Re: Re: Andy: Any opinion on Natural Cellular Defense (NCD)?

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 24/05/2006 22:05:49 GMT Daylight Time, phaselow@...

writes:

Check through the archives for prior discussions on NCD. I feel I can

safely say that Andy will tell you NCD is not worth your time (he'd

put it more colorfully).

>>>Andy said it was expensive dirt!

We are using it and seeing good gains, we even had a word - will update later

Mandi in UK

[Guest guest]

I have a great deal of respect for Andy Cutler. I am using his protocal on my

son to remove mercury.

I have never used NCD. However, I don't think its appropriate to berate a

product without being specific. I would need back-up to the statement

" expensive dirt! " . Something more specific like the ingredients are known

vitamins or some proof.

Bottom line -- If you can't back the claim with substantiation -- then the

berating itself may be dirt. Worse yet, if NCD has any value, then someone may

get convinced not to even try it.

Mum231ASD@... wrote:

In a message dated 24/05/2006 22:05:49 GMT Daylight Time, phaselow@...

writes:

Check through the archives for prior discussions on NCD. I feel I can

safely say that Andy will tell you NCD is not worth your time (he'd

put it more colorfully).

>>>Andy said it was expensive dirt!

We are using it and seeing good gains, we even had a word - will update later

Mandi in UK

[Guest guest]

I have a great deal of respect for Andy Cutler. I am using his protocal on my

son to remove mercury.

I have never used NCD. However, I don't think its appropriate to berate a

product without being specific. I would need back-up to the statement

" expensive dirt! " . Something more specific like the ingredients are known

vitamins or some proof.

Bottom line -- If you can't back the claim with substantiation -- then the

berating itself may be dirt. Worse yet, if NCD has any value, then someone may

get convinced not to even try it.

Mum231ASD@... wrote:

In a message dated 24/05/2006 22:05:49 GMT Daylight Time, phaselow@...

writes:

Check through the archives for prior discussions on NCD. I feel I can

safely say that Andy will tell you NCD is not worth your time (he'd

put it more colorfully).

>>>Andy said it was expensive dirt!

We are using it and seeing good gains, we even had a word - will update later

Mandi in UK

[Guest guest]

My problem here is their studies (Waiora's NCD) are not applicable to the

autism community. They have not shown us any data that shows it is any

better than far cheaper and more proven products and while some children my

indeed improve, many more will who will not, will have lost valuable time

trying more time tested and validated protocols. Our children are kids for

only a short time and time is a critical element that cannot be wasted.

Mark Schauss

www.markschauss.com

Re: [ ] Re: Andy: Any opinion on Natural Cellular

Defense (NCD)?

I have a great deal of respect for Andy Cutler. I am using his protocal on

my son to remove mercury.

I have never used NCD. However, I don't think its appropriate to berate a

product without being specific. I would need back-up to the statement

" expensive dirt! " . Something more specific like the ingredients are known

vitamins or some proof.

Bottom line -- If you can't back the claim with substantiation -- then the

berating itself may be dirt. Worse yet, if NCD has any value, then someone

may get convinced not to even try it.

Mum231ASD@... wrote:

In a message dated 24/05/2006 22:05:49 GMT Daylight Time,

phaselow@...

writes:

Check through the archives for prior discussions on NCD. I feel I can

safely say that Andy will tell you NCD is not worth your time (he'd

put it more colorfully).

>>>Andy said it was expensive dirt!

We are using it and seeing good gains, we even had a word - will update

later

Mandi in UK

[Guest guest]

Actually according to the studies provided by the company selling it, it is

hypothetical. Their studies have proven nothing except that it helps

excretion when someone is exposed to high levels of heavy metals but it has

not shown to date anyway, that it removes metals that are in tissue or bone.

Until they show it, it is hypothetical. Also, they haven't shown us anything

relating to autism and its effects or lack of side-effects. NCD has not been

shown to be better, safer, or more efficient. If it has, forward the studies

and proof.

Mark Schauss

www.markschauss.com

[ ] Re: Andy: Any opinion on Natural Cellular Defense

(NCD)?

I do believe that everyone should take the time and actually study all

options. I mean, wouldnt it be absolutely ridiculous to follow one

tedious protocol, round after round, month after month.. if there was a

better and safer way to do it faster, more efficient and without all

the side-effects? It is not **hypothetical** that NCD removes metals

from the body.

Reese

>

>

> This is EXACTLY the point. If anyone looks carefully at most of the

> claims that **for profit companies** make about their **hypothetical

> chelation products** they will find that the things they use to back

> their claims are just a **big huge meaningless smokescreen** - they

> aren't really providing solid evidence to back the products at

=======================================================

[Guest guest]

If only they offer money-back guarantee. When the dealer

quoted me Xango mangosteen juice that 2 months' supply

is all it takes to see obvious results, I offerred her 10

times the amount she asked for for that 2 months' supply

- she declined. This is an indication of lack of confidence

in the product by the dealer.

On 5/26/06, Mark Schauss <schauss@...> wrote:

>

> Actually according to the studies provided by the company selling it, it

> is

> hypothetical. Their studies have proven nothing except that it helps

> excretion when someone is exposed to high levels of heavy metals but it

> has

> not shown to date anyway, that it removes metals that are in tissue or

> bone.

> Until they show it, it is hypothetical. Also, they haven't shown us

> anything

> relating to autism and its effects or lack of side-effects. NCD has not

> been

> shown to be better, safer, or more efficient. If it has, forward the

> studies

> and proof.

>

> Mark Schauss

> www.markschauss.com

>

> [ ] Re: Andy: Any opinion on Natural Cellular

> Defense

> (NCD)?

>

>

> I do believe that everyone should take the time and actually study all

> options. I mean, wouldnt it be absolutely ridiculous to follow one

> tedious protocol, round after round, month after month.. if there was a

> better and safer way to do it faster, more efficient and without all

> the side-effects? It is not **hypothetical** that NCD removes metals

> from the body.

