Re: [enzymes]Josie/was: introduction - Now B12

[Guest guest]

Yes, we had to have blood drawn about a month after starting the methyl B12

and it was already up and reducing the MCHC or MCH or MCV (sorry, can't

remember which one is a marker for B12) part of the CBC.

We give throughout the day because this is how we started, habit. We started

with just 1500 mcg and increased slowly to 2500 mcg.

Theresa's study was on ABMD, try searching, if you can't find it, post to

her, she is very helpful.

Good luck,

RE: introduction - Now B12

>

> <<<B12 is stored in the liver, so there is no advantage in giving the

> shots

> or the spray, we give the amount through the day, works well, but you

> could

> give the whole amount in the AM and not worry that it will dissipate like

> the other B vitamins.

>

> ---------I'm not sure I understand this. I thought (one of the points) of

> the shots is that it permits the body to get the B12 slowly and so not be

> easily lost like the other B vitamins. And if, as you say, you can give

> the

> whole thing (sublingually) in the am and not worry that it will dissipate,

> why do you give it throughout the day? And (I might have missed this in

> your earlier post), how much are you giving? And have you confirmed

> w/blood

> testing that levels have raised using sublinguals?

>

>

> <<<We already had a B complex in place and still needed extra B6, in the

> form P5P, and B2.

>

> ---------Yeah I was mildly irritated w/my Dan for not anticipating this.

> We

> didn't have a B complex in place but we were doing Brainchild SSII, the

> one

> with B6, but not known for high levels of B by any stretch. Our original

> B

> markers were more or less within normal range EXCEPT for B12. After the

> last blood work, as I mentioned, all the Bs (especially B2 and B3) were

> low,

> zinc was more or less the same even though we had been dumping it into her

> and I was a little worried about mag. We added a B complex (Ecological

> Formulas) and she seems to be tolerating it well. Overall I just don't

> really like the high levels of ANY of these things as it is so tricky to

> make sure they are properly balanced. I have dreams of tapering off some

> day.

>

> <<<We are needle phobic here, ours also, by blood testing, showed low B12

> and it was indicated. But worry about the psychological effects (for her

> and

>

> I both, lol) of giving them shots, would if we absolutely had to, but

> definitely prefer not to

>

> ------------I hear you, and as I said I HATE the shots, but honestly, I

> worry more about the psychological effects of giving them so many

> vitamins.

> Other than the vitamins, I have a pretty normal kid (turning 4 in April)

> and, though she takes them all like a trooper she does occasionally ask me

> why she has to take more vitamins than other kids and why her tummy is

> " tricky " . As much as I hate doing the shot, it is one thing she just

> doest

> notice. She isn't a very heavy sleeper, but everyone who told me the

> numbing cream, would work and she wouldn't wake up was right. Knock on

> wood, she has never woken.

>

> Btw, no difference in sublingual and oral supplementation, Theresa

> Binstock

> had a great report on a study about this, that I saved, but can't find.

>

> ----------If you find the Binstock study would you please post it? Where

> did you see it originally? On ABMD? I don't get to that board very often

> these days. Maybe I will try to search the files there tomorrow.

>

> Thanks so much. This has been a helpful thread today.

>

> Josie

>

>

>

>

>

> _____

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Even if the MCV is back down to normal, and even if the serum B-12 is

normal, that does not mean that your body's stores of B-12 are OK.

They can still be deficient in this situation. It should be checked

with a urinary methyl malonic acid test, then you will know if your

child is still B-12 deficient. If the methyl malonic acid is too

high, the B-12 is still too low.

Peace,

Kathy E.

On Mar 21, 2006, at 7:28 AM, Cochran wrote:

> Yes, we had to have blood drawn about a month after starting the

> methyl B12

> and it was already up and reducing the MCHC or MCH or MCV (sorry,

> can't

> remember which one is a marker for B12) part of the CBC.

>

> We give throughout the day because this is how we started, habit.

> We started

> with just 1500 mcg and increased slowly to 2500 mcg.

>

> Theresa's study was on ABMD, try searching, if you can't find it,

> post to

> her, she is very helpful.

