Re: Very OT - ? Religious Waiver - Dana?

[Guest guest]

Sign me up!!!

In a message dated 5/23/2006 9:55:59 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

jenniferdmeade@... writes:

Hi, sorry for the cross post but here is a question (it may be undo able but

doesn't hurt to ask right?)... Why can't " we " start a " church " and make

the doctrine no vaccines and something simple like the Golden Rule and have

that be it - that way everyone could have letters on " church " letterhead. And

can't a church be supplementary and open to all so that no one would have to

compromise any religious and / or philosophical beliefs and remain in whatever

church, synagogue etc. that they already belong to? You can have dual

memberships can't you? Does anyone know what you have to do to become a

" church " ?

I know that this sounds crazy but, unfortunately, they can indeed question

religious exemption (church letter head and having a " church " would help

greatly) and lots of states (like land - where I live) don't have a

philosophical waiver. And titers... my son regressed after a flu shot at 10m

and

never got the MMR - so we definitely don't have the titers and they

can question those too... Just an idea. Apparently when your child is at

stake you can get very creative and wacky...

(http://paulchelation.blogspot.com/)

[Guest guest]

I think that's brilliant.

Meade <jenniferdmeade@...> wrote: Hi, sorry for the cross post

but here is a question (it may be undo able but doesn't hurt to ask right?)...

Why can't " we " start a " church " and make the doctrine no vaccines and something

simple like the Golden Rule and have that be it - that way everyone could have

letters on " church " letterhead. And can't a church be supplementary and open to

all so that no one would have to compromise any religious and / or philosophical

beliefs and remain in whatever church, synagogue etc. that they already belong

to? You can have dual memberships can't you? Does anyone know what you have to

do to become a " church " ? I know that this sounds crazy but, unfortunately, they

can indeed question religious exemption (church letter head and having a

" church " would help greatly) and lots of states (like land - where I live)

don't have a philosophical waiver. And titers... my son regressed after a flu

shot at 10m and never got the MMR -

so we definitely don't have the titers and they

can question those too... Just an idea. Apparently when your child is at stake

you can get very creative and wacky...

---------------------------------

Ring'em or ping'em. Make PC-to-phone calls as low as 1¢/min with

Messenger with Voice.

[Guest guest]

I LOVE this idea. I am floating it on Mothering.com in the

vaccination forum. I copied your post without names attached. I'll

let you know if anything develops. And please post if you start this

Church. I too want to join. Seriously.

Pat

>

> Hi, sorry for the cross post but here is a question (it may be

undo able but doesn't hurt to ask right?)... Why can't " we " start

a " church " and make the doctrine no vaccines and something simple

like the Golden Rule and have that be it - that way everyone could

have letters on " church " letterhead. And can't a church be

supplementary and open to all so that no one would have to

compromise any religious and / or philosophical beliefs and remain

in whatever church, synagogue etc. that they already belong to? You

can have dual memberships can't you? Does anyone know what you have

to do to become a " church " ? I know that this sounds crazy but,

unfortunately, they can indeed question religious exemption (church

letter head and having a " church " would help greatly) and lots of

states (like land - where I live) don't have a philosophical

waiver. And titers... my son regressed after a flu shot at 10m and

never got the MMR - so we definitely don't have the titers and they

> can question those too... Just an idea. Apparently when your

child is at stake you can get very creative and wacky...

>

>

> ---------------------------------

> Ring'em or ping'em. Make PC-to-phone calls as low as 1¢/min with

Messenger with Voice.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Jen, I am behind you on this. If this gets started, i want in.

[ ] Re: Very OT - ? Religious Waiver - Dana?

I LOVE this idea. I am floating it on Mothering.com in the

vaccination forum. I copied your post without names attached. I'll

let you know if anything develops. And please post if you start this

Church. I too want to join. Seriously.

Pat

>

> Hi, sorry for the cross post but here is a question (it may be

undo able but doesn't hurt to ask right?)... Why can't " we " start

a " church " and make the doctrine no vaccines and something simple

like the Golden Rule and have that be it - that way everyone could

have letters on " church " letterhead. And can't a church be

supplementary and open to all so that no one would have to

compromise any religious and / or philosophical beliefs and remain

in whatever church, synagogue etc. that they already belong to? You

can have dual memberships can't you? Does anyone know what you have

to do to become a " church " ? I know that this sounds crazy but,

unfortunately, they can indeed question religious exemption (church

letter head and having a " church " would help greatly) and lots of

states (like land - where I live) don't have a philosophical

waiver. And titers... my son regressed after a flu shot at 10m and

never got the MMR - so we definitely don't have the titers and they

> can question those too... Just an idea. Apparently when your

child is at stake you can get very creative and wacky...