>

>

> Reese

>

>

>

>

> >

> >

> > This is EXACTLY the point. If anyone looks carefully at most of the

> > claims that **for profit companies** make about their **hypothetical

> > chelation products** they will find that the things they use to back

> > their claims are just a **big huge meaningless smokescreen** - they

> > aren't really providing solid evidence to back the products at

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> =======================================================

>

[Guest guest]

Reese they haven't proven that it removes high levels of metals. What their

miner study showed is that adult males who were exposed to high levels of

heavy metals excreted more with NCD than with placebo. Placebo controlled

studies of this kind need to be measured against a third item which shows

some efficacy in removing heavy metals otherwise the study itself while

suggestive, is by no means any proof.

As for Andy's statement, I won't be his spokesman but I can't disagree

personally unless more data comes out. What is zeolite but volcanic ash?

The burden of proof is on the side of NCD not Andy.

Bottom line is, I have seen countless products touted as helping people,

especially autistic children that didn't pan out. We are all right to be

skeptical. This is not betamax versus dvd's. Claims have been made (outside

this group as well as inside) that are real reaches. I have had calls from

Waiora distributors who have made some of the most outrageous claims

imaginable many of whom the company would certainly disavow. Still, I have

not judged the product, I have questioned the claims. Many more children

have benefited from chelation therapy using Andy's protocol than have had

any success from NCD. Until evidence comes to the surface that says

otherwise, I reserve the right to question the claims that NCD is

beneficial, safe and more effective than proper use of proven chelation

methods.

Mark Schauss

BTW, check out this blog about autism from Pat Sullivan

www.patsullivan.com

Mark,

So they have proven it removes high levels of metals. Thats a start.

>From bone and tissue? I am not certain about any of that. As far as

the autism and it's effects, etc. - It is a relatively new

product..that I for one feel they never intended quite the response

from the AS community (there are tests underway now.. many people are

awaiting the results.) Right now all we have is word-of-mouth which

definitely must be looked at with scrutiny.

Now, the question I asked was " if it were found to be more safe, more

effective, etc.. " . I asked a question..didnt make a statement. On the

other hand, Andy did make a statement calling it " harmless dirt " .

Arent you curious to what " studies and proof " Andy has to back up

that statement? If we are going to be objective, lets be so on both

sides. And please dont get me wrong. I admire Andy and the work he

has done..and I do truly believe that his work has helped many

children on the spectrum.. so I am not running Andy down at all. If

anything most people here respect his opinion, but at the same time

have questions regarding the " new and improved! " . I personally would

like all the pros and cons for such products, and if Andy can

provide, outside of " harmless dirt " , then please do so.

There are some parents who are claiming to be getting words after a

few weeks on NCD...compared to a few words after several

(hundrendish?) rounds. Objective? it's either true or not. But the

one thing that holds true is that there will be those who try to

peddle into this " market " with some 'new and improved!' I say stick

to what you know works..and Andy's protocol works. I also say to keep

an open mind, and a tight pocketbook, to all the 'new and improved'.

Someone is going to replace the BetaMax with a DVD one of these

days

Reese

=======================================================

[Guest guest]

I've been reading posts here for about 6 months. I read lots of " Andy said

this " and " Andy said that " . I think its important to note that no one's word

should be considered gospel -- including Andy's. Like all other humans he's

been wrong.

I'm not trying to downplay his AC protocal which has thus far proven to be

FANATASTIC. I believe Andy has a tendancy to have absolute beliefs -- perhaps

that comes from his success in treating mercury poisoning. His answers lend me

to believe that he sees things as black & white. Sometimes this is needed when

we are confused. -- Just my 2 pennies.

rheaton_stormcast <rheaton_stormcast@...> wrote:

>

> Actually according to the studies provided by the company selling

it, it is

> hypothetical. Their studies have proven nothing except that it helps

> excretion when someone is exposed to high levels of heavy metals

but it has

> not shown to date anyway, that it removes metals that are in tissue

or bone.

> Until they show it, it is hypothetical. Also, they haven't shown us

anything

> relating to autism and its effects or lack of side-effects. NCD has

not been

> shown to be better, safer, or more efficient. If it has, forward

the studies

> and proof.

>

> Mark Schauss

> www.markschauss.com

Mark,

So they have proven it removes high levels of metals. Thats a start.

From bone and tissue? I am not certain about any of that. As far as

the autism and it's effects, etc. - It is a relatively new

product..that I for one feel they never intended quite the response

from the AS community (there are tests underway now.. many people are

awaiting the results.) Right now all we have is word-of-mouth which

definitely must be looked at with scrutiny.

Now, the question I asked was " if it were found to be more safe, more

effective, etc.. " . I asked a question..didnt make a statement. On the

other hand, Andy did make a statement calling it " harmless dirt " .

Arent you curious to what " studies and proof " Andy has to back up

that statement? If we are going to be objective, lets be so on both

sides. And please dont get me wrong. I admire Andy and the work he

has done..and I do truly believe that his work has helped many

children on the spectrum.. so I am not running Andy down at all. If

anything most people here respect his opinion, but at the same time

have questions regarding the " new and improved! " . I personally would

like all the pros and cons for such products, and if Andy can

provide, outside of " harmless dirt " , then please do so.

There are some parents who are claiming to be getting words after a

few weeks on NCD...compared to a few words after several

(hundrendish?) rounds. Objective? it's either true or not. But the

one thing that holds true is that there will be those who try to

peddle into this " market " with some 'new and improved!' I say stick

to what you know works..and Andy's protocol works. I also say to keep

an open mind, and a tight pocketbook, to all the 'new and improved'.

Someone is going to replace the BetaMax with a DVD one of these

days

Reese

=======================================================

[Guest guest]

Mark,

I see your point.

However -- How would a person find out if something works until they try it?

So far the AC protocal has been OK for my son (knock wood). I doubt I would try

the NCD stuff -- for now at least.

There are so many mainstream doctors who blast chelation. So many who say

that autism is not treatable. So many at my son's school who keep telling me

that autism is not treatable and implying I'm wasting my time. What if we

listened to them and did not give the AC protocal a chance? People have made

statements like " volcanic ash " with regards to the AC protocal. I've heard of

things like " dangerous " and so on.

I think all your questions are valid (safe, beneficial etc). Sounds like

there is no proof to state that NCD is effective but sounds like NCD is more

than " volcanic ash " . Do you think its dangerous to say things like that?

