Guest guest Posted November 9, 2005 Report Share Posted November 9, 2005 Thank-you! Any Aussies on the list - if you're looking for vitamin C friendly Doctors try the Your Health clinics www.yourhealth.com.au ~ Jowanna. > > Your physician will probably never tell you about this so you must fend for > yourself. Read the research! > > Gupta > <http://tinyurl.com/b6ghn> http://tinyurl.com/b6ghn > > See also: > <http://www.newmediaexplorer.org/chris/2005/09/14/the_stonewalling_of_ vitami > n_c.htm> The Stonewalling of Vitamin C > ------------------------------------------------------------- > > <http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi? cmd=Retrieve & db=PubMed & list_u > ids=99218032 & dopt=Citation> Intake of vitamins B6 and C and the risk of > kidney stones in women > Curhan, G. C., Willett, W. C., Speizer, F. E., Stampfer, M. J. > J Am Soc Nephrol 10:4:840-845, Apr 1999 > > Abstract > > Urinary oxalate is an important determinant of calcium oxalate kidney stone > formation. High doses of vitamin B6 may decrease oxalate production, > whereas vitamin C can be metabolized to oxalate. This study was conducted > to examine the association between the intakes of vitamins B6 and C and > risk of kidney stone formation in women. The relation between the intake of > vitamins B6 and C and the risk of symptomatic kidney stones were > prospectively studied in a cohort of 85,557 women with no history of kidney > stones. Semiquantitative food-frequency questionnaires were used to assess > vitamin consumption from both foods and supplements. A total of 1078 > incident cases of kidney stones was documented during the 14-yr follow-up > period. A high intake of vitamin B6 was inversely associated with risk of > stone formation. After adjusting for other dietary factors, the relative > risk of incident stone formation for women in the highest category of B6 > intake (> or =40 mg/d) compared with the lowest category (<3 mg/d) was 0.66 > (95% confidence interval, 0.44 to 0.98). In contrast, vitamin C intake was > not associated with risk. The multivariate relative risk for women in the > highest category of vitamin C intake (> or =1500 mg/d) compared with the > lowest category (<250 mg/d) was 1.06 (95% confidence interval, 0.69 to > 1.64). Large doses of vitamin B6 may reduce the risk of kidney stone > formation in women. Routine restriction of vitamin C to prevent stone > formation appears unwarranted. > > Linus ing was a mentor of mine and a sponsor of the Center for Vitamins > and Cancer Research that I co-founded at the University of Colorado Medical > School in 1980. He was a great supporter of Vitamin C for all that ails > you. There are many recent research papers showing reduction in heart > disease, increased longevity, and so forth from taking more than 10 times > the government recommended amount of Vitamin C. One of the arguments > against taking large amount of Vitamin C was the risk of kidney stones. > That debate has been laid to rest by a large study showing no increase in > kidney stones from Vitamin C and a significant reduction in kidney stones > from increased Vitamin B6. > > The above originally posted by > <http://www.jeffsutherland.org/complementary>Jeff Sutherland > > Why Don't Massive Doses of Ascorbate Produce Kidney Stones? > > Years ago when Linus ing wrote his book " Vitamin C and the Common > Cold " , the critics immediately labeled the taking of large doses of vitamin > C dangerous because it would produce calcium oxalate kidney stones. This > practice of telling people that vitamin C caused kidney stones continues > today by the critics of vitamin C despite the lack of clinical evidence of > kidney stones in people taking vitamin C > > It was hypothesized that since a significant percentage of ascorbate was > metabolized into and excreted as oxalic acid that this oxalic acid should > combine with calcium in the urine and deposit as calcium oxalate kidney > stones. It is true that those of us who take large doses of ascorbate have > elevated oxalic acid in our urine but no kidney stones. With the millions > of people in the world taking vitamin C, if vitamin C caused kidney stones > there would have been a massive epidemic of kidney stones noticed by this > time. There has been none. > > I started using vitamin C in massive doses in-patients in 1969. By the time > I read that ascorbate should cause kidney stones, I had clinical evidence > that it did not cause kidney stones, so I continued prescribing massive > doses to patients. To this day I estimate that I have put 25,000 patients > on massive doses of vitamin C and none have developed kidney stones. Two > patients who had dropped their doses to 500 mg a day developed calcium > oxalate kidney stones. I raised their doses back up to the more massive > doses and added magnesium and B6 to their program and no more kidney > stones. I think that the low doses had no effect and they, by coincidence, > developed the kidney stones because they were not taking enough vitamin C. > > The question remains, however, why do not people taking large doses of > ascorbate develop kidney stones. I had in 1985 hypothesized that one of the > reasons that we did not develop kidney stones was that the ascorbate > excreted in the urine sterilizes the urine and > " <http://www.orthomed.com/nonrate.htm#OXALATE KIDNEY>should prevent many of > the niduses of infection around which oxalate stones frequently form. " > (Cathcart, RF. Vitamin C: the Nontoxic, Nonrate-Limited, Antioxidant Free > Radical Scavenger. Medical Hypotheses, 18:61-77, 1985.) > > In an article in <http://www.sciencenews.org/sn_arc98/8_1_98/bob2.htm> > ScienceNewsOnline, August 1, 1998, the Bacteria in the Stone it is said > that Extra-tiny microorganisms may lead to kidney stones and other > diseases. Tiny nanobacteria, as small as the larger viruses, live in urine > and, by precipitating calcium and other minerals around themselves, induce > the formation of kidney stones. It seems that the large doses of ascorbate > by causing the excretion of ascorbate in the urine probably kills the > nanobacteria and prevents the formation of stones. > > In addition, the massive doses of ascorbate assist the immune system to > kill bacteria within the body but have the ability to kill bacteria by some > mechanism, which does not seem to involve the immune system. These bacteria > and L-forms of bacteria hide out in cells especially when antibiotics are > used and explain some of the resistance acquired by bacteria against > antibiotics. I have yet to see bacteria that can become resistant to > massive doses of ascorbate in combination with first and second- generation > antibiotics. Admittedly in a private practice, I do not see the most > resistant bacteria but this combination has been impressive and deserves to > be tried against the most resistant bacteria. It may solve the impending > problem of increasingly resistant bacteria. > > See also the med center study indicating that even moderate doses of C > prevent kidney stones. > > <http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi? cmd=Retrieve & db=PubMed & list_u > ids=8618271 & dopt=Abstract> A prospective study of the intake of vitamins C > and B6, and the risk of kidney stones in men. > > Curhan GC, Willett WC, Rimm EB, Stampfer MJ. > > Department of Epidemiology, Harvard School of Public Health, Boston, > Massachusetts 02115, USA. > > PURPOSE: The association between the intake of vitamins C and B6, and > kidney stone formation was examined. MATERIALS AND METHODS: We conducted a > prospective study of the relationship between the intake of vitamins C and > B6 and the risk of symptomatic kidney stones in a cohort of 45,251 men 40 > to 75 years old with no history of kidney calculi. Vitamin intake from > foods and supplements was assessed using a semiquantitative food frequency > questionnaire completed in 1986. RESULTS: During 6 years of followup 751 > incident cases of kidney stones were documented. Neither vitamin C nor > vitamin B6 intake was significantly associated with the risk of stone > formation. For vitamin C the age-adjusted relative risk for men consuming > 1,500 mg. daily or more compared to less than 250 mg. daily was 0.78 (95% > confidence interval 0.54 to 1.11). For vitamin B6 the age-adjusted relative > risk for men consuming 40 mg. daily or more compared to less than 3 mg. > daily was 0.91 (95% confidence interval 0.64 to 1.31). After adjusting for > other potential stone risk factors the relative risks did not change > significantly. CONCLUSIONS: These data do not support an association > between a high daily intake of vitamin C or vitamin B6 and the risk of > stone formation, even when consumed in large doses. > > PMID: 8618271 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] > > > To subscribe / unsubscribe: chrisgupta@a... > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > Sheri Nakken, R.N., MA, Classical Homeopath > Vaccination Information & Choice Network, Nevada City CA & Wales UK > $$ Donations to help in the work - accepted by Paypal account > vaccineinfo@t... voicemail US 530-740-0561 > (go to http://www.paypal.com) or by mail > Vaccines - http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/vaccine.htm > Vaccine Dangers On-Line course - http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/vaccineclass.htm > Homeopathy On-Line course - http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/homeo.htm > ANY INFO OBTAINED HERE NOT TO BE CONSTRUED AS MEDICAL > OR LEGAL ADVICE. THE DECISION TO VACCINATE IS YOURS AND YOURS ALONE. > ****** > " Just look at us. Everything is backwards; everything is upside down. > Doctors destroy health, lawyers destroy justice, universities destroy > knowledge, governments destroy freedom, the major media destroy information > and religions destroy spirituality " .... Ellner > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 30, 2006 Report Share Posted May 30, 2006 Your physician will probably never tell you about this so you must fend for yourself. Read the research! Gupta <http://tinyurl.com/b6ghn> http://tinyurl.com/b6ghn See also: <http://www.newmediaexplorer.org/chris/2005/09/14/the_stonewalling_of_vitami n_c.htm> The Stonewalling of Vitamin C ------------------------------------------------------------- <http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve & db=PubMed & list_u ids=99218032 & dopt=Citation> Intake of vitamins B6 and C and the risk of kidney stones in women Curhan, G. C., Willett, W. C., Speizer, F. E., Stampfer, M. J. J Am Soc Nephrol 10:4:840-845, Apr 1999 Abstract Urinary oxalate is an important determinant of calcium oxalate kidney stone formation. High doses of vitamin B6 may decrease oxalate production, whereas vitamin C can be metabolized to oxalate. This study was conducted to examine the association between the intakes of vitamins B6 and C and risk of kidney stone formation in women. The relation between the intake of vitamins B6 and C and the risk of symptomatic kidney stones were prospectively studied in a cohort of 85,557 women with no history of kidney stones. Semiquantitative food-frequency questionnaires were used to assess vitamin consumption from both foods and supplements. A total of 1078 incident cases of kidney stones was documented during the 14-yr follow-up period. A high intake of vitamin B6 was inversely associated with risk of stone formation. After adjusting for other dietary factors, the relative risk of incident stone formation for women in the highest category of B6 intake (> or =40 mg/d) compared with the lowest category (<3 mg/d) was 0.66 (95% confidence interval, 0.44 to 0.98). In contrast, vitamin C intake was not associated with risk. The multivariate relative risk for women in the highest category of vitamin C intake (> or =1500 mg/d) compared with the lowest category (<250 mg/d) was 1.06 (95% confidence interval, 0.69 to 1.64). Large doses of vitamin B6 may reduce the risk of kidney stone formation in women. Routine restriction of vitamin C to prevent stone formation appears unwarranted. Linus ing was a mentor of mine and a sponsor of the Center for Vitamins and Cancer Research that I co-founded at the University of Colorado Medical School in 1980. He was a great supporter of Vitamin C for all that ails you. There are many recent research papers showing reduction in heart disease, increased longevity, and so forth from taking more than 10 times the government recommended amount of Vitamin C. One of the arguments against taking large amount of Vitamin C was the risk of kidney stones. That debate has been laid to rest by a large study showing no increase in kidney stones from Vitamin C and a significant reduction in kidney stones from increased Vitamin B6. The above originally posted by <http://www.jeffsutherland.org/complementary>Jeff Sutherland Why Don't Massive Doses of Ascorbate Produce Kidney Stones? Years ago when Linus ing wrote his book " Vitamin C and the Common Cold " , the critics immediately labeled the taking of large doses of vitamin C dangerous because it would produce calcium oxalate kidney stones. This practice of telling people that vitamin C caused kidney stones continues today by the critics of vitamin C despite the lack of clinical evidence of kidney stones in people taking vitamin C It was hypothesized that since a significant percentage of ascorbate was metabolized into and excreted as oxalic acid that this oxalic acid should combine with calcium in the urine and deposit as calcium oxalate kidney stones. It is true that those of us who take large doses of ascorbate have elevated oxalic acid in our urine but no kidney stones. With the