>

>

> ---------------------------------

> Ring'em or ping'em. Make PC-to-phone calls as low as 1¢/min with

Messenger with Voice.

>

>

[Guest guest]

WOW! I thought that people were going to tell me that I was nuts but I am

pleasently surprised. I found this hokey link on line where you can become a

" Reverand " of some weird church (by sending in $ and the same day they send you

a certificate) but they said that once you become a Reverand, it's legal and you

can start your own church w/ no affiliation to them... I have to check out if

it's actually legal... If anyone wants the link and would like to help me out

w/ this here it is... Be warned - very, very hokey but hey - if we can make it

work for us and our kids... http://www.pulc.com/

Dalton <dalton897@...> wrote: Jen, I am behind you on this. If

this gets started, i want in.

[ ] Re: Very OT - ? Religious Waiver - Dana?

I LOVE this idea. I am floating it on Mothering.com in the

vaccination forum. I copied your post without names attached. I'll

let you know if anything develops. And please post if you start this

Church. I too want to join. Seriously.

Pat

>

> Hi, sorry for the cross post but here is a question (it may be

undo able but doesn't hurt to ask right?)... Why can't " we " start

a " church " and make the doctrine no vaccines and something simple

like the Golden Rule and have that be it - that way everyone could

have letters on " church " letterhead. And can't a church be

supplementary and open to all so that no one would have to

compromise any religious and / or philosophical beliefs and remain

in whatever church, synagogue etc. that they already belong to? You

can have dual memberships can't you? Does anyone know what you have

to do to become a " church " ? I know that this sounds crazy but,

unfortunately, they can indeed question religious exemption (church

letter head and having a " church " would help greatly) and lots of

states (like land - where I live) don't have a philosophical

waiver. And titers... my son regressed after a flu shot at 10m and

never got the MMR - so we definitely don't have the titers and they

> can question those too... Just an idea. Apparently when your

child is at stake you can get very creative and wacky...

>

>

> ---------------------------------

> Ring'em or ping'em. Make PC-to-phone calls as low as 1¢/min with

Messenger with Voice.

>

>

[Guest guest]

That is a pretty cool idea!! It could really get us some media attention which

could be both good and bad. Interesting though. Let us know if you do start a

church, I am in!!! The philosophy is simple like you said, live by the Golden

Rule and no vaccines. I like the creativity of it. And you are right, if we

form a church then our religious rights have to be protected. You maybe onto

something really cool here!! We could even have once a year meetings to discuss

doctrine, in Orlando...at Disney World!!!

With much support!!

Meade <jenniferdmeade@...> wrote:

WOW! I thought that people were going to tell me that I was nuts but I am

pleasently surprised. I found this hokey link on line where you can become a

" Reverand " of some weird church (by sending in $ and the same day they send you

a certificate) but they said that once you become a Reverand, it's legal and you

can start your own church w/ no affiliation to them... I have to check out if

it's actually legal... If anyone wants the link and would like to help me out

w/ this here it is... Be warned - very, very hokey but hey - if we can make it

work for us and our kids... http://www.pulc.com/

Dalton <dalton897@...> wrote: Jen, I am behind you on this. If

this gets started, i want in.

[ ] Re: Very OT - ? Religious Waiver - Dana?

I LOVE this idea. I am floating it on Mothering.com in the

vaccination forum. I copied your post without names attached. I'll

let you know if anything develops. And please post if you start this

Church. I too want to join. Seriously.