Someone may not consider trying something that may help their kid. Maybe I'm

making too much out of this -- whatever.

Mark Schauss <schauss@...> wrote:

Reese they haven't proven that it removes high levels of metals. What their

miner study showed is that adult males who were exposed to high levels of

heavy metals excreted more with NCD than with placebo. Placebo controlled

studies of this kind need to be measured against a third item which shows

some efficacy in removing heavy metals otherwise the study itself while

suggestive, is by no means any proof.

As for Andy's statement, I won't be his spokesman but I can't disagree

personally unless more data comes out. What is zeolite but volcanic ash?

The burden of proof is on the side of NCD not Andy.

Bottom line is, I have seen countless products touted as helping people,

especially autistic children that didn't pan out. We are all right to be

skeptical. This is not betamax versus dvd's. Claims have been made (outside

this group as well as inside) that are real reaches. I have had calls from

Waiora distributors who have made some of the most outrageous claims

imaginable many of whom the company would certainly disavow. Still, I have

not judged the product, I have questioned the claims. Many more children

have benefited from chelation therapy using Andy's protocol than have had

any success from NCD. Until evidence comes to the surface that says

otherwise, I reserve the right to question the claims that NCD is

beneficial, safe and more effective than proper use of proven chelation

methods.

Mark Schauss

BTW, check out this blog about autism from Pat Sullivan

www.patsullivan.com

Mark,

So they have proven it removes high levels of metals. Thats a start.

>From bone and tissue? I am not certain about any of that. As far as

the autism and it's effects, etc. - It is a relatively new

product..that I for one feel they never intended quite the response

from the AS community (there are tests underway now.. many people are

awaiting the results.) Right now all we have is word-of-mouth which

definitely must be looked at with scrutiny.

Now, the question I asked was " if it were found to be more safe, more

effective, etc.. " . I asked a question..didnt make a statement. On the

other hand, Andy did make a statement calling it " harmless dirt " .

Arent you curious to what " studies and proof " Andy has to back up

that statement? If we are going to be objective, lets be so on both

sides. And please dont get me wrong. I admire Andy and the work he

has done..and I do truly believe that his work has helped many

children on the spectrum.. so I am not running Andy down at all. If

anything most people here respect his opinion, but at the same time

have questions regarding the " new and improved! " . I personally would

like all the pros and cons for such products, and if Andy can

provide, outside of " harmless dirt " , then please do so.

There are some parents who are claiming to be getting words after a

few weeks on NCD...compared to a few words after several

(hundrendish?) rounds. Objective? it's either true or not. But the

one thing that holds true is that there will be those who try to

peddle into this " market " with some 'new and improved!' I say stick

to what you know works..and Andy's protocol works. I also say to keep

an open mind, and a tight pocketbook, to all the 'new and improved'.

Someone is going to replace the BetaMax with a DVD one of these

days

Reese

=======================================================

[Guest guest]

Trying something out that has no validation can be dangerous. Trying things

out just for the sake of trying it is exactly what MLM's want people to do.

As for my comment that it is " volcanic ash " this is what THEY say it is.

" Volcanic Mineral Defends the Health of Your Cells

One hundred million years ago, volcanoes rose from the sea, dividing

continents, creating mountains and forming much of the land as we know it.

As these volcanoes erupted, molten lava and thick ash poured into the sea.

The combination of thick ash and the salt from the sea caused a chemical

reaction, and over thousands of years, precious minerals like zeolites began

to form in the hardened lava. "

http://www.naturalcellulardefenseinfo.com/naturalstore/product.php?productid

=16133 & cat=0 & page=1

I didn't say anything that wasn't true. And btw I rarely comment on Andy's

protocol so your previous post was a bit puzzling. I consider Andy Cutler a

friend, but I don't often post much about him or his protocol except

recently when comparing it to NCD.

Mark Schauss

www.markschauss.com

RE: [ ] Re: Andy: Any opinion on Natural Cellular

Defense (NCD)?

Mark,

I see your point.

However -- How would a person find out if something works until they try

it? So far the AC protocal has been OK for my son (knock wood). I doubt I

would try the NCD stuff -- for now at least.

There are so many mainstream doctors who blast chelation. So many who say

that autism is not treatable. So many at my son's school who keep telling

me that autism is not treatable and implying I'm wasting my time. What if

we listened to them and did not give the AC protocal a chance? People have

made statements like " volcanic ash " with regards to the AC protocal. I've

heard of things like " dangerous " and so on.

I think all your questions are valid (safe, beneficial etc). Sounds like

there is no proof to state that NCD is effective but sounds like NCD is more

than " volcanic ash " . Do you think its dangerous to say things like that?

Someone may not consider trying something that may help their kid. Maybe

I'm making too much out of this -- whatever.

Mark Schauss <schauss@...> wrote:

Reese they haven't proven that it removes high levels of metals. What

their

miner study showed is that adult males who were exposed to high levels of

heavy metals excreted more with NCD than with placebo. Placebo controlled

studies of this kind need to be measured against a third item which shows

some efficacy in removing heavy metals otherwise the study itself while

suggestive, is by no means any proof.

As for Andy's statement, I won't be his spokesman but I can't disagree

personally unless more data comes out. What is zeolite but volcanic ash?

The burden of proof is on the side of NCD not Andy.

Bottom line is, I have seen countless products touted as helping people,

especially autistic children that didn't pan out. We are all right to be

skeptical. This is not betamax versus dvd's. Claims have been made (outside

this group as well as inside) that are real reaches. I have had calls from

Waiora distributors who have made some of the most outrageous claims

imaginable many of whom the company would certainly disavow. Still, I have

not judged the product, I have questioned the claims. Many more children

have benefited from chelation therapy using Andy's protocol than have had

any success from NCD. Until evidence comes to the surface that says

otherwise, I reserve the right to question the claims that NCD is

beneficial, safe and more effective than proper use of proven chelation

methods.

Mark Schauss

BTW, check out this blog about autism from Pat Sullivan

www.patsullivan.com

Mark,

So they have proven it removes high levels of metals. Thats a start.