millions of people in the world taking vitamin C, if vitamin C caused kidney stones there would have been a massive epidemic of kidney stones noticed by this time. There has been none. I started using vitamin C in massive doses in-patients in 1969. By the time I read that ascorbate should cause kidney stones, I had clinical evidence that it did not cause kidney stones, so I continued prescribing massive doses to patients. To this day I estimate that I have put 25,000 patients on massive doses of vitamin C and none have developed kidney stones. Two patients who had dropped their doses to 500 mg a day developed calcium oxalate kidney stones. I raised their doses back up to the more massive doses and added magnesium and B6 to their program and no more kidney stones. I think that the low doses had no effect and they, by coincidence, developed the kidney stones because they were not taking enough vitamin C. The question remains, however, why do not people taking large doses of ascorbate develop kidney stones. I had in 1985 hypothesized that one of the reasons that we did not develop kidney stones was that the ascorbate excreted in the urine sterilizes the urine and " <http://www.orthomed.com/nonrate.htm#OXALATE KIDNEY>should prevent many of the niduses of infection around which oxalate stones frequently form. " (Cathcart, RF. Vitamin C: the Nontoxic, Nonrate-Limited, Antioxidant Free Radical Scavenger. Medical Hypotheses, 18:61-77, 1985.) In an article in <http://www.sciencenews.org/sn_arc98/8_1_98/bob2.htm> ScienceNewsOnline, August 1, 1998, the Bacteria in the Stone it is said that Extra-tiny microorganisms may lead to kidney stones and other diseases. Tiny nanobacteria, as small as the larger viruses, live in urine and, by precipitating calcium and other minerals around themselves, induce the formation of kidney stones. It seems that the large doses of ascorbate by causing the excretion of ascorbate in the urine probably kills the nanobacteria and prevents the formation of stones. In addition, the massive doses of ascorbate assist the immune system to kill bacteria within the body but have the ability to kill bacteria by some mechanism, which does not seem to involve the immune system. These bacteria and L-forms of bacteria hide out in cells especially when antibiotics are used and explain some of the resistance acquired by bacteria against antibiotics. I have yet to see bacteria that can become resistant to massive doses of ascorbate in combination with first and second-generation antibiotics. Admittedly in a private practice, I do not see the most resistant bacteria but this combination has been impressive and deserves to be tried against the most resistant bacteria. It may solve the impending problem of increasingly resistant bacteria. See also the med center study indicating that even moderate doses of C prevent kidney stones. <http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve & db=PubMed & list_u ids=8618271 & dopt=Abstract> A prospective study of the intake of vitamins C and B6, and the risk of kidney stones in men. Curhan GC, Willett WC, Rimm EB, Stampfer MJ. Department of Epidemiology, Harvard School of Public Health, Boston, Massachusetts 02115, USA. PURPOSE: The association between the intake of vitamins C and B6, and kidney stone formation was examined. MATERIALS AND METHODS: We conducted a prospective study of the relationship between the intake of vitamins C and B6 and the risk of symptomatic kidney stones in a cohort of 45,251 men 40 to 75 years old with no history of kidney calculi. Vitamin intake from foods and supplements was assessed using a semiquantitative food frequency questionnaire completed in 1986. RESULTS: During 6 years of followup 751 incident cases of kidney stones were documented. Neither vitamin C nor vitamin B6 intake was significantly associated with the risk of stone formation. For vitamin C the age-adjusted relative risk for men consuming 1,500 mg. daily or more compared to less than 250 mg. daily was 0.78 (95% confidence interval 0.54 to 1.11). For vitamin B6 the age-adjusted relative risk for men consuming 40 mg. daily or more compared to less than 3 mg. daily was 0.91 (95% confidence interval 0.64 to 1.31). After adjusting for other potential stone risk factors the relative risks did not change significantly. CONCLUSIONS: These data do not support an association between a high daily intake of vitamin C or vitamin B6 and the risk of stone formation, even when consumed in large doses. PMID: 8618271 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] To subscribe / unsubscribe: chrisgupta@... -------------------------------------------------------- Sheri Nakken, R.N., MA, Hahnemannian Homeopath Vaccination Information & Choice Network, Nevada City CA & Wales UK $$ Donations to help in the work - accepted by Paypal account earthmysteriestours@... voicemail US 530-740-0561 (go to http://www.paypal.com) or by mail Vaccines - http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/vaccine.htm Vaccine Dangers On-Line course - http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/vaccineclass.htm Reality of the Diseases & Treatment - http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/vaccineclass.htm Homeopathy On-Line course - http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/homeo.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 30, 2008 Report Share Posted November 30, 2008 I have tried several times to give my daughter, high functioning autism now, Vit. C buffered powder at very small doses & she cannot tolerate it at all. I read somewhere that it can aggravate an already existing phenol transferase PST problem & she shos the symptoms of PT problems ith all fruits & veggies almost. Don't know how she survived this long without it or how she got better. I mean really better. In Feb. 2005 her ATEC score was 122 & now it's 20. I have to give her epsom salts baths & molybdenum & have for 2 yrs. now off/on. It's a great balance I must juggle. I have tried to use a ND & homeopathy before but we got caught in this PST probelm. Some of the ingredients in homeopathic meds have Vit. C in it. When she takes it, she has burning pee or doesn't pee for almost a whole day & that's at 1 small pinch. There is almost nothing I can use for her for foods, soaps ect. because lots of things contain Vit. C. Anyone know any kids with this problem? I think they call it a Phase 1 or 2 liver detox enzyme. She is 8yrs. old now doesn't get vaxed anymore & last time was about 14 mo. old. Mainstreaming in school. Any help or specific suggestions for this PST, Vit. C problem would be greatly appreciated. There was a time she didn't trust any food I gave her. Jenn L Excessive Vitamin C Consumption Does Not Cause Kidney Stones! Your physician will probably never tell you about this so you must fend for yourself. Read the research! Gupta <http://tinyurl.com/b6ghn> http://tinyurl.com/b6ghn See also: <http://www.newmediaexplorer.org/chris/2005/09/14/the_stonewalling_of_vitami n_c.htm> The Stonewalling of Vitamin C ---------------------------------------------------------- <http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve & db=PubMed & list_u ids=99218032 & dopt=Citation> Intake of vitamins B6 and C and the risk of kidney stones in women Curhan, G. C., Willett, W. C., Speizer, F. E., Stampfer, M. J. J Am Soc Nephrol 10:4:840-845, Apr 1999 Abstract Urinary oxalate is an important determinant of calcium oxalate kidney stone formation. High doses of vitamin B6 may decrease oxalate production, whereas vitamin C can be metabolized to oxalate. This study was conducted to examine the association between the intakes of vitamins B6 and C and risk of kidney stone formation in women. The relation between the intake of vitamins B6 and C and the risk of symptomatic kidney stones were prospectively studied in a cohort of 85,557 women with no history of kidney stones. Semiquantitative food-frequency questionnaires were used to assess vitamin consumption from both foods and supplements. A total of 1078 incident cases of kidney stones was documented during the 14-yr follow-up period. A high intake of vitamin B6 was inversely associated with risk of stone formation. After adjusting for other dietary factors, the relative risk of incident stone formation for women in the highest category of B6 intake (> or =40 mg/d) compared with the lowest category (<3 mg/d) was 0.66 (95% confidence interval, 0.44 to 0.98). In contrast, vitamin C intake was not associated with risk. The multivariate relative risk for women in the highest category of vitamin C intake (> or =1500 mg/d) compared with the lowest category (<250 mg/d) was 1.06 (95% confidence interval, 0.69 to 1.64). Large doses of vitamin B6 may reduce the risk of kidney stone formation in women. Routine restriction of vitamin C to prevent stone formation appears unwarranted. Linus ing was a mentor of mine and a sponsor of the Center for Vitamins and Cancer Research that I co-founded at the University of Colorado Medical School in 1980. He was a great supporter of Vitamin C for all that ails you. There are many recent research papers showing reduction in heart disease, increased longevity, and so forth from taking more than 10 times the government recommended amount of Vitamin C. One of the arguments against taking large amount of Vitamin C was the risk of kidney stones. That debate has been laid to rest by a large study showing no increase in kidney stones from Vitamin C and a significant reduction in kidney stones from increased Vitamin B6. The above originally posted by <http://www.jeffsutherland.org/complementary>Jeff Sutherland Why Don't Massive Doses of Ascorbate Produce Kidney Stones? Years ago when Linus ing wrote his book " Vitamin C and the Common Cold " , the critics immediately labeled the taking of large doses of vitamin C dangerous because it would produce calcium oxalate kidney stones. This practice of telling people that vitamin C caused kidney stones continues today by the critics of vitamin C despite the lack of clinical evidence of kidney stones in people taking vitamin C It was hypothesized that since a significant percentage of ascorbate was metabolized into and excreted as oxalic acid that this oxalic acid should combine with calcium in the urine and deposit as calcium oxalate kidney stones. It is true that those of us who take large doses of ascorbate have elevated oxalic acid in our urine but no kidney stones. With the millions of people in the world taking vitamin C, if vitamin C caused kidney stones there would have been a massive epidemic of kidney stones noticed by this time. There has been none. I started using vitamin C in massive doses in-patients in 1969. By the time I read that ascorbate should cause kidney stones, I had clinical evidence that it did not cause kidney stones, so I continued prescribing massive doses to patients. To this day I estimate that I have put 25,000 patients on massive doses of vitamin C and none have developed kidney stones. Two patients who had dropped their doses to 500 mg a day developed calcium oxalate kidney stones. I raised their doses back up to the more massive doses and added magnesium and B6 to their program and no more kidney stones. I think that the low doses had no effect and they, by coincidence, developed the kidney stones because they were not taking enough vitamin C. The question remains, however, why do not people taking large doses of ascorbate develop kidney stones. I had in 1985 hypothesized that one of the reasons that we did not develop kidney stones was that the ascorbate excreted in the urine sterilizes the urine and " <http://www.orthomed.com/nonrate.htm#OXALATE KIDNEY>should prevent many of the niduses of infection around which oxalate stones frequently form. " (Cathcart, RF. Vitamin C: the Nontoxic, Nonrate-Limited, Antioxidant Free Radical Scavenger. Medical Hypotheses, 18:61-77, 1985.) In an article in <http://www.sciencenews.org/sn_arc98/8_1_98/bob2.htm> ScienceNewsOnline, August 1, 1998, the Bacteria in the Stone it is said that Extra-tiny microorganisms may lead to kidney stones and other diseases. Tiny nanobacteria, as small as the larger viruses, live in urine and, by precipitating calcium and other minerals around themselves, induce the formation of kidney stones. It seems that the large doses of ascorbate by causing the excretion of ascorbate in the urine probably kills the nanobacteria and prevents the formation of stones. In addition, the massive doses of ascorbate assist the immune system to kill bacteria within the body but have the ability to kill bacteria by some mechanism, which does not seem to involve the immune system. These bacteria and L-forms of bacteria hide out in cells especially when antibiotics are used and explain some of the resistance acquired by bacteria against antibiotics. I have yet to see bacteria that can become resistant to massive doses of ascorbate in combination with first and second-generation antibiotics. Admittedly in a private practice, I do not see the most resistant bacteria but this combination has been impressive and deserves to be tried against the most resistant bacteria. It may solve the impending problem of increasingly resistant bacteria. See also the med center study indicating that even moderate doses of C prevent kidney stones. <http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve & db=PubMed & list_u ids=8618271 & dopt=Abstract> A prospective study of the intake of vitamins C and B6, and the risk of kidney stones in men. Curhan GC, Willett WC, Rimm EB, Stampfer MJ. Department of Epidemiology, Harvard School of Public Health, Boston, Massachusetts 02115, USA. PURPOSE: The association between the intake of vitamins C and B6, and kidney stone formation was examined. MATERIALS AND METHODS: We conducted a prospective study of the relationship between the intake of vitamins C and B6 and the risk of symptomatic kidney stones in a cohort of 45,251 men 40 to 75 years old with no history of kidney calculi. Vitamin intake from foods and supplements was assessed using a semiquantitative food frequency questionnaire completed in 1986. RESULTS: During 6 years of followup 751 incident cases of kidney stones were documented. Neither vitamin C nor vitamin B6 intake was significantly associated with the risk of stone formation. For vitamin C the age-adjusted relative risk for men consuming 1,500 mg. daily or more compared to less than 250 mg. daily was 0.78 (95% confidence interval 0.54 to 1.11). For vitamin B6 the age-adjusted relative risk for men consuming 40 mg. daily or more compared to less than 3 mg. daily was 0.91 (95% confidence interval 0.64 to 1.31). After adjusting for other potential stone risk factors the relative risks did not change significantly. CONCLUSIONS: These data do not support an association between a high daily intake of vitamin C or vitamin B6 and the risk of stone formation, even when consumed in large doses. PMID: 8618271 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] To subscribe / unsubscribe: chrisgupta@... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 30, 2008 Report Share Posted November 30, 2008 At 03:00 PM 11/30/2008, you wrote: >I have tried several times to give my daughter, high functioning >autism now, Vit. C buffered powder at very small doses & she cannot >tolerate it at all. I read somewhere that it can aggravate an >already existing phenol transferase PST problem & she shos the >symptoms of PT problems ith all fruits & veggies almost. Don't know >how she survived this long without it or how she got better. I mean >really better. In Feb. 2005 her ATEC score was 122 & now it's 20. I >have to give her epsom salts baths & molybdenum & have for 2 yrs. >now off/on. It's a great balance I must juggle. I have tried to use >a ND & homeopathy before but we got caught in this PST probelm. Some >of the ingredients in homeopathic meds have Vit. C no pure homeopathic remedy has Vitamin C in it. >in it. When she takes it, she has burning pee or doesn't pee for >almost a whole day & that's at 1 small pinch. There is almost >nothing I can use for her for foods, soaps ect. because lots of >things contain Vit. C. Anyone know any kids with this problem? I >think they call it a Phase 1 or 2 liver detox enzyme. She is 8yrs. >old now doesn't get vaxed anymore & last time was about 14 mo. old. >Mainstreaming in school. Any help or specific suggestions for this >PST, Vit. C problem would be greatly appreciated. There was a time >she didn't trust any food I gave her. Jenn L Haven't heard of what you describe. May want to go on EOHarm email list and ask there So glad you have come so far Sheri > Excessive Vitamin C Consumption Does Not > Cause Kidney Stones! > > > Your physician will probably never tell you about this so you must fend for > yourself. Read the research! > > Gupta > <http://tinyurl.com/b6ghn> http://tinyurl.com/b6ghn > > See also: > ><http://www.newmediaexplorer.org/chris/2005/09/14/the_stonewalling_of_vitami > n_c.htm> The Stonewalling of Vitamin C > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > ><http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve & db=PubMed & list_u > ids=99218032 & dopt=Citation> Intake of vitamins B6 and C and the risk of > kidney stones in women > Curhan, G. C., Willett, W. C., Speizer, F. E., Stampfer, M. J. > J Am Soc Nephrol 10:4:840-845, Apr 1999 > > Abstract > > Urinary oxalate is an important determinant of calcium oxalate kidney stone > formation. High doses of vitamin B6 may decrease oxalate production, > whereas vitamin C can be metabolized to oxalate. This study was conducted > to examine the association between the intakes of vitamins B6 and C and > risk of kidney stone formation in women. The relation between the intake of > vitamins B6 and C and the risk of symptomatic kidney stones were > prospectively studied in a cohort of 85,557 women with no history of kidney > stones. Semiquantitative food-frequency questionnaires were used to assess > vitamin consumption from both foods and supplements. A total of 1078 > incident cases of kidney stones was documented during the 14-yr follow-up > period. A high intake of vitamin B6 was inversely associated with risk of > stone formation. After adjusting for other dietary factors, the relative > risk of incident stone formation for women in the highest category of B6 > intake (> or =40 mg/d) compared with the lowest category (<3 mg/d) was 0.66 > (95% confidence interval, 0.44 to 0.98). In contrast, vitamin C intake was > not associated with risk. The multivariate relative risk for women in the > highest category of vitamin C intake (> or =1500 mg/d) compared with the > lowest category (<250 mg/d) was 1.06 (95% confidence interval, 0.69 to > 1.64). Large doses of vitamin B6 may reduce the risk of kidney stone > formation in women. Routine restriction of vitamin C to prevent stone > formation appears unwarranted. > > Linus ing was a mentor of mine and a sponsor of the Center for Vitamins > and Cancer Research that I co-founded at the University of Colorado Medical > School in 1980. He was a great supporter of Vitamin C for all that ails > you. There are many recent research papers showing reduction in heart > disease, increased longevity, and so forth from taking more than 10 times > the government recommended amount of Vitamin C. One of the arguments > against taking large amount of Vitamin C was the risk of kidney stones. > That debate has been laid to rest by a large study showing no increase in > kidney stones from Vitamin C and a significant reduction in kidney stones > from increased Vitamin B6. > > The above originally posted by > <http://www.jeffsutherland.org/complementary>Jeff Sutherland > > Why Don't Massive Doses of Ascorbate Produce Kidney Stones? > > Years ago when Linus ing wrote his book " Vitamin C and the Common > Cold " , the critics immediately labeled the taking of large doses of vitamin > C dangerous because it would produce calcium oxalate kidney stones. This > practice of telling people that vitamin C caused kidney stones continues > today by the critics of vitamin C despite the lack of clinical evidence of > kidney stones in people taking vitamin C > > It was hypothesized that since a significant percentage of ascorbate was > metabolized into and excreted as oxalic acid that this oxalic acid should > combine with calcium in the urine and deposit as calcium oxalate kidney > stones. It is true that those of us who take large doses of ascorbate have > elevated oxalic acid in our urine but no kidney stones. With the millions > of people in the world taking vitamin C, if vitamin C caused kidney stones > there would have been a massive epidemic of kidney stones noticed by this > time. There has been none. > > I started using vitamin C in massive doses in-patients in 1969. By the time > I read that ascorbate should cause kidney stones, I had clinical evidence > that it did not cause kidney stones, so I continued prescribing massive > doses to patients. To this day I estimate that I have put 25,000 patients > on massive doses of vitamin C and none have developed kidney stones. Two > patients who had dropped their doses to 500 mg a day developed calcium > oxalate kidney stones. I raised their doses back up to the more massive > doses and added magnesium and B6 to their program and no more kidney > stones. I think that the low doses had no effect and they, by coincidence, > developed the kidney stones because they were not taking enough vitamin C. > > The question remains, however, why do not people taking large doses of > ascorbate develop kidney stones. I had in 1985 hypothesized that one of the > reasons that we did not develop kidney stones was that the ascorbate > excreted in the urine sterilizes the urine and > " <http://www.orthomed.com/nonrate.htm#OXALATE KIDNEY>should prevent many of > the niduses of infection around which oxalate stones frequently form. " > (Cathcart, RF. Vitamin C: the Nontoxic, Nonrate-Limited, Antioxidant Free > Radical Scavenger. Medical Hypotheses, 18:61-77, 1985.) > > In an article in <http://www.sciencenews.org/sn_arc98/8_1_98/bob2.htm> > ScienceNewsOnline, August 1, 1998, the Bacteria in the Stone it is said > that Extra-tiny microorganisms may lead to kidney stones and other > diseases. Tiny nanobacteria, as small as the larger viruses, live in urine > and, by precipitating calcium and other minerals around themselves, induce > the formation of kidney stones. It seems that the large doses of ascorbate > by causing the excretion of ascorbate in the urine probably kills the > nanobacteria and prevents the formation of stones. > > In addition, the massive doses of ascorbate assist the immune system to > kill bacteria within the body but have the ability to kill bacteria by some > mechanism, which does not seem to involve the immune system. These bacteria > and L-forms of bacteria hide out in cells especially when antibiotics are > used and explain some of the resistance acquired by bacteria against > antibiotics. I have yet to see bacteria that can become resistant to > massive doses of ascorbate in combination with first and second-generation > antibiotics. Admittedly in a private practice, I do not see the most > resistant bacteria but this combination has been impressive and deserves to > be tried against the most resistant bacteria. It may solve the impending > problem of increasingly resistant bacteria. > > See also the med center study indicating that even moderate doses of C > prevent kidney stones. > > ><http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve & db=PubMed & list_u > ids=8618271 & dopt=Abstract> A prospective study of the intake of vitamins C > and B6, and the risk of kidney stones in men. > > Curhan GC, Willett WC, Rimm EB, Stampfer MJ. > > Department of Epidemiology, Harvard School of Public Health, Boston, > Massachusetts 02115, USA. > > PURPOSE: The association between the intake of vitamins C and B6, and > kidney stone formation was examined. MATERIALS AND METHODS: We conducted a > prospective study of the relationship between the intake of vitamins C and > B6 and the risk of symptomatic kidney stones in a cohort of 45,251 men 40 > to 75 years old with no history of kidney calculi. Vitamin intake from > foods and supplements was assessed using a semiquantitative food frequency > questionnaire completed in 1986. RESULTS: During 6 years of followup 751 > incident cases of kidney stones were documented. Neither vitamin C nor > vitamin B6 intake was significantly associated with the risk of stone > formation. For vitamin C the age-adjusted relative risk for men consuming > 1,500 mg. daily or more compared to less than 250 mg. daily was 0.78 (95% > confidence interval 0.54 to 1.11). For vitamin B6 the age-adjusted relative > risk for men consuming 40 mg. daily or more compared to less than 3 mg. > daily was 0.91 (95% confidence interval 0.64 to 1.31). After adjusting for > other potential stone risk factors the relative risks did not change > significantly. CONCLUSIONS: These data do not support an association > between a high daily intake of vitamin C or vitamin B6 and the risk of > stone formation, even when consumed in large doses. > > PMID: 8618271 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] > > To subscribe / unsubscribe: chrisgupta@... > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 30, 2008 Report Share Posted November 30, 2008 No ascorbic acid at all? I thought I read that homeopathy uses minerals & vitamins sometimes in their remedies? Jenn L Excessive Vitamin C Consumption Does Not > Cause Kidney Stones! > > > Your physician will probably never tell you about this so you must fend for > yourself. Read the research! > > Gupta > <http://tinyurl.com/b6ghn> http://tinyurl.com/b6ghn > > See also: > ><http://www.newmediaexplorer.org/chris/2005/09/14/the_stonewalling_of_vitami > n_c.htm> The Stonewalling of Vitamin C > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > ><http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve & db=PubMed & list_u > ids=99218032 & dopt=Citation> Intake of vitamins B6 and C and the risk of > kidney stones in women > Curhan, G. C., Willett, W. C., Speizer, F. E., Stampfer, M. J. > J Am Soc Nephrol 10:4:840-845, Apr 1999 > > Abstract > > Urinary oxalate is an important determinant of calcium oxalate kidney stone > formation. High doses of vitamin B6 may decrease oxalate production, > whereas vitamin C can be metabolized to oxalate. This study was conducted > to examine the association between the intakes of vitamins B6 and C and > risk of kidney stone formation in women. The relation between the intake of > vitamins B6 and C and the risk of symptomatic kidney stones were > prospectively studied in a cohort of 85,557 women with no history of kidney > stones. Semiquantitative food-frequency questionnaires were used to assess > vitamin consumption from both foods and supplements. A total of 1078 > incident cases of kidney stones was documented during the 14-yr follow-up > period. A high intake of vitamin B6 was inversely associated with risk of > stone formation. After adjusting for other dietary factors, the relative > risk of incident stone formation for women in the highest category of B6 > intake (> or =40 mg/d) compared with the lowest category (<3 mg/d) was 0.66 > (95% confidence