Forrist Re. NCD

[Guest guest]

Forrist,

How are you finding the NCD compares to the ALA/DMSA 3 hour protocol

for 3 days on and 4 off that Andy Cutler recommends? For example, what

does a round or recommended dosing schedule look like for the NCD and

what is comparable to Andy's protocol?

I hear you saying it chelates lead, merucry and aresenic - 3 things I

need to get out. Do you have any comparisons of how much it excretes

compared to other popular chelators? If you have a link to read that

would be fine too.

Also, how does it compare to the DMSA/ALA cost wise?

Do you still recommend chelating or do you feel that the NCD alone is

enough? I know the studies are preliminary so I'm just asking for your

opinion. I see her some people have had great results with it and

there seem to be minimal side effects. I wonder how cost prohibitive it

is since MLMs have significant mark-ups usually.

Thanks for any info you can provide.

[Guest guest]

To be clear, any answers I share are based on the information I've

learned from others.

The current best information related to NCD & ASD can be found at

www.zeoliteautismstudy.com <http://www.zeoliteautismstudy.com> and

listening to the audio clips by Dr. Prociuk. He describes his first hand

experiences working with ASD children using NCD since Dec. '05. He is a

DAN doc who uses homeopathy in his practice in addition to various other

treatments.

He has stated that he is satisfied enough with NCD's results to replace

the various chelators he was using with NCD. Again, I urge you listen to

his descriptions directly.

This is way too soon for any comparison studies to have been completed.

I'm guessing it may be 2-4 years before people choose to invest the time

and money to do the type of studies you are asking for. I too would love

to see such study results.

As a frame of reference, the study I'm coordinating has 7 professionals

involved, 3 recognizable doctors in the field of autism, all as

volunteers. Even so, the study will cost around $50,000 for the hard

costs involved (if one added in the labor for all the people involved it

would be substantially higher). It will take about 8-9 months to

complete once it starts and another 6-9 months to get written up,

submitted and through the peer review process, then published. Until it

is published we will be unable to provide very little specific data of

study results or we will jeopardize the ability to get it published.

Cost wise, Dr. Prociuk states it is 1/3 to 1/2 compared to the chelators

(DMSA or DMPS, don't remember which he was referring to), plus there is

not the need to do as active excretion tests so this reduces the cost

further. He came to this conclusion as a result of a steady process of

first continuing the chelators, and testing, then eliminating other

chelators in favor of ncd and still testing. He recently stated he feels

comfortable dramatically reducing the number of excretion tests he

advises being done.

The retail cost of NCD is $50 (wholesale around $35-40) for a bottle of

300 drops. It is sold by the company as a package of 4 bottles. The

recommended dosage varies based upon the age and response of the child.

Generally after a slow increase over the 1st few weeks, most parents

hold the dosage from 15-30 drops per day. From this you can figure out

how long a bottle will last and what the expense is.

Here's the schedule we are planning to use:

NCD Zeolite™ Usage

The dosage will follow this schedule:

1. Days 1 – 4: two (2) drops 3X per day (daily: 6 drops)

2. Days 5 – 7: three (3) drops 3X per day (daily: 9 drops)

3. Days 8 – 10: four (4) drops 3X per day (daily: 12 drops)

– max dosage, ages >5

4. Days 11 – 13: five (5) drops 3X per day (daily: 15 drops)

– max dosage, ages 5 to 7

5. Days 14 – 16: seven (7) drops 3X per day (daily: 21 drops)

– max dosage, ages 8 - 10

6. Days 17 – 19: eight (8) drops, 3X per day (daily: 24 drops)

– max dosage, ages 11 to 13

7. Days 20 – 90: ten (10) drops, 3X per day (daily: 30 drops)

– max dosage, ages 14 & older

Note 1: When the maximum dosage is age dependant. When participant

reachs the maximum dosage, the child will stay at that dosage unless a

change has been recommended by their assigned investigator.