>From bone and tissue? I am not certain about any of that. As far as

the autism and it's effects, etc. - It is a relatively new

product..that I for one feel they never intended quite the response

from the AS community (there are tests underway now.. many people are

awaiting the results.) Right now all we have is word-of-mouth which

definitely must be looked at with scrutiny.

Now, the question I asked was " if it were found to be more safe, more

effective, etc.. " . I asked a question..didnt make a statement. On the

other hand, Andy did make a statement calling it " harmless dirt " .

Arent you curious to what " studies and proof " Andy has to back up

that statement? If we are going to be objective, lets be so on both

sides. And please dont get me wrong. I admire Andy and the work he

has done..and I do truly believe that his work has helped many

children on the spectrum.. so I am not running Andy down at all. If

anything most people here respect his opinion, but at the same time

have questions regarding the " new and improved! " . I personally would

like all the pros and cons for such products, and if Andy can

provide, outside of " harmless dirt " , then please do so.

There are some parents who are claiming to be getting words after a

few weeks on NCD...compared to a few words after several

(hundrendish?) rounds. Objective? it's either true or not. But the

one thing that holds true is that there will be those who try to

peddle into this " market " with some 'new and improved!' I say stick

to what you know works..and Andy's protocol works. I also say to keep

an open mind, and a tight pocketbook, to all the 'new and improved'.

Someone is going to replace the BetaMax with a DVD one of these

days

Reese

=======================================================

[Guest guest]

that's where the volcanic ash thing came from -- so it really is volcanic ash --

lol!

Mark Schauss <schauss@...> wrote:

Trying something out that has no validation can be dangerous. Trying things

out just for the sake of trying it is exactly what MLM's want people to do.

As for my comment that it is " volcanic ash " this is what THEY say it is.

" Volcanic Mineral Defends the Health of Your Cells

One hundred million years ago, volcanoes rose from the sea, dividing

continents, creating mountains and forming much of the land as we know it.

As these volcanoes erupted, molten lava and thick ash poured into the sea.

The combination of thick ash and the salt from the sea caused a chemical

reaction, and over thousands of years, precious minerals like zeolites began

to form in the hardened lava. "

http://www.naturalcellulardefenseinfo.com/naturalstore/product.php?productid

=16133 & cat=0 & page=1

I didn't say anything that wasn't true. And btw I rarely comment on Andy's

protocol so your previous post was a bit puzzling. I consider Andy Cutler a

friend, but I don't often post much about him or his protocol except

recently when comparing it to NCD.

Mark Schauss

www.markschauss.com

RE: [ ] Re: Andy: Any opinion on Natural Cellular

Defense (NCD)?

Mark,

I see your point.

However -- How would a person find out if something works until they try

it? So far the AC protocal has been OK for my son (knock wood). I doubt I

would try the NCD stuff -- for now at least.

There are so many mainstream doctors who blast chelation. So many who say

that autism is not treatable. So many at my son's school who keep telling

me that autism is not treatable and implying I'm wasting my time. What if

we listened to them and did not give the AC protocal a chance? People have

made statements like " volcanic ash " with regards to the AC protocal. I've

heard of things like " dangerous " and so on.

I think all your questions are valid (safe, beneficial etc). Sounds like

there is no proof to state that NCD is effective but sounds like NCD is more

than " volcanic ash " . Do you think its dangerous to say things like that?

Someone may not consider trying something that may help their kid. Maybe

I'm making too much out of this -- whatever.

Mark Schauss <schauss@...> wrote:

Reese they haven't proven that it removes high levels of metals. What

their

miner study showed is that adult males who were exposed to high levels of

heavy metals excreted more with NCD than with placebo. Placebo controlled

studies of this kind need to be measured against a third item which shows

some efficacy in removing heavy metals otherwise the study itself while

suggestive, is by no means any proof.

As for Andy's statement, I won't be his spokesman but I can't disagree

personally unless more data comes out. What is zeolite but volcanic ash?

The burden of proof is on the side of NCD not Andy.

Bottom line is, I have seen countless products touted as helping people,

especially autistic children that didn't pan out. We are all right to be

skeptical. This is not betamax versus dvd's. Claims have been made (outside

this group as well as inside) that are real reaches. I have had calls from

Waiora distributors who have made some of the most outrageous claims

imaginable many of whom the company would certainly disavow. Still, I have

not judged the product, I have questioned the claims. Many more children

have benefited from chelation therapy using Andy's protocol than have had

any success from NCD. Until evidence comes to the surface that says

otherwise, I reserve the right to question the claims that NCD is

beneficial, safe and more effective than proper use of proven chelation

methods.

Mark Schauss

BTW, check out this blog about autism from Pat Sullivan

www.patsullivan.com

Mark,

So they have proven it removes high levels of metals. Thats a start.

>From bone and tissue? I am not certain about any of that. As far as

the autism and it's effects, etc. - It is a relatively new

product..that I for one feel they never intended quite the response

from the AS community (there are tests underway now.. many people are

awaiting the results.) Right now all we have is word-of-mouth which

definitely must be looked at with scrutiny.

Now, the question I asked was " if it were found to be more safe, more

effective, etc.. " . I asked a question..didnt make a statement. On the

other hand, Andy did make a statement calling it " harmless dirt " .

Arent you curious to what " studies and proof " Andy has to back up

that statement? If we are going to be objective, lets be so on both

sides. And please dont get me wrong. I admire Andy and the work he

has done..and I do truly believe that his work has helped many

children on the spectrum.. so I am not running Andy down at all. If

anything most people here respect his opinion, but at the same time

have questions regarding the " new and improved! " . I personally would

like all the pros and cons for such products, and if Andy can

provide, outside of " harmless dirt " , then please do so.

There are some parents who are claiming to be getting words after a

few weeks on NCD...compared to a few words after several

(hundrendish?) rounds. Objective? it's either true or not. But the

one thing that holds true is that there will be those who try to

peddle into this " market " with some 'new and improved!' I say stick

to what you know works..and Andy's protocol works. I also say to keep

an open mind, and a tight pocketbook, to all the 'new and improved'.