>

> Good luck,

>

>

>

> RE: introduction - Now B12

>

>

> >

> > <<<B12 is stored in the liver, so there is no advantage in giving

> the

> > shots

> > or the spray, we give the amount through the day, works well, but

> you

> > could

> > give the whole amount in the AM and not worry that it will

> dissipate like

> > the other B vitamins.

> >

> > ---------I'm not sure I understand this. I thought (one of the

> points) of

> > the shots is that it permits the body to get the B12 slowly and

> so not be

> > easily lost like the other B vitamins. And if, as you say, you

> can give

> > the

> > whole thing (sublingually) in the am and not worry that it will

> dissipate,

> > why do you give it throughout the day? And (I might have missed

> this in

> > your earlier post), how much are you giving? And have you confirmed

> > w/blood

> > testing that levels have raised using sublinguals?

> >

> >

> > <<<We already had a B complex in place and still needed extra B6,

> in the

> > form P5P, and B2.

> >

> > ---------Yeah I was mildly irritated w/my Dan for not

> anticipating this.

> > We

> > didn't have a B complex in place but we were doing Brainchild

> SSII, the

> > one

> > with B6, but not known for high levels of B by any stretch. Our

> original

> > B

> > markers were more or less within normal range EXCEPT for B12.

> After the

> > last blood work, as I mentioned, all the Bs (especially B2 and

> B3) were

> > low,

> > zinc was more or less the same even though we had been dumping it

> into her

> > and I was a little worried about mag. We added a B complex

> (Ecological

> > Formulas) and she seems to be tolerating it well. Overall I just

> don't

> > really like the high levels of ANY of these things as it is so

> tricky to

> > make sure they are properly balanced. I have dreams of tapering

> off some

> > day.

> >

> > <<<We are needle phobic here, ours also, by blood testing, showed

> low B12

> > and it was indicated. But worry about the psychological effects

> (for her

> > and

> >

> > I both, lol) of giving them shots, would if we absolutely had to,

> but

> > definitely prefer not to

> >

> > ------------I hear you, and as I said I HATE the shots, but

> honestly, I

> > worry more about the psychological effects of giving them so many

> > vitamins.

> > Other than the vitamins, I have a pretty normal kid (turning 4 in

> April)

> > and, though she takes them all like a trooper she does

> occasionally ask me

> > why she has to take more vitamins than other kids and why her

> tummy is

> > " tricky " . As much as I hate doing the shot, it is one thing she

> just

> > doest

> > notice. She isn't a very heavy sleeper, but everyone who told me

> the

> > numbing cream, would work and she wouldn't wake up was right.

> Knock on

> > wood, she has never woken.

> >

> > Btw, no difference in sublingual and oral supplementation, Theresa

> > Binstock

> > had a great report on a study about this, that I saved, but can't

> find.

> >

> > ----------If you find the Binstock study would you please post

> it? Where

> > did you see it originally? On ABMD? I don't get to that board

> very often

> > these days. Maybe I will try to search the files there tomorrow.

> >

> > Thanks so much. This has been a helpful thread today.

> >

> > Josie

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > _____

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Her MCV were high normal and they are back down to low normal. I have heard

various experts/drs/chemists disagree on this very subject. Since we got

outside signs (higher body temps) also, we considered her lowered MCV proof

enough.

RE: introduction - Now B12

>>

>>

>> >

>> > <<<B12 is stored in the liver, so there is no advantage in giving

>> the

>> > shots

>> > or the spray, we give the amount through the day, works well, but

>> you

>> > could

>> > give the whole amount in the AM and not worry that it will

>> dissipate like

>> > the other B vitamins.

>> >

>> > ---------I'm not sure I understand this. I thought (one of the

>> points) of

>> > the shots is that it permits the body to get the B12 slowly and

>> so not be

>> > easily lost like the other B vitamins. And if, as you say, you

>> can give

>> > the

>> > whole thing (sublingually) in the am and not worry that it will

>> dissipate,

>> > why do you give it throughout the day? And (I might have missed

>> this in

>> > your earlier post), how much are you giving? And have you confirmed

>> > w/blood

>> > testing that levels have raised using sublinguals?

>> >

>> >

>> > <<<We already had a B complex in place and still needed extra B6,

>> in the

>> > form P5P, and B2.

>> >

>> > ---------Yeah I was mildly irritated w/my Dan for not

>> anticipating this.

>> > We

>> > didn't have a B complex in place but we were doing Brainchild

>> SSII, the

>> > one

>> > with B6, but not known for high levels of B by any stretch. Our

>> original

>> > B

>> > markers were more or less within normal range EXCEPT for B12.

>> After the

>> > last blood work, as I mentioned, all the Bs (especially B2 and

>> B3) were

>> > low,

>> > zinc was more or less the same even though we had been dumping it

>> into her

>> > and I was a little worried about mag. We added a B complex

>> (Ecological

>> > Formulas) and she seems to be tolerating it well. Overall I just

>> don't

>> > really like the high levels of ANY of these things as it is so

>> tricky to

>> > make sure they are properly balanced. I have dreams of tapering

>> off some

>> > day.

>> >

>> > <<<We are needle phobic here, ours also, by blood testing, showed

>> low B12

>> > and it was indicated. But worry about the psychological effects

>> (for her

>> > and

>> >

>> > I both, lol) of giving them shots, would if we absolutely had to,

>> but

>> > definitely prefer not to

>> >

>> > ------------I hear you, and as I said I HATE the shots, but

>> honestly, I

>> > worry more about the psychological effects of giving them so many

>> > vitamins.

>> > Other than the vitamins, I have a pretty normal kid (turning 4 in

>> April)

>> > and, though she takes them all like a trooper she does

>> occasionally ask me

>> > why she has to take more vitamins than other kids and why her

>> tummy is

>> > " tricky " . As much as I hate doing the shot, it is one thing she

>> just

>> > doest

>> > notice. She isn't a very heavy sleeper, but everyone who told me

>> the

>> > numbing cream, would work and she wouldn't wake up was right.

>> Knock on

>> > wood, she has never woken.

>> >

>> > Btw, no difference in sublingual and oral supplementation, Theresa

>> > Binstock

>> > had a great report on a study about this, that I saved, but can't

>> find.

>> >

>> > ----------If you find the Binstock study would you please post

>> it? Where

>> > did you see it originally? On ABMD? I don't get to that board

>> very often

>> > these days. Maybe I will try to search the files there tomorrow.

>> >

>> > Thanks so much. This has been a helpful thread today.

>> >

>> > Josie

>> >

>> >

>> >

>> >

>> >

>> > _____

>> >

>> >

>> >

>> >

[Guest guest]

Well, I used to work in the nutrition department at Cornell for 6.5

years and interpreted these MCV things all the time. The problem is

this, that folate, iron and B12 all act on the size of the RBCs.. And

you definitely can have a B12 deficiency that can cause neurological

damage without ever even having a high MCV. I'm glad the body temp

is back up, but try reading the book I mentioned on B12 deficiency.

You should also be seeing neurological improvements of some kind if

B12 is sufficient. And serum B12 isn't accurate either.

I asked this specific question at the conference earlier this month,

whether it was possible, assuming iron stores were OK, to have a B12

deficiency without it showing up on the CBC in the form of a

macrocytic high MCV, and the answer (from Dr. Shaw) was yes, it was.

And the book gives case after case after case. Neurological damage

from B12 deficiency can be permanent if it isn't treated early

enough, so with all due respect, you owe it to your child to at least

read the book by Pacholok and Stuart. It's not expensive or invasive

to have a urinary methyl malonic test done.

Peace,

Kathy E., PhD

On Mar 21, 2006, at 11:50 AM, Cochran wrote:

> Her MCV were high normal and they are back down to low normal. I

> have heard

> various experts/drs/chemists disagree on this very subject. Since

> we got

> outside signs (higher body temps) also, we considered her lowered

> MCV proof

> enough.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

If her cognitive gets any better, she can skip elementary school, Kathleen.

She is 5.2, reads at a 6th grade level, taught herself to read at 2.5. Her

math skills are equally scary. We are looking for ways to slow her down.

Any ideas?