interval, 0.44 to 0.98). In contrast, vitamin C intake was > not associated with risk. The multivariate relative risk for women in the > highest category of vitamin C intake (> or =1500 mg/d) compared with the > lowest category (<250 mg/d) was 1.06 (95% confidence interval, 0.69 to > 1.64). Large doses of vitamin B6 may reduce the risk of kidney stone > formation in women. Routine restriction of vitamin C to prevent stone > formation appears unwarranted. > > Linus ing was a mentor of mine and a sponsor of the Center for Vitamins > and Cancer Research that I co-founded at the University of Colorado Medical > School in 1980. He was a great supporter of Vitamin C for all that ails > you. There are many recent research papers showing reduction in heart > disease, increased longevity, and so forth from taking more than 10 times > the government recommended amount of Vitamin C. One of the arguments > against taking large amount of Vitamin C was the risk of kidney stones. > That debate has been laid to rest by a large study showing no increase in > kidney stones from Vitamin C and a significant reduction in kidney stones > from increased Vitamin B6. > > The above originally posted by > <http://www.jeffsutherland.org/complementary>Jeff Sutherland > > Why Don't Massive Doses of Ascorbate Produce Kidney Stones? > > Years ago when Linus ing wrote his book " Vitamin C and the Common > Cold " , the critics immediately labeled the taking of large doses of vitamin > C dangerous because it would produce calcium oxalate kidney stones. This > practice of telling people that vitamin C caused kidney stones continues > today by the critics of vitamin C despite the lack of clinical evidence of > kidney stones in people taking vitamin C > > It was hypothesized that since a significant percentage of ascorbate was > metabolized into and excreted as oxalic acid that this oxalic acid should > combine with calcium in the urine and deposit as calcium oxalate kidney > stones. It is true that those of us who take large doses of ascorbate have > elevated oxalic acid in our urine but no kidney stones. With the millions > of people in the world taking vitamin C, if vitamin C caused kidney stones > there would have been a massive epidemic of kidney stones noticed by this > time. There has been none. > > I started using vitamin C in massive doses in-patients in 1969. By the time > I read that ascorbate should cause kidney stones, I had clinical evidence > that it did not cause kidney stones, so I continued prescribing massive > doses to patients. To this day I estimate that I have put 25,000 patients > on massive doses of vitamin C and none have developed kidney stones. Two > patients who had dropped their doses to 500 mg a day developed calcium > oxalate kidney stones. I raised their doses back up to the more massive > doses and added magnesium and B6 to their program and no more kidney > stones. I think that the low doses had no effect and they, by coincidence, > developed the kidney stones because they were not taking enough vitamin C. > > The question remains, however, why do not people taking large doses of > ascorbate develop kidney stones. I had in 1985 hypothesized that one of the > reasons that we did not develop kidney stones was that the ascorbate > excreted in the urine sterilizes the urine and > " <http://www.orthomed.com/nonrate.htm#OXALATE KIDNEY>should prevent many of > the niduses of infection around which oxalate stones frequently form. " > (Cathcart, RF. Vitamin C: the Nontoxic, Nonrate-Limited, Antioxidant Free > Radical Scavenger. Medical Hypotheses, 18:61-77, 1985.) > > In an article in <http://www.sciencenews.org/sn_arc98/8_1_98/bob2.htm> > ScienceNewsOnline, August 1, 1998, the Bacteria in the Stone it is said > that Extra-tiny microorganisms may lead to kidney stones and other > diseases. Tiny nanobacteria, as small as the larger viruses, live in urine > and, by precipitating calcium and other minerals around themselves, induce > the formation of kidney stones. It seems that the large doses of ascorbate > by causing the excretion of ascorbate in the urine probably kills the > nanobacteria and prevents the formation of stones. > > In addition, the massive doses of ascorbate assist the immune system to > kill bacteria within the body but have the ability to kill bacteria by some > mechanism, which does not seem to involve the immune system. These bacteria > and L-forms of bacteria hide out in cells especially when antibiotics are > used and explain some of the resistance acquired by bacteria against > antibiotics. I have yet to see bacteria that can become resistant to > massive doses of ascorbate in combination with first and second-generation > antibiotics. Admittedly in a private practice, I do not see the most > resistant bacteria but this combination has been impressive and deserves to > be tried against the most resistant bacteria. It may solve the impending > problem of increasingly resistant bacteria. > > See also the med center study indicating that even moderate doses of C > prevent kidney stones. > > ><http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve & db=PubMed & list_u > ids=8618271 & dopt=Abstract> A prospective study of the intake of vitamins C > and B6, and the risk of kidney stones in men. > > Curhan GC, Willett WC, Rimm EB, Stampfer MJ. > > Department of Epidemiology, Harvard School of Public Health, Boston, > Massachusetts 02115, USA. > > PURPOSE: The association between the intake of vitamins C and B6, and > kidney stone formation was examined. MATERIALS AND METHODS: We conducted a > prospective study of the relationship between the intake of vitamins C and > B6 and the risk of symptomatic kidney stones in a cohort of 45,251 men 40 > to 75 years old with no history of kidney calculi. Vitamin intake from > foods and supplements was assessed using a semiquantitative food frequency > questionnaire completed in 1986. RESULTS: During 6 years of followup 751 > incident cases of kidney stones were documented. Neither vitamin C nor > vitamin B6 intake was significantly associated with the risk of stone > formation. For vitamin C the age-adjusted relative risk for men consuming > 1,500 mg. daily or more compared to less than 250 mg. daily was 0.78 (95% > confidence interval 0.54 to 1.11). For vitamin B6 the age-adjusted relative > risk for men consuming 40 mg. daily or more compared to less than 3 mg. > daily was 0.91 (95% confidence interval 0.64 to 1.31). After adjusting for > other potential stone risk factors the relative risks did not change > significantly. CONCLUSIONS: These data do not support an association > between a high daily intake of vitamin C or vitamin B6 and the risk of > stone formation, even when consumed in large doses. > > PMID: 8618271 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] > > To subscribe / unsubscribe: chrisgupta@... > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 30, 2008 Report Share Posted November 30, 2008 Yes. I am back to work here trying to learn more too now. I am happy to be here. Thank you for your response. I will post theirs about this issue if I get one. Jenn L Excessive Vitamin C Consumption Does Not > Cause Kidney Stones! > > > Your physician will probably never tell you about this so you must fend for > yourself. Read the research! > > Gupta > <http://tinyurl.com/b6ghn> http://tinyurl.com/b6ghn > > See also: > ><http://www.newmediaexplorer.org/chris/2005/09/14/the_stonewalling_of_vitami > n_c.htm> The Stonewalling of Vitamin C > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > ><http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve & db=PubMed & list_u > ids=99218032 & dopt=Citation> Intake of vitamins B6 and C and the risk of > kidney stones in women > Curhan, G. C., Willett, W. C., Speizer, F. E., Stampfer, M. J. > J Am Soc Nephrol 10:4:840-845, Apr 1999 > > Abstract > > Urinary oxalate is an important determinant of calcium oxalate kidney stone > formation. High doses of vitamin B6 may decrease oxalate production, > whereas vitamin C can be metabolized to oxalate. This study was conducted > to examine the association between the intakes of vitamins B6 and C and > risk of kidney stone formation in women. The relation between the intake of > vitamins B6 and C and the risk of symptomatic kidney stones were > prospectively studied in a cohort of 85,557 women with no history of kidney > stones. Semiquantitative food-frequency questionnaires were used to assess > vitamin consumption from both foods and supplements. A total of 1078 > incident cases of kidney stones was documented during the 14-yr follow-up > period. A high intake of vitamin B6 was inversely associated with risk of > stone formation. After adjusting for other dietary factors, the relative > risk of incident stone formation for women in the highest category of B6 > intake (> or =40 mg/d) compared with the lowest category (<3 mg/d) was 0.66 > (95% confidence interval, 0.44 to 0.98). In contrast, vitamin C intake was > not associated with risk. The multivariate relative risk for women in the > highest category of vitamin C intake (> or =1500 mg/d) compared with the > lowest category (<250 mg/d) was 1.06 (95% confidence interval, 0.69 to > 1.64). Large doses of vitamin B6 may reduce the risk of kidney stone > formation in women. Routine restriction of vitamin C to prevent stone > formation appears unwarranted. > > Linus ing was a mentor of mine and a sponsor of the Center for Vitamins > and Cancer Research that I co-founded at the University of Colorado Medical > School in 1980. He was a great supporter of Vitamin C for all that ails > you. There are many recent research papers showing reduction in heart > disease, increased longevity, and so forth from taking more than 10 times > the government recommended amount of Vitamin C. One of the arguments > against taking large amount of Vitamin C was the risk of kidney stones. > That debate has been laid to rest by a large study showing no increase in > kidney stones from Vitamin C and a significant reduction in kidney stones > from increased Vitamin B6. > > The above originally posted by > <http://www.jeffsutherland.org/complementary>Jeff Sutherland > > Why Don't Massive Doses of Ascorbate Produce Kidney Stones? > > Years ago when Linus ing wrote his book " Vitamin C and the Common > Cold " , the critics immediately labeled the taking of large doses of vitamin > C dangerous because it would produce calcium oxalate kidney stones. This > practice of telling people that vitamin C caused kidney stones continues > today by the critics of vitamin C despite the lack of clinical evidence of > kidney stones in people taking vitamin C > > It was hypothesized that since a significant percentage of ascorbate was > metabolized into and excreted as oxalic acid that this oxalic acid should > combine with calcium in the urine and deposit as calcium oxalate kidney > stones. It is true that those of us who take large doses of ascorbate have > elevated oxalic acid in our urine but no kidney stones. With the millions > of people in the world taking vitamin C, if vitamin C caused kidney stones > there would have been a massive epidemic of kidney stones noticed by this > time. There has been none. > > I started using vitamin C in massive doses in-patients in 1969. By the time > I read that ascorbate should cause kidney stones, I had clinical evidence > that it did not cause kidney stones, so I continued prescribing massive > doses to patients. To this day I estimate that I have put 25,000 patients > on massive doses of vitamin C and none have developed kidney stones. Two > patients who had dropped their doses to 500 mg a day developed calcium > oxalate kidney stones. I raised their doses back up to the more massive > doses and added magnesium and B6 to their program and no more kidney > stones. I think that the low doses had no effect and they, by coincidence, > developed the kidney stones because they were not taking enough vitamin C. > > The question remains, however, why do not people taking large doses of > ascorbate develop kidney stones. I had in 1985 hypothesized that one of the > reasons that we did not develop kidney stones was that the ascorbate > excreted in the urine sterilizes the urine and > " <http://www.orthomed.com/nonrate.htm#OXALATE KIDNEY>should prevent many of > the niduses of infection around which oxalate stones frequently form. " > (Cathcart, RF. Vitamin C: the Nontoxic, Nonrate-Limited, Antioxidant Free > Radical Scavenger. Medical Hypotheses, 18:61-77, 1985.) > > In an article in <http://www.sciencenews.org/sn_arc98/8_1_98/bob2.htm> > ScienceNewsOnline, August 1, 1998, the Bacteria in the Stone it is said > that Extra-tiny microorganisms may lead to kidney stones and other > diseases. Tiny nanobacteria, as small as the larger viruses, live in urine > and, by precipitating calcium and other minerals around themselves, induce > the formation of kidney stones. It seems that the large doses of ascorbate > by causing the excretion of ascorbate in the urine probably kills the > nanobacteria and prevents the formation of stones. > > In addition, the massive doses of ascorbate assist the immune system to > kill bacteria within the body but have the ability to kill bacteria by some > mechanism, which does not seem to involve the immune system. These bacteria > and L-forms of bacteria hide out in cells especially when antibiotics are > used and explain some of the resistance acquired by bacteria against > antibiotics. I have yet to see bacteria that can become resistant to > massive doses of ascorbate in combination with first and second-generation > antibiotics. Admittedly in a private practice, I