Someone is going to replace the BetaMax with a DVD one of these

days

Reese

=======================================================

[Guest guest]

that's where the volcanic ash thing came from -- so it really is volcanic ash --

lol!

Mark Schauss <schauss@...> wrote:

Trying something out that has no validation can be dangerous. Trying things

out just for the sake of trying it is exactly what MLM's want people to do.

As for my comment that it is " volcanic ash " this is what THEY say it is.

" Volcanic Mineral Defends the Health of Your Cells

One hundred million years ago, volcanoes rose from the sea, dividing

continents, creating mountains and forming much of the land as we know it.

As these volcanoes erupted, molten lava and thick ash poured into the sea.

The combination of thick ash and the salt from the sea caused a chemical

reaction, and over thousands of years, precious minerals like zeolites began

to form in the hardened lava. "

http://www.naturalcellulardefenseinfo.com/naturalstore/product.php?productid

=16133 & cat=0 & page=1

I didn't say anything that wasn't true. And btw I rarely comment on Andy's

protocol so your previous post was a bit puzzling. I consider Andy Cutler a

friend, but I don't often post much about him or his protocol except

recently when comparing it to NCD.

Mark Schauss

www.markschauss.com

RE: [ ] Re: Andy: Any opinion on Natural Cellular

Defense (NCD)?

Mark,

I see your point.

However -- How would a person find out if something works until they try

it? So far the AC protocal has been OK for my son (knock wood). I doubt I

would try the NCD stuff -- for now at least.

There are so many mainstream doctors who blast chelation. So many who say

that autism is not treatable. So many at my son's school who keep telling

me that autism is not treatable and implying I'm wasting my time. What if

we listened to them and did not give the AC protocal a chance? People have

made statements like " volcanic ash " with regards to the AC protocal. I've

heard of things like " dangerous " and so on.

I think all your questions are valid (safe, beneficial etc). Sounds like

there is no proof to state that NCD is effective but sounds like NCD is more

than " volcanic ash " . Do you think its dangerous to say things like that?

Someone may not consider trying something that may help their kid. Maybe

I'm making too much out of this -- whatever.

Mark Schauss <schauss@...> wrote:

Reese they haven't proven that it removes high levels of metals. What

their

miner study showed is that adult males who were exposed to high levels of

heavy metals excreted more with NCD than with placebo. Placebo controlled

studies of this kind need to be measured against a third item which shows

some efficacy in removing heavy metals otherwise the study itself while

suggestive, is by no means any proof.

As for Andy's statement, I won't be his spokesman but I can't disagree

personally unless more data comes out. What is zeolite but volcanic ash?

The burden of proof is on the side of NCD not Andy.

Bottom line is, I have seen countless products touted as helping people,

especially autistic children that didn't pan out. We are all right to be

skeptical. This is not betamax versus dvd's. Claims have been made (outside

this group as well as inside) that are real reaches. I have had calls from

Waiora distributors who have made some of the most outrageous claims

imaginable many of whom the company would certainly disavow. Still, I have

not judged the product, I have questioned the claims. Many more children

have benefited from chelation therapy using Andy's protocol than have had

any success from NCD. Until evidence comes to the surface that says

otherwise, I reserve the right to question the claims that NCD is

beneficial, safe and more effective than proper use of proven chelation

methods.

Mark Schauss

BTW, check out this blog about autism from Pat Sullivan

www.patsullivan.com

Mark,

So they have proven it removes high levels of metals. Thats a start.

>From bone and tissue? I am not certain about any of that. As far as

the autism and it's effects, etc. - It is a relatively new

product..that I for one feel they never intended quite the response

from the AS community (there are tests underway now.. many people are

awaiting the results.) Right now all we have is word-of-mouth which

definitely must be looked at with scrutiny.

Now, the question I asked was " if it were found to be more safe, more

effective, etc.. " . I asked a question..didnt make a statement. On the

other hand, Andy did make a statement calling it " harmless dirt " .

Arent you curious to what " studies and proof " Andy has to back up

that statement? If we are going to be objective, lets be so on both

sides. And please dont get me wrong. I admire Andy and the work he

has done..and I do truly believe that his work has helped many

children on the spectrum.. so I am not running Andy down at all. If

anything most people here respect his opinion, but at the same time

have questions regarding the " new and improved! " . I personally would

like all the pros and cons for such products, and if Andy can

provide, outside of " harmless dirt " , then please do so.

There are some parents who are claiming to be getting words after a

few weeks on NCD...compared to a few words after several

(hundrendish?) rounds. Objective? it's either true or not. But the

one thing that holds true is that there will be those who try to

peddle into this " market " with some 'new and improved!' I say stick

to what you know works..and Andy's protocol works. I also say to keep

an open mind, and a tight pocketbook, to all the 'new and improved'.

Someone is going to replace the BetaMax with a DVD one of these

days

Reese

=======================================================

[Guest guest]

Maybe dangerous in the way of wasting time, on unproven substances that delay

what is really helpful....chelation.

It's too bad if the product is good, for all the sleazy MLM salespeople have

ruined it, have to admit I turn a blind eye to most things sold this way. Also,

have been around long enough to know that if Andy doesn't see merit in it, IMHO,

it most likely does not have merit.

[ ] Re: Andy: Any opinion on Natural Cellular Defense

(NCD)?

>

> Trying something out that has no validation can be dangerous.

But..but ...Andy said it was " harmless " ??!!

heheh *jib*

=======================================================

[Guest guest]

,

I think that you hit the nail on the head. Time is a critical issue. The

longer the damage is allowed to occur and remain, the harder it is to get

full recovery.

In defense of NCD, it is a trace mineral supplement and that is a good thing

in today's mineral depleted world. Foods today are severely lacking in

trace minerals. What I find bad is the price. It is way too high for what

you get. But this is the problem with MLM systems. The price has to be

high at the retail level to pay for all of the down line distributors. I can

pretty much bet that the cost to produce one bottle is less than $1.00 US.

Why do I say that? The price of technical grade zeolite, from the 2004-2005

Spectrum Chemical catalog is $114.15 for 12 kilograms. Now obviously, this

is not the same stuff but fairly close and there is processing to be done

and labels and research but if you quadruple the price and you see what they

sell the stuff for, you understand why I view it as more of a money-making

project than a legitimate life saver.

