them have

>disturbed fatty acid transport (which can be a symptom of mercury toxicity)

>and many of them when tested have VERY low levels of things they really do

>need. How do we get it in them? This is both a theoretical and a personal

>dilemma for me and for others I know.

What level of EFAs does your doc consider to be too low? And what is he

using to determine the levels? I mean, what is his source of info that he

bases his definiton of " too low " on?

Further, IF the EFA level truly needs to be raised, but the child has

" disturbed fatty acid transport " , then it doesn't seem to make much sense to

just load on MORE EFAs. That seems akin to saturating a diabetic with sugar.

Wouldn't it make more sense to *correct* the falty fatty acid transport

problems rather than loading up on a substance that is actually toxic when

overdone? And which won't affect the fatty acid transport system other than

perhaps overwhelming it? I dunno, I'm just tossing out thoughts here because

I'm not familiar with the disturbed mechanism of fatty acid transport in ASD

or apraxic kids.

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

----------------------------

“The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times.” --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

(http://www.nordicnaturals.com/images/pdfs/whyNNRetail0705.pdf)

----------------------------

>

January 7, 2006

RE: Fish oil supplementation can be harmful (was: Fish

Oils in PDD Nos children)

Suze:

------------This is a good question about the Nordic Naturals. I've assumed

not synthetic but as I revisit the website I see that they don't actually

say this specifically. I'm posting the link here for you

http://www.nordicnaturals.com/direct/whynordicnaturals.asp . Also note they

have a big portion of their website devoted to fish oils and pets (which I

have gathered is another interest of yours)

Josie,

Do you know if Nordic Naturals contains synthetic or natural vitamins A and

D? Most CLO contains synthetic vits, but I'm hoping to locate a non high

vitamin CLO that doesn't, which I can recommend for those who need more EPA

and DHA than the high vit CLO contains. Although I think only a small

minority would need that much omega 3. It's mostly those with a very high

concentration of omega 6's in the diet that require a high dose of omega 3's

to counter it, or those with certain health conditions that require more

omega 3.

------------We had a huge and really helpful panel run on my daughter last

year. It's from Metametrix lab and included plasma amino acid analysis, RBC

essential and toxic elements, lipid peroxides, CoenzymeQ10 plus vitamin

panel - serum (which included Vitamin E, A and betacarotene) and a plasma

fatty acid test that included 39 different values including things like all

the markers for Omega 3, all the markers for Omega 6, the marker for Omega

9, monounsaturated, saturated, odd chain etc etc the ratio of AA/EPA. At

the same time we had a lot of other testing done (hair elements, CBC,

comprehensive stool, liver function, darkfield microscopy, plasma sulfate,

and even some bioset.

When it came to the reference ranges for the fatty acids, my daughter showed

no problem with lipid peroxides but had REALLY low DHA and EPA. How low?

The range for DHA was 51-310 and divided into 5 color coded patient

quintiles. My daughter's was 77, marked red and in the first quintile. The

range for EPA was 9-245 (also color-coded and divided into patient

quintiles). My daughter's value was 5, not even at reference.

Our doctor, Cave (also the author of that great book 'What Your

doctor Might not Tell You about Children's Vaccinations') I felt really

looked at the 'whole' picture and chose tests that would give her that

picture. She prescribed N-Acetyl-l-Carnitine to help with fatty acid

transport if it was a problem. She prescribed a custom amino acid blend

(the aminos and the fatty acids have a complex interplacy and if the aminos

are off - as my daughter's were - the fatty acids are going to be off as

well. We were already doing Brainchild vits and mins and to that she added

extra Vit E and Co Q10 and lipoceutical glutathione.

My daughter has absolutely soared under her care. One of the things I find

most interesting about this whole journey is that my daughter never had an

ASD diagnosis in the first place. Actually she didn't have an apraxia

diagnosis either. She was a 'touchy' infant with AWFUL digestion (awful

awful awful) for whom I had to severely modify my diet in order to nurse.

She walked late (17.5 months) and showed some general gross motor delay; and

her expressive speech did not begin until 31 months (though receptive was

always above age and more than intact). We ignored the conventional

therapies (ie speech and OT) and I got busy trying to understand the cause.

Long story short, but I realized she probably had some of the biomedical

markers of autism and I took her to see a Doctor who was known for treating

biomedically (Cave treats adults and children, all kinds of problems, not

limited to ASD kids or etc). In fact when we saw the lab values we felt we

really had dodged a bullet by the width of one of my hairs. We have treated

based on the labs (though before labs I had already been using probiotics,

Brainchild and HNI) and other than the supps in the cabinet (way too many)

at 3yrs 9 months, she is not distinguishable from her peers. We hope to

sustain the progress.