do not see the most > resistant bacteria but this combination has been impressive and deserves to > be tried against the most resistant bacteria. It may solve the impending > problem of increasingly resistant bacteria. > > See also the med center study indicating that even moderate doses of C > prevent kidney stones. > > ><http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve & db=PubMed & list_u > ids=8618271 & dopt=Abstract> A prospective study of the intake of vitamins C > and B6, and the risk of kidney stones in men. > > Curhan GC, Willett WC, Rimm EB, Stampfer MJ. > > Department of Epidemiology, Harvard School of Public Health, Boston, > Massachusetts 02115, USA. > > PURPOSE: The association between the intake of vitamins C and B6, and > kidney stone formation was examined. MATERIALS AND METHODS: We conducted a > prospective study of the relationship between the intake of vitamins C and > B6 and the risk of symptomatic kidney stones in a cohort of 45,251 men 40 > to 75 years old with no history of kidney calculi. Vitamin intake from > foods and supplements was assessed using a semiquantitative food frequency > questionnaire completed in 1986. RESULTS: During 6 years of followup 751 > incident cases of kidney stones were documented. Neither vitamin C nor > vitamin B6 intake was significantly associated with the risk of stone > formation. For vitamin C the age-adjusted relative risk for men consuming > 1,500 mg. daily or more compared to less than 250 mg. daily was 0.78 (95% > confidence interval 0.54 to 1.11). For vitamin B6 the age-adjusted relative > risk for men consuming 40 mg. daily or more compared to less than 3 mg. > daily was 0.91 (95% confidence interval 0.64 to 1.31). After adjusting for > other potential stone risk factors the relative risks did not change > significantly. CONCLUSIONS: These data do not support an association > between a high daily intake of vitamin C or vitamin B6 and the risk of > stone formation, even when consumed in large doses. > > PMID: 8618271 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] > > To subscribe / unsubscribe: chrisgupta@... > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 30, 2008 Report Share Posted November 30, 2008 I think the B6 deficiency commonly seen in oxalate stones is what ties it to the PST issue, but it has been so long since I've looked at my notes on PST I can't say for sure. I know B2, which is needed to absorb B6, has implications in the PST system and B2 is poorly absorbed in hypothyroidism. On another note, I have heard Arginine is excellent for pain on urination. -Lana " There is nothing more useful than sun and salt. " - Latin proverb On Sun, Nov 30, 2008 at 3:00 PM, J lessard <jlessard1@...> wrote: > I have tried several times to give my daughter, high functioning autism > now, Vit. C buffered powder at very small doses & she cannot tolerate it at > all. I read somewhere that it can aggravate an already existing phenol > transferase PST problem & she shos the symptoms of PT problems ith all > fruits & veggies almost. Don't know how she survived this long without it or > how she got better. I mean really better. In Feb. 2005 her ATEC score was > 122 & now it's 20. I have to give her epsom salts baths & molybdenum & have > for 2 yrs. now off/on. It's a great balance I must juggle. I have tried to > use a ND & homeopathy before but we got caught in this PST probelm. Some of > the ingredients in homeopathic meds have Vit. C in it. When she takes it, > she has burning pee or doesn't pee for almost a whole day & that's at 1 > small pinch. There is almost nothing I can use for her for foods, soaps ect. > because lots of things contain Vit. C. Anyone know any kids with this > problem? I think they call it a Phase 1 or 2 liver detox enzyme. She is > 8yrs. old now doesn't get vaxed anymore & last time was about 14 mo. old. > Mainstreaming in school. Any help or specific suggestions for this PST, Vit. > C problem would be greatly appreciated. There was a time she didn't trust > any food I gave her. Jenn L Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 30, 2008 Report Share Posted November 30, 2008 At 04:40 PM 11/30/2008, you wrote: >No ascorbic acid at all? I thought I read that homeopathy uses >minerals & vitamins sometimes in their remedies? Jenn L No - the remedy is ONLY the substance of the remedy Sometimes a remedy is made from a mineral - like calcium carbonate and others But minerals are not in remedies of other substances, nor are vitamins Sheri > Excessive Vitamin C Consumption Does Not > > Cause Kidney Stones! > > > > > > Your physician will probably never tell you about this so you > must fend for > > yourself. Read the research! > > > > Gupta > > <http://tinyurl.com/b6ghn> http://tinyurl.com/b6ghn > > > > See also: > > > > ><http://www.newmediaexplorer.org/chris/2005/09/14/the_stonewalling_of_vitami > > n_c.htm> The Stonewalling of Vitamin C > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > ><http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve & db=PubMed & list_u > > ids=99218032 & dopt=Citation> Intake of vitamins B6 and C and the risk of > > kidney stones in women > > Curhan, G. C., Willett, W. C., Speizer, F. E., Stampfer, M. J. > > J Am Soc Nephrol 10:4:840-845, Apr 1999 > > > > Abstract > > > > Urinary oxalate is an important determinant of calcium oxalate > kidney stone > > formation. High doses of vitamin B6 may decrease oxalate production, > > whereas vitamin C can be metabolized to oxalate. This study was conducted > > to examine the association between the intakes of vitamins B6 and C and > > risk of kidney stone formation in women. The relation between > the intake of > > vitamins B6 and C and the risk of symptomatic kidney stones were > > prospectively studied in a cohort of 85,557 women with no > history of kidney > > stones. Semiquantitative food-frequency questionnaires were > used to assess > > vitamin consumption from both foods and supplements. A total of 1078 > > incident cases of kidney stones was documented during the 14-yr follow-up > > period. A high intake of vitamin B6 was inversely associated with risk of > > stone formation. After adjusting for other dietary factors, the relative > > risk of incident stone formation for women in the highest category of B6 > > intake (> or =40 mg/d) compared with the lowest category (<3 > mg/d) was 0.66 > > (95% confidence interval, 0.44 to 0.98). In contrast, vitamin C > intake was > > not associated with risk. The multivariate relative risk for women in the > > highest category of vitamin C intake (> or =1500 mg/d) compared with the > > lowest category (<250 mg/d) was 1.06 (95% confidence interval, 0.69 to > > 1.64). Large doses of vitamin B6 may reduce the risk of kidney stone > > formation in women. Routine restriction of vitamin C to prevent stone > > formation appears unwarranted. > > > > Linus ing was a mentor of mine and a sponsor of the Center > for Vitamins > > and Cancer Research that I co-founded at the University of > Colorado Medical > > School in 1980. He was a great supporter of Vitamin C for all that ails > > you. There are many recent research papers showing reduction in heart > > disease, increased longevity, and so forth from taking more than 10 times > > the government recommended amount of Vitamin C. One of the arguments > > against taking large amount of Vitamin C was the risk of kidney stones. > > That debate has been laid to rest by a large study showing no increase in > > kidney stones from Vitamin C and a significant reduction in kidney stones > > from increased Vitamin B6. > > > > The above originally posted by > > <http://www.jeffsutherland.org/complementary>Jeff Sutherland > > > > Why Don't Massive Doses of Ascorbate Produce Kidney Stones? > > > > Years ago when Linus ing wrote his book " Vitamin C and the Common > > Cold " , the critics immediately labeled the taking of large > doses of vitamin > > C dangerous because it would produce calcium oxalate kidney stones. This > > practice of telling people that vitamin C caused kidney stones continues > > today by the critics of vitamin C despite the lack of clinical > evidence of > > kidney stones in people taking vitamin C > > > > It was hypothesized that since a significant percentage of ascorbate was > > metabolized into and excreted as oxalic acid that this oxalic acid should > > combine with calcium in the urine and deposit as calcium oxalate kidney > > stones. It is true that those of us who take large doses of > ascorbate have > > elevated oxalic acid in our urine but no kidney stones. With the millions > > of people in the world taking vitamin C, if vitamin C caused > kidney stones > > there would have been a massive epidemic of kidney stones noticed by this > > time. There has been none. > > > > I started using vitamin C in massive doses in-patients in 1969. > By the time > > I read that ascorbate should cause kidney stones, I had clinical evidence > > that it did not cause kidney stones, so I continued prescribing massive > > doses to patients. To this day I estimate that I have put 25,000 patients > > on massive doses of vitamin C and none have developed kidney stones. Two > > patients who had dropped their doses to 500 mg a day developed calcium > > oxalate kidney stones. I raised their doses back up to the more massive > > doses and added magnesium and B6 to their program and no more kidney > > stones. I think that the low doses had no effect and they, by > coincidence, > > developed the kidney stones because they were not taking enough > vitamin C. > > > > The question remains, however, why do not people taking large doses of > > ascorbate develop kidney stones. I had in 1985 hypothesized > that one of the > > reasons that we did not develop kidney stones was that the ascorbate > > excreted in the urine sterilizes the urine and > > " <http://www.orthomed.com/nonrate.htm#OXALATE KIDNEY>should > prevent many of > > the niduses of infection around which oxalate stones frequently form. " > > (Cathcart, RF. Vitamin C: the Nontoxic, Nonrate-Limited, Antioxidant Free > > Radical Scavenger. Medical Hypotheses, 18:61-77, 1985.) > > > > In an article in <http://www.sciencenews.org/sn_arc98/8_1_98/bob2.htm> > > ScienceNewsOnline, August 1, 1998, the Bacteria in the Stone it is said > > that Extra-tiny microorganisms may lead to kidney stones and other > > diseases. Tiny nanobacteria, as small as the larger viruses, > live in urine > > and, by precipitating calcium and other minerals around > themselves, induce > > the formation of kidney stones. It seems that the large doses > of ascorbate > > by causing the excretion of ascorbate in the urine probably kills the > > nanobacteria and prevents the formation of stones. > > > > In addition, the massive doses of ascorbate assist the immune system to > > kill bacteria within the body but have the ability to kill > bacteria by some > > mechanism, which does not seem to involve the immune system. > These bacteria > > and L-forms of bacteria hide out in cells especially when antibiotics are > > used and explain some of the resistance acquired by bacteria against > > antibiotics. I have yet to see bacteria that can become resistant to > > massive doses of ascorbate in combination with first and > second-generation > > antibiotics. Admittedly in a private practice, I do not see the most > > resistant bacteria but this combination has been impressive and > deserves to > > be tried against the most resistant bacteria. It may solve the impending > > problem of increasingly resistant bacteria. > > > > See also the med center study indicating that even moderate doses of C > > prevent kidney stones. > > > > > > ><http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve & db=PubMed & list_u > > ids=8618271 & dopt=Abstract> A prospective study of the intake of > vitamins C > > and B6, and the risk of kidney stones in men. > > > > Curhan GC, Willett WC, Rimm EB, Stampfer MJ. > > > > Department of Epidemiology, Harvard School of Public Health, Boston, > > Massachusetts 02115, USA. > > > > PURPOSE: The association between the intake of vitamins C and B6, and > > kidney stone formation was examined. MATERIALS AND METHODS: We > conducted a > > prospective study of the relationship between the intake of > vitamins C and > > B6 and the risk of symptomatic kidney stones in a cohort of 45,251 men 40 > > to 75 years old with no history of kidney calculi. Vitamin intake from > > foods and supplements was assessed using a semiquantitative > food frequency > > questionnaire completed in 1986. RESULTS: During 6 years of followup 751 > > incident cases of kidney stones were documented. Neither vitamin C nor > > vitamin B6 intake was significantly associated with the risk of stone > > formation. For vitamin C the age-adjusted relative risk for men consuming > > 1,500 mg. daily or more compared to less than 250 mg. daily was 0.78 (95% > > confidence interval 0.54 to 1.11). For vitamin B6 the > age-adjusted relative > > risk for men consuming 40 mg. daily or more compared to less than 3 mg. > > daily was 0.91 (95% confidence interval 0.64 to 1.31). After > adjusting for > > other potential stone risk factors the relative risks did not change > > significantly. CONCLUSIONS: These data do not support an association > > between a high daily intake of vitamin C or vitamin B6 and the risk of > > stone formation, even when consumed in large doses. > > > > PMID: 8618271 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] > > > > To subscribe / unsubscribe: chrisgupta@... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 30, 2008 Report Share Posted November 30, 2008 I am trying to get on the other group Sheri sent me to to ask my question about Vit. C & PST but I haven't gotten okd for my request to join that group yet. Maybe by morning. Jenn L Re: Excessive Vitamin C Consumption Does Not Cause Kidney Stones! I think the B6 deficiency commonly seen in oxalate stones is what ties it to the PST issue, but it has been so long since I've looked at my notes on PST I can't say for sure. I know B2, which is needed to absorb B6, has implications in the PST system and B2 is poorly absorbed in hypothyroidism. On another note, I have heard Arginine is excellent for pain on urination. -Lana " There is nothing more useful than sun and salt. " - Latin proverb On Sun, Nov 30, 2008 at 3:00 PM, J lessard <jlessard1@...> wrote: > I have tried several times to give my daughter, high functioning autism > now, Vit. C buffered powder at very small doses & she cannot tolerate it at > all. I read somewhere that it can aggravate an already existing phenol > transferase PST problem & she shos the symptoms of PT problems ith all > fruits & veggies almost. Don't know how she survived this long without it or > how she got better. I mean really better. In Feb. 2005 her ATEC score was > 122 & now it's 20. I have to give her epsom salts baths & molybdenum & have > for 2 yrs. now off/on. It's a great balance I must juggle. I have tried to > use a ND & homeopathy before but we got caught in this PST probelm. Some of > the ingredients in homeopathic meds have Vit. C in it. When she takes it, > she has burning pee or doesn't pee for almost a whole day & that's at 1 > small pinch. There is almost nothing I can use for her for foods, soaps ect. > because lots of things contain Vit. C. Anyone know any kids with this > problem? I think they call it a Phase 1 or 2 liver detox enzyme. She is > 8yrs. old now doesn't get vaxed anymore & last time was about 14 mo. old. > Mainstreaming in school. Any help or specific suggestions for this PST, Vit. > C problem would be greatly appreciated. There was a time she didn't trust > any food I gave her. Jenn L Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 30, 2008 Report Share Posted November 30, 2008 heri, Thank you for this info. My daughter cannot take calcium either. Very small amts in foods + Vit. D3 & K2 sometimes. Jenn L Excessive Vitamin C Consumption Does Not > > Cause Kidney Stones! > > > > > > Your physician will probably never tell you about this so you > must fend for > > yourself. Read the research! > > > > Gupta > > <http://tinyurl.com/b6ghn> http://tinyurl.com/b6ghn > > > > See also: > > > > ><http://www.newmediaexplorer.org/chris/2005/09/14/the_stonewalling_of_vitami > > n_c.htm> The Stonewalling of Vitamin C > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > ><http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve & db=PubMed & list_u > > ids=99218032 & dopt=Citation> Intake of vitamins B6 and C and the risk of > > kidney stones in women > > Curhan, G. C., Willett, W. C., Speizer, F. E., Stampfer, M. J. > > J Am Soc Nephrol 10:4:840-845, Apr 1999 > > > > Abstract > > > > Urinary oxalate is an important determinant of calcium oxalate > kidney stone > > formation. High doses of vitamin B6 may decrease oxalate production, > > whereas vitamin C can be metabolized to oxalate. This study was conducted > > to examine the association between the intakes of vitamins B6 and C and > > risk of kidney stone formation in women. The relation between > the intake of > > vitamins B6 and C and the risk of symptomatic kidney stones were > > prospectively studied in a cohort of 85,557 women with no > history of kidney > > stones. Semiquantitative food-frequency questionnaires were > used to assess > > vitamin consumption from both foods and supplements. A total of 1078 > > incident cases of kidney stones was documented during the 14-yr follow-up > > period. A high intake of vitamin B6 was inversely associated with risk of > > stone formation. After adjusting for other dietary factors, the relative > > risk of incident stone formation for women in the highest category of B6 > > intake (> or =40 mg/d) compared with the lowest category (<3 > mg/d) was 0.66 > > (95% confidence interval, 0.44 to 0.98). In contrast, vitamin C > intake was > > not associated with risk. The multivariate relative risk for women in the > > highest category of vitamin C intake (> or =1500 mg/d) compared with the > > lowest category (<250 mg/d) was 1.06 (95% confidence interval, 0.69 to > > 1.64). Large doses of vitamin B6 may reduce the risk of kidney stone > > formation in women. Routine restriction of vitamin C to prevent stone > > formation appears unwarranted. > > > > Linus ing was a mentor of mine and a sponsor of the Center > for Vitamins > > and Cancer Research that I co-founded at the University of > Colorado Medical > > School in 1980. He was a great supporter of Vitamin C for all that ails > > you. There are many recent research papers showing reduction in heart > > disease, increased longevity, and so forth from taking more than 10 times > > the government recommended amount of Vitamin C. One of the arguments > > against taking large amount of Vitamin C was the risk of kidney stones. > > That debate has been laid to rest by a large study showing no increase in > > kidney stones from Vitamin C and a significant reduction in kidney stones > > from increased Vitamin B6. > > > > The above originally posted by > > <http://www.jeffsutherland.org/complementary>Jeff Sutherland > > > > Why Don't Massive Doses of Ascorbate Produce Kidney Stones? > > > > Years ago when Linus ing wrote his book " Vitamin C and the Common > > Cold " , the critics immediately labeled the taking of large > doses of vitamin > > C dangerous because it would produce calcium oxalate kidney stones. This > > practice of telling people that vitamin C caused kidney stones continues > > today by the critics of vitamin C despite the lack of clinical > evidence of > > kidney stones in people taking vitamin C > > > > It was hypothesized that since a significant percentage of ascorbate was > > metabolized into and excreted as oxalic acid that this oxalic acid should > > combine with calcium in the urine and deposit as calcium oxalate kidney > > stones. It is true that those of us who take large doses of > ascorbate have > > elevated oxalic acid in our urine but no kidney stones. With the millions > > of people in the world taking vitamin C, if vitamin C caused > kidney stones > > there would have been a massive epidemic of kidney stones noticed by this > > time. There has been none. > > > > I started using vitamin C in massive doses in-patients in 1969. > By the time > > I read that ascorbate should cause kidney stones, I had clinical evidence > > that it did not cause kidney stones, so I continued prescribing massive > > doses to patients. To this day I estimate that I have put 25,000 patients > > on massive doses of vitamin C and none have developed kidney stones. Two > > patients who had dropped their doses to 500 mg a day developed calcium > > oxalate kidney stones. I raised their doses back up to the more massive > > doses and added magnesium and B6 to their program and no more kidney > > stones. I think that the low doses had no effect and they, by > coincidence, > > developed the kidney stones because they were not taking enough > vitamin C. > > > > The question remains, however, why do not people taking large doses of > > ascorbate develop kidney stones. I had in 1985 hypothesized > that one of the > > reasons that we did not develop kidney stones was that the ascorbate > > excreted in the urine sterilizes the urine and > > " <http://www.orthomed.com/nonrate.htm#OXALATE KIDNEY>should > prevent many of > > the niduses of infection around which oxalate stones frequently form. " > > (Cathcart, RF. Vitamin C: the Nontoxic, Nonrate-Limited, Antioxidant Free > > Radical Scavenger. Medical Hypotheses, 18:61-77, 1985.) > > > > In an article in <http://www.sciencenews.org/sn_arc98/8_1_98/bob2.htm> > > ScienceNewsOnline, August 1, 1998, the Bacteria in the Stone it is said > > that Extra-tiny microorganisms may lead to kidney stones and other > > diseases. Tiny nanobacteria, as small as the larger viruses, > live in urine > > and, by precipitating calcium and other minerals around > themselves, induce > > the formation of kidney stones. It seems that the large doses > of ascorbate > > by causing the excretion of ascorbate in the urine probably kills the > > nanobacteria and prevents the formation of stones. > > > > In addition, the massive doses of ascorbate assist the immune system to > > kill bacteria within the body but have the ability to kill > bacteria by some > > mechanism, which does not seem to involve the immune system. > These bacteria > > and L-forms of bacteria hide out in cells especially when antibiotics are > > used and explain some of the resistance acquired by bacteria against > > antibiotics. I have yet to see bacteria that can become resistant to > > massive doses of ascorbate in combination with first and > second-generation > > antibiotics. Admittedly in a private practice, I do not see the most > > resistant bacteria but this combination has been impressive and > deserves to > > be tried against the most resistant bacteria. It may solve the impending > > problem of increasingly resistant bacteria. > > > > See also the med center study indicating that even moderate doses of C > > prevent kidney stones. > > > > > > ><http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve & db=PubMed & list_u > > ids=8618271 & dopt=Abstract> A prospective study of the intake of > vitamins C > > and B6, and the risk of kidney stones in men. > > > > Curhan GC, Willett WC, Rimm EB, Stampfer MJ. > > > > Department of Epidemiology, Harvard School of Public Health, Boston, > > Massachusetts 02115, USA. > > > > PURPOSE: The association between the intake of vitamins C and B6, and > > kidney stone formation was examined. MATERIALS AND METHODS: We > conducted a > > prospective study of the relationship between the intake of > vitamins C and > > B6 and the risk of symptomatic kidney stones in a cohort of 45,251 men 40 > > to 75 years old with no history of kidney calculi. Vitamin intake from > > foods and supplements was assessed using a semiquantitative > food frequency > > questionnaire completed in 1986. RESULTS: During 6 years of followup 751 > > incident cases of kidney stones were documented. Neither vitamin C nor > > vitamin B6 intake was significantly associated with the risk of stone > > formation. For vitamin C the age-adjusted relative risk for men consuming > > 1,500 mg. daily or more compared to less than 250 mg. daily was 0.78 (95% > > confidence interval 0.54 to 1.11). For vitamin B6 the > age-adjusted relative > > risk for men consuming 40 mg. daily or more compared to less than 3 mg. > > daily was 0.91 (95% confidence interval 0.64 to 1.31). After > adjusting for > > other potential stone risk factors the relative risks did not change > > significantly. CONCLUSIONS: These data do not support an association > > between a high daily intake of vitamin C or vitamin B6 and the risk of > > stone formation, even when consumed in large doses. > > > > PMID: 8618271 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] > > > > To subscribe / unsubscribe: chrisgupta@... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 1, 2008 Report Share Posted December 1, 2008 well, homeopathic calcium carbonate would be a very different thing At 09:19 PM 11/30/2008, you wrote: >heri, > Thank you for this info. My daughter cannot take calcium either. > Very small amts in foods + Vit. D3 & K2 sometimes. >Jenn L > Excessive Vitamin C Consumption Does Not > > > Cause Kidney Stones! > > > > > > > > > Your physician will probably never tell you about this so you > > must fend for > > > yourself. Read the research! > > > > > > Gupta > > > <http://tinyurl.com/b6ghn> http://tinyurl.com/b6ghn > > > > > > See also: > > > > > > > > ><http://www.newmediaexplorer.org/chris/2005/09/14/the_stonewalli >ng_of_vitami > > > n_c.htm> The Stonewalling of Vitamin C > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > > ><http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve & db=P >ubMed & list_u > > > ids=99218032 & dopt=Citation> Intake of vitamins B6 and C and the risk of > > > kidney stones in women > > > Curhan, G. C., Willett, W. C., Speizer, F. E., Stampfer, M. J. > > > J Am Soc Nephrol 10:4:840-845, Apr 1999 > > > > > > Abstract > > > > > > Urinary oxalate is an important determinant of calcium oxalate > > kidney stone > > > formation. High doses of vitamin B6 may decrease oxalate production, > > > whereas vitamin C can be metabolized to oxalate. This study > was conducted > > > to examine the association between the intakes of vitamins B6 and C and > > > risk of kidney stone formation in women. The relation between > > the intake of > > > vitamins B6 and C and the risk of symptomatic kidney stones were > > > prospectively studied in a cohort of 85,557 women with no > > history of kidney > > > stones. Semiquantitative food-frequency questionnaires were > > used to assess > > > vitamin consumption from both foods and supplements. A total of 1078 > > > incident cases of kidney stones was documented during the > 14-yr follow-up > > > period. A high intake of vitamin B6 was inversely associated > with risk of > > > stone formation. After adjusting for other dietary factors, > the relative > > > risk of incident stone formation for women in the highest > category of B6 > > > intake (> or =40 mg/d) compared with the lowest category (<3 > > mg/d) was 0.66 > > > (95% confidence interval, 0.44 to 0.98). In contrast, vitamin C > > intake was > > > not