Just my opinion.

Mark Schauss

Re: [ ] Re: Andy: Any opinion on Natural Cellular

Defense (NCD)?

Maybe dangerous in the way of wasting time, on unproven substances that

delay what is really helpful....chelation.

It's too bad if the product is good, for all the sleazy MLM salespeople have

ruined it, have to admit I turn a blind eye to most things sold this way.

Also, have been around long enough to know that if Andy doesn't see merit in

it, IMHO, it most likely does not have merit.

[ ] Re: Andy: Any opinion on Natural Cellular

Defense (NCD)?

>

> Trying something out that has no validation can be dangerous.

But..but ...Andy said it was " harmless " ??!!

heheh *jib*

=======================================================

[Guest guest]

Alright I am going to confess...I have tried it!! But...I want to clarify why I

decided to try it.

First, Andy says it is harmless. If that hadn't been said I wouldn't have. I

am not into experimenting on my child. God knows the medical community did

enough of that.

Second, I thought it might be interesting to use in conjunction with what we

are already doing. I don't for a second think it will totally chelate anyone.

What I was hoping it might do is provide a way to limit redistribution after

rounds and maybe help get a little more out between rounds. My son is 6 years

and 5 months old. I understand this is a marathon and not a sprint. But, if

this removes just a little more without hurting him that is just that many more

molecules of metal not in him. That is my reasoning for adding it.

I want to use it myself to try and reduce my burden until I can get my last

amalgam out and chelate with DMSA/ALA. I am so sick and tired of dealing with

these symptoms if this stuff helps just a little I am okay with that.

I haven't used much of it but did notice that redistribution after a round was

noticeably better. I also noticed after eating a meal that was heavy in

cilantro I was fuzzy headed and almost disoriented. I took a few drops and was

soon feeling much better. I know cilantro can chelate unpredictably so I don't

give it to my ASD son but I love the stuff and sometimes cave.

I just wanted to share my thoughts since I think I am somewhere inbetween the

yes and no people. A different perspective anyway. Comments??

Thanks,

=======================================================

[Guest guest]

We have tried NCD....5 weeks now and we have seen more gains then with

anything else we have tried. I have done the GFCF, AC protocol wit TD-DMPS

and this NCD has really made an impression.

Calmness...less agitated, more tolerant to frustration, no tantrums.

More focused and more compliant.

Realizes he has a father, Daddy no longer has to chase him to get him to

interact & play with him and doesn't have to hold onto him to keep him.

Spends more time interacting with us, less aloof. (Home & school)

Points !!

More appropriate play.

More decision making & making his needs know.

My non verbal son now says 10-20 new words a day (spontaneously repeated or

prompted)and then continues to use a percentage of them appropriately at

other times.

I'm sure I'm missing something as the gains have been tremendous.

I like this dirt !!!! It's AWESOME !!!

Lillian

fldofdrms@...

fjennings@...

[ ] Re: Andy: Any opinion on Natural Cellular Defense

(NCD)?

>

>>

>> In a message dated 24/05/2006 22:05:49 GMT Daylight Time, phaselow@...

>> writes:

>>

>> Check through the archives for prior discussions on NCD. I feel I

> can

>> safely say that Andy will tell you NCD is not worth your time (he'd

>> put it more colorfully).

>>

>>

>>

>> >>>Andy said it was expensive dirt!

>>

>> We are using it and seeing good gains, we even had a word - will

> update later

>>

>> Mandi in UK

>>

>>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> =======================================================

>

[Guest guest]

Well, if it is a supplement, and it did this, it is a good supplement, but it is

JUST a supplement. We have given certain supplements early on and have had huge

gains, just like reported, for example, Nordic Naturals Cod Liver Oil increased

our girls language 4 fold and we saw a lot of social gains in addition to fixing

her reversing pronoun problem, forever. Improvement for sure, but doesn't mean

it was getting any metals out.

Then, if it is a supplement, it is pretty pricey, but priceless, if your child

benefits from it, I guess. I know companies are in business to make money, but I

think it is the abhorrant practice to mark up a product 100-1000 percent to sell

to parents whose dream is their child get better. And it is highly unethical to

confound research and make people think that a supplement is going to chelate

anything, even I know enough chemistry to know better.

I am so grateful this list has people like Andy and Mark who understand the

chemical basis of products, otherwise I and most others who don't comprehend

chemistry would undoubtedly fall prey to these " people " .

[ ] Re: Andy: Any opinion on Natural Cellular Defense

(NCD)?

>

>>

>> In a message dated 24/05/2006 22:05:49 GMT Daylight Time, phaselow@...

>> writes:

>>

>> Check through the archives for prior discussions on NCD. I feel I

> can

>> safely say that Andy will tell you NCD is not worth your time (he'd

>> put it more colorfully).

>>

>>

>>

>> >>>Andy said it was expensive dirt!

>>

>> We are using it and seeing good gains, we even had a word - will

> update later

>>

>> Mandi in UK

>>

>>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> =======================================================

>

[Guest guest]

You're right. I missed that it doesn’t cross the BBB. Thanks for pointing

that out. Learn something everyday.

[ ] Re: Andy: Any opinion on Natural Cellular Defense

(NCD)?

When I did a search on this stuff I never found anything that says

it crossess the BBB and removes metals from the brain. Isn't that

what we want?? Maybe it does I just didn't find it.

I think... in a year or two this will end up like the PCA-Rx and

other chelating alternatives. It will for some but not for most.

> >>

> >> In a message dated 24/05/2006 22:05:49 GMT Daylight Time,

phaselow@

> >> writes:

> >>

> >> Check through the archives for prior discussions on NCD. I

feel I

> > can

> >> safely say that Andy will tell you NCD is not worth your time

(he'd

> >> put it more colorfully).

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >> >>>Andy said it was expensive dirt!

> >>

> >> We are using it and seeing good gains, we even had a word -

will

> > update later

> >>

> >> Mandi in UK

> >>

> >>

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > =======================================================

> >

[Guest guest]

Does NCD even meet the correct chemical properties of being classified as a

chelator? Specifically does it possess two thiol groups like dmsa or dmps or

ala?