Also, FWIW, I think Cave would ultimately say (not to put words in her mouth

but I am guessing) that the disturbed fatty acid transport is often metals

induced. She has had a lot of success with chelation treatments and is

generally known for using DMSA. She wouldn't use the more controversial

TD-DMPS in part b/c it is not FDA approved for that particular usage. She

is (or at least was- not sure now) also on her state licensure board.

Last note - when it comes to the eating, so many of these kids, the autistic

ones and ones who share qualities with them wont eat ANYTHING good for them,

anything that would regulate their fatty acids or aminos or support their

little bodies. Food elimination and food pickiness was one of our BIGGEST

problems for the longest time. I thought it would NEVER end; but after

several months of following Dr. Cave's recommendations and doing biomed, we

had a big breakthrough and my daughter now EATS a balanced diet (which I am

grateful that the enzymes permit - she still needs those for sure!)

Cheers,

Josie

What level of EFAs does your doc consider to be too low? And what is he

using to determine the levels? I mean, what is his source of info that he

bases his definiton of " too low " on?

Further, IF the EFA level truly needs to be raised, but the child has

" disturbed fatty acid transport " , then it doesn't seem to make much sense to

just load on MORE EFAs. That seems akin to saturating a diabetic with sugar.

Wouldn't it make more sense to *correct* the falty fatty acid transport

problems rather than loading up on a substance that is actually toxic when

overdone?

_____

January 7, 2006

> Most CLO contains synthetic vits, but I'm hoping to locate a non

> high vitamin CLO that doesn't, which I can recommend for those who

> need more EPA and DHA than the high vit CLO contains.

Suze, If you find something with higher EPA/DHA than this please

post. My kids really prefer the capsules.

Robyn

Dr. Ron's Ultra-Pure Cod Liver Oil contains no synthetic or soy-

based antioxidants. Instead, we use the natural antioxidant rosemary

oil. Add natural organic flavoring oils, and the result is our full-

vitamin, premium quality, great tasting old-fashioned cod liver oil.

Nutrition Information: One-half teaspoon provides:

Vitamin A 5750 IUs EPA (eicosapentaenoic acid) 145 – 375 mg

Vitamin D 575 IUs DHA (docosahexaenoic acid) 150 – 360 mg

One capsule provides:

Vitamin A 2500 IUs EPA (eicosapentaenoic acid) 150 mg

Vitamin D 250 IUs DHA (docosahexaenoic acid) 100 mg

Rosemary Oil is used in all Dr. Ron's cod liver oils as a natural

antioxidant.

We also carry Carlson's Lemon-Flavored Cod Liver Oil (500 ml) and

soft gel capsules (1000 mg, 250 per bottle).

January 7, 2006

>

>-----Original Message-----

>From:

>[mailto: ] On Behalf Of Suze Fisher

>------------This is a good question about the Nordic Naturals.

>I've assumed

>not synthetic but as I revisit the website I see that they don't actually

>say this specifically. I'm posting the link here for you

>

>http://www.nordicnaturals.com/direct/whynordicnaturals.asp . Also

>note they

>have a big portion of their website devoted to fish oils and pets (which I

>have gathered is another interest of yours)

Thanks for the link Josie. I fished around the site a little and found the

following on page 7 of this PDF

" Since only cod liver contains

high levels of naturally occurring vitamins A and D, other cod liver oil

manufacturers have to add back synthetic vitamins to standardize the fish

oil as

cod liver oil. Nordic Naturals uses 100% Arctic Cod for all of its cod liver

oil

products. Our Arctic Cod Liver Oil contains the highest Omega-3 level of any

CLO product and is tested to ensure healthy levels of 100% naturally

occurring

vitamins A and D. "

The distributor of Blue Ice CLO (the high vitamin kind that I use) wrote an

article on CLO manufacturing in the last Wise Traditions. To get the

information for his article he visited 6 manufacturing plants in Iceland and

Norway. He said all but one of the plants added synthetic vitamins A and D

back to the oil, and the one that added natural vitamins back in was only

producing the high vitamin CLO. (Which makes the statement above about other

manufactures having to add back *synthetic* vits false). So that would

exclude Nordic Naturals. However, it's possible that he didn't visit their

plant. But they would definitely be in the minority if they are not adding

ANY vits A and D back into the oil. They can do this, apparently, because

they are using old technology in extracting processing the oil - molecular

distillation. This process leaves more of the vitamins intact, BUT it

involves temps of 190 CELCIUS to extract the oil! On the other hand, the

process that has replaced molecular distillation at more modernized plants,

deoderization, heats the oil to 170-180 C. The folks that Wetzel (the

Blue Ice guy) interviewed said this new process is better because there's

less oxidation of the oil. But it does remove all of the D and a lot of the

A, which is why they need to be added back in.