Note 2: At any point, if the child is experiencing detoxification

effects such as hyperactivity, inability to sleep, lethargy, rashes,

etc. which in last more than 3 days the parent has the option to skip

from one to three doses, and then to start back at the next lower

dosage. Maintaining the lower dosage for six days before returning to

the standard schedule. With the Investigator's agreement, schedule

for any individual subject can be altered if this is determined to be in

the child's best interest

NOTE: This is not to recommend this schedule. Rather I'd suggest a more

indivdualized approach. We are doing it this way because it is a study

and we want as consistent guidelines as possible.

>

> Forrist,

>

> How are you finding the NCD compares to the ALA/DMSA 3 hour protocol

> for 3 days on and 4 off that Andy Cutler recommends? For example, what

> does a round or recommended dosing schedule look like for the NCD and

> what is comparable to Andy's protocol?

>

> I hear you saying it chelates lead, merucry and aresenic - 3 things I

> need to get out. Do you have any comparisons of how much it excretes

> compared to other popular chelators? If you have a link to read that

> would be fine too.

>

> Also, how does it compare to the DMSA/ALA cost wise?

>

> Do you still recommend chelating or do you feel that the NCD alone is

> enough? I know the studies are preliminary so I'm just asking for your

> opinion. I see her some people have had great results with it and

> there seem to be minimal side effects. I wonder how cost prohibitive

it

> is since MLMs have significant mark-ups usually.

>

> Thanks for any info you can provide.

>

[Guest guest]

<<his first hand experiences working with ASD children using NCD

since Dec. '05. He is a DAN doc who uses homeopathy in his practice

in addition to various other treatments. He has stated that he is

satisfied enough with NCD's results to replace the various chelators

he was using with NCD.>>

I'm going to check this out when I get some time. I'm wondering,

specifically, how he knows that he got some of the toxic metals out.

Did he do hair analysis throughout the process or test the urine?

<<This is way too soon for any comparison studies to have been

completed.>>

I would be happy with hair analysis tests before and after using the

NCD. Presumably any DAN or homeopathic doctor who has overseen

chelating therapy in the past would routinely order these tests.

Having multiple practical people responding well would be

enough 'study' for me at present.

<<I'm guessing it may be 2-4 years before people choose to invest the

time and money to do the type of studies you are asking for. I too

would love to see such study results.>>

It would be easy enough to do urine tests (to check mercury/metal

excretion) and hair analysis before, at 3 months, at 6 months and

etc. to see if the toxic load is decreased and about how long it

takes to detox someone using the NCD.

<<He recently stated he feels comfortable dramatically reducing the

number of excretion tests he advises being done.>>

Has he posted or written about the excretion test results for those

he's been treating with NCD? If so can you provide the link? Also,

how long does it take to be fully detoxified (DMSA/ALA is usually 1-3

or 4 years from what I'm reading - average of like 2-3).

<<Generally after a slow increase over the 1st few weeks, most parents

hold the dosage from 15-30 drops per day. From this you can figure

out how long a bottle will last and what the expense is>>

30 drops a day would mean about 1 $50 bottle every 10 days or about

$150 a month. DMSA is about $45 a bottle and I currently need about

2 a month but am starting off slow. The ALA is under $10 for 100

100mgs doses. They seem similar in cost based on my estimate.

Adults may need more than 30 drops of the NCD a day though - if it

was double that, it would cost about $300 a momth.

In summary, I'm wondering,

1. Does your doctor perform excretion tests and hair analysis

comparisions at various intervals to check for load reducing and if

so what is he finding? Is is there a link on this specifically?

2. How long does it take for people to be cleared of the metals, on

the average (just an estimate)?

3. Does he think NCD crosses the brain barrier and gets metals bound

up in the organs/brain like the ALA? How does he test for that (e.g.

does he give ALA and see if it stirs up any brain mercury? That would

be the only way I can think of to check for it).

4. Lastly, what metals does NCD address? What metals has it not been

found to address?

Thank you for your information,

Daisy

[Guest guest]

> In summary, I'm wondering,

>

> 1. Does your doctor perform excretion tests and hair analysis

> comparisions at various intervals to check for load reducing and if

> so what is he finding? Is is there a link on this specifically?

I have no relationship with Dr. Prociuk except having listened to his

conference calls. Many others on this list and the AutismNCD list are

actually going to see him as their doctor. They are more likely to be

able to answer some of your questions.

What I understand is that he did indeed go through a period of observing

the excretions tests, but that this has never been a large focus for his

work.

> 2. How long does it take for people to be cleared of the metals, on

> the average (just an estimate)?

Don't know. No studies have been done regarding this. The costs for an

invidiual to do this type of testing is prohibitive or if they've done

these tests, I've not seen them described anywhere.

>

> 3. Does he think NCD crosses the brain barrier and gets metals bound

> up in the organs/brain like the ALA? How does he test for that (e.g.

> does he give ALA and see if it stirs up any brain mercury? That would

> be the only way I can think of to check for it).

The animal studies have not been done yet to answer the BBB question.

There are discussions with a major research scientist who has done many

of these tests for other chelators. I'd quess we'll have that answer

within 12 months.

Dr. P focus is results. How the results are being generated using NCD is

not his focus. Recommend you listen to his audios at

www.zeoliteautismstudy.com <http://www.zeoliteautismstudy.com>

> 4. Lastly, what metals does NCD address? What metals has it not been

> found to address?

>

Here's an excerpt from a recent conversation with Rik Deitsch,

biochemist and Chair of Waiora SAB.

Rik: " Well, it's not just higher affinity. It's the order

that which they are excreted. For example, mercury and cadmium seemed

to come off right away. And we see them at very high levels the first

week, even the first day and four days. You look at one day, four days,

seven days, one week thereafter. Right away we see mercury and cadmium

come off, then those levels drop and we start to see things like tin,

aluminum, bismuth, antimony, these things come off, it's really

orders of magnitude. So we know that there's a very clear affinity

series for the zeolite. And, then what we'll see is at maybe day

thirty it starts excreting mercury again. "

Forrist: " Where's the lead and arsenic show up? "

Rik: " Arsenic is right after aluminum. There is mercury, cadmium,

aluminum, tin and then antimony and arsenic came out about the same

time. Lead came out throughout. There were low levels of lead

excretion as well as low levels of cadmium, at the beginning, which

increased along with the other ones throughout. We're going to have

graphs and charts that kinda show this, by metal when they seem to

excreted but it clearly shows that there is an affinity in the zeolite

and that is not just that it is taking willy nilly everything it can

find. But there is an obvious excretion pattern based on the charge and

the atomic radii of the element.

> Thank you for your information,

>

> Daisy

>

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 26/05/2006 06:18:09 GMT Daylight Time, RoseGvr@...

writes:

Also, how does it compare to the DMSA/ALA cost wise?

>>>Depends on what dose is right for your child, I suspect they are about

the same if you do low dosing with both. NCD seems to be very individual

specific, maybe that is about how sick the kid is?

Do you still recommend chelating or do you feel that the NCD alone is

enough? I know the studies are preliminary so I'm just asking for your

opinion.

>>>I am seeing great things with NCD but it won't stop me doing what I KNOW

works (DMSA/ALA) as soon as the minerals are back up and I had a light bulb

moment last week and relaised I could be doing ALA all along, I shall do both

at the same time this week and report back, been a few years since we did ALA

only round

Mandi in UK fresh from Chicago at 38 degrees, I have metled actually, I a

blob on my chair, post tidbits later

Mandi in UK

[Guest guest]

Hi Forrest,

I'm all for getting metals out faster - must make for lower

possibility of redistribution. I just wonder how long it's taking to

get fully metal free compared to chelating? I'd probably continue the

DMSA/ALA every other week along with the NCD if I decided to try it.

I wish there was more info available. I have to know as much as

possible in order to be committed to something. I may give the NCD a

chance - but it will be hard to do those drops everyday and not

forget unless I feel very compelled by the evidence and stats.

I'll probably stick closely to your dosing schedule when/if I do try

it. Thanks again for answering my questions.

Blessings,

Daisy/Rose

> > In summary, I'm wondering,

> >

> > 1. Does your doctor perform excretion tests and hair analysis

> > comparisions at various intervals to check for load reducing and

if

> > so what is he finding? Is is there a link on this specifically?

>

>

> I have no relationship with Dr. Prociuk except having listened to

his

> conference calls. Many others on this list and the AutismNCD list

are

> actually going to see him as their doctor. They are more likely to

be

> able to answer some of your questions.

>

> What I understand is that he did indeed go through a period of

observing

> the excretions tests, but that this has never been a large focus

for his

> work.

>

>

> > 2. How long does it take for people to be cleared of the metals,

on

> > the average (just an estimate)?

>

>

> Don't know. No studies have been done regarding this. The costs

for an

> invidiual to do this type of testing is prohibitive or if they've

done

> these tests, I've not seen them described anywhere.

>

> >

> > 3. Does he think NCD crosses the brain barrier and gets metals

bound

> > up in the organs/brain like the ALA? How does he test for that

(e.g.

> > does he give ALA and see if it stirs up any brain mercury? That

would

> > be the only way I can think of to check for it).

>

>

> The animal studies have not been done yet to answer the BBB

question.

> There are discussions with a major research scientist who has done

many

> of these tests for other chelators. I'd quess we'll have that answer

> within 12 months.

>

> Dr. P focus is results. How the results are being generated using

NCD is

> not his focus. Recommend you listen to his audios at

> www.zeoliteautismstudy.com <http://www.zeoliteautismstudy.com>

>

>

> > 4. Lastly, what metals does NCD address? What metals has it not

been

> > found to address?

> >

> Here's an excerpt from a recent conversation with Rik Deitsch,

> biochemist and Chair of Waiora SAB.

>

> Rik: " Well, it's not just higher affinity. It's the order

> that which they are excreted. For example, mercury and cadmium

seemed

> to come off right away. And we see them at very high levels the

first

> week, even the first day and four days. You look at one day, four

days,

> seven days, one week thereafter. Right away we see mercury and

cadmium

> come off, then those levels drop and we start to see things like

tin,

> aluminum, bismuth, antimony, these things come off, it's really

> orders of magnitude. So we know that there's a very clear affinity

> series for the zeolite. And, then what we'll see is at maybe day

> thirty it starts excreting mercury again. "

>

> Forrist: " Where's the lead and arsenic show up? "

>

> Rik: " Arsenic is right after aluminum. There is mercury, cadmium,

> aluminum, tin and then antimony and arsenic came out about the same

> time. Lead came out throughout. There were low levels of lead

> excretion as well as low levels of cadmium, at the beginning, which

> increased along with the other ones throughout. We're going to have

> graphs and charts that kinda show this, by metal when they seem to

> excreted but it clearly shows that there is an affinity in the

zeolite

> and that is not just that it is taking willy nilly everything it can

> find. But there is an obvious excretion pattern based on the

charge and

> the atomic radii of the element.

>

>

>

>

> > Thank you for your information,

> >

> > Daisy

> >

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Daisy,

I understand your concern. It is important to feel comfortable

before undertaking in protocol with your child. In AutismNCD, you'll

find only parents who either have their children on NCD or are

considering it. You'll find a lot of excellent conversation

regarding the questions you're raising there.

As a side note, you may be aware that this Sunday, Dateline will

feature a 12 minute segment on Biomedical recovery of some autistic

children. Jim and his DMSA study will also be covered.

Our study is on track to be approved by the IRB soon. In the

meantime, I can say that the doctors involved include Dr. Jim ,

Dr. Rao of Dallas, TX and Dr. Cave of Baton Rouge as well

as a couple other professionals who work with ASD children daily.

Warmly,

Forrist

>

> Hi Forrest,

>

> I'm all for getting metals out faster - must make for lower

> possibility of redistribution. I just wonder how long it's taking

to

> get fully metal free compared to chelating? I'd probably continue

the

> DMSA/ALA every other week along with the NCD if I decided to try

it.

>

> I wish there was more info available. I have to know as much as

> possible in order to be committed to something. I may give the

NCD a

> chance - but it will be hard to do those drops everyday and not

> forget unless I feel very compelled by the evidence and stats.

>

> I'll probably stick closely to your dosing schedule when/if I do

try

> it. Thanks again for answering my questions.

>

> Blessings,

>

> Daisy/Rose

>

>

>

> > > In summary, I'm wondering,

> > >

> > > 1. Does your doctor perform excretion tests and hair analysis

> > > comparisions at various intervals to check for load reducing

and

> if

> > > so what is he finding? Is is there a link on this specifically?

> >

> >

> > I have no relationship with Dr. Prociuk except having listened

to

> his

> > conference calls. Many others on this list and the AutismNCD

list

> are

> > actually going to see him as their doctor. They are more likely

to

> be

> > able to answer some of your questions.

> >

> > What I understand is that he did indeed go through a period of

> observing

> > the excretions tests, but that this has never been a large focus

> for his

> > work.

> >

> >

> > > 2. How long does it take for people to be cleared of the

metals,

> on

> > > the average (just an estimate)?

> >

> >

> > Don't know. No studies have been done regarding this. The costs

> for an

> > invidiual to do this type of testing is prohibitive or if

they've

> done

> > these tests, I've not seen them described anywhere.

> >

> > >

> > > 3. Does he think NCD crosses the brain barrier and gets metals

> bound

> > > up in the organs/brain like the ALA? How does he test for that

> (e.g.

> > > does he give ALA and see if it stirs up any brain mercury?

That

> would

> > > be the only way I can think of to check for it).

> >

> >

> > The animal studies have not been done yet to answer the BBB

> question.

> > There are discussions with a major research scientist who has

done

> many

> > of these tests for other chelators. I'd quess we'll have that

answer

> > within 12 months.

> >

> > Dr. P focus is results. How the results are being generated

using

> NCD is

> > not his focus. Recommend you listen to his audios at

> > www.zeoliteautismstudy.com <http://www.zeoliteautismstudy.com>

> >

> >

> > > 4. Lastly, what metals does NCD address? What metals has it

not

> been

> > > found to address?

> > >

> > Here's an excerpt from a recent conversation with Rik Deitsch,

> > biochemist and Chair of Waiora SAB.

> >

> > Rik: " Well, it's not just higher affinity. It's the order

> > that which they are excreted. For example, mercury and cadmium

> seemed

> > to come off right away. And we see them at very high levels the

> first

> > week, even the first day and four days. You look at one day,

four

> days,

> > seven days, one week thereafter. Right away we see mercury and

> cadmium

> > come off, then those levels drop and we start to see things

like

> tin,

> > aluminum, bismuth, antimony, these things come off, it's really

> > orders of magnitude. So we know that there's a very clear

affinity

> > series for the zeolite. And, then what we'll see is at maybe day

> > thirty it starts excreting mercury again. "

> >

> > Forrist: " Where's the lead and arsenic show up? "

> >

> > Rik: " Arsenic is right after aluminum. There is mercury,

cadmium,

> > aluminum, tin and then antimony and arsenic came out about the

same

> > time. Lead came out throughout. There were low levels of lead

> > excretion as well as low levels of cadmium, at the beginning,

which

> > increased along with the other ones throughout. We're going to

have

> > graphs and charts that kinda show this, by metal when they seem

to

> > excreted but it clearly shows that there is an affinity in the

> zeolite

> > and that is not just that it is taking willy nilly everything it

can

> > find. But there is an obvious excretion pattern based on the

> charge and

> > the atomic radii of the element.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > > Thank you for your information,

> > >

> > > Daisy

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

> Our study is on track to be approved by the IRB soon. In the

> meantime, I can say that the doctors involved include Dr. Jim ,

> Dr. Rao of Dallas, TX and Dr. Cave of Baton Rouge as well

> as a couple other professionals who work with ASD children daily.

Are you saying those doctors have been studying NCD? How are they

involved exactly?

Nell

[Guest guest]

Dr. Rao is the Lead Principle Investigator overseeing participants.

Dr. Cave is co-PI overseeing participants

Dr. helped with the protocol design and is anticipated to be

handling the data analysis.

>

> > Our study is on track to be approved by the IRB soon. In the

> > meantime, I can say that the doctors involved include Dr. Jim

,

> > Dr. Rao of Dallas, TX and Dr. Cave of Baton Rouge as

well

> > as a couple other professionals who work with ASD children daily.

>

> Are you saying those doctors have been studying NCD? How are they

> involved exactly?

>

> Nell

>