Re: Josie/was: introduction - Now B12

> Well, I used to work in the nutrition department at Cornell for 6.5

> years and interpreted these MCV things all the time. The problem is

> this, that folate, iron and B12 all act on the size of the RBCs.. And

> you definitely can have a B12 deficiency that can cause neurological

> damage without ever even having a high MCV. I'm glad the body temp

> is back up, but try reading the book I mentioned on B12 deficiency.

> You should also be seeing neurological improvements of some kind if

> B12 is sufficient. And serum B12 isn't accurate either.

>

> I asked this specific question at the conference earlier this month,

> whether it was possible, assuming iron stores were OK, to have a B12

> deficiency without it showing up on the CBC in the form of a

> macrocytic high MCV, and the answer (from Dr. Shaw) was yes, it was.

> And the book gives case after case after case. Neurological damage

> from B12 deficiency can be permanent if it isn't treated early

> enough, so with all due respect, you owe it to your child to at least

> read the book by Pacholok and Stuart. It's not expensive or invasive

> to have a urinary methyl malonic test done.

>

> Peace,

> Kathy E., PhD

> On Mar 21, 2006, at 11:50 AM, Cochran wrote:

>

>> Her MCV were high normal and they are back down to low normal. I

>> have heard

>> various experts/drs/chemists disagree on this very subject. Since

>> we got

>> outside signs (higher body temps) also, we considered her lowered

>> MCV proof

>> enough.

>>

>>

>>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

This might be a form of hyperlexia. I never thought that her

cognitive skills were affected. This does not mean that she isn't

having neuro problems or B12 deficiency, however.

Peace,

Kathy E.

On Mar 21, 2006, at 1:33 PM, Cochran wrote:

> If her cognitive gets any better, she can skip elementary school,

> Kathleen.

> She is 5.2, reads at a 6th grade level, taught herself to read at

> 2.5. Her

> math skills are equally scary. We are looking for ways to slow her

> down.

> Any ideas?

>

>

>

>

> Re: Josie/was: introduction - Now B12

>

>

> > Well, I used to work in the nutrition department at Cornell for 6.5

> > years and interpreted these MCV things all the time. The problem is

> > this, that folate, iron and B12 all act on the size of the RBCs..

> And

> > you definitely can have a B12 deficiency that can cause neurological

> > damage without ever even having a high MCV. I'm glad the body temp

> > is back up, but try reading the book I mentioned on B12 deficiency.

> > You should also be seeing neurological improvements of some kind if

> > B12 is sufficient. And serum B12 isn't accurate either.

> >

> > I asked this specific question at the conference earlier this month,

> > whether it was possible, assuming iron stores were OK, to have a B12

> > deficiency without it showing up on the CBC in the form of a

> > macrocytic high MCV, and the answer (from Dr. Shaw) was yes, it was.

> > And the book gives case after case after case. Neurological damage

> > from B12 deficiency can be permanent if it isn't treated early

> > enough, so with all due respect, you owe it to your child to at

> least

> > read the book by Pacholok and Stuart. It's not expensive or invasive

> > to have a urinary methyl malonic test done.

> >

> > Peace,

> > Kathy E., PhD

> > On Mar 21, 2006, at 11:50 AM, Cochran wrote:

> >

> >> Her MCV were high normal and they are back down to low normal. I

> >> have heard

> >> various experts/drs/chemists disagree on this very subject. Since

> >> we got

> >> outside signs (higher body temps) also, we considered her lowered

> >> MCV proof

> >> enough.

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

True hyperlexia is the reading ability without the comprehension.

Questioning her, even at 2, she did understand what she read and she

continues with good comprehension of what she reads.

She has had two examinations by pediatric neurologists and no hard or soft

signs of neurological problems remain, although she continues to receive the

oral methyl B12 daily.

We will continue to have her monitored.

Re: Josie/was: introduction - Now B12

>>

>>

>> > Well, I used to work in the nutrition department at Cornell for 6.5

>> > years and interpreted these MCV things all the time. The problem is

>> > this, that folate, iron and B12 all act on the size of the RBCs..

>> And

>> > you definitely can have a B12 deficiency that can cause neurological

>> > damage without ever even having a high MCV. I'm glad the body temp

>> > is back up, but try reading the book I mentioned on B12 deficiency.

>> > You should also be seeing neurological improvements of some kind if

>> > B12 is sufficient. And serum B12 isn't accurate either.