associated with risk. The multivariate relative risk for > women in the > > > highest category of vitamin C intake (> or =1500 mg/d) > compared with the > > > lowest category (<250 mg/d) was 1.06 (95% confidence interval, 0.69 to > > > 1.64). Large doses of vitamin B6 may reduce the risk of kidney stone > > > formation in women. Routine restriction of vitamin C to prevent stone > > > formation appears unwarranted. > > > > > > Linus ing was a mentor of mine and a sponsor of the Center > > for Vitamins > > > and Cancer Research that I co-founded at the University of > > Colorado Medical > > > School in 1980. He was a great supporter of Vitamin C for all that ails > > > you. There are many recent research papers showing reduction in heart > > > disease, increased longevity, and so forth from taking more > than 10 times > > > the government recommended amount of Vitamin C. One of the arguments > > > against taking large amount of Vitamin C was the risk of kidney stones. > > > That debate has been laid to rest by a large study showing no > increase in > > > kidney stones from Vitamin C and a significant reduction in > kidney stones > > > from increased Vitamin B6. > > > > > > The above originally posted by > > > <http://www.jeffsutherland.org/complementary>Jeff Sutherland > > > > > > Why Don't Massive Doses of Ascorbate Produce Kidney Stones? > > > > > > Years ago when Linus ing wrote his book " Vitamin C and the Common > > > Cold " , the critics immediately labeled the taking of large > > doses of vitamin > > > C dangerous because it would produce calcium oxalate kidney > stones. This > > > practice of telling people that vitamin C caused kidney > stones continues > > > today by the critics of vitamin C despite the lack of clinical > > evidence of > > > kidney stones in people taking vitamin C > > > > > > It was hypothesized that since a significant percentage of > ascorbate was > > > metabolized into and excreted as oxalic acid that this oxalic > acid should > > > combine with calcium in the urine and deposit as calcium oxalate kidney > > > stones. It is true that those of us who take large doses of > > ascorbate have > > > elevated oxalic acid in our urine but no kidney stones. With > the millions > > > of people in the world taking vitamin C, if vitamin C caused > > kidney stones > > > there would have been a massive epidemic of kidney stones > noticed by this > > > time. There has been none. > > > > > > I started using vitamin C in massive doses in-patients in 1969. > > By the time > > > I read that ascorbate should cause kidney stones, I had > clinical evidence > > > that it did not cause kidney stones, so I continued prescribing massive > > > doses to patients. To this day I estimate that I have put > 25,000 patients > > > on massive doses of vitamin C and none have developed kidney > stones. Two > > > patients who had dropped their doses to 500 mg a day developed calcium > > > oxalate kidney stones. I raised their doses back up to the more massive > > > doses and added magnesium and B6 to their program and no more kidney > > > stones. I think that the low doses had no effect and they, by > > coincidence, > > > developed the kidney stones because they were not taking enough > > vitamin C. > > > > > > The question remains, however, why do not people taking large doses of > > > ascorbate develop kidney stones. I had in 1985 hypothesized > > that one of the > > > reasons that we did not develop kidney stones was that the ascorbate > > > excreted in the urine sterilizes the urine and > > > " <http://www.orthomed.com/nonrate.htm#OXALATE KIDNEY>should > > prevent many of > > > the niduses of infection around which oxalate stones frequently form. " > > > (Cathcart, RF. Vitamin C: the Nontoxic, Nonrate-Limited, > Antioxidant Free > > > Radical Scavenger. Medical Hypotheses, 18:61-77, 1985.) > > > > > > In an article in <http://www.sciencenews.org/sn_arc98/8_1_98/bob2.htm> > > > ScienceNewsOnline, August 1, 1998, the Bacteria in the Stone it is said > > > that Extra-tiny microorganisms may lead to kidney stones and other > > > diseases. Tiny nanobacteria, as small as the larger viruses, > > live in urine > > > and, by precipitating calcium and other minerals around > > themselves, induce > > > the formation of kidney stones. It seems that the large doses > > of ascorbate > > > by causing the excretion of ascorbate in the urine probably kills the > > > nanobacteria and prevents the formation of stones. > > > > > > In addition, the massive doses of ascorbate assist the immune system to > > > kill bacteria within the body but have the ability to kill > > bacteria by some > > > mechanism, which does not seem to involve the immune system. > > These bacteria > > > and L-forms of bacteria hide out in cells especially when > antibiotics are > > > used and explain some of the resistance acquired by bacteria against > > > antibiotics. I have yet to see bacteria that can become resistant to > > > massive doses of ascorbate in combination with first and > > second-generation > > > antibiotics. Admittedly in a private practice, I do not see the most > > > resistant bacteria but this combination has been impressive and > > deserves to > > > be tried against the most resistant bacteria. It may solve > the impending > > > problem of increasingly resistant bacteria. > > > > > > See also the med center study indicating that even moderate doses of C > > > prevent kidney stones. > > > > > > > > > > > ><http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve & db=P >ubMed & list_u > > > ids=8618271 & dopt=Abstract> A prospective study of the intake of > > vitamins C > > > and B6, and the risk of kidney stones in men. > > > > > > Curhan GC, Willett WC, Rimm EB, Stampfer MJ. > > > > > > Department of Epidemiology, Harvard School of Public Health, Boston, > > > Massachusetts 02115, USA. > > > > > > PURPOSE: The association between the intake of vitamins C and B6, and > > > kidney stone formation was examined. MATERIALS AND METHODS: We > > conducted a > > > prospective study of the relationship between the intake of > > vitamins C and > > > B6 and the risk of symptomatic kidney stones in a cohort of > 45,251 men 40 > > > to 75 years old with no history of kidney calculi. Vitamin intake from > > > foods and supplements was assessed using a semiquantitative > > food frequency > > > questionnaire completed in 1986. RESULTS: During 6 years of > followup 751 > > > incident cases of kidney stones were documented. Neither vitamin C nor > > > vitamin B6 intake was significantly associated with the risk of stone > > > formation. For vitamin C the age-adjusted relative risk for > men consuming > > > 1,500 mg. daily or more compared to less than 250 mg. daily > was 0.78 (95% > > > confidence interval 0.54 to 1.11). For vitamin B6 the > > age-adjusted relative > > > risk for men consuming 40 mg. daily or more compared to less than 3 mg. > > > daily was 0.91 (95% confidence interval 0.64 to 1.31). After > > adjusting for > > > other potential stone risk factors the relative risks did not change > > > significantly. CONCLUSIONS: These data do not support an association > > > between a high daily intake of vitamin C or vitamin B6 and the risk of > > > stone formation, even when consumed in large doses. > > > > > > PMID: 8618271 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] > > > > > > To subscribe / unsubscribe: chrisgupta@... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 1, 2008 Report Share Posted December 1, 2008 Is it just the energy from it that we would be using in homeopathy? Jenn L Excessive Vitamin C Consumption Does Not > > > Cause Kidney Stones! > > > > > > > > > Your physician will probably never tell you about this so you > > must fend for > > > yourself. Read the research! > > > > > > Gupta > > > <http://tinyurl.com/b6ghn> http://tinyurl.com/b6ghn > > > > > > See also: > > > > > > > > ><http://www.newmediaexplorer.org/chris/2005/09/14/the_stonewalli >ng_of_vitami > > > n_c.htm> The Stonewalling of Vitamin C > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > > ><http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve & db=P >ubMed & list_u > > > ids=99218032 & dopt=Citation> Intake of vitamins B6 and C and the risk of > > > kidney stones in women > > > Curhan, G. C., Willett, W. C., Speizer, F. E., Stampfer, M. J. > > > J Am Soc Nephrol 10:4:840-845, Apr 1999 > > > > > > Abstract > > > > > > Urinary oxalate is an important determinant of calcium oxalate > > kidney stone > > > formation. High doses of vitamin B6 may decrease oxalate production, > > > whereas vitamin C can be metabolized to oxalate. This study > was conducted > > > to examine the association between the intakes of vitamins B6 and C and > > > risk of kidney stone formation in women. The relation between > > the intake of > > > vitamins B6 and C and the risk of symptomatic kidney stones were > > > prospectively studied in a cohort of 85,557 women with no > > history of kidney > > > stones. Semiquantitative food-frequency questionnaires were > > used to assess > > > vitamin consumption from both foods and supplements. A total of 1078 > > > incident cases of kidney stones was documented during the > 14-yr follow-up > > > period. A high intake of vitamin B6 was inversely associated > with risk of > > > stone formation. After adjusting for other dietary factors, > the relative > > > risk of incident stone formation for women in the highest > category of B6 > > > intake (> or =40 mg/d) compared with the lowest category (<3 > > mg/d) was 0.66 > > > (95% confidence interval, 0.44 to 0.98). In contrast, vitamin C > > intake was > > > not associated with risk. The multivariate relative risk for > women in the > > > highest category of vitamin C intake (> or =1500 mg/d) > compared with the > > > lowest category (<250 mg/d) was 1.06 (95% confidence interval, 0.69 to > > > 1.64). Large doses of vitamin B6 may reduce the risk of kidney stone > > > formation in women. Routine restriction of vitamin C to prevent stone > > > formation appears unwarranted. > > > > > > Linus ing was a mentor of mine and a sponsor of the Center > > for Vitamins > > > and Cancer Research that I co-founded at the University of > > Colorado Medical > > > School in 1980. He was a great supporter of Vitamin C for all that ails > > > you. There are many recent research papers showing reduction in heart > > > disease, increased longevity, and so forth from taking more > than 10 times > > > the government recommended amount of Vitamin C. One of the arguments > > > against taking large amount of Vitamin C was the risk of kidney stones. > > > That debate has been laid to rest by a large study showing no > increase in > > > kidney stones from Vitamin C and a significant reduction in > kidney stones > > > from increased Vitamin B6. > > > > > > The above originally posted by > > > <http://www.jeffsutherland.org/complementary>Jeff Sutherland > > > > > > Why Don't Massive Doses of Ascorbate Produce Kidney Stones? > > > > > > Years ago when Linus ing wrote his book " Vitamin C and the Common > > > Cold " , the critics immediately labeled the taking of large > > doses of vitamin > > > C dangerous because it would produce calcium oxalate kidney > stones. This > > > practice of telling people that vitamin C caused kidney > stones continues > > > today by the critics of vitamin C despite the lack of clinical > > evidence of > > > kidney stones in people taking vitamin C > > > > > > It was hypothesized that since a significant percentage of > ascorbate was > > > metabolized into and excreted as oxalic acid that this oxalic > acid should > > > combine with calcium in the urine and deposit as calcium oxalate kidney > > > stones. It is true that those of us who take large doses of > > ascorbate have > > > elevated oxalic acid in our urine but no kidney stones. With > the millions > > > of people in the world taking vitamin C, if vitamin C caused > > kidney stones > > > there would have been a massive epidemic of kidney stones > noticed by this > > > time. There has been none. > > > > > > I started using vitamin C in massive doses in-patients in 1969. > > By the time > > > I read that ascorbate should cause kidney stones, I had > clinical evidence > > > that it did not cause kidney stones, so I continued prescribing massive > > > doses to patients. To this day I estimate that I have put > 25,000 patients > > > on massive doses of vitamin C and none have developed kidney > stones. Two > > > patients who had dropped their doses to 500 mg a day developed calcium > > > oxalate kidney stones. I raised their doses back up to the more massive > > > doses and added magnesium and B6 to their program and no more kidney > > > stones. I think that the low doses had no effect and they, by > > coincidence, > > > developed the kidney stones because they were not taking enough > > vitamin C. > > > > > > The question remains, however, why do not people taking large doses of > > > ascorbate develop kidney stones. I had in 1985 hypothesized > > that one of the > > > reasons that we did not develop kidney stones was that the ascorbate > > > excreted in the urine sterilizes the urine and > > > " <http://www.orthomed.com/nonrate.htm#OXALATE KIDNEY>should > > prevent many of > > > the niduses of infection around which oxalate stones frequently form. " > > > (Cathcart, RF. Vitamin C: the Nontoxic, Nonrate-Limited, > Antioxidant Free > > > Radical Scavenger. Medical Hypotheses, 18:61-77, 1985.) > > > > > > In an article in <http://www.sciencenews.org/sn_arc98/8_1_98/bob2.htm> > > > ScienceNewsOnline, August 1, 1998, the Bacteria in the Stone it is said > > > that Extra-tiny microorganisms may lead to kidney