[ ] Re: Andy: Any opinion on Natural Cellular Defense

(NCD)?

>

> You're right. I missed that it doesn't cross the BBB. Thanks for

pointing

> that out. Learn something everyday.

Isnt that why AC recommends ALA? It isnt determined yet if NCD crosses

the BBB..that I know of. I havnt read where it does or doesnt.

Reese

=======================================================

[Guest guest]

" As these volcanoes erupted, molten lava and thick ash " from the NCD

website. That is what its made of.

[ ] Re: Andy: Any opinion on Natural Cellular Defense

(NCD)?

I guess one could also call diamonds, coal. The point is, even the

quote by make never calls NCD " volcanic ash " , rather it reports on

the location and mechanism that creates a wide variety of minerals.

These types of discussions tend to could the issue not clarify it.

Operating in the relm of " gross generalizations " is neither

productive nor really meaningful. Heck one can say zeolites cause

cancer and are harmful. Are they accurate? Sure, asbestos is a type

of " zeolite " . Just like one can say bacteria are deadly!! Does this

mean we want to kill all bacteria in the body? Absolutley not, they

are vital to our health.

The key is, one needs to keep the focus on the important questions.

A question such as safety is an important question. To the fda, the

type of zeolite we are using is safe. For them to classify them

as " food additive " , they had to be convinced with studies.

The question of metal excretion is an important question. Does it

cause excretion in those with ASD? We are looking at that

specifically in the upcoming study. Does clinoptilolite (the type of

zeolite that is NCD) extract heavy metals? Animal studies shows that

it does indeed remove mercury, lead and arsenic. Other studies in

the publishing pipeline show that NCD does increase heavy metal

excretion significantly.

Will NCD turn out to be like secretion, a product that had certain

anecdotal success that was difficult to replicate in studies? I

guess only time will tell.

We each take the path that makes most sense to us personally. For

me, it has been a path to provide the energy necessary to bring

useful clinical studies to these important questions regarding NCD.

---------

Sidebar: a TV program that may be of interest:

http://rescuechronicle.blogspot.com/

Dateline NBC: Sunday, June 4th

By Generation Rescue

Barring the unforseen, Dateline NBC will air a story on biomedical

intervention and autism. The story will focus on a double-blind

study being run in Arizona by Dr. Jim using Oral DMSA.

We don't know what conclusions the report will draw, and we don't

know how it will be perceived in the biomedical community. We do

know that the producer feels the report was very fair, and that NBC

has gotten plenty of flack from the AAP and others saying

it's " irresponsible " to give this topic air time. Therefore, we're

hopeful.

We also know that NBC received videotape from dozens of parents,

showing their children before and after biomedical treatment. We

hope this " montage of hope " will figure prominently in their report.

Stay tuned!

> Reese they haven't proven that it removes high levels of metals.

What

> their

> miner study showed is that adult males who were exposed to high

levels of

> heavy metals excreted more with NCD than with placebo. Placebo

controlled

> studies of this kind need to be measured against a third item

which shows

> some efficacy in removing heavy metals otherwise the study itself

while

> suggestive, is by no means any proof.

>

> As for Andy's statement, I won't be his spokesman but I can't

disagree

> personally unless more data comes out. What is zeolite but

volcanic ash?

> The burden of proof is on the side of NCD not Andy.

>

> Bottom line is, I have seen countless products touted as helping

people,

> especially autistic children that didn't pan out. We are all right

to be

> skeptical. This is not betamax versus dvd's. Claims have been

made (outside

> this group as well as inside) that are real reaches. I have had

calls from

> Waiora distributors who have made some of the most outrageous

claims

> imaginable many of whom the company would certainly disavow.

Still, I have

> not judged the product, I have questioned the claims. Many more

children

> have benefited from chelation therapy using Andy's protocol than

have had

> any success from NCD. Until evidence comes to the surface that says

> otherwise, I reserve the right to question the claims that NCD is

> beneficial, safe and more effective than proper use of proven

chelation

> methods.

>

> Mark Schauss

>

> BTW, check out this blog about autism from Pat Sullivan

>

> www.patsullivan.com

>

>

>

> Mark,

>

> So they have proven it removes high levels of metals. Thats a

start.

> >From bone and tissue? I am not certain about any of that. As far

as

> the autism and it's effects, etc. - It is a relatively new

> product..that I for one feel they never intended quite the

response

> from the AS community (there are tests underway now.. many people

are

> awaiting the results.) Right now all we have is word-of-mouth

which

> definitely must be looked at with scrutiny.

>

> Now, the question I asked was " if it were found to be more safe,

more

> effective, etc.. " . I asked a question..didnt make a statement. On

the

> other hand, Andy did make a statement calling it " harmless dirt " .

> Arent you curious to what " studies and proof " Andy has to back up

> that statement? If we are going to be objective, lets be so on

both

> sides. And please dont get me wrong. I admire Andy and the work he

> has done..and I do truly believe that his work has helped many

> children on the spectrum.. so I am not running Andy down at all.

If

> anything most people here respect his opinion, but at the same

time

> have questions regarding the " new and improved! " . I personally

would

> like all the pros and cons for such products, and if Andy can

> provide, outside of " harmless dirt " , then please do so.

>

> There are some parents who are claiming to be getting words after

a

> few weeks on NCD...compared to a few words after several

> (hundrendish?) rounds. Objective? it's either true or not. But the

> one thing that holds true is that there will be those who try to

> peddle into this " market " with some 'new and improved!' I say

stick

> to what you know works..and Andy's protocol works. I also say to

keep

> an open mind, and a tight pocketbook, to all the 'new and

improved'.

> Someone is going to replace the BetaMax with a DVD one of these

> days

>

> Reese

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> =======================================================

>

[Guest guest]

The product is safe and available now. So how does

one make a decision for their own family? Well...

--- Where are the studies? You talk about them, promise them, but they

aren't there. When they are, we can talk. Until then it is pure conjecture.

---

ly, where are the 100s of people who have used NCD for weeks or months

and seen no results?

