Andy: Any opinion on Natural Cellular Defense (NCD)?

[Guest guest]

Had anyone tried Natural Cellular Defense (NCD)?

Is there any scientific explanation to it (Andy?)?

NCD is cellular zeolite. Waioria Natural Cellular Defense (NCD) is the

brand name.

Thanks,

Vera

[Guest guest]

Vera,

Check through the archives for prior discussions on NCD. I feel I can

safely say that Andy will tell you NCD is not worth your time (he'd

put it more colorfully).

There are proponents of NCD that actively participate on this list,

but I recall them being vendors of the product and not parents. Could

be wrong, though. I have not used it or really researched it.

Pam

>

> Had anyone tried Natural Cellular Defense (NCD)?

> Is there any scientific explanation to it (Andy?)?

>

> NCD is cellular zeolite. Waioria Natural Cellular Defense (NCD) is

the

> brand name.

>

> Thanks,

> Vera

>

[Guest guest]

Like I said, check the archives. There was quite a bit of

back/forth discussion about the merits of zeolites. More than just

the blanket dirt statement.

Pam

>

> In a message dated 24/05/2006 22:05:49 GMT Daylight Time,

phaselow@...

> writes:

>

> Check through the archives for prior discussions on NCD. I feel

I can

> safely say that Andy will tell you NCD is not worth your time

(he'd

> put it more colorfully).

>

>

>

> >>>Andy said it was expensive dirt!

>

> We are using it and seeing good gains, we even had a word - will

update later

>

> Mandi in UK

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

>

> In a message dated 24/05/2006 22:05:49 GMT Daylight Time, phaselow@...

> writes:

>

> Check through the archives for prior discussions on NCD. I feel I

can

> safely say that Andy will tell you NCD is not worth your time (he'd

> put it more colorfully).

>

>

>

> >>>Andy said it was expensive dirt!

>

> We are using it and seeing good gains, we even had a word - will

update later

>

> Mandi in UK

>

>

[Guest guest]

I do believe that everyone should take the time and actually study all

options. I mean, wouldnt it be absolutely ridiculous to follow one

tedious protocol, round after round, month after month.. if there was a

better and safer way to do it faster, more efficient and without all

the side-effects? It is not **hypothetical** that NCD removes metals

from the body.

Reese

>

>

> This is EXACTLY the point. If anyone looks carefully at most of the

> claims that **for profit companies** make about their **hypothetical

> chelation products** they will find that the things they use to back

> their claims are just a **big huge meaningless smokescreen** - they

> aren't really providing solid evidence to back the products at

[Guest guest]

>

> Actually according to the studies provided by the company selling

it, it is

> hypothetical. Their studies have proven nothing except that it helps

> excretion when someone is exposed to high levels of heavy metals

but it has

> not shown to date anyway, that it removes metals that are in tissue

or bone.

> Until they show it, it is hypothetical. Also, they haven't shown us

anything

> relating to autism and its effects or lack of side-effects. NCD has

not been

> shown to be better, safer, or more efficient. If it has, forward

the studies

> and proof.

>

> Mark Schauss

> www.markschauss.com

Mark,

So they have proven it removes high levels of metals. Thats a start.

From bone and tissue? I am not certain about any of that. As far as

the autism and it's effects, etc. - It is a relatively new

product..that I for one feel they never intended quite the response

from the AS community (there are tests underway now.. many people are

awaiting the results.) Right now all we have is word-of-mouth which

definitely must be looked at with scrutiny.

Now, the question I asked was " if it were found to be more safe, more

effective, etc.. " . I asked a question..didnt make a statement. On the

other hand, Andy did make a statement calling it " harmless dirt " .

Arent you curious to what " studies and proof " Andy has to back up

that statement? If we are going to be objective, lets be so on both

sides. And please dont get me wrong. I admire Andy and the work he

has done..and I do truly believe that his work has helped many

children on the spectrum.. so I am not running Andy down at all. If

anything most people here respect his opinion, but at the same time

have questions regarding the " new and improved! " . I personally would

like all the pros and cons for such products, and if Andy can

provide, outside of " harmless dirt " , then please do so.

There are some parents who are claiming to be getting words after a

few weeks on NCD...compared to a few words after several

(hundrendish?) rounds. Objective? it's either true or not. But the

one thing that holds true is that there will be those who try to

peddle into this " market " with some 'new and improved!' I say stick

to what you know works..and Andy's protocol works. I also say to keep

an open mind, and a tight pocketbook, to all the 'new and improved'.

Someone is going to replace the BetaMax with a DVD one of these

days

Reese

[Guest guest]

Many more children have benefited from chelation therapy using

Andy's protocol than have had any success from NCD. Until evidence

comes to the surface that says otherwise, I reserve the right to

question the claims that NCD is beneficial, safe and more effective

than proper use of proven chelation methods.

>

> Mark Schauss

>

> BTW, check out this blog about autism from Pat Sullivan

>

> www.patsullivan.com

I agree that Andy's protocol has helped more then the NCD. Hundreds

more have used Andy's over the years then NCD..being that it is

pretty new.

The one thing that I 'kinda trust' about the NCD is that those within

the AS community came to the NCD.. and not the NCD coming to us, imo.

( I know ..there were a few peddling it here and in the other

groups).. Another thing that I do trust about the NCD is that my son

has made great gains on NCD (I know.. 'great gains!' is subjective).

But nothing to date has made that much of a difference in him, his

ability to focus - which has been reflected in his school work and

grades, his eye contact, vocab, reading and comp.. and his over-all

emotional state.

But it all takes time. Takes time for the right people to do the

right studies to see for sure what is actually taking place. I have

no doubt that the results will come in..one way or another. And it

sounds like the two of us are not too different in wanting to see

proof on paper..but what we have now are many positive testimonies

that are subjective.

Thanks for the link, btw. 'Phazers on " Full Debunk " ' was funny

Reese

[Guest guest]

>

> Trying something out that has no validation can be dangerous.

But..but ...Andy said it was " harmless " ??!!

heheh *jib*

[Guest guest]

When I did a search on this stuff I never found anything that says

it crossess the BBB and removes metals from the brain. Isn't that

what we want?? Maybe it does I just didn't find it.

I think... in a year or two this will end up like the PCA-Rx and

other chelating alternatives. It will for some but not for most.

> >>

> >> In a message dated 24/05/2006 22:05:49 GMT Daylight Time,

phaselow@

> >> writes:

> >>

> >> Check through the archives for prior discussions on NCD. I

feel I

> > can

> >> safely say that Andy will tell you NCD is not worth your time

(he'd

> >> put it more colorfully).

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >> >>>Andy said it was expensive dirt!

> >>

> >> We are using it and seeing good gains, we even had a word -

will

> > update later

> >>

> >> Mandi in UK

> >>

> >>

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > =======================================================

> >

[Guest guest]

I guess one could also call diamonds, coal. The point is, even the

quote by make never calls NCD " volcanic ash " , rather it reports on

the location and mechanism that creates a wide variety of minerals.

These types of discussions tend to could the issue not clarify it.

Operating in the relm of " gross generalizations " is neither

productive nor really meaningful. Heck one can say zeolites cause

cancer and are harmful. Are they accurate? Sure, asbestos is a type

of " zeolite " . Just like one can say bacteria are deadly!! Does this

mean we want to kill all bacteria in the body? Absolutley not, they

are vital to our health.

The key is, one needs to keep the focus on the important questions.

A question such as safety is an important question. To the fda, the

type of zeolite we are using is safe. For them to classify them

as " food additive " , they had to be convinced with studies.

The question of metal excretion is an important question. Does it

cause excretion in those with ASD? We are looking at that

specifically in the upcoming study. Does clinoptilolite (the type of

zeolite that is NCD) extract heavy metals? Animal studies shows that

it does indeed remove mercury, lead and arsenic. Other studies in

the publishing pipeline show that NCD does increase heavy metal

excretion significantly.

Will NCD turn out to be like secretion, a product that had certain

anecdotal success that was difficult to replicate in studies? I

guess only time will tell.

We each take the path that makes most sense to us personally. For

me, it has been a path to provide the energy necessary to bring

useful clinical studies to these important questions regarding NCD.

---------

Sidebar: a TV program that may be of interest:

http://rescuechronicle.blogspot.com/

Dateline NBC: Sunday, June 4th

By Generation Rescue

Barring the unforseen, Dateline NBC will air a story on biomedical

intervention and autism. The story will focus on a double-blind

study being run in Arizona by Dr. Jim using Oral DMSA.

We don't know what conclusions the report will draw, and we don't

know how it will be perceived in the biomedical community. We do

know that the producer feels the report was very fair, and that NBC

has gotten plenty of flack from the AAP and others saying

it's " irresponsible " to give this topic air time. Therefore, we're

hopeful.

We also know that NBC received videotape from dozens of parents,

showing their children before and after biomedical treatment. We

hope this " montage of hope " will figure prominently in their report.

Stay tuned!

> Reese they haven't proven that it removes high levels of metals.

What

> their

> miner study showed is that adult males who were exposed to high

levels of

> heavy metals excreted more with NCD than with placebo. Placebo

controlled

> studies of this kind need to be measured against a third item

which shows

> some efficacy in removing heavy metals otherwise the study itself

while

> suggestive, is by no means any proof.

>

> As for Andy's statement, I won't be his spokesman but I can't

disagree

> personally unless more data comes out. What is zeolite but

volcanic ash?

> The burden of proof is on the side of NCD not Andy.

>

> Bottom line is, I have seen countless products touted as helping

people,

> especially autistic children that didn't pan out. We are all right

to be

> skeptical. This is not betamax versus dvd's. Claims have been

made (outside

> this group as well as inside) that are real reaches. I have had

calls from

> Waiora distributors who have made some of the most outrageous

claims

> imaginable many of whom the company would certainly disavow.

Still, I have

> not judged the product, I have questioned the claims. Many more

children

> have benefited from chelation therapy using Andy's protocol than

have had

> any success from NCD. Until evidence comes to the surface that says

> otherwise, I reserve the right to question the claims that NCD is

> beneficial, safe and more effective than proper use of proven

chelation

> methods.

>

> Mark Schauss

>

> BTW, check out this blog about autism from Pat Sullivan

>

> www.patsullivan.com

>

>

>

> Mark,

>

> So they have proven it removes high levels of metals. Thats a

start.

> >From bone and tissue? I am not certain about any of that. As far

as

> the autism and it's effects, etc. - It is a relatively new

> product..that I for one feel they never intended quite the

response

> from the AS community (there are tests underway now.. many people

are

> awaiting the results.) Right now all we have is word-of-mouth

which

> definitely must be looked at with scrutiny.

>

> Now, the question I asked was " if it were found to be more safe,

more

> effective, etc.. " . I asked a question..didnt make a statement. On

the

> other hand, Andy did make a statement calling it " harmless dirt " .

> Arent you curious to what " studies and proof " Andy has to back up

> that statement? If we are going to be objective, lets be so on

both

> sides. And please dont get me wrong. I admire Andy and the work he

> has done..and I do truly believe that his work has helped many

> children on the spectrum.. so I am not running Andy down at all.

If

> anything most people here respect his opinion, but at the same

time

> have questions regarding the " new and improved! " . I personally

would

> like all the pros and cons for such products, and if Andy can

> provide, outside of " harmless dirt " , then please do so.

>

> There are some parents who are claiming to be getting words after

a

> few weeks on NCD...compared to a few words after several

> (hundrendish?) rounds. Objective? it's either true or not. But the

> one thing that holds true is that there will be those who try to

> peddle into this " market " with some 'new and improved!' I say

stick

> to what you know works..and Andy's protocol works. I also say to

keep

> an open mind, and a tight pocketbook, to all the 'new and

improved'.

> Someone is going to replace the BetaMax with a DVD one of these

> days

>

> Reese

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> =======================================================

>

[Guest guest]

>

> You're right. I missed that it doesn't cross the BBB. Thanks for

pointing

> that out. Learn something everyday.

Isnt that why AC recommends ALA? It isnt determined yet if NCD crosses

the BBB..that I know of. I havnt read where it does or doesnt.

Reese

[Guest guest]

Mark,

Actually as a " trace mineral " NCD is useless. It is not metabolized by

the body in anyway. It is not stored in the body. It adds nothing to

the body. While it must be called a " supplement " , it does not

" supplement " the body in the normal understanding of the word. It falls

into a category that does not yet have a word, at least that I'm aware

of.

To compare the price of a raw mineral that will not accomplish what NCD

does, totally discounts the many years of research and development the

developer of the patented process went through to turn " worthless dirt "

into a remarkable product.

Is the price worth it? That's an individual choice. The reports I hear

from many parents is that it is saving them considerable money and

producing more noticible results in weeks when compared than months or

even over a year of chelation therapy. These are results appearing after

these long periods of chelation. Yes, it is a matter of time. These

parents wish they could roll back the clock and start NCD a year ago

instead of the chelators they were using.

Are they upset? Of course not. They made the best choices on the

information they had at the time. As a note, most of the NCD

conversation has been respectfully moved out of this forum to AutismNCD

so that parents who wish to hear directly from parents can do so. And

the steady stream of positive reports is encouraging.

Mark, I'm just surprised at your remarks sometimes. They don't seem up

to the excellence that I believe you strive for in being fair and

unbiased. Like all areas of commerce, there are many factors that make

up price. The market is ripe with examples of product price not being

connected to either current cost to manufacture or product quality.