Pat

>

> Hi, sorry for the cross post but here is a question (it may be

undo able but doesn't hurt to ask right?)... Why can't " we " start

a " church " and make the doctrine no vaccines and something simple

like the Golden Rule and have that be it - that way everyone could

have letters on " church " letterhead. And can't a church be

supplementary and open to all so that no one would have to

compromise any religious and / or philosophical beliefs and remain

in whatever church, synagogue etc. that they already belong to? You

can have dual memberships can't you? Does anyone know what you have

to do to become a " church " ? I know that this sounds crazy but,

unfortunately, they can indeed question religious exemption (church

letter head and having a " church " would help greatly) and lots of

states (like land - where I live) don't have a philosophical

waiver. And titers... my son regressed after a flu shot at 10m and

never got the MMR - so we definitely don't have the titers and they

> can question those too... Just an idea. Apparently when your

child is at stake you can get very creative and wacky...

>

>

> ---------------------------------

> Ring'em or ping'em. Make PC-to-phone calls as low as 1¢/min with

Messenger with Voice.

>

>

[Guest guest]

I'm a retired Episcopal priest and I wrote a letter for my son and

daughter-in-law

supporting their religious position but in Florida they did NOT need it and the

nurse took

one look at it and gave it back to me. In cases you are interested it it said

that when the

parents baptized the baby, they promised to help raise him to the full stature

of Christ and

that did not include poisoning his brain or giving him live virus vaccines that

he couldn't

handle.

But, I repeat, it was NOT needed.

Peace,

Kathy E.

>

> Hi, sorry for the cross post but here is a question (it may be undo able but

doesn't hurt

to ask right?)... Why can't " we " start a " church " and make the doctrine no

vaccines and

something simple like the Golden Rule and have that be it - that way everyone

could have

letters on " church " letterhead. And can't a church be supplementary and open to

all so

that no one would have to compromise any religious and / or philosophical

beliefs and

remain in whatever church, synagogue etc. that they already belong to? You can

have dual

memberships can't you? Does anyone know what you have to do to become a

" church " ? I

know that this sounds crazy but, unfortunately, they can indeed question

religious

exemption (church letter head and having a " church " would help greatly) and lots

of states

(like land - where I live) don't have a philosophical waiver. And titers...

my son

regressed after a flu shot at 10m and never got the MMR - so we definitely don't

have the

titers and they

> can question those too... Just an idea. Apparently when your child is at

stake you can

get very creative and wacky...

>

>

> ---------------------------------

> Ring'em or ping'em. Make PC-to-phone calls as low as 1¢/min with

Messenger

with Voice.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Florida is a good state to live in for religious wavers. Here all you have to

do is tell them you want a religious waver and they have to give you one. It is

against your civil rights to question your religion and this has been upheld in

courts. Anyone who questions you or asks for documentation of any kind is

commiting a crime and reminding them of this generally stops them. I had one

lady ask me why and I told her it was a long story. She didnt' comment further

other than to say I might should reconsider if I took them out of the states.

Kathleen Eickwort <Kathleen_E@...> wrote:

I'm a retired Episcopal priest and I wrote a letter for my son and

daughter-in-law

supporting their religious position but in Florida they did NOT need it and the

nurse took

one look at it and gave it back to me. In cases you are interested it it said

that when the

parents baptized the baby, they promised to help raise him to the full stature

of Christ and

that did not include poisoning his brain or giving him live virus vaccines that

he couldn't

handle.

But, I repeat, it was NOT needed.

Peace,

Kathy E.

>

> Hi, sorry for the cross post but here is a question (it may be undo able but

doesn't hurt

to ask right?)... Why can't " we " start a " church " and make the doctrine no

vaccines and

something simple like the Golden Rule and have that be it - that way everyone

could have

letters on " church " letterhead. And can't a church be supplementary and open to

all so

that no one would have to compromise any religious and / or philosophical

beliefs and

remain in whatever church, synagogue etc. that they already belong to? You can

have dual

memberships can't you? Does anyone know what you have to do to become a

" church " ? I

know that this sounds crazy but, unfortunately, they can indeed question

religious

exemption (church letter head and having a " church " would help greatly) and lots

of states

(like land - where I live) don't have a philosophical waiver. And titers...

my son

regressed after a flu shot at 10m and never got the MMR - so we definitely don't

have the

titers and they

> can question those too... Just an idea. Apparently when your child is at

stake you can

get very creative and wacky...

>

>

> ---------------------------------

> Ring'em or ping'em. Make PC-to-phone calls as low as 1¢/min with

Messenger

with Voice.

