Inclusion

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 9/4/00 8:05:42 PM Central Daylight Time,

rdill@... writes:

> OK .. open fire, but that is what I think and my focus is on outcomes

> and not law.

>

> Rick

HI Rick

No Flames but I have a very different perspective (since last week lol). On

our local news, a Sped classroom was forgotten. It was 107 degrees out and

children sat in their self contained rooms, wiping the sweat off their brow,

NOW I asked myself WHY, why were they not thought of......to be important?

why were the Reg kids sitting in the luxury of AC? is this the way I want

Sara educated? to be thought of as NOT important? should I as a parent fight

for the same environment as Sara's typical peers?

This is their ATTITUDE......take away the heat, the segregation (they were in

a segregate, NON-AC building), the disregard of human life, this is their

ATTITUDE.

Now I spoke at our University awhile back and I had a professor tell me that

Sara in no way could be included in a 6th grade Social Studies class. He said

the books were on a 6th grade reading level, sooooo Sara could not be in this

class. I turned to him and asked him if all 6th graders were on a 6th grade

reading level, he answered no (I agreed as I have read the reports on our

typical population and the diversity of readers/grade level.) I reminded him

a good teacher can and will teach to the wide spectrum of reading levels, and

modifications can be done. I explained to him (and his class of future

teachers) that a curriculum is important to our kids even if it is at their

own level. I gave examples on how a planet discussion can benefit Sara, she

may learn the names of the planets while her peers learn the distance between

them. I left his room sharing an insight to how an inclusive class can work,

Heehee he did thank me

I believe inclusion can work for all, in all grades but it takes a team to

work hard at it. I also plan Sara's education year by year. Who knows I might

be homeschooling during Sara's HS years Heehee if crime is still getting

worse.

I'm sure you made your decisions, like I plan to do, one year at a time

Kathy mom to Sara 8...............very unhappy with some self contained

classrooms here.........at the HS level ugggggggggg

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 9/4/2000 6:53:35 PM Pacific Daylight Time,

M4858@... writes:

<< It was 107 degrees out and

children sat in their self contained rooms, wiping the sweat off their brow,

NOW I asked myself WHY, why were they not thought of......to be important?

>>

This is really STRANGE Kathy, schools here in MN cancelled classes last week

because of the heat on thurs. (and it was only something in the 90's?) most

schools here don't have AC so they chose not to have classes, I suppose they

figured the kids would be to busy thinking about how hot they were and not

learn anything anyway so the left them home. LOL

Joy

[Guest guest]

Ok Rick, I can not keep quiet on this one..lol. As always, I respect our

differences of opinions.

Our children/adults have deficits. I wish it weren't so, but

'inclusion' won't fix that. We can thrust them up against the regular

population to teach the regular population about them. That can cause

friendship, sympathy, or ugly disdain ... or even worse. We have to

look very careful at acceptance to see if it is sympathy or hidden

disdain.

Rick, this doesn't just pertain to disabled children but other children as

well.

I have to encourage parents of cwds to go out into the world and meet as

many adults with down syndrome as they can. This will give them at

least a measure of what is the scope of possibilities for their kids.

Parents can do the same with their NDA kids as well. Each individual child

is unique and each child is special, with and without disabilities.

Yes, I expect and hope that some of the cwds growing up today will far

out achieve my own young adult. Your child will be different, but you

can begin to set some bounds on your expectations.

Rick, this comes with time as being a parent. I don't think newer parents

need to set boundries. They will come as their child gets older. Meanwhile,

we must support parents no matter what age their child is. I may get flamed

for this as well...but...I think new parents go through a stage where they

have this enourmous energy to make changes happen. The truth is, they do for

many issues that effect our children. I would never want to cap that

enthusiasm and hope on anyone. As our children get older and we get to know

them better, our ideals, expectations, dreams, goals, etc. change. While

many kids with DS have been successfully included in high school, most

parents realize that the I in IDEA stands for individualized. Only time will

tell what placement our children will be in later on.

I also haven't talked about 'resource rooms' because I have

little experience with them. I feel that they must be a little like the

'study halls' of my era, which were mostly poorly spent time with

distracting things going on.