>> >

>> > I asked this specific question at the conference earlier this month,

>> > whether it was possible, assuming iron stores were OK, to have a B12

>> > deficiency without it showing up on the CBC in the form of a

>> > macrocytic high MCV, and the answer (from Dr. Shaw) was yes, it was.

>> > And the book gives case after case after case. Neurological damage

>> > from B12 deficiency can be permanent if it isn't treated early

>> > enough, so with all due respect, you owe it to your child to at

>> least

>> > read the book by Pacholok and Stuart. It's not expensive or invasive

>> > to have a urinary methyl malonic test done.

>> >

>> > Peace,

>> > Kathy E., PhD

>> > On Mar 21, 2006, at 11:50 AM, Cochran wrote:

>> >

>> >> Her MCV were high normal and they are back down to low normal. I

>> >> have heard

>> >> various experts/drs/chemists disagree on this very subject. Since

>> >> we got

>> >> outside signs (higher body temps) also, we considered her lowered

>> >> MCV proof

>> >> enough.

>> >>

>> >>

>> >>

>> >

>> >

>> >

>> >

>> >

[Guest guest]

She sounds like a smart little cookie! I hope the pediatric

neurologists are smarter than the one Benny saw!

And I'm glad she is getting the oral methyl B12.

Why slow her down? Except--because of preschool testing, I skipped

kindergarten. But never learned to tie my shoes so they would stay

tied, LOL! Maybe I shouldn't have done that! Seriously, it is a

problem keeping a bright child from being bored in school. I hope

they will give her extra workbooks and things.

Peace,

Kathy E.

On Mar 23, 2006, at 6:19 AM, Cochran wrote:

> True hyperlexia is the reading ability without the comprehension.

> Questioning her, even at 2, she did understand what she read and she

> continues with good comprehension of what she reads.

>

> She has had two examinations by pediatric neurologists and no hard

> or soft

> signs of neurological problems remain, although she continues to

> receive the

> oral methyl B12 daily.

>

> We will continue to have her monitored.

>

>

>

>

> Re: Josie/was: introduction - Now B12

>

>

> > This might be a form of hyperlexia. I never thought that her

> > cognitive skills were affected. This does not mean that she isn't

> > having neuro problems or B12 deficiency, however.

> >

> > Peace,

> > Kathy E.

> > On Mar 21, 2006, at 1:33 PM, Cochran wrote:

> >

> >> If her cognitive gets any better, she can skip elementary school,

> >> Kathleen.

> >> She is 5.2, reads at a 6th grade level, taught herself to read at

> >> 2.5. Her

> >> math skills are equally scary. We are looking for ways to slow her

> >> down.

> >> Any ideas?

> >>

> >>

>

[Guest guest]

Well, one ped neurologist was good and one was questionable for other

reasons, but both gave her thorough neurological exams. I know what a good

exam looks like and asked lots of questions about what would indicate any

problems.

She had a great grandmother with pernicious anemia, so we are sure to keep

the supplementation with methyl B12 going for some time. I agree its

critical.

Thanks for your input, Kathleen.

From: " Kathleen Eickwort " <Kathleen_E@...>

> She sounds like a smart little cookie! I hope the pediatric

> neurologists are smarter than the one Benny saw!

>

> And I'm glad she is getting the oral methyl B12.

>

> Why slow her down? Except--because of preschool testing, I skipped

> kindergarten. But never learned to tie my shoes so they would stay

> tied, LOL! Maybe I shouldn't have done that! Seriously, it is a

> problem keeping a bright child from being bored in school. I hope

> they will give her extra workbooks and things.

>

> Peace,

> Kathy E.

> On Mar 23, 2006, at 6:19 AM, Cochran wrote:

>

>> True hyperlexia is the reading ability without the comprehension.

>> Questioning her, even at 2, she did understand what she read and she

>> continues with good comprehension of what she reads.

>>

>> She has had two examinations by pediatric neurologists and no hard

>> or soft

>> signs of neurological problems remain, although she continues to

>> receive the

>> oral methyl B12 daily.

>>

>> We will continue to have her monitored.