>

>

[Guest guest]

> Hi, sorry for the cross post but here is a question (it may be undo

able but doesn't hurt to ask right?)... Why can't " we " start a

" church " and make the doctrine no vaccines and something simple like

the Golden Rule and have that be it - that way everyone could have

letters on " church " letterhead.

Well, the church letterhead requirement is unconstitutional. About

1-2 years ago, in Arkansas I think, a court found the state's

requirement that the person claiming the religious exemption be from

" a legally recognized church " to be unconstitutional. Basically, a

religion is a religion, even a religion with you as the only follower,

whether or not it is recognized by anyone else. Unfortunately, the

effect of this was to invalidate the religion waiver entirely, and the

state did not have a philosophical waiver, which left only the medical

waiver. I remember quite a few emails [both on public message boards

and to me privately] from people in that state, asking for advice and

support on adding a constitutionally correct religion waiver for that

state's vaccine exemption.

There are online sites which will give you a certification that you

are a minister of the " Church of Questionable Origins " or something

like that, you can certainly look into that.

As a general rule, the state is not permitted to inquire into the

specifics of a religious belief, the only requirement usually is that

they are " sincerely held " religious beliefs. And even that, generally

the state cannot really question you if you simply state that they are

sincerely held. For example, asking for additional information, such

as whether other vaccines have been given in the past, etc, does not

allow for the possibility that a person has converted or otherwise

" enlightened " or instructed, and thereby modify their beliefs. If the

state was allowed to make further inquiry, the state would be a final

arbiter of a perons's religious beliefs, which so far is still

prohibited by the constitution.

I guess the bottom line, is that altho this " church " idea sounds good,

it should not really be necessary, altho sometimes a state will tend

to go overboard on what is " required " to meet the religion exemption.

I read what Kerrie had written about her certification, and it

appeared to meet the NY requirements. A school is not permitted to

require anything more than the state law requires, but I am not a NY

attorney, so I don't know NY case law on that. It might be a good idea

to research the case which invalidated the Arkansas [i think] law, and

show it to the NY school district.

Dana

[Guest guest]

Great thoughts, Dana. Another viewpoint is that traditional, orthodox

Christian churches are having a difficult time being recognized as legit.

It takes a lot more paperwork, filing, accounting procedures, etc., than it

did even ten years ago. As lovely as it would be to have a simple solution,

I think this could be a costly one eventually. And if one is a member of a

traditional Christian church, there's no dual-memberships. Dana pointed

out a critical element - the legality or illegality of the school

questioning religious beliefs, above and beyond the scope of the law. Has

that been thoroughly checked?

Speaking of churches - for anyone in southern CA, this sounds fabulous - a

'real' church for families with Autism.......

Autistic Ministry Increases Impact of California ChurchREDONDO BEACH, CA

(September 9, 2004) - The plight of a southern California couple has turned

into a blessing for many families attending Journey Covenant Church, a

two-year-old church plant that has made strong efforts to minister to

families with autistic children.

For the second year, the church sponsored a Friends of Angels " Escape From

the City " camp in nearby San Capistrano, finding two volunteers to work

with each autistic participant and adding hospitality and security teams to

patrol the grounds. Last summer, the Friends of Angels camp attracted eight

families, said church planting pastor Jim . This year's camp roster

included 13 autistic families (16 autistic children in all) with a total of

95 in attendance.

There are activities for the siblings and parents of the autistic children

and the setting allows families to relax a bit and enjoy nature in a safe

and affirming environment. Journey Covenant's ministry to families with

autistic children started largely through a relationship built with

Greg and Hubert, the parents of three autistic children. The Huberts

were interested in being part of the church plant, but felt their needs

would be too great for the young congregation to handle. encouraged

them to attend Journey Covenant and the Huberts were warmly welcomed by the

congregation.

remainder of article: http://www.covchurch.org/cov/news/item3858.html

Sharon, NH

I guess the bottom line, is that altho this " church " idea sounds good,

> it should not really be necessary, altho sometimes a state will tend

> to go overboard on what is " required " to meet the religion exemption.

> I read what Kerrie had written about her certification, and it

> appeared to meet the NY requirements. A school is not permitted to

> require anything more than the state law requires, but I am not a NY

> attorney, so I don't know NY case law on that. It might be a good idea

> to research the case which invalidated the Arkansas [i think] law, and

> show it to the NY school district.

>

> Dana

>

>