However, I'm not clear on what the NN PDF means by " enzymatic " molecular

distillation. I wonder if it's just a fancy way of saying " molecular

distillation " ? Also, their published assay shows their oil to be very low in

peroxides so even if they are using older, higher heat technology, the end

result seems to be that the oil is still quite stable.

Also, re their claim to not add vits A and D back in, interestingly the

ingredient list on their CLO reads:

Ingredients: purified arctic cod liver oil, vitamin D (cholecalciferol),

vitamin E (mixed tocopherols), 100% natural lemon oil

So, it looks like they do indeed add vitamin D back in, yet they claim they

don't in the PDF. Something fishy there...

As an aside, I like the fact that they used mixed tocopherols as a

preservative, but on the other hand, this almost always comes from soy oil

:-(

So, I guess I'm left with more questions than answers from reading their

site! Sigh...

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

----------------------------

" The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times. " --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

----------------------------

January 7, 2006

-----Original Message-----

>From:

>[mailto: ]On Behalf Of happydogmoon

>

>> Most CLO contains synthetic vits, but I'm hoping to locate a non

>> high vitamin CLO that doesn't, which I can recommend for those who

>> need more EPA and DHA than the high vit CLO contains.

>

>Suze, If you find something with higher EPA/DHA than this please

>post. My kids really prefer the capsules.

>

>Robyn

I will Robyn. BTW, Dr. Ron sells the Blue Ice in capsules too. It's at the

bottom of the list. But a lot of parents are reporting that their kids are

fine with some of the Blue Ice flavors even though they used to hate the

taste of CLO. I think cinamon is a favorite.

But they are still not high in EPA and DHA. It seems like CLO products are

either high in vitamins OR high in EPA and DHA. Maybe it's best to combine

the high vitamin CLO with fish oil for that reason, as I think, Josie said

she's doing. The vitamins in the CLO would probably protect the EPA and DHA

in the fish oil from peroxidation, as long as the levels of EPA and DHA

aren't excessive.

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

----------------------------

“The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times.” --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

>http://www.westonaprice.org/basicnutrition/clarifications.html

----------------------------

>

January 8, 2006

>-----Original Message-----

>From:

>[mailto: ]On Behalf Of happydogmoon

>

>OK, I checked out Weston A. Price Foundtion's site and found the

>following recommendations:

>

>Vitamin A, Vitamin D and Cod Liver Oil: Some Clarifications

>

>My 11 year old son gets around 4000 IUs of vitamin A from his mulit

>(Kirkman'sspectrum Complete) so if I supplement around 6000 IU's of

>CLO then he would be getting around the 10,000IU's recommended CLO.

>1. Just wondering if this will address his EFA deficiency and 2. if I

>need to rethink his multi to one that does not have vit. A.

Definitely re-think the multi Robyn. Synthetic vit A is 10X(!) more toxic

than natural vit A. Kirkman's product contains synthetic A. :-(

It's hard to tell if the WAPF's recommendation would correct your son's EFA

deficiency, especially if his EFA metabolism is deranged somehow. Their

recommendations are very general and not given with ASD in mind. The best

that you can do is experiment with amounts and see how his symptoms respond

or get him tested periodically. Keep in mind too that the A and D ratio

should be fairly low, although I don't know how low, as this information is

just coming in and I'm not sure if optimal ratios have been studied. So I

think adding supplemental A via a multi and not adding supplemental D might

not be a good idea.

Also, just to maintain overall good health for your son and your whole

family really, I can't recommend the WAPF site enough. There are loads of

articles on restoring and maintaining one's health through nutrition. Sally

Fallon's cookbook " Nourishing Traditions " is also a great resource as she

gives the basics of proper nutrition based on Weston Price's studies, along

with the recipes. Many folks have reported this book to be transformative,

and I think a couple of folks recently posted to the list

how much better their ASD kids are doing since eating WAP-style, which is to

say, following the dietary wisdom that Price learned from the

non-industrialized healthy populations that he studied. Nothing like

learning from a model of success!

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

----------------------------

“The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times.” --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics