Petition Against Aversive Therapies

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NATIONAL AUTISM ASSOCIATION SPEAKS OUT AGAINST " AVERSIVE THERAPIES " USED ON

CHILDREN

" THERE HAS TO BE A BETTER WAY, " SAYS NONPROFIT GROUP

Nixa, MO - In a TimesUnion.com article published last week entitled " Should

pain be a part of learning? " writer Rick Carlin touched on a highly

controversial collection of aversive therapy methods used on children with

neurological disorders such as autism.

Carlin described such methods as " hitting, slapping, pinching, kicking,

hurling, using painful or intrusive sprays or inhalants, and withholding

sleep, shelter, bedding or bathroom facilities, " and cited facilities such

as the Rotenberg Residential Center as utilizing these methods on troubled

patients. Also mentioned was electrical shock therapy.

" We can't allow this to continue, " says Fournier, President of the

National Autism Association. " There has to be a better way of addressing

behaviors associated with severe autism and related disorders. "

The national group says regulations need to be in place to prevent aversive

therapies. " We're interested in talking to facilities such as the Rotenberg

Center, and are willing to help in any way we can to replace these cruel

therapies with something less aversive, " says NAA Executive Director Rita

Shreffler. " These children simply cannot be subjected to these methods, and

finding a better way should be the priority of these types of treatment

centers. "

The article noted new legislation, sponsored by Senator Marty Golden (R-NY),

which would ban aversive therapies. " The National Autism Association

supports this legislation, " says Fournier. " we're more than willing to help

any political figure ban these inhumane practices. "

To view the article, visit

http://timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyID=482318

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& category=CAPITOL & BCCode=HOME & newsdate=5/16/2006.

Related articles:

http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2006/05/23/ny_debate

s_mass_schools_shock_use/

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..boston.com%2Fnews%2Flocal%2Fmassachusetts%2Farticles%2F2006%2F05%2F23%2Fny_

debates_mass_schools_shock_use%2F>

http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles/2006/05/22/a_question_of_tough_lov

e_vs_torture/

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..boston.com%2Fnews%2Flocal%2Farticles%2F2006%2F05%2F22%2Fa_question_of_tough

_love_vs_torture%2F>

To sign a petition supporting a ban of these methods, click here

http://www.PetitionOnline.com/NYs6876/petition.html

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For more information about autism, visit www.nationalautism.org

<http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?t=4gebyvbab.0.8wkoaebab.faomd6n6.1 & p=http%3A%2F%2Fwww

..nationalautism.org> .

-30-

Think Autism. Think Cure.

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nationalautismassociation.org%2F> Click here to visit our website

[Guest guest]

Okay, here I go, everyone do a collective attack...

I'm not saying this school is okay by any means. That said, a friend

has a child with a head-banging so bad he's broken his skull multiple

times. She's taken him to doctors, tried diets, supps, treatments,

drugs, etc. Would it not in this case where he's risking brain damage

or death, be better to use an adversive to help him stop than to allow

him to continue? Maurice discusses the use of adversives in

her book, how sometimes, in extreme cases, maybe it's a necessary

evil. I accept that there might be some treatment option not yet

tried, but if a mild shock stopped him from breaking his skull, I

think it should not be ignored as a possibility. Sorta like if a

spanking makes a two year-old stop next time she's about to run out

into traffic, maybe a spanking isn't so bad.

Okay, let me have it, lol.

Debi

[Guest guest]

Not gonna take the bait. Just wish is wasn't necessary. I'm a

believer that behavior is communicating something...no matter who

severe. So trying to find out what that is, be in needed sensory

input, allergies, migraines, etc. But in extreme cases I guess it

would be either medication or something like this.

But to be honest, I'd try every darn thing....quit my job, sit next

to our son 24/7 to try to figure it out. Our son used to head bang

for the sensory input and because he had headaches. Too care of

that, nothing. Same with biting, sensory input. Same with lots of

other this. We were so tired of hash marks.

Now we've got another problem, minimal compared to head butting, but

he pulls all tags off and pulls loose strings to the point of losing

sleeves and most buttongs. This even when I trim eveything up.

We've gone mostly tagless, and do a brushing protocol. Still trying

to figure it out.

Carolyn

>

> Okay, here I go, everyone do a collective attack...

>

> I'm not saying this school is okay by any means. That said, a

friend

> has a child with a head-banging so bad he's broken his skull

multiple

> times. She's taken him to doctors, tried diets, supps, treatments,

> drugs, etc. Would it not in this case where he's risking brain

damage

> or death, be better to use an adversive to help him stop than to

allow

> him to continue? Maurice discusses the use of adversives

in

> her book, how sometimes, in extreme cases, maybe it's a necessary

> evil. I accept that there might be some treatment option not yet

> tried, but if a mild shock stopped him from breaking his skull, I

> think it should not be ignored as a possibility. Sorta like if a

> spanking makes a two year-old stop next time she's about to run out

> into traffic, maybe a spanking isn't so bad.

>

> Okay, let me have it, lol.

>

> Debi

>

[Guest guest]

No loving parent would ever allow

a child to harm himself, or others. This is a given. Moving on, the issue rests

with our doctors and mainstream medicine

and therapies: what have these sciences

done to promote techniques to manage such behavior? It is to our doctors and

therapists, and then legislators, to mandate the most humane methods be devised

and discovered to prevent harm. If these methods are expensive, so be it. If

these methods are time-consuming, so be it.

There are not too many schools

more expensive than the one in question. Expense was not an issue in placing

them there; expense should not be an issue

in making development and discovery of humane

methods a priority.

A good friend and educator in the field

has stated this sentiment as well: do not blame the parent for placement, but

look for, and find , the better solutions.

We refuse to believe that

somehow, somewhere, perhaps yet to be researched and developed, there is not a

more humane way of treating

these children and adults than to shock

their bodies with current. Suzanne Messina REAACH

From: EOHarm [mailto:EOHarm ] On Behalf Of CG

Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2006 2:37

PM

EOHarm

Subject: Re: Petition

Against Aversive Therapies

Not gonna take the

bait. Just wish is wasn't necessary. I'm a

believer that behavior is communicating something...no matter who

severe. So trying to find out what that is, be in needed sensory

input, allergies, migraines, etc. But in extreme cases I guess it

would be either medication or something like this.

But to be honest, I'd try every darn thing....quit my job, sit next

to our son 24/7 to try to figure it out. Our son used to head bang

for the sensory input and because he had headaches. Too care of

that, nothing. Same with biting, sensory input. Same with lots of

other this. We were so tired of hash marks.

Now we've got another problem, minimal compared to head butting, but

he pulls all tags off and pulls loose strings to the point of losing

sleeves and most buttongs. This even when I trim eveything up.

We've gone mostly tagless, and do a brushing protocol. Still trying

to figure it out.

Carolyn

>

> Okay, here I go, everyone do a collective attack...

>

> I'm not saying this school is okay by any means. That said, a

friend

> has a child with a head-banging so bad he's broken his skull

multiple

> times. She's taken him to doctors, tried diets, supps, treatments,

> drugs, etc. Would it not in this case where he's risking brain

damage

> or death, be better to use an adversive to help him stop than to

allow

> him to continue? Maurice discusses the use of adversives

in

> her book, how sometimes, in extreme cases, maybe it's a necessary

> evil. I accept that there might be some treatment option not yet

> tried, but if a mild shock stopped him from breaking his skull, I

> think it should not be ignored as a possibility. Sorta like if a

> spanking makes a two year-old stop next time she's about to run out

> into traffic, maybe a spanking isn't so bad.

>

> Okay, let me have it, lol.

>

> Debi

>

[Guest guest]

Suzanne,

I think we should stage a protest at the Rotenberg Center. This treatment should be illegal. We need the lawmakers in Mass to put a stop to it. You up for a little party in Canton?

From: EOHarm [mailto:EOHarm ] On Behalf Of suzanne messinaSent: Wednesday, May 24, 2006 2:53 PMEOHarm Subject: RE: Re: Petition Against Aversive Therapies

No loving parent would ever allow a child to harm himself, or others. This is a given. Moving on, the issue rests with our doctors and mainstream medicine

and therapies: what have these sciences done to promote techniques to manage such behavior? It is to our doctors and therapists, and then legislators, to mandate the most humane methods be devised and discovered to prevent harm. If these methods are expensive, so be it. If these methods are time-consuming, so be it.

There are not too many schools more expensive than the one in question. Expense was not an issue in placing them there; expense should not be an issue

in making development and discovery of humane methods a priority.

A good friend and educator in the field has stated this sentiment as well: do not blame the parent for placement, but look for, and find , the better solutions.

We refuse to believe that somehow, somewhere, perhaps yet to be researched and developed, there is not a more humane way of treating

these children and adults than to shock their bodies with current. Suzanne Messina REAACH

From: EOHarm [mailto:EOHarm ] On Behalf Of CGSent: Wednesday, May 24, 2006 2:37 PMEOHarm Subject: Re: Petition Against Aversive Therapies

Not gonna take the bait. Just wish is wasn't necessary. I'm a believer that behavior is communicating something...no matter who severe. So trying to find out what that is, be in needed sensory input, allergies, migraines, etc. But in extreme cases I guess it would be either medication or something like this.But to be honest, I'd try every darn thing....quit my job, sit next to our son 24/7 to try to figure it out. Our son used to head bang for the sensory input and because he had headaches. Too care of that, nothing. Same with biting, sensory input. Same with lots of other this. We were so tired of hash marks. Now we've got another problem, minimal compared to head butting, but he pulls all tags off and pulls loose strings to the point of losing sleeves and most buttongs. This even when I trim eveything up. We've gone mostly tagless, and do a brushing protocol. Still trying to figure it out.Carolyn >> Okay, here I go, everyone do a collective attack...> > I'm not saying this school is okay by any means. That said, a friend> has a child with a head-banging so bad he's broken his skull multiple> times. She's taken him to doctors, tried diets, supps, treatments,> drugs, etc. Would it not in this case where he's risking brain damage> or death, be better to use an adversive to help him stop than to allow> him to continue? Maurice discusses the use of adversives in> her book, how sometimes, in extreme cases, maybe it's a necessary> evil. I accept that there might be some treatment option not yet> tried, but if a mild shock stopped him from breaking his skull, I> think it should not be ignored as a possibility. Sorta like if a> spanking makes a two year-old stop next time she's about to run out> into traffic, maybe a spanking isn't so bad.> > Okay, let me have it, lol.> > Debi>

[Guest guest]

Carolyn,

Have you ever tried Crainosacral therapy? My son used to constantly

stand on his head and ram his body into the furniture for input. We were in

EI at the time and started crainosacral and the behaviors increased for a

week or so and then really went down to minimal to no incidence.

Occasionally, he still wants the tags cut off or starts somersaults at

bedtime but much more manageable and we haven't done it in 3 years. I

definitely am going to revisit at some time because for the sensory piece,

craino was huge.

Also, a child who bangs his head like that has some underlying issue,

ie. dairy or gluten intolerance, inflammation, viral infection, etc.

Whatever it may be, these " shock " treatments would only mask the real reason

behind it. This of course is only my opinion and I'm not on any attack. I

happen to know what the inside of a mental facility looks like due to my

mother's illness and it's not a pretty sight what they do to these people.

Lot's of drugs, shock treatments and what not create a much bigger divorce

from reality. I will never forget what it was like as a child to witness

their absence from themselves. -

Re: Petition Against Aversive Therapies

Not gonna take the bait. Just wish is wasn't necessary. I'm a

believer that behavior is communicating something...no matter who

severe. So trying to find out what that is, be in needed sensory

input, allergies, migraines, etc. But in extreme cases I guess it

would be either medication or something like this.

But to be honest, I'd try every darn thing....quit my job, sit next

to our son 24/7 to try to figure it out. Our son used to head bang

for the sensory input and because he had headaches. Too care of

that, nothing. Same with biting, sensory input. Same with lots of

other this. We were so tired of hash marks.

Now we've got another problem, minimal compared to head butting, but

he pulls all tags off and pulls loose strings to the point of losing

sleeves and most buttongs. This even when I trim eveything up.

We've gone mostly tagless, and do a brushing protocol. Still trying

to figure it out.

Carolyn

-- In EOHarm , " Debi " <fightingautism@...> wrote:

>

> Okay, here I go, everyone do a collective attack...

>

> I'm not saying this school is okay by any means. That said, a

friend

> has a child with a head-banging so bad he's broken his skull

multiple

> times. She's taken him to doctors, tried diets, supps, treatments,

> drugs, etc. Would it not in this case where he's risking brain

damage

> or death, be better to use an adversive to help him stop than to

allow

> him to continue?

>

> Okay, let me have it, lol.

>

> Debi

>

[Guest guest]

Hi , We would not be the first;

there is a compelling history here; if you do a bit of googling, you will

be surprised at some events in the past. Yes, I think we should enlist

support of MA legislators. put that on the legislative agenda of REAACH

and NAA. We can work on this off line. It will take some work, as

did the Hg bill.and still the Hg bill is not finished. But we can always

take the first step Thanks so much

for your alert on this to the national members! As always, there is

strength in numbers, and power in the voice of parents. Talk soon,

Suzanne

From: EOHarm [mailto:EOHarm ] On Behalf Of Fournier

Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2006 4:13

PM

EOHarm

Subject: RE: Re: Petition

Against Aversive Therapies

Suzanne,

I think we should stage a protest at the

Rotenberg Center. This treatment should be

illegal. We need the lawmakers in Mass to put a stop to

it. You up for a little party in Canton?

From: EOHarm [mailto:EOHarm ] On Behalf Of suzanne messina

Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2006 2:53

PM

EOHarm

Subject: RE: Re: Petition

Against Aversive Therapies

No loving parent would ever allow a child to harm himself, or others.

This is a given. Moving on, the issue rests with our doctors and

mainstream medicine

and therapies: what have these

sciences done to promote techniques to manage such behavior? It is to our

doctors and therapists, and then legislators, to mandate the most humane

methods be devised and discovered to prevent harm. If these methods are

expensive, so be it. If these methods are time-consuming, so be it.

There are not too many schools more expensive than the one in question.

Expense was not an issue in placing them there; expense should not be an issue

in making development and discovery of

humane methods a priority.

A good friend and educator in the

field has stated this sentiment as well: do not blame the parent for

placement, but look for, and find , the better solutions.

We refuse to believe that somehow, somewhere, perhaps yet to be researched and

developed, there is not a more humane way of treating

these children and adults than to shock

their bodies with current. Suzanne

Messina REAACH

From: EOHarm [mailto:EOHarm ] On Behalf Of CG

Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2006 2:37

PM

EOHarm

Subject: Re: Petition

Against Aversive Therapies

Not gonna take the

bait. Just wish is wasn't necessary. I'm a

believer that behavior is communicating something...no matter who

severe. So trying to find out what that is, be in needed sensory

input, allergies, migraines, etc. But in extreme cases I guess it

would be either medication or something like this.

But to be honest, I'd try every darn thing....quit my job, sit next

to our son 24/7 to try to figure it out. Our son used to head bang

for the sensory input and because he had headaches. Too care of

that, nothing. Same with biting, sensory input. Same with lots of

other this. We were so tired of hash marks.

Now we've got another problem, minimal compared to head butting, but

he pulls all tags off and pulls loose strings to the point of losing

sleeves and most buttongs. This even when I trim eveything up.

We've gone mostly tagless, and do a brushing protocol. Still trying

to figure it out.

Carolyn

>

> Okay, here I go, everyone do a collective attack...

>

> I'm not saying this school is okay by any means. That said, a

friend

> has a child with a head-banging so bad he's broken his skull

multiple

> times. She's taken him to doctors, tried diets, supps, treatments,

> drugs, etc. Would it not in this case where he's risking brain

damage

> or death, be better to use an adversive to help him stop than to

allow

> him to continue? Maurice discusses the use of adversives

in

> her book, how sometimes, in extreme cases, maybe it's a necessary

> evil. I accept that there might be some treatment option not yet

> tried, but if a mild shock stopped him from breaking his skull, I

> think it should not be ignored as a possibility. Sorta like if a

> spanking makes a two year-old stop next time she's about to run out

> into traffic, maybe a spanking isn't so bad.

>

> Okay, let me have it, lol.

>

> Debi

>

[Guest guest]

I think a fuller discussion of the issues are in order before we rush

to limit the treatment choices of parents. Aversive therapy can be

effective in some circumstances and there is science to back it up.

One of the biggest problem with it is that I have seen far too often

so-called aversion is little more than dressed up punishment. Because

of this alone, it should never be a part of any educational or

government funded program.

Current medical treatments could also be described in the most

gruesome and repulsive of terms. Take surgery for example. Imagine

they take these sharp knives and they slice into human flesh causing

blood to flow. Then sometimes muscles and organs themselves are

stabbed with razor sharp instruments. Bones get sawed and drilled and

sometimes whole body parts are chopped out. Often times the patient is

left with dehabilitating pain and bruising that can last for months.

If a part of the human body is not functioning correctly, it is

because the body's systems are out of balance. No matter how

expensive or how hard or how long it takes, we must look for humane

ways of bringing the body back to health. Please support a law

banning aversive surgery.

Rather than an outright ban, perhaps aversive treatment can be better

regulated and restricted to minimize abuses. But maybe that is not

possible. For me, I would require more than a sentence or two of

shocking rhetoric before I could make a decision on the matter to sign

a petition. I would like to hear some stories from parents who use

and support such methods. I bet their situations are not as black and

white as one might conclude.

Lenny

[Guest guest]

I hope this doesn't start a vituperative sidebar.

BTW- I think we should go back to bleeding.

It's safer than thimerosal!

Re: Petition Against Aversive Therapies

You're kidding right?I really hope this is more of your famous sarcasm.Laurie>> I think a fuller discussion of the issues are in order before we rush> to limit the treatment choices of parents. Aversive therapy can be> effective in some circumstances and there is science to back it up. > One of the biggest problem with it is that I have seen far too often> so-called aversion is little more than dressed up punishment. Because> of this alone, it should never be a part of any educational or> government funded program. > > Current medical treatments could also be described in the most> gruesome and repulsive of terms. Take surgery for example. Imagine> they take these sharp knives and they slice into human flesh causing> blood to flow. Then sometimes muscles and organs themselves are> stabbed with razor sharp instruments. Bones get sawed and drilled and> sometimes whole body parts are chopped out. Often times the patient is> left with dehabilitating pain and bruising that can last for months. > If a part of the human body is not functioning correctly, it is> because the body's systems are out of balance. No matter how> expensive or how hard or how long it takes, we must look for humane> ways of bringing the body back to health. Please support a law> banning aversive surgery.> > Rather than an outright ban, perhaps aversive treatment can be better> regulated and restricted to minimize abuses. But maybe that is not> possible. For me, I would require more than a sentence or two of> shocking rhetoric before I could make a decision on the matter to sign> a petition. I would like to hear some stories from parents who use> and support such methods. I bet their situations are not as black and> white as one might conclude.> > Lenny>

[Guest guest]

There is no justification for torture, Lenny.

Have you read these news reports? They are hardly "shocking" rhetoric and your choice of words is extremely insensitive to the cruelty these children are being subjected to.

From: EOHarm [mailto:EOHarm ] On Behalf Of schaferatsprynetSent: Wednesday, May 24, 2006 5:27 PMEOHarm Subject: Re: Petition Against Aversive Therapies

I think a fuller discussion of the issues are in order before we rushto limit the treatment choices of parents. Aversive therapy can beeffective in some circumstances and there is science to back it up. One of the biggest problem with it is that I have seen far too oftenso-called aversion is little more than dressed up punishment. Becauseof this alone, it should never be a part of any educational orgovernment funded program. Current medical treatments could also be described in the mostgruesome and repulsive of terms. Take surgery for example. Imaginethey take these sharp knives and they slice into human flesh causingblood to flow. Then sometimes muscles and organs themselves arestabbed with razor sharp instruments. Bones get sawed and drilled andsometimes whole body parts are chopped out. Often times the patient isleft with dehabilitating pain and bruising that can last for months. If a part of the human body is not functioning correctly, it isbecause the body's systems are out of balance. No matter howexpensive or how hard or how long it takes, we must look for humaneways of bringing the body back to health. Please support a lawbanning aversive surgery.Rather than an outright ban, perhaps aversive treatment can be betterregulated and restricted to minimize abuses. But maybe that is notpossible. For me, I would require more than a sentence or two ofshocking rhetoric before I could make a decision on the matter to signa petition. I would like to hear some stories from parents who useand support such methods. I bet their situations are not as black andwhite as one might conclude.Lenny

[Guest guest]

This is torture, not even " aversive " the way Pavlov or Lovvas had used

for " teaching " ..We have come a long way baby..and this type of control

is completely unacceptable..it is ABUSE!

http://www.timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyID=485238 & category=OPINION & n\

ewsdate=5/24/2006

Schools' methods sound a lot like torture

First published: Wednesday, May 24, 2006

Imagine if the " aversive methods " described in your May 16 front-page

article " Should pain be a part of learning? " were used in our state

prisons or in Guantanamo? Reports of " hitting, slapping, pinching,

kicking, hurling, using painful or intrusive sprays or inhalants " and

" withholding sleep, shelter, bedding, or bathroom facilities " sound a

lot like " torture " to me.

As a member of a family deeply affected by autism, I am outraged that

some schools are actually considering, let alone employing, the use of

such methods. Thank you, Rick Karlin, for bringing this extremely

serious matter to our attention.

JEAN BRENNAN

East Greenbush

>

> There is no justification for torture, Lenny.

>

> Have you read these news reports? They are hardly " shocking "

rhetoric and

> your choice of words is extremely insensitive to the cruelty these

children

> are being subjected to.

>

>

>

> _____

>

> From: EOHarm [mailto:EOHarm ] On

Behalf Of

> schaferatsprynet

> Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2006 5:27 PM

> EOHarm

> Subject: Re: Petition Against Aversive Therapies

>

>

> I think a fuller discussion of the issues are in order before we rush

> to limit the treatment choices of parents. Aversive therapy can be

> effective in some circumstances and there is science to back it up.

> One of the biggest problem with it is that I have seen far too often

> so-called aversion is little more than dressed up punishment. Because

> of this alone, it should never be a part of any educational or

> government funded program.

>

> Current medical treatments could also be described in the most

> gruesome and repulsive of terms. Take surgery for example. Imagine

> they take these sharp knives and they slice into human flesh causing

> blood to flow. Then sometimes muscles and organs themselves are

> stabbed with razor sharp instruments. Bones get sawed and drilled and

> sometimes whole body parts are chopped out. Often times the patient is

> left with dehabilitating pain and bruising that can last for months.

> If a part of the human body is not functioning correctly, it is

> because the body's systems are out of balance. No matter how

> expensive or how hard or how long it takes, we must look for humane

> ways of bringing the body back to health. Please support a law

> banning aversive surgery.

>

> Rather than an outright ban, perhaps aversive treatment can be better

> regulated and restricted to minimize abuses. But maybe that is not

> possible. For me, I would require more than a sentence or two of

> shocking rhetoric before I could make a decision on the matter to sign

> a petition. I would like to hear some stories from parents who use

> and support such methods. I bet their situations are not as black and

> white as one might conclude.

>

> Lenny

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Lenny,

There is also science backing up thimerosal as a harmless substance--

just ask Marie McCormick or Offit.

Common sense and respect for human dignity are basic motivators in

how we treat others, but sadly, people can be persuaded to abandon

these instincts without realizing it, as history shows us.

Injecting mercury into babies and electrically shocking children

(for not keeping a " neat appearance " or for any other reason) are

both obviously wrong, but still these things are happening, and even

applauded by some.

As far as " shocking rhetoric " goes, the petition is taken from

information in the news accounts and the New York bill. Even the

most dispassionate account of what is happening to these kids is

shocking. It's likely that many of the kids subjected to this type

of treatment aren't able to speak. If they could speak, I wonder

what they'd have to say about such things as being shocked by

devices attached to their bodies, denied access to a restroom when

needed, and being intentionally deprived of sleep?

Many thanks to those who have signed on to the petition.

Rita

>

> I think a fuller discussion of the issues are in order before we

rush

> to limit the treatment choices of parents. Aversive therapy can be

> effective in some circumstances and there is science to back it

up.

> One of the biggest problem with it is that I have seen far too

often

> so-called aversion is little more than dressed up punishment.

Because

> of this alone, it should never be a part of any educational or

> government funded program.

>

> Current medical treatments could also be described in the most

> gruesome and repulsive of terms. Take surgery for example.

Imagine

> they take these sharp knives and they slice into human flesh

causing

> blood to flow. Then sometimes muscles and organs themselves are

> stabbed with razor sharp instruments. Bones get sawed and drilled

and

> sometimes whole body parts are chopped out. Often times the

patient is

> left with dehabilitating pain and bruising that can last for

months.

> If a part of the human body is not functioning correctly, it is

> because the body's systems are out of balance. No matter how

> expensive or how hard or how long it takes, we must look for humane

> ways of bringing the body back to health. Please support a law

> banning aversive surgery.

>

> Rather than an outright ban, perhaps aversive treatment can be

better

> regulated and restricted to minimize abuses. But maybe that is not

> possible. For me, I would require more than a sentence or two of

> shocking rhetoric before I could make a decision on the matter to

sign

> a petition. I would like to hear some stories from parents who use

> and support such methods. I bet their situations are not as black

and

> white as one might conclude.

>

> Lenny

>

[Guest guest]

I get the impression that if it weren't for mercury detoxification through the use of mercury chelators such as DMSA, DMPS, and ALA Offit might be right. Which is probably exactly the reason his veins on his neck start popping out and he wants chelation banned.

but he really cares for our children.

Re: Petition Against Aversive Therapies

Lenny,There is also science backing up thimerosal as a harmless substance--just ask Marie McCormick or Offit.Common sense and respect for human dignity are basic motivators in how we treat others, but sadly, people can be persuaded to abandon these instincts without realizing it, as history shows us. Injecting mercury into babies and electrically shocking children (for not keeping a "neat appearance" or for any other reason) are both obviously wrong, but still these things are happening, and even applauded by some. As far as "shocking rhetoric" goes, the petition is taken from information in the news accounts and the New York bill. Even the most dispassionate account of what is happening to these kids is shocking. It's likely that many of the kids subjected to this type of treatment aren't able to speak. If they could speak, I wonder what they'd have to say about such things as being shocked by devices attached to their bodies, denied access to a restroom when needed, and being intentionally deprived of sleep?Many thanks to those who have signed on to the petition.Rita>> I think a fuller discussion of the issues are in order before we rush> to limit the treatment choices of parents. Aversive therapy can be> effective in some circumstances and there is science to back it up. > One of the biggest problem with it is that I have seen far too often> so-called aversion is little more than dressed up punishment. Because> of this alone, it should never be a part of any educational or> government funded program. > > Current medical treatments could also be described in the most> gruesome and repulsive of terms. Take surgery for example. Imagine> they take these sharp knives and they slice into human flesh causing> blood to flow. Then sometimes muscles and organs themselves are> stabbed with razor sharp instruments. Bones get sawed and drilled and> sometimes whole body parts are chopped out. Often times the patient is> left with dehabilitating pain and bruising that can last for months. > If a part of the human body is not functioning correctly, it is> because the body's systems are out of balance. No matter how> expensive or how hard or how long it takes, we must look for humane> ways of bringing the body back to health. Please support a law> banning aversive surgery.> > Rather than an outright ban, perhaps aversive treatment can be better> regulated and restricted to minimize abuses. But maybe that is not> possible. For me, I would require more than a sentence or two of> shocking rhetoric before I could make a decision on the matter to sign> a petition. I would like to hear some stories from parents who use> and support such methods. I bet their situations are not as black and> white as one might conclude.> > Lenny>

[Guest guest]

Lenny,

You are a dear friend, but I really hope you're kidding on this one. This type

of treatment

is inexcusable. I know, even when behaviors were at their worst for my boys, I

found an

effective way without resorting to this type of degrading treatment. There is

always a non-

invasive way that will work for each child, it just takes a little more effort

to find it than

hurting them physically or emotionally. But, here again, you're probably just

pulling our

legs!

>

> I think a fuller discussion of the issues are in order before we rush

> to limit the treatment choices of parents. Aversive therapy can be

> effective in some circumstances and there is science to back it up.

> One of the biggest problem with it is that I have seen far too often

> so-called aversion is little more than dressed up punishment. Because

> of this alone, it should never be a part of any educational or

> government funded program.

>

> Current medical treatments could also be described in the most

> gruesome and repulsive of terms. Take surgery for example. Imagine

> they take these sharp knives and they slice into human flesh causing

> blood to flow. Then sometimes muscles and organs themselves are

> stabbed with razor sharp instruments. Bones get sawed and drilled and

> sometimes whole body parts are chopped out. Often times the patient is

> left with dehabilitating pain and bruising that can last for months.

> If a part of the human body is not functioning correctly, it is

> because the body's systems are out of balance. No matter how

> expensive or how hard or how long it takes, we must look for humane

> ways of bringing the body back to health. Please support a law

> banning aversive surgery.

>

> Rather than an outright ban, perhaps aversive treatment can be better

> regulated and restricted to minimize abuses. But maybe that is not

> possible. For me, I would require more than a sentence or two of

> shocking rhetoric before I could make a decision on the matter to sign

> a petition. I would like to hear some stories from parents who use

> and support such methods. I bet their situations are not as black and

> white as one might conclude.

>

> Lenny

>

[Guest guest]

,

I am quite serious. I have not read the news reports on this stuff

and I would like more information and discussion on the subject before

I decide to support banning legislation -- and I would like to know

how far the ban goes.

Lenny

> >

> > I think a fuller discussion of the issues are in order before we rush

> > to limit the treatment choices of parents. Aversive therapy can be

> > effective in some circumstances and there is science to back it up.

> > One of the biggest problem with it is that I have seen far too often

> > so-called aversion is little more than dressed up punishment. Because

> > of this alone, it should never be a part of any educational or

> > government funded program.

> >

> > Current medical treatments could also be described in the most

> > gruesome and repulsive of terms. Take surgery for example. Imagine

> > they take these sharp knives and they slice into human flesh causing

> > blood to flow. Then sometimes muscles and organs themselves are

> > stabbed with razor sharp instruments. Bones get sawed and drilled and

> > sometimes whole body parts are chopped out. Often times the patient is

> > left with dehabilitating pain and bruising that can last for months.

> > If a part of the human body is not functioning correctly, it is

> > because the body's systems are out of balance. No matter how

> > expensive or how hard or how long it takes, we must look for humane

> > ways of bringing the body back to health. Please support a law

> > banning aversive surgery.

> >

> > Rather than an outright ban, perhaps aversive treatment can be better

> > regulated and restricted to minimize abuses. But maybe that is not

> > possible. For me, I would require more than a sentence or two of

> > shocking rhetoric before I could make a decision on the matter to sign

> > a petition. I would like to hear some stories from parents who use

> > and support such methods. I bet their situations are not as black and

> > white as one might conclude.

> >

> > Lenny

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Hi , Rita,

I do not try to justify torture and I said as much. There is no need

to strawman and exaggerate my comments.

Rita, the scientific research I refer to is not pharma bribed junk

science like thimerosal. I refer specifically to the research Lovaas

himself conducted. There is nothing torture in that, but as I said

there is plenty of room for abuse, which I also said, I oppose.

So, I am opposed to torture, but I have questions about any wholesale

ban on aversive therapy. It is not clear to me how far the proposed

legislation goes and why it needs to go that far.

I need more than a two sentence assertions that something is bad

before I'm stampeded into signing a petition. I also need more than

the " facts " presented in one report in the TimesUnion, which I admit I

haven't read yet. Why are you opposed to further discussion of the

matter?

Lenny

>

> There is no justification for torture, Lenny.

>

> Have you read these news reports? They are hardly " shocking "

rhetoric and

> your choice of words is extremely insensitive to the cruelty these

children

> are being subjected to.

>

>

>

> _____

>

> From: EOHarm [mailto:EOHarm ] On

Behalf Of

> schaferatsprynet

> Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2006 5:27 PM

> EOHarm

> Subject: Re: Petition Against Aversive Therapies

>

>

> I think a fuller discussion of the issues are in order before we rush

> to limit the treatment choices of parents. Aversive therapy can be

> effective in some circumstances and there is science to back it up.

> One of the biggest problem with it is that I have seen far too often

> so-called aversion is little more than dressed up punishment. Because

> of this alone, it should never be a part of any educational or

> government funded program.

>

> Current medical treatments could also be described in the most

> gruesome and repulsive of terms. Take surgery for example. Imagine

> they take these sharp knives and they slice into human flesh causing

> blood to flow. Then sometimes muscles and organs themselves are

> stabbed with razor sharp instruments. Bones get sawed and drilled and

> sometimes whole body parts are chopped out. Often times the patient is

> left with dehabilitating pain and bruising that can last for months.

> If a part of the human body is not functioning correctly, it is

> because the body's systems are out of balance. No matter how

> expensive or how hard or how long it takes, we must look for humane

> ways of bringing the body back to health. Please support a law

> banning aversive surgery.

>

> Rather than an outright ban, perhaps aversive treatment can be better

> regulated and restricted to minimize abuses. But maybe that is not

> possible. For me, I would require more than a sentence or two of

> shocking rhetoric before I could make a decision on the matter to sign

> a petition. I would like to hear some stories from parents who use

> and support such methods. I bet their situations are not as black and

> white as one might conclude.

>

> Lenny

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

craniosacral therapy helped my child. when she was a newborn, she'd arch her back and scream if you held her in the cradle position. but right after her second treatment she was fine from then on.Chap 'n Ali <chapnalli@...> wrote: Carolyn, Have you ever tried Crainosacral therapy? My son used to constantly stand on his head and ram his body into the furniture for input. We were in EI at the time and started crainosacral and the behaviors increased for a week or so and then really went down to minimal to no incidence. Occasionally, he still wants the tags cut off or starts somersaults at bedtime but much more manageable and we haven't done it in 3 years. I definitely am going to revisit at some time because for the sensory piece, craino was

huge. Also, a child who bangs his head like that has some underlying issue, ie. dairy or gluten intolerance, inflammation, viral infection, etc. Whatever it may be, these "shock" treatments would only mask the real reason behind it. This of course is only my opinion and I'm not on any attack. I happen to know what the inside of a mental facility looks like due to my mother's illness and it's not a pretty sight what they do to these people. Lot's of drugs, shock treatments and what not create a much bigger divorce from reality. I will never forget what it was like as a child to witness their absence from themselves. - Re: Petition Against Aversive Therapies

Not gonna take the bait. Just wish is wasn't necessary. I'm a believer that behavior is communicating something...no matter who severe. So trying to find out what that is, be in needed sensory input, allergies, migraines, etc. But in extreme cases I guess it would be either medication or something like this. But to be honest, I'd try every darn thing....quit my job, sit next to our son 24/7 to try to figure it out. Our son used to head bang for the sensory input and because he had headaches. Too care of that, nothing. Same with biting, sensory input. Same with lots of other this. We were so tired of hash marks. Now we've got another problem, minimal compared to head butting, but he pulls all tags off and pulls loose strings to the point of losing sleeves and most buttongs. This even when I trim eveything up. We've gone mostly tagless, and do

a brushing protocol. Still trying to figure it out. Carolyn -- In EOHarm , "Debi" <fightingautism@...> wrote: > > Okay, here I go, everyone do a collective attack... > > I'm not saying this school is okay by any means. That said, a friend > has a child with a head-banging so bad he's broken his skull multiple > times. She's taken him to doctors, tried diets, supps, treatments, > drugs, etc. Would it not in this case where he's risking brain damage > or death, be better to use an adversive to help him stop than to allow > him to continue? > > Okay, let me have it, lol. > > Debi >

[Guest guest]

I kind of like it when he starts jumping around like Rumpelstiltskin.

Re: Petition Against Aversive Therapies

Lenny,There is also science backing up thimerosal as a harmless substance--just ask Marie McCormick or Offit.Common sense and respect for human dignity are basic motivators in how we treat others, but sadly, people can be persuaded to abandon these instincts without realizing it, as history shows us. Injecting mercury into babies and electrically shocking children (for not keeping a "neat appearance" or for any other reason) are both obviously wrong, but still these things are happening, and even applauded by some. As far as "shocking rhetoric" goes, the petition is taken from information in the news accounts and the New York bill. Even the most dispassionate account of what is happening to these kids is shocking. It's likely that many of the kids subjected to this type of treatment aren't able to speak. If they could speak, I wonder what they'd have to say about such things as being shocked by devices attached to their bodies, denied access to a restroom when needed, and being intentionally deprived of sleep?Many thanks to those who have signed on to the petition.Rita>> I think a fuller discussion of the issues are in order before we rush> to limit the treatment choices of parents. Aversive therapy can be> effective in some circumstances and there is science to back it up. > One of the biggest problem with it is that I have seen far too often> so-called aversion is little more than dressed up punishment. Because> of this alone, it should never be a part of any educational or> government funded program. > > Current medical treatments could also be described in the most> gruesome and repulsive of terms. Take surgery for example. Imagine> they take these sharp knives and they slice into human flesh causing> blood to flow. Then sometimes muscles and organs themselves are> stabbed with razor sharp instruments. Bones get sawed and drilled and> sometimes whole body parts are chopped out. Often times the patient is> left with dehabilitating pain and bruising that can last for months. > If a part of the human body is not functioning correctly, it is> because the body's systems are out of balance. No matter how> expensive or how hard or how long it takes, we must look for humane> ways of bringing the body back to health. Please support a law> banning aversive surgery.> > Rather than an outright ban, perhaps aversive treatment can be better> regulated and restricted to minimize abuses. But maybe that is not> possible. For me, I would require more than a sentence or two of> shocking rhetoric before I could make a decision on the matter to sign> a petition. I would like to hear some stories from parents who use> and support such methods. I bet their situations are not as black and> white as one might conclude.> > Lenny>

[Guest guest]

When my son was much younger (6 years ago) during his ABA therapy years we

wanted to address the inappropriate loud vocalizations that were interfering

with pretty much everything in his life. His well-known and well-respected

behavioral consultant proposed swabbing his mouth with an ice cold

previously frozen baby washcloth upon occurrence. This technique was

employed for a few sessions by his therapists with some initial success. At

some point, based on the fact that it could be considered aversive, it was

suspended. We have tried numerous Quiet programs since then and it is still

a huge maladaptive behavior that I sense is now ingrained in him.

While I know I would never resort to or support any type of shock therapy; I

will always wonder with the initial success we were seeing with what could

be considered a mildly aversive treatment... would we have nipped this long

ago?

I guess the question is where do you draw the line and for what types of

behaviors?

Re: Petition Against Aversive Therapies

>

>

> I think a fuller discussion of the issues are in order before we rush

> to limit the treatment choices of parents. Aversive therapy can be

> effective in some circumstances and there is science to back it up.

> One of the biggest problem with it is that I have seen far too often

> so-called aversion is little more than dressed up punishment. Because

> of this alone, it should never be a part of any educational or

> government funded program.

>

> Current medical treatments could also be described in the most

> gruesome and repulsive of terms. Take surgery for example. Imagine

> they take these sharp knives and they slice into human flesh causing

> blood to flow. Then sometimes muscles and organs themselves are

> stabbed with razor sharp instruments. Bones get sawed and drilled and

> sometimes whole body parts are chopped out. Often times the patient is

> left with dehabilitating pain and bruising that can last for months.

> If a part of the human body is not functioning correctly, it is

> because the body's systems are out of balance. No matter how

> expensive or how hard or how long it takes, we must look for humane

> ways of bringing the body back to health. Please support a law

> banning aversive surgery.

>

> Rather than an outright ban, perhaps aversive treatment can be better

> regulated and restricted to minimize abuses. But maybe that is not

> possible. For me, I would require more than a sentence or two of

> shocking rhetoric before I could make a decision on the matter to sign

> a petition. I would like to hear some stories from parents who use

> and support such methods. I bet their situations are not as black and

> white as one might conclude.

>

> Lenny

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Lenny,

You are a highly interesting person. I believe you like to play

devil's advocate as often as you can. Trying to get people to see all sides

and incite a well rounded conversation. I appreciate this about you and

find your sarcasm very entertaining. You and my husband would get along

famously! On this issue however (obviously NOT a humorous issue in any

way), I really believe it is another band aide, a harmful band aide, to

cover a greater physical issue that is being ignored in these children. I

think it sends us back in time to before we understood that these violent

self abusive actions have a cause. The inability to communicate alone would

not cause this degree of behavior but physical pain and the combination of

both would. -

Re: Petition Against Aversive Therapies

I think a fuller discussion of the issues are in order before we rush

to limit the treatment choices of parents. Aversive therapy can be

effective in some circumstances and there is science to back it up.

One of the biggest problem with it is that I have seen far too often

so-called aversion is little more than dressed up punishment. Because

of this alone, it should never be a part of any educational or

government funded program.

Current medical treatments could also be described in the most

gruesome and repulsive of terms. Take surgery for example. Imagine

they take these sharp knives and they slice into human flesh causing

blood to flow. Then sometimes muscles and organs themselves are

stabbed with razor sharp instruments. Bones get sawed and drilled and

sometimes whole body parts are chopped out. Often times the patient is

left with dehabilitating pain and bruising that can last for months.

If a part of the human body is not functioning correctly, it is

because the body's systems are out of balance. No matter how

expensive or how hard or how long it takes, we must look for humane

ways of bringing the body back to health. Please support a law

banning aversive surgery.

Rather than an outright ban, perhaps aversive treatment can be better

regulated and restricted to minimize abuses. But maybe that is not

possible. For me, I would require more than a sentence or two of

shocking rhetoric before I could make a decision on the matter to sign

a petition. I would like to hear some stories from parents who use

and support such methods. I bet their situations are not as black and

white as one might conclude.

Lenny

[Guest guest]

I have signed asap. We must be the witnesses that say no more.

It is mind-boggling that NY created this peice of Evil. Something

left over from the Holocaust or the Spanish Inquisition!

Adversives never never never work to tame or change behaviors to

those that are acceptable.

Knowingly do no harm!

What changes is the abuser get more and more abusive.

>

> Please take a moment to add your name to this petition.

>

> <http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?t=4gebyvbab.0.9vkmyvbab.faomd6n6.1 & p=http%

3A%2F%2Fwww

> .PetitionOnline.com%2FNYs6876%2Fpetition.html>

> http://www.PetitionOnline.com/NYs6876/petition.html

>

> <http://rs6.net/on.jsp?

t=1101315215583.0.1011367688197.1 & o=http://ui.constan

> tcontact.com/images/p1x1.gif>

>

>

> <http://www.nationalautismassociation.org/images/nlogoblue.gif>

>

>

> NATIONAL AUTISM ASSOCIATION SPEAKS OUT AGAINST " AVERSIVE

THERAPIES " USED ON

> CHILDREN

>

> " THERE HAS TO BE A BETTER WAY, " SAYS NONPROFIT GROUP

>

> Nixa, MO - In a TimesUnion.com article published last week

entitled " Should

> pain be a part of learning? " writer Rick Carlin touched on a highly

> controversial collection of aversive therapy methods used on

children with

> neurological disorders such as autism.

>

> Carlin described such methods as " hitting, slapping, pinching,

kicking,

> hurling, using painful or intrusive sprays or inhalants, and

withholding

> sleep, shelter, bedding or bathroom facilities, " and cited

facilities such

> as the Rotenberg Residential Center as utilizing these methods on

troubled

> patients. Also mentioned was electrical shock therapy.

>

> " We can't allow this to continue, " says Fournier, President

of the

> National Autism Association. " There has to be a better way of

addressing

> behaviors associated with severe autism and related disorders. "

>

> The national group says regulations need to be in place to prevent

aversive

> therapies. " We're interested in talking to facilities such as the

Rotenberg

> Center, and are willing to help in any way we can to replace these

cruel

> therapies with something less aversive, " says NAA Executive

Director Rita

> Shreffler. " These children simply cannot be subjected to these

methods, and

> finding a better way should be the priority of these types of

treatment

> centers. "

>

> The article noted new legislation, sponsored by Senator Marty

Golden (R-NY),

> which would ban aversive therapies. " The National Autism

Association

> supports this legislation, " says Fournier. " we're more than

willing to help

> any political figure ban these inhumane practices. "

>

> To view the article, visit

> http://timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyID=482318

> <http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?t=4gebyvbab.0.xvkmyvbab.faomd6n6.1 & p=http%

3A%2F%2Ftim

> esunion.com%2FAspStories%2Fstory.asp%3FstoryID%3D482318%26category%

3DCAPITOL

> %26BCCode%3DHOME%26newsdate%3D5%2F16%2F2006>

> & category=CAPITOL & BCCode=HOME & newsdate=5/16/2006.

>

> Related articles:

>

>

http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2006/05/23/ny

_debate

> s_mass_schools_shock_use/

> <http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?t=4gebyvbab.0.yvkmyvbab.faomd6n6.1 & p=http%

3A%2F%2Fwww

> .boston.com%2Fnews%2Flocal%2Fmassachusetts%2Farticles%2F2006%2F05%

2F23%2Fny_

> debates_mass_schools_shock_use%2F>

>

>

http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles/2006/05/22/a_question_of_to

ugh_lov

> e_vs_torture/

> <http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?t=4gebyvbab.0.zvkmyvbab.faomd6n6.1 & p=http%

3A%2F%2Fwww

> .boston.com%2Fnews%2Flocal%2Farticles%2F2006%2F05%2F22%

2Fa_question_of_tough

> _love_vs_torture%2F>

>

> To sign a petition supporting a ban of these methods, click here

> http://www.PetitionOnline.com/NYs6876/petition.html

> <http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?t=4gebyvbab.0.9vkmyvbab.faomd6n6.1 & p=http%

3A%2F%2Fwww

> .PetitionOnline.com%2FNYs6876%2Fpetition.html>

>

> For more information about autism, visit www.nationalautism.org

> <http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?t=4gebyvbab.0.8wkoaebab.faomd6n6.1 & p=http%

3A%2F%2Fwww

> .nationalautism.org> .

>

> -30-

>

>

> Think Autism. Think Cure.

>

>

> <http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?t=4gebyvbab.0.cnfjh6n6.faomd6n6.1 & p=http%3A%

2F%2Fwww.

> nationalautismassociation.org%2F> Click here to visit our website

>

[Guest guest]

Inappropriate is in the eye of the beholder... We consider all of

our son's behaviors as appropriate. He is truly doing his best 24/7

despite what NT society may dictate.

> >

> > There is no justification for torture, Lenny.

> >

> > Have you read these news reports? They are hardly " shocking "

> rhetoric and

> > your choice of words is extremely insensitive to the cruelty

these

> children

> > are being subjected to.

> >

> >

> >

> > _____

> >

> > From: EOHarm [mailto:EOHarm ] On

> Behalf Of

> > schaferatsprynet

> > Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2006 5:27 PM

> > EOHarm

> > Subject: Re: Petition Against Aversive Therapies

> >

> >

> > I think a fuller discussion of the issues are in order before we

rush

> > to limit the treatment choices of parents. Aversive therapy can

be

> > effective in some circumstances and there is science to back it

up.

> > One of the biggest problem with it is that I have seen far too

often

> > so-called aversion is little more than dressed up punishment.

Because

> > of this alone, it should never be a part of any educational or

> > government funded program.

> >

> > Current medical treatments could also be described in the most

> > gruesome and repulsive of terms. Take surgery for example.

Imagine

> > they take these sharp knives and they slice into human flesh

causing

> > blood to flow. Then sometimes muscles and organs themselves are

> > stabbed with razor sharp instruments. Bones get sawed and

drilled and

> > sometimes whole body parts are chopped out. Often times the

patient is

> > left with dehabilitating pain and bruising that can last for

months.

> > If a part of the human body is not functioning correctly, it is

> > because the body's systems are out of balance. No matter how

> > expensive or how hard or how long it takes, we must look for

humane

> > ways of bringing the body back to health. Please support a law

> > banning aversive surgery.

> >

> > Rather than an outright ban, perhaps aversive treatment can be

better

> > regulated and restricted to minimize abuses. But maybe that is

not

> > possible. For me, I would require more than a sentence or two of

> > shocking rhetoric before I could make a decision on the matter

to sign

> > a petition. I would like to hear some stories from parents who

use

> > and support such methods. I bet their situations are not as

black and

> > white as one might conclude.

> >

> > Lenny

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Benito,

Would you be my dad, too?

Re: Petition Against Aversive Therapies> >> >> > I think a fuller discussion of the issues are in order before we rush> > to limit the treatment choices of parents. Aversive therapy can be> > effective in some circumstances and there is science to back it up.> > One of the biggest problem with it is that I have seen far too often> > so-called aversion is little more than dressed up punishment. Because> > of this alone, it should never be a part of any educational or> > government funded program.> >> > Current medical treatments could also be described in the most> > gruesome and repulsive of terms. Take surgery for example. Imagine> > they take these sharp knives and they slice into human flesh causing> > blood to flow. Then sometimes muscles and organs themselves are> > stabbed with razor sharp instruments. Bones get sawed and drilled and> > sometimes whole body parts are chopped out. Often times the patient is> > left with dehabilitating pain and bruising that can last for months.> > If a part of the human body is not functioning correctly, it is> > because the body's systems are out of balance. No matter how> > expensive or how hard or how long it takes, we must look for humane> > ways of bringing the body back to health. Please support a law> > banning aversive surgery.> >> > Rather than an outright ban, perhaps aversive treatment can be better> > regulated and restricted to minimize abuses. But maybe that is not> > possible. For me, I would require more than a sentence or two of> > shocking rhetoric before I could make a decision on the matter to sign> > a petition. I would like to hear some stories from parents who use> > and support such methods. I bet their situations are not as black and> > white as one might conclude.> >> > Lenny> >> >> >> >> >> >> >

[Guest guest]

Benito,

Would you be my dad, too?

Re: Petition Against Aversive Therapies> >> >> > I think a fuller discussion of the issues are in order before we rush> > to limit the treatment choices of parents. Aversive therapy can be> > effective in some circumstances and there is science to back it up.> > One of the biggest problem with it is that I have seen far too often> > so-called aversion is little more than dressed up punishment. Because> > of this alone, it should never be a part of any educational or> > government funded program.> >> > Current medical treatments could also be described in the most> > gruesome and repulsive of terms. Take surgery for example. Imagine> > they take these sharp knives and they slice into human flesh causing> > blood to flow. Then sometimes muscles and organs themselves are> > stabbed with razor sharp instruments. Bones get sawed and drilled and> > sometimes whole body parts are chopped out. Often times the patient is> > left with dehabilitating pain and bruising that can last for months.> > If a part of the human body is not functioning correctly, it is> > because the body's systems are out of balance. No matter how> > expensive or how hard or how long it takes, we must look for humane> > ways of bringing the body back to health. Please support a law> > banning aversive surgery.> >> > Rather than an outright ban, perhaps aversive treatment can be better> > regulated and restricted to minimize abuses. But maybe that is not> > possible. For me, I would require more than a sentence or two of> > shocking rhetoric before I could make a decision on the matter to sign> > a petition. I would like to hear some stories from parents who use> > and support such methods. I bet their situations are not as black and> > white as one might conclude.> >> > Lenny> >> >> >> >> >> >> >