NO, NO, NO!! Resource rooms are where a child gets more individualized

instruction. goes to resource for reading. The other kids in his

class have a different curriculum but 's is tailored to meet HIS

needs. His special ed teacher is in the resource room working with him on

reading, language and even math. Her techniques may be different than his

regular teacher uses. Her materials are different. He goes on his pace,

which has surprised me to say the least.

Rick, I value the friendships has with his NDA peers. I also hope

and pray that he will have a friend move into this area who is his age and

also has DS. It's a balance..finding what is best for " my " child. I do know

that the community is a valuable part of his life, from the little kids he

knows from school and daycare to the parents of these children and the

support staff in his life.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 9/4/00 8:05:42 PM Central Daylight Time,

rdill@... writes:

> Among parents of young adults, there seems to have been a diminishing of

> aim for many (including us). The idea that our child might teach

> doctors by becoming one of them has past. The idea of their living a

> 'normal' life, getting married and perhaps even raising children has

> been tested and disarded. Most of us have given up on driving and the

> level of freedom it brings to their NDA peers. The idea of jobs and

> careers (an are still needing a lot of work) has diminished, although it

> isn't gone.

Hi Rick ..........again

I just reread your post and I'm a bit depressed over this above paragraph

(and not a whole lot depresses me) I'm hoping it doesn't do the same to young

moms because I surely don't see life this way. I try to stay pretty much in

reality, I really don't see Sara driving as she is now an epileptic, so

that's OK I'm not crazy about teen drivers anyway lololol I do see her

married...she tells me daily about marrying Lane, another member of our list

Sara has told me she is going to have babies, Ona and I will get them a

cat Heehee I have always sighed big when Sara tells me what she's going to

do, but you know she's achieved a lot of her own goals already. As far as

your thoughts on Inclusion I must ask you this and please don't think I'm

being rude, I have to ask you the same questions I ask others who say

something can or won't work

How many workshops have you attended on Inclusion? how many books have you

read to help modify a curriculum, so Inclusion can be successful? How many

classes have you visited where Inclusion is working? or not working? How much

are you really involved in the " slogan " Inclusion? I ask you this because

it's easy to disregard something you've never tried. I too said the same

things you have said, this was before I got out there and did some hands on

research. I threw Sara into a Kindy class after all her Sped teachers said I

was going to overwhelm her with the large population of this class, I worried

all summer over this and they were wrong, Sara succeeded without any

compromises. Now in second grade she demands this type of education, I made

SARA compromise and send her to Resource class for reading and math......I

too saw the inadequacies of the Reg Ed teachers to teach her these areas. But

I think I'm qualified to say this because Sara and myself tried it see

what I'm saying, you have to go into the classroom to see if it's not the

thing to do. I know some older parents too who have slammed Inclusion, they

were very surprised once they tried it, with all of the benefits

Compromise? really by HS time what are they compromising? Reading? math?

Aren't most of these skills drilled in by this time? If Sara makes it to only

a 3rd grade reading level by the time HS hits, then do I really expect her to

jump 3-whatever grades by the time HS is over? My older kids are recent

graduates Heehee of HS and I can see Sara learning some of the curriculum

they learned and her conversation skills will be what I see as gains

I hope this helps enlightens you to what is possible with

Inclusion/mainstreaming

I don't really believe any parent would subject their child to something that

would be detrimental JUST because it's a philosophy or a slogan

Kathy mom to Sara 8

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 09/04/2000 7:37:18 PM US Mountain Standard Time,

lowenthalrj@... writes:

<< that Jess will be included in the 6th grade

social studies class this year-- >>

YES YES YES!!! PLEASE keep us posted and give us all the insights and

techniques that we will need for when our kids are also fully included in

6th grade social studies,,,,,,,,,, and 6th grade math,,,,, and 6th grade

language arts.....and 6th grade...... well,,,, just all of 6th grade.....LOL!!

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 9/4/2000 11:19:16 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

Kent_Moreno@... writes:

<<

There are many parallels between the move to de-segregate schools in the

late 50's and early 60's and the inclusion movement in the 90's and 00's.

One of the biggest question is " How " ? >>

Kent....this is one of the best things I have read on inclusion yet. AMEN!!!

[Guest guest]

Tomorrow is first day of school here, so I don't have adequate time to

address Rick's comments (the spirit is willing, but the alarm clock is set).

Did want to let you know, Kathy, that Jess will be included in the 6th grade

social studies class this year--it was one of the reg ed classes we DIDN " T

have to push for. The teachers suggested it.

Judi

Re: Inclusion

In a message dated 9/4/00 8:05:42 PM Central Daylight Time,

rdill@... writes:

> OK .. open fire, but that is what I think and my focus is on outcomes

> and not law.

>

> Rick

HI Rick

No Flames but I have a very different perspective (since last week lol). On

our local news, a Sped classroom was forgotten. It was 107 degrees out and

children sat in their self contained rooms, wiping the sweat off their brow,

NOW I asked myself WHY, why were they not thought of......to be important?

why were the Reg kids sitting in the luxury of AC? is this the way I want

Sara educated? to be thought of as NOT important? should I as a parent fight

for the same environment as Sara's typical peers?

This is their ATTITUDE......take away the heat, the segregation (they were

in

a segregate, NON-AC building), the disregard of human life, this is their

ATTITUDE.

Now I spoke at our University awhile back and I had a professor tell me that

Sara in no way could be included in a 6th grade Social Studies class. He

said

the books were on a 6th grade reading level, sooooo Sara could not be in

this

class. I turned to him and asked him if all 6th graders were on a 6th grade

reading level, he answered no (I agreed as I have read the reports on our

typical population and the diversity of readers/grade level.) I reminded him

a good teacher can and will teach to the wide spectrum of reading levels,

and

modifications can be done. I explained to him (and his class of future

teachers) that a curriculum is important to our kids even if it is at their

own level. I gave examples on how a planet discussion can benefit Sara, she

may learn the names of the planets while her peers learn the distance

between

them. I left his room sharing an insight to how an inclusive class can work,

Heehee he did thank me

I believe inclusion can work for all, in all grades but it takes a team to

work hard at it. I also plan Sara's education year by year. Who knows I

might

be homeschooling during Sara's HS years Heehee if crime is still getting

worse.

I'm sure you made your decisions, like I plan to do, one year at a time

Kathy mom to Sara 8...............very unhappy with some self contained

classrooms here.........at the HS level ugggggggggg

[Guest guest]

Hi Rick!

I think you bring up some very good points. Ultimately, a child's

education must be individualized to meet their needs and I do believe that

some instruction may be able to better occur in a pull-out environment.

While I am an advocate for inclusion for every child, I am not an advocate

of full-inclusion for every child. Each child's placement must be based

on the needs of the specific child. Currently, the research strongly

suggests that if you have two exellent educational placements one a

segregated placement and the other and inclusive palcement, the child with

the developmental disability will achieve more both edicationally and

socially, in the inclusive placement.

Personally, given the significance of his delays, I know that inclusion

will become significantly more difficult with Ben as he gets older and

that some instruction will occur best in a pull-out environment. There

are of course options such as parallel instruction. As difficult as

inclusion may become, given the significant benefits which it has to offer

both Ben and his non-disabled peers, to have Ben in a totally segregared

environment will never be an option.

There are many parallels between the move to de-segregate schools in the

late 50's and early 60's and the inclusion movement in the 90's and 00's.

One of the biggest question is " How " ? As you remember, Eisenhower and

the many Republicans wanted to " take it slow " and wait until southern

whites were ready. Kennedy, and many Democrats said " no,

de-segregation is the right thing and it is not contingent upon the

readiness of Southern whites " . While it is almost 50 years later and race

relations are still not where I would like them to be, I truly beleieve

that if we took the approach favored by Eisenhower, we would still be

waiting for de-segregation. Likewise with inclusion, there may be some

segregagted classrooms which in the short term can offer more to the child

with the developemntal disability but, to decide a placement based on this

dooms the child and the promise of what inclusion has to offer all

children.