--- Because they'd be embarrassed to say it didn't work? Most people who buy

products they are unhappy with don't say anything. This is one of the oldest

marketing laws around. ---

Why are they not speaking up? This list environment would be

far more supportive of those voices than to the voices who are getting

results, yet, so far, we are not hearing from them. Why do we only hear

disbelief from those with no experience? My guess is some may (or must)

exist but it seems not many when compared to those who are very glad

they " risked " spending a little money to see if there is a benefit for

their child.

--- It also isn't a little bit of money. The product is expensive. ---

respectfully,

Forrist

> >

> > Trying something out that has no validation can be dangerous.

>

> But..but ...Andy said it was " harmless " ??!!

>

> heheh *jib*

>

>

>

>

>

>

> =======================================================

>

[Guest guest]

I don't know what it pulls & where it pulls it from. But after 1 yr of other

chelators & assorted biomeds, supps, diets, therapies we are finally seeing

GREAT gains with 5 weeks of NCD. If it stops working tomorrow. Having my son

in a way he's never been before for these few weeks has been AWESOME.

You know everyone is different and what works for some might not work for

others so what does the data say anyway about my child..nothing...its about

other people & how they reacted.

Even if it pulls NOTHING...I'm seeing gains and results...whatever it

doing...doesn't really matter.

And the price...nothing compared to what I have been paying for other

supplements..I'd pay double if I had to...silly me...I don't even know what

MLM is and I didn't purchase from a website or distributor...I found it on

eBay in a search for detox..I was looking for ionic foot baths and look what

I found...something that's turning my Pinocchio into a real boy.

Yes I've named my bottles of NCD..the first is Gepetto...the other three are

Faith , Hope & Love.

(Maybe its not the NCD at all...maybe its our courage & will to survive and

succeed where we have failed before.)

Lillian

fldofdrms@...

fjennings@...

[ ] Re: Andy: Any opinion on Natural Cellular Defense

(NCD)?

>

> Actually according to the studies provided by the company selling

it, it is

> hypothetical. Their studies have proven nothing except that it helps

> excretion when someone is exposed to high levels of heavy metals

but it has

> not shown to date anyway, that it removes metals that are in tissue

or bone.

> Until they show it, it is hypothetical. Also, they haven't shown us

anything

> relating to autism and its effects or lack of side-effects. NCD has

not been

> shown to be better, safer, or more efficient. If it has, forward

the studies

> and proof.

>

> Mark Schauss

> www.markschauss.com

Mark,

So they have proven it removes high levels of metals. Thats a start.

From bone and tissue? I am not certain about any of that. As far as

the autism and it's effects, etc. - It is a relatively new

product..that I for one feel they never intended quite the response

from the AS community (there are tests underway now.. many people are

awaiting the results.) Right now all we have is word-of-mouth which

definitely must be looked at with scrutiny.

Now, the question I asked was " if it were found to be more safe, more

effective, etc.. " . I asked a question..didnt make a statement. On the

other hand, Andy did make a statement calling it " harmless dirt " .

Arent you curious to what " studies and proof " Andy has to back up

that statement? If we are going to be objective, lets be so on both

sides. And please dont get me wrong. I admire Andy and the work he

has done..and I do truly believe that his work has helped many

children on the spectrum.. so I am not running Andy down at all. If

anything most people here respect his opinion, but at the same time

have questions regarding the " new and improved! " . I personally would

like all the pros and cons for such products, and if Andy can

provide, outside of " harmless dirt " , then please do so.

There are some parents who are claiming to be getting words after a

few weeks on NCD...compared to a few words after several

(hundrendish?) rounds. Objective? it's either true or not. But the

one thing that holds true is that there will be those who try to

peddle into this " market " with some 'new and improved!' I say stick

to what you know works..and Andy's protocol works. I also say to keep

an open mind, and a tight pocketbook, to all the 'new and improved'.

Someone is going to replace the BetaMax with a DVD one of these

days

Reese

=======================================================

[Guest guest]

In light of this post, I would be interested if some honest, objective person

who's child is having improvement on NCD, would try purchasing this relatively

inexpensive zeolite and see if there is anything to this.

[ ] Re: Andy: Any opinion on Natural Cellular

Defense (NCD)?

>

> Trying something out that has no validation can be dangerous.

But..but ...Andy said it was " harmless " ??!!

heheh *jib*

=======================================================

[Guest guest]

I would try a less expensive zeolite if it really is the same thing just without

all the MLM markup. If someone knows of a less expensive version please let me

know. I would have to try it out on myself first and it would really have to be

something tested safe for consumption, not going to eat ash from some volcano!!

I would be willing to give an honest objective opinion about it. I have

nothing to lose by telling the truth nomatter what it should be.

Cochran <Ladyshrink111@...> wrote:

In light of this post, I would be interested if some honest, objective person

who's child is having improvement on NCD, would try purchasing this relatively

inexpensive zeolite and see if there is anything to this.

[ ] Re: Andy: Any opinion on Natural Cellular

Defense (NCD)?

>

> Trying something out that has no validation can be dangerous.

But..but ...Andy said it was " harmless " ??!!

heheh *jib*

=======================================================

[Guest guest]

Makes sense, for me to try it there would have to be some good safety data

available. I remember others saying there is a fine line between okay to ingest

zeolite and harmful ones. It would be interesting to know if anyone else is

making such a product. I do know we didn't have any negative side effects from

using the NCD that I could tell. Still it will only be used to supplement what

we are doing. I can't dismiss everything Andy has said and done, not a chance

of that happening.

rheaton_stormcast <rheaton_stormcast@...> wrote:

I wouldnt recommend taking 'any ol zeolite'. The patented process of

NCD is what makes it safe and effective. " Raw zeolite " , if you will,

is not safe. There is a considerable process involved in the

development and production of NCD. There have been other zeolite

products out there, but without the micronized refining patented

process, as such with NCD, user beware. Zeolite naturally has several

minerals in it that are not health friendly. The process by which

they refine NCD strips away any unhealthy elements leaving only a

structure that is " pure " , safe and effective.

Reese

> >

> > Trying something out that has no validation can be dangerous.

>

> But..but ...Andy said it was " harmless " ??!!

>

> heheh *jib*

>

>

>

>

>

>

> =======================================================

>