>>

>>

>>

>>

>> Re: Josie/was: introduction - Now B12

>>

>>

>> > This might be a form of hyperlexia. I never thought that her

>> > cognitive skills were affected. This does not mean that she isn't

>> > having neuro problems or B12 deficiency, however.

>> >

>> > Peace,

>> > Kathy E.

>> > On Mar 21, 2006, at 1:33 PM, Cochran wrote:

>> >

>> >> If her cognitive gets any better, she can skip elementary school,

>> >> Kathleen.

>> >> She is 5.2, reads at a 6th grade level, taught herself to read at

>> >> 2.5. Her

>> >> math skills are equally scary. We are looking for ways to slow her

>> >> down.

>> >> Any ideas?

>> >>

>> >>

>>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

>>Seriously, it is a

> problem keeping a bright child from being bored in school. I hope

> they will give her extra workbooks and things.

I loved things like extra workbooks when I was in school. However, my

#1 HATES workbooks of any kind, and he is functioning above grade

level in most subjects. We use minimal workbooks, and do things OTHER

than workbooks for him.

Dana

[Guest guest]

Yea, extra workbooks not going to do it for her. I liked them, but she

actually wants hand on learning experiences, thinking she would be better

served in a semi-structured Montessouri school, but she is starting out in

public school. Trying to stay positive, but very fearful either her or the

teachers will not make it.

She was in a primarily socially oriented preschool, as there are many

problems from learning things too quickly. I just read an article that

talked about how you need adequate mylein sheathing to read so was thinking,

great, we don't have that problem. Further reading of the article found them

saying that if reading is started too soon, it can actually damage the

myelin sheaths, ouch!!

She got punished for knowing/saying all the sight words, then got in trouble

for whispering to the other kids to help them figure them out. That is

pretty much what school is like for kids like this, in my experience. Never

good to be too far from the norm no matter which end of the continuum you

are.

From: " danasview " <danasview@...>

>

> I loved things like extra workbooks when I was in school. However, my

> #1 HATES workbooks of any kind, and he is functioning above grade

> level in most subjects. We use minimal workbooks, and do things OTHER

> than workbooks for him.

>

> Dana

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

,

If you can't change schools, you may be able to find the teacher

most appropriate for her. If any of the teachers use a whole

language or conversation-centered approach, this opens up the door

for lots and lots of individuality. It's how I taught in the high

school setting (I have an aversion to workbooks--best day of

elementary school for me was when a kid named Ian threw up on the

entire row as he ran to the bathroom and our teacher had to pull

about 20 pages from my book all in the days before photocopiers) and

it leaves room for every child, no matter where they are. I taught

tons of kids who were way, way smarter than me this way.

If you cannot find a teacher who uses this approach, maybe you can

organize special projects to be done when the regular work is done.

This could be anything at all. Making scrapbooks, writing her own

book and illustrating it, preparing Christmas cards, knitting.

Anything that would be quiet, easily started and stopped, and not

requiring help. No teacher would object to that (I hope!)

I can understand your fear. Schooling really doesn't do well by

many kids, I'm afraid.

Also, I cannot understand how early reading could damage anything,

except maybe your social life, if it turns into an addiction. I

taught many kids who started reading at age three or four and they

were still the best and brightest people you'd ever want to meet at

the age of 16 or 17. Don't worry about that.

Take care,

Anita

>

> Yea, extra workbooks not going to do it for her. I liked them, but

she

> actually wants hand on learning experiences, thinking she would be

better

> served in a semi-structured Montessouri school, but she is

starting out in

> public school. Trying to stay positive, but very fearful either

her or the

> teachers will not make it.

>

> She was in a primarily socially oriented preschool, as there are

many

> problems from learning things too quickly. I just read an article

that

> talked about how you need adequate mylein sheathing to read so was

thinking,

> great, we don't have that problem. Further reading of the article

found them

> saying that if reading is started too soon, it can actually damage

the

> myelin sheaths, ouch!!

>

> She got punished for knowing/saying all the sight words, then got

in trouble

> for whispering to the other kids to help them figure them out.

That is

> pretty much what school is like for kids like this, in my

experience. Never

> good to be too far from the norm no matter which end of the

continuum you

> are.

>

>

>

>

>