It is much easier to include children in elementary school, than it is in

the later grades. Part of this is that we are dealing with routines that

have only recently been established or in the case of Kindergartners, have

not yet been established. i am sure than when de-segregation began in the

late 50's and 60's, that it's first successes were seen at the elementary

school level where the routine of segregation had not yet been

established. Like the de-segregation movement of the late 50's early

60's, Inclusion is very much in it's infancy and we have as of yet

scratched the surface of how to best facilitate inclusion including, the

inclusion of older children. I do believe that as we gain success in

the elementary grades these successes and a commitment to inclusion will

follow these children as they transition onwards.

take Care,

Kent

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 9/4/00 9:05:43 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

rdill@... writes:

<< I think that, in spite of IDEA's

pronouncements', we need to focus on the details of what is available

and possible under real INDIVIDUAL EDUCATION PLANS and not fall to

slogans. What works varies depending upon many variables.>>

IDEA is what allows an individual education for our children, and allows us

the possibility of a real education, not token babysitting that went on

before and still goes on in many locations. It gives us the right to try

variables until we find a successful plan for each child.

<< Perhaps the

most important are the child, the parent(s), and the school

environment. There isn't a simple unique answer.>>

How true, what works for one child is not necessarily the best education for

another.

<< Inclusion in the classroom is appropriate ONLY if the quality of

education (for all) is not significantly compromised. This does happen,

but is it common? >>

I wonder what is more common, compromised education thru inclusion or no

education thru segregation?

<< By high school, the academics of most with DS are

far separated from their age appropriate peers. This does not call for

separation socially, but it often means that the best education

environment is not the inclusive classroom.>>

And I would totally disagree. Most kids are separated because of habit,

because of ignorance, because of fear of change or effort to educate any

other way. That doesn't make it the best education, just makes it an

accepted mode of practice. And I disagree that separation does not occur

socially. It most certainly does. I see it every day for some children, not

just those with DS.

<< On the other hand, I feel that she got

close to ooptimum public education. She never was in an inclusive home

room, but she got a 1:4 to 1:6 staf:student ratio always.>>

Good for her, be happy she did not receive her education in the segregated

classes here. Doesn't matter what the teacher/aide to student ratio is when

they are watching old reruns of the Twilight Zone, does it? Or maybe you can

figure out how that was tied into the students IEP goals and the education

value of watching the same TV show three times in one week?

<< Our children/adults have deficits. I wish it weren't so, but

'inclusion' won't fix that. We can thrust them up against the regular

population to teach the regular population about them. That can cause

friendship, sympathy, or ugly disdain ... or even worse. We have to

look very careful at acceptance to see if it is sympathy or hidden

disdain. >>

I would, again, as I have in the past, point out that inclusion is not an

attempt to " fix " children but give the the maximum opportunty to receive a

meaningful education and to be part of their school community. I am thrilled

that VA now has standards that students must pass, that teachers ( special ed

ones too) will be held more accountable for the curriculum they must teach

and that there will be real measure to what our kids are taught.

<<Among parents of young adults, there seems to have been a diminishing of

aim for many (including us). The idea that our child might teach

doctors by becoming one of them has past. The idea of their living a

'normal' life, getting married and perhaps even raising children has

been tested and disarded. Most of us have given up on driving and the

level of freedom it brings to their NDA peers. The idea of jobs and

careers (an are still needing a lot of work) has diminished, although it

isn't gone. >>

What I like about the philosophy of inclusion is the practice of acceptance

regardless of your ability or accomplishments. You do not have to " earn "

your way into your community, you are recognized for your value as a person.

I think that makes " dream adjustments " much easier when necessary. And then,

with an individualized perception, what dream doesn't come true for one child

shouldn't dampen those of another.

Cheryl in VA

[Guest guest]

Dear Kent Rick and all others following this thread!

My name is Xanthe and I have been far less than a lurker lately. Mostly I

hit delete as I am so busy but this discussion is one I am finding more and

more that I need to be involved in. Once again I need the versatility of

this list and its support in ideas and constructive opinions in the issues

that face our children.

Ok enough of that so what's my reason for posting??

Recently I have begun the process of looking into childcare, daycare,

pre-school and primary school for my daughter Aili who is 2.5. The waiting

lists for the good centres and schools are phenomenal and I am wishing that

I had done this all sooner.