stones and other > > > diseases. Tiny nanobacteria, as small as the larger viruses, > > live in urine > > > and, by precipitating calcium and other minerals around > > themselves, induce > > > the formation of kidney stones. It seems that the large doses > > of ascorbate > > > by causing the excretion of ascorbate in the urine probably kills the > > > nanobacteria and prevents the formation of stones. > > > > > > In addition, the massive doses of ascorbate assist the immune system to > > > kill bacteria within the body but have the ability to kill > > bacteria by some > > > mechanism, which does not seem to involve the immune system. > > These bacteria > > > and L-forms of bacteria hide out in cells especially when > antibiotics are > > > used and explain some of the resistance acquired by bacteria against > > > antibiotics. I have yet to see bacteria that can become resistant to > > > massive doses of ascorbate in combination with first and > > second-generation > > > antibiotics. Admittedly in a private practice, I do not see the most > > > resistant bacteria but this combination has been impressive and > > deserves to > > > be tried against the most resistant bacteria. It may solve > the impending > > > problem of increasingly resistant bacteria. > > > > > > See also the med center study indicating that even moderate doses of C > > > prevent kidney stones. > > > > > > > > > > > ><http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve & db=P >ubMed & list_u > > > ids=8618271 & dopt=Abstract> A prospective study of the intake of > > vitamins C > > > and B6, and the risk of kidney stones in men. > > > > > > Curhan GC, Willett WC, Rimm EB, Stampfer MJ. > > > > > > Department of Epidemiology, Harvard School of Public Health, Boston, > > > Massachusetts 02115, USA. > > > > > > PURPOSE: The association between the intake of vitamins C and B6, and > > > kidney stone formation was examined. MATERIALS AND METHODS: We > > conducted a > > > prospective study of the relationship between the intake of > > vitamins C and > > > B6 and the risk of symptomatic kidney stones in a cohort of > 45,251 men 40 > > > to 75 years old with no history of kidney calculi. Vitamin intake from > > > foods and supplements was assessed using a semiquantitative > > food frequency > > > questionnaire completed in 1986. RESULTS: During 6 years of > followup 751 > > > incident cases of kidney stones were documented. Neither vitamin C nor > > > vitamin B6 intake was significantly associated with the risk of stone > > > formation. For vitamin C the age-adjusted relative risk for > men consuming > > > 1,500 mg. daily or more compared to less than 250 mg. daily > was 0.78 (95% > > > confidence interval 0.54 to 1.11). For vitamin B6 the > > age-adjusted relative > > > risk for men consuming 40 mg. daily or more compared to less than 3 mg. > > > daily was 0.91 (95% confidence interval 0.64 to 1.31). After > > adjusting for > > > other potential stone risk factors the relative risks did not change > > > significantly. CONCLUSIONS: These data do not support an association > > > between a high daily intake of vitamin C or vitamin B6 and the risk of > > > stone formation, even when consumed in large doses. > > > > > > PMID: 8618271 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] > > > > > > To subscribe / unsubscribe: chrisgupta@... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 1, 2008 Report Share Posted December 1, 2008 basically yes as after 12C potency there is no material left in the remedy Sheri At 11:37 AM 12/1/2008, you wrote: >Is it just the energy from it that we would be using in homeopathy? Jenn L > Excessive Vitamin C Consumption Does Not > > > > Cause Kidney Stones! > > > > > > > > > > > > Your physician will probably never tell you about this so you > > > must fend for > > > > yourself. Read the research! > > > > > > > > Gupta > > > > <http://tinyurl.com/b6ghn> http://tinyurl.com/b6ghn > > > > > > > > See also: > > > > > > > > > > > > ><http://www.newmediaexplorer.org/chris/2005/09/14/the_stonewalli > >ng_of_vitami > > > > n_c.htm> The Stonewalling of Vitamin C > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ><http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve & db=P > >ubMed & list_u > > > > ids=99218032 & dopt=Citation> Intake of vitamins B6 and C and > the risk of > > > > kidney stones in women > > > > Curhan, G. C., Willett, W. C., Speizer, F. E., Stampfer, M. J. > > > > J Am Soc Nephrol 10:4:840-845, Apr 1999 > > > > > > > > Abstract > > > > > > > > Urinary oxalate is an important determinant of calcium oxalate > > > kidney stone > > > > formation. High doses of vitamin B6 may decrease oxalate production, > > > > whereas vitamin C can be metabolized to oxalate. This study > > was conducted > > > > to examine the association between the intakes of vitamins > B6 and C and > > > > risk of kidney stone formation in women. The relation between > > > the intake of > > > > vitamins B6 and C and the risk of symptomatic kidney stones were > > > > prospectively studied in a cohort of 85,557 women with no > > > history of kidney > > > > stones. Semiquantitative food-frequency questionnaires were > > > used to assess > > > > vitamin consumption from both foods and supplements. A total of 1078 > > > > incident cases of kidney stones was documented during the > > 14-yr follow-up > > > > period. A high intake of vitamin B6 was inversely associated > > with risk of > > > > stone formation. After adjusting for other dietary factors, > > the relative > > > > risk of incident stone formation for women in the highest > > category of B6 > > > > intake (> or =40 mg/d) compared with the lowest category (<3 > > > mg/d) was 0.66 > > > > (95% confidence interval, 0.44 to 0.98). In contrast, vitamin C > > > intake was > > > > not associated with risk. The multivariate relative risk for > > women in the > > > > highest category of vitamin C intake (> or =1500 mg/d) > > compared with the > > > > lowest category (<250 mg/d) was 1.06 (95% confidence > interval, 0.69 to > > > > 1.64). Large doses of vitamin B6 may reduce the risk of kidney stone > > > > formation in women. Routine restriction of vitamin C to prevent stone > > > > formation appears unwarranted. > > > > > > > > Linus ing was a mentor of mine and a sponsor of the Center > > > for Vitamins > > > > and Cancer Research that I co-founded at the University of > > > Colorado Medical > > > > School in 1980. He was a great supporter of Vitamin C for > all that ails > > > > you. There are many recent research papers showing reduction in heart > > > > disease, increased longevity, and so forth from taking more > > than 10 times > > > > the government recommended amount of Vitamin C. One of the arguments > > > > against taking large amount of Vitamin C was the risk of > kidney stones. > > > > That debate has been laid to rest by a large study showing no > > increase in > > > > kidney stones from Vitamin C and a significant reduction in > > kidney stones > > > > from increased Vitamin B6. > > > > > > > > The above originally posted by > > > > <http://www.jeffsutherland.org/complementary>Jeff Sutherland > > > > > > > > Why Don't Massive Doses of Ascorbate Produce Kidney Stones? > > > > > > > > Years ago when Linus ing wrote his book " Vitamin C and the Common > > > > Cold " , the critics immediately labeled the taking of large > > > doses of vitamin > > > > C dangerous because it would produce calcium oxalate kidney > > stones. This > > > > practice of telling people that vitamin C caused kidney > > stones continues > > > > today by the critics of vitamin C despite the lack of clinical > > > evidence of > > > > kidney stones in people taking vitamin C > > > > > > > > It was hypothesized that since a significant percentage of > > ascorbate was > > > > metabolized into and excreted as oxalic acid that this oxalic > > acid should > > > > combine with calcium in the urine and deposit as calcium > oxalate kidney > > > > stones. It is true that those of us who take large doses of > > > ascorbate have > > > > elevated oxalic acid in our urine but no kidney stones. With > > the millions > > > > of people in the world taking vitamin C, if vitamin C caused > > > kidney stones > > > > there would have been a massive epidemic of kidney stones > > noticed by this > > > > time. There has been none. > > > > > > > > I started using vitamin C in massive doses in-patients in 1969. > > > By the time > > > > I read that ascorbate should cause kidney stones, I had > > clinical evidence > > > > that it did not cause kidney stones, so I continued > prescribing massive > > > > doses to patients. To this day I estimate that I have put > > 25,000 patients > > > > on massive doses of vitamin C and none have developed kidney > > stones. Two > > > > patients who had dropped their doses to 500 mg a day > developed calcium > > > > oxalate kidney stones. I raised their doses back up to the > more massive > > > > doses and added magnesium and B6 to their program and no more kidney > > > > stones. I think that the low doses had no effect and they, by > > > coincidence, > > > > developed the kidney stones because they were not taking enough > > > vitamin C. > > > > > > > > The question remains, however, why do not people taking > large doses of > > > > ascorbate develop kidney stones. I had in 1985 hypothesized > > > that one of the > > > > reasons that we did not develop kidney stones was that the ascorbate > > > > excreted in the urine sterilizes the urine and > > > > " <http://www.orthomed.com/nonrate.htm#OXALATE KIDNEY>should > > > prevent many of > > > > the niduses of infection around which oxalate stones > frequently form. " > > > > (Cathcart, RF. Vitamin C: the Nontoxic, Nonrate-Limited, > > Antioxidant Free > > > > Radical Scavenger. Medical Hypotheses, 18:61-77, 1985.) > > > > > > > > In an article in > <http://www.sciencenews.org/sn_arc98/8_1_98/bob2.htm> > > > > ScienceNewsOnline, August 1, 1998, the Bacteria in the > Stone it is said > > > > that Extra-tiny microorganisms may lead to kidney stones and other > > > > diseases. Tiny nanobacteria, as small as the larger viruses, > > > live in urine > > > > and, by precipitating calcium and other minerals around > > > themselves, induce > > > > the formation of kidney stones. It seems that the large doses > > > of ascorbate > > > > by causing the excretion of ascorbate in the urine probably kills the > > > > nanobacteria and prevents the formation of stones. > > > > > > > > In addition, the massive doses of ascorbate assist the > immune system to > > > > kill bacteria within the body but have the ability to kill > > > bacteria by some > > > > mechanism, which does not seem to involve the immune system. > > > These bacteria > > > > and L-forms of bacteria hide out in cells especially when > > antibiotics are > > > > used and explain some of the resistance acquired by bacteria against > > > > antibiotics. I have yet to see bacteria that can become resistant to > > > > massive doses of ascorbate in combination with first and > > > second-generation > > > > antibiotics. Admittedly in a private practice, I do not see the most > > > > resistant bacteria but this combination has been impressive and > > > deserves to > > > > be tried against the most resistant bacteria. It may solve > > the impending > > > > problem of increasingly resistant bacteria. > > > > > > > > See also the med center study indicating that even moderate > doses of C > > > > prevent kidney stones. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ><http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve & db=P > >ubMed & list_u > > > > ids=8618271 & dopt=Abstract> A prospective study of the intake of > > > vitamins C > > > > and B6, and the risk of kidney stones in men. > > > > > > > > Curhan GC, Willett WC, Rimm EB, Stampfer MJ. > > > > > > > > Department of Epidemiology, Harvard School of Public Health, Boston, > > > > Massachusetts 02115, USA. > > > > > > > > PURPOSE: The association between the intake of vitamins C and B6, and > > > > kidney stone formation was examined. MATERIALS AND METHODS: We > > > conducted a > > > > prospective study of the relationship between the intake of > > > vitamins C and > > > > B6 and the risk of symptomatic kidney stones in a cohort of > > 45,251 men 40 > > > > to 75 years old with no history of kidney calculi. Vitamin > intake from > > > > foods and supplements was assessed using a semiquantitative > > > food frequency > > > > questionnaire completed in 1986. RESULTS: During 6 years of > > followup 751 > > > > incident cases of kidney stones were documented. Neither > vitamin C nor > > > > vitamin B6 intake was significantly associated with the risk of stone > > > > formation. For vitamin C the age-adjusted relative risk for > > men consuming > > > > 1,500 mg. daily or more compared to less than 250 mg. daily > > was 0.78 (95% > > > > confidence interval 0.54 to 1.11). For vitamin B6 the > > > age-adjusted relative > > > > risk for men consuming 40 mg. daily or more compared to > less than 3 mg. > > > > daily was 0.91 (95% confidence interval 0.64 to 1.31). After > > > adjusting for > > > > other potential stone risk factors the relative risks did not change > > > > significantly. CONCLUSIONS: These data do not support an association > > > > between a high daily intake of vitamin C or vitamin B6 and > the risk of > > > > stone formation, even when consumed in large doses. > > > > > > > > PMID: 8618271 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] > > > > > > > > To subscribe / unsubscribe: chrisgupta@... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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