As far as all the mark-up to cover distributors commissions, if one

looks at the true manuafacturers cost of most items covered by patent

with little competition, one finds huge mark-ups regardless of method of

marketing. They must recover the R & D costs somehow.

Let's look at traditional marketing. A manufacturer sells to a

distributor who sells to a wholesaler who sells to retailer who sells to

the end user. Adding in the cost of marketing, and you'll find many

examples of non-mlm products selling at margins far in excess of mlm but

more often for the truely unique products the margins are similar, it

just the money is allocated in a different fashion.

Again though, this isn't the issue. Let's keep our eye on the ball.

Studies take time. The product is safe and available now. So how does

one make a decision for their own family? Well...

Is it producing results and how common are the results? ly, where

are the 100s of people who have used NCD for weeks or months and seen no

results? Why are they not speaking up? This list environment would be

far more supportive of those voices than to the voices who are getting

results, yet, so far, we are not hearing from them. Why do we only hear

disbelief from those with no experience? My guess is some may (or must)

exist but it seems not many when compared to those who are very glad

they " risked " spending a little money to see if there is a benefit for

their child.

respectfully,

Forrist

> >

> > Trying something out that has no validation can be dangerous.

>

> But..but ...Andy said it was " harmless " ??!!

>

> heheh *jib*

>

>

>

>

>

>

> =======================================================

>

[Guest guest]

, contact me off list..I have a challange for you

Reese

> >

> > Trying something out that has no validation can be dangerous.

>

> But..but ...Andy said it was " harmless " ??!!

>

> heheh *jib*

>

>

>

>

>

>

> =======================================================

>

[Guest guest]

I wouldnt recommend taking 'any ol zeolite'. The patented process of

NCD is what makes it safe and effective. " Raw zeolite " , if you will,

is not safe. There is a considerable process involved in the

development and production of NCD. There have been other zeolite

products out there, but without the micronized refining patented

process, as such with NCD, user beware. Zeolite naturally has several

minerals in it that are not health friendly. The process by which

they refine NCD strips away any unhealthy elements leaving only a

structure that is " pure " , safe and effective.

Reese

> >

> > Trying something out that has no validation can be dangerous.

>

> But..but ...Andy said it was " harmless " ??!!

>

> heheh *jib*

>

>

>

>

>

>

> =======================================================

>

[Guest guest]

Since NCD uses a patented process to clean out and purify the zeolite,

there is no other " like " it on the market. There is a power zeolite that

is (or was) on the market. If you check the lab analysis on it, it

discloses that it contains some heavy metals and other items.

The problem with power is that zeolite naturally draws heavy metals into

it's cage structure. Therefore, in nature it is normal and reasonable

that the zeolite " cage " is 60-90% full of these items naturally. What

the patented process does is empty the zeolite cage so that nothing else

remains except traces of calcium and potasium which since they have a

weak bond with the zeolite are " kicked out " and replaced with heavy

metals which have a strong affinity for zeolite.

> >

> > Trying something out that has no validation can be dangerous.

>

> But..but ...Andy said it was " harmless " ??!!

>

> heheh *jib*

>

>

>

>

>

>

> =======================================================

>

[Guest guest]

Mark,

Unfortunately, my answer is likely to be less than satisfactory for you.

Even so here goes...

The question has multiple parts...

1. Does clinoptilolite (type of zeolite) naturally attract and remove

heavy metals? Yes. Many studies have demonstrated this.

Search Pubmed: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?DB=pubmed

<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?DB=pubmed> for

clinoptilolite and it will turn up 161 studies, as of today. To make

it easier though, check out a few pdfs in the files of AutismNCD. Here's

a few study titles:

* The removal of heavy metal cations by natural zeolites

* The application of natural zeolites for mercury removal: from

laboratory tests to industrial scale

* Lead(II) retention by Alfisol and clinoptilolite: cation balance

and pH effect

Question 2. Does clinoptilolite naturally collect heavy metals in nature

when in its raw form? I cannot point to a specific study but this is so.

Question 3: Does the patented processing of clinoptilolite into NCD

zeolite remove all of the naturally occuring contaminants? Yes, and

yes, the specifics of this study are not yet published. I will tell you

that those who have spoke to the independent firm who did the processing

are satisfied.

Here's a summary of what can currently be said without risking the right

to publish the material:

Extensive quantitative analysis and quality assurance testing has been

conducted on the Natural Cellular Defense by third-party laboratories.