I agree with Kent in that inclusion as early as possible is often the best

solution. Aili learns more from other kids her own age than anybody else.

Being a single mother with only one child she does not get much chance to be

with other children. She has a very active imagination and is very good at

making up her own play but she is getting bored and restless. She's like a

sponge at the moment and so ready for the routine and stimulation that

daycare will bring. I know that now is the time to start the ball rolling.

If I wait too long this magic chance will be lost.

I did what all parents with any child would do, I looked into educational

day care programs. I did a lot of and reading. I finally chose the place

where I thought would suit her individual personality. My naivety led me to

believe that I would not face any resistance. I did not believe that placing

Aili would be any different to any other child!

Firstly in Australia inclusion is very much supported by government

programs. Full time one on one teachers are funded and provided for as

early as the day care program. This will mean that in day care Aili would

have her own teacher to help her fit into and understand the routine of the

school environment. I think this is great as if at this early stage she can

understand and hold her own in that environment it will make the later years

so very much easier for everybody and especially Aili.

Keeping this in mind I saw no reason why I should face resistance and my

first experience with daycare was a huge slap in the face. With all the

funding and support as well as my own enthusiasm to do what ever it took, I

was avoided, treated appallingly and very unprofessionally. Most of all, in

many cases I was treated very differently from other parents inquiring. I

soon learnt that inclusion is very new at this early level. People are

frightened (of what I'm not sure??!!), they draw upon misconceptions to make

decisions about my daughter without even spending any time with her. I was

devastated!! This first day care mucked me around for three months. Every

time the director would come up with a " problem " I would find a solution,

then she would quickly find another problem! No matter how many solutions I

found there was always another problem. She would never out and out say no

as she new this was discrimination but boy did she make my life difficult.

Then when she had run out of problems 3 months down the track she told me

that there were no places available. The place Aili was supposed to take was

not going to be forthcoming. When I asked her if there were ANY other spaces

she would not answer she only said that the place that was for Aili was not

available. In hindsight she had made up her mind very early on and nothing

was going to change her mind. Finally I lost my rag and after enlisting some

professional help I moved on to the next day care. Mostly they are OK but I

can now spot the ones who are afraid from the ones who aren't. It is amazing

how many people in this environment are really just ignorant and frightened.

I didn't expect it and it still shocks me. It is worth getting help from

people with experience and a little power.

The discrimination laws in Australia are very strong. This is good on paper

and necessary but it doesn't stop the discrimination. I have found that

people now cannot say no and instead will avoid me or make the process very

inconvenient for me. The best thing about getting help from professional

groups or government groups is that they are very good at handling people.

They understand the fears and do everything in there power to overcome them

in a rational and unemotional way. This saves me a lot of personal heart

break and agony (and believe me it is personally devastating), it also saves

others from being frightened even further by my reactions to there fears.

I think I finally have this licked! I have found a wonderful daycare

pre-school program and the centre is very positive towards Aili. Aili is

very lucky in that she is physically strong and healthy and so does not

experience fear in terms the extra care needed in those areas. This makes

people generally more open to her. I know however that in Australia there is

alot in place to help with any situation that occurs. Aili's development

level is very close to her age group in many aspects. Inclusion at this

early stage could make an enormous difference to her overall development.

Please if anyone has any experiences they would like to share with me or any

helpful tips then I would be only to happy to listen!!

Much love to you all

Xanthe (Aili's Mum)

Re: Inclusion

Hi Rick!

I think you bring up some very good points. Ultimately, a child's

education must be individualized to meet their needs and I do believe that

some instruction may be able to better occur in a pull-out environment.

While I am an advocate for inclusion for every child, I am not an advocate

of full-inclusion for every child. Each child's placement must be based

on the needs of the specific child. Currently, the research strongly

suggests that if you have two exellent educational placements one a

segregated placement and the other and inclusive palcement, the child with

the developmental disability will achieve more both edicationally and

socially, in the inclusive placement.

Personally, given the significance of his delays, I know that inclusion

will become significantly more difficult with Ben as he gets older and

that some instruction will occur best in a pull-out environment. There

are of course options such as parallel instruction. As difficult as

inclusion may become, given the significant benefits which it has to offer

both Ben and his non-disabled peers, to have Ben in a totally segregared

environment will never be an option.

There are many parallels between the move to de-segregate schools in the

late 50's and early 60's and the inclusion movement in the 90's and 00's.

One of the biggest question is " How " ? As you remember, Eisenhower and

the many Republicans wanted to " take it slow " and wait until southern

whites were ready. Kennedy, and many Democrats said " no,

de-segregation is the right thing and it is not contingent upon the

readiness of Southern whites " . While it is almost 50 years later and race

relations are still not where I would like them to be, I truly beleieve

that if we took the approach favored by Eisenhower, we would still be

waiting for de-segregation. Likewise with inclusion, there may be some

segregagted classrooms which in the short term can offer more to the child

with the developemntal disability but, to decide a placement based on this

dooms the child and the promise of what inclusion has to offer all

children.

It is much easier to include children in elementary school, than it is in

the later grades. Part of this is that we are dealing with routines that

have only recently been established or in the case of Kindergartners, have

not yet been established. i am sure than when de-segregation began in the

late 50's and 60's, that it's first successes were seen at the elementary

school level where the routine of segregation had not yet been

established. Like the de-segregation movement of the late 50's early

60's, Inclusion is very much in it's infancy and we have as of yet

scratched the surface of how to best facilitate inclusion including, the

inclusion of older children. I do believe that as we gain success in

the elementary grades these successes and a commitment to inclusion will

follow these children as they transition onwards.

take Care,

Kent

[Guest guest]

Dear ,

I agreed with so much of what you said but mostly about the enthusiasm of

newer parents. I am one of those. I feel that my naivety and lack of limits

makes me invaluable not only to Aili but also to others who thrive on my

enthusiasm and strength just not to bloody listen to the " but " ? In other

ways it has been hard also. The higher your hopes and ideals the further

there is to fall.....but.....I hope I never adjust those ideals for fear of

the falls that sometimes come.

I believe that there is NO limit for Aili apart from the expectations of

those around her. And rather than Aili having the disability I think it is

the rest of us that have the disability in not being able to understand how

she learns and communicates best. I believe those bridges will shorten if we

have the courage to listen to our children and not to someone else's idea of

our children, regardless of their professional status. I listen very

carefully to what every one has to say and I hopefully make an informed

opinion about what I think will work. Finally before implementing it I check

with Aili to see if what I have learnt is in fact what is best, alot of the

time it isn't, so I look at her and I learn and I do as she tells me,

figuratively speaking!!

I will add to this that being reactionary is NOT the way to go. There is a

compassionate way to deal with ignorance and fear. We are all guilty of

putting people into neat little categorised boxes in some way or another. I

don't let people put Aili into a box but I also don't antagonise them or

hurt them, unless severely provoked of course!! Strength and compassion

combined I hope will take myself and Aili a long way!!

Much love,

Xanthe

Re: Inclusion

Ok Rick, I can not keep quiet on this one..lol. As always, I respect our

differences of opinions.

Our children/adults have deficits. I wish it weren't so, but

'inclusion' won't fix that. We can thrust them up against the regular

population to teach the regular population about them. That can cause

friendship, sympathy, or ugly disdain ... or even worse. We have to

look very careful at acceptance to see if it is sympathy or hidden

disdain.

Rick, this doesn't just pertain to disabled children but other children as

well.

I have to encourage parents of cwds to go out into the world and meet as

many adults with down syndrome as they can. This will give them at

least a measure of what is the scope of possibilities for their kids.

Parents can do the same with their NDA kids as well. Each individual child

is unique and each child is special, with and without disabilities.

Yes, I expect and hope that some of the cwds growing up today will far

out achieve my own young adult. Your child will be different, but you

can begin to set some bounds on your expectations.

Rick, this comes with time as being a parent. I don't think newer parents

need to set boundries. They will come as their child gets older.