These

tests included:

- Inductively Coupled Plasma-Optical Emission Spectroscopy (ICP-OES)

- Gas-Chromatography-Mass Spectroscopy (GC-MS)

- Atomic Absorption Spectroscopy (AAS)

- Elemental Analysis (EA)

- High Performance Liquid Chromatography (HPLC)

- Thin Layer Chromatography (TLC)

- Particle size analysis

- pH analysis

- Determine mg of zeolite per drop of NCD

- Microanalysis for contamination

The findings indicated the following:

- A bottle of NCD contains a suspension of highly purified and

activated

zeolite

- The activation process removes most trace elements, leaving some

residual

H2O, Na+ (sodium), K+ (potassium) and Ca+2 (calcium) in the pores

- 99.36% of particles are smaller than 5 microns

- pH was 6.13

- No detectable contaminants from the manufacturing process and no

microbial growth

The conclusions made by the researchers were:

- NCD is completely safe to use

- Because of the activation process, the adsorptive properties of NCD

are

maximized

- The small particle size ensures even the inner-most pores have the

opportunity to be used to remove unwanted toxins from the body

- Unwanted trace metals have been washed out

- NCD contains about 9 to 10 mg of zeolite per drop

Aside from the safety analysis and a review of the pertinent literature,

we

conducted several controlled clinical studies to evaluate the efficacy

of

the product. In every study (we're up to nine now) the NCD has exceeded

our

expectations. We are writing up several of the studies now and should

have

at least two publications by the end of this summer. The analysis of the

product will appear in the publications under the " Materials and

Methods "

section.

Mark, if you are serious about wanting to investigate the probable

accuracy of the statements being made then do the homework, invest the

time to read the studies in Pubmed. Other researchers involved with

autism have done so, and find the material compelling.

Forrist

-- In , " Mark Schauss " <schauss@...>

wrote:

>

> Forrist,

>

> The following comment you posted last night is interesting but I'd

like to

> know where the data for the " cage " structure and the affinity for

drawing in

> heavy metals comes from. Any studies or data on this? I hope the

answer

> isn't " its coming " or " we're waiting for a peer-reviewed journal to

pick it

> up. "

>

> This is the kind of data that should be easy to post if there is any

> substantiation to the claims. I hope there is as it is something that

if

> true has potential.

>

> " The problem with power is that zeolite naturally draws heavy metals

into

> it's cage structure. Therefore, in nature it is normal and reasonable

> that the zeolite " cage " is 60-90% full of these items naturally. What

> the patented process does is empty the zeolite cage so that nothing

else

> remains except traces of calcium and potasium which since they have a

> weak bond with the zeolite are " kicked out " and replaced with heavy

> metals which have a strong affinity for zeolite. "

>

[Guest guest]

>> I will actually try to get the papers next week and at least give it

an academic review without prejudice. <<

Great.

>> Glad that tests were done on purity. Any available to review? <<

Quote for Rik: The analysis of the product will appear in the

publications under the " Materials and Methods " section.

Since it is not necessary for this to be released to satisfy any safety

needs, as far as FDA or Investigational Reveiw Boards are concerned, and

these are significantly stringent parties, they are not interested in

answering the questions of uncommitted others, therefore the details

will not be released prior to publication.

I've requested and the response is clear. No. They will take no risk on

having released details potentially diminishing the publication value

for a peer journal.

> Any studies done against other zeolite products? Any planned?

No. No. Of what value would that be to the company? There are no

competitors that even have a zeolite product free of contaminants. The

zeolite cage is to strong to get the junk out without destroying the

zeolite itself, at least without using the patented processing system.

>Any studies

> done against other known and proven chelators?

The company has not and is not considering autism as a primary market

for them. They are far more interested in demonstrating the benefit for

the average person and a variety of other health issues and benefits

that have been observed.

They are funding many studies. In each case the study focuses on

acheiving positive health changes not the mechanics or comparisions to

other products. If these studies are to be done it will be because

independent researchers such as myself choose to take on that task.

Until this study is complete, I don't anticipate taking on any addional

studies on NCD.

> Trust me when I say I am not just focusing on your products as I do

this

> with every product and every claim I look at.

NP.

Forrist

>

[Guest guest]

>> Any studies

>> done against other known and proven chelators?

> The company has not and is not considering autism as a primary market

> for them. They are far more interested in demonstrating the benefit

> for the average person and a variety of other health issues and

> benefits that have been observed.

Forrist, I think that you're on the wrong board. We all have enough

of a burden without having hucksters hawking their unproven, expensive

products here. I'm getting tired of reading your evasive crap.