Meanwhile,

we must support parents no matter what age their child is. I may get flamed

for this as well...but...I think new parents go through a stage where they

have this enourmous energy to make changes happen. The truth is, they do

for

many issues that effect our children. I would never want to cap that

enthusiasm and hope on anyone. As our children get older and we get to know

them better, our ideals, expectations, dreams, goals, etc. change. While

many kids with DS have been successfully included in high school, most

parents realize that the I in IDEA stands for individualized. Only time

will

tell what placement our children will be in later on.

I also haven't talked about 'resource rooms' because I have

little experience with them. I feel that they must be a little like the

'study halls' of my era, which were mostly poorly spent time with

distracting things going on.

NO, NO, NO!! Resource rooms are where a child gets more individualized

instruction. goes to resource for reading. The other kids in his

class have a different curriculum but 's is tailored to meet HIS

needs. His special ed teacher is in the resource room working with him on

reading, language and even math. Her techniques may be different than his

regular teacher uses. Her materials are different. He goes on his pace,

which has surprised me to say the least.

Rick, I value the friendships has with his NDA peers. I also hope

and pray that he will have a friend move into this area who is his age and

also has DS. It's a balance..finding what is best for " my " child. I do

know

that the community is a valuable part of his life, from the little kids he

knows from school and daycare to the parents of these children and the

support staff in his life.

[Guest guest]

I could use some ideas for 6th grade inclusion!

Jackie, Mom to 12ds

[Guest guest]

-----Original Message-----

From: Xanthe Grivas [mailto:xanth@...]

<<It is amazing

how many people in this environment are really just ignorant and frightened.

I didn't expect it and it still shocks me.>>

Welcome to the club, Xanthe. ;o) We have been parenting Jess for 11 years

and it still shocks me sometimes too. I guess there's just a whole lot more

ignorance out there than I ever suspected. Sounds like you are learning to

advocate effectively and are committed to continuing to do so. That will

make a big difference, so hang in there no matter how much ignorance you

encounter.

Judi

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 09/05/2000 7:58:17 PM US Mountain Standard Time,

rdill@... writes:

<< What about

regular kid soccer? >>

You know, you WOULD think this would be a perfect place for inclusion.. but

remember my hassle with Little League? There are no laws to protect our

children from being excluded there. As in 4H. We switched 4H clubs because

the one we had been in with our older children did not welcome Mav when it

came time to participate.

School is the perfect place for inclusion because the schools have no legal

rights to exclude and they are learning that.

Most children make friends at school. THEN they play sports or 4H or Girl

Scouts with them. But they already know each other from the classroom.

I agree that school doesn't have to be the ONLY place for inclusion...but it

sure is an important place.

[Guest guest]

Again I find myself agreeing with Cheryl with regard to this subject.

Inclusion does not legally have to benefit ALL, just the child with the IEP.

It is very fortunate, however, that it does tend to benefit all. Many

students have an extra adult to help in their classroom because a child is

included. Many of the adaptations and modifications used for kids with

disabilities can work with any child. ative and group learning

techniques can also benefit every child.

You are fortunate, Rick, that Jan received the quality education that

she did. You must remember that you are in the minority. The sped classes

here in Hawaii have just come under fire for abuse of the students.

Teachers have used soap in the children's mouths, have tied them to ropes

and marched them around in the hot sun, have placed them in boxes and

actually tied them to trees. The kids are lucky if they ever learn

anything. They have no textbooks. (they don't even have texts for the

typical kids). They are sometimes relegated to portable classrooms while

their typical peers are in air conditioned learning environments.

We all know that you don't like inclusion. You have made that clear.

If it is done correctly, it has been proven successful. You can defend

segregation, but that very defense makes it difficult for those of us who

want inclusion. Inclusion will make it easier on all those suffering

siblings we've been talking about lately. I had a brother with AIDS, so I

know about having someone who could embarrass you. I didn't care though. I

adored him and thought everyone else who wouldn't come around him had the

problem.

Elaine

Cheryl writes: IDEA is what allows an individual education for our

children, and allows us

> the possibility of a real education, not token babysitting that went on

> before and still goes on in many locations. It gives us the right to try

> variables until we find a successful plan for each child.

>

Rick writes:

> << Inclusion in the classroom is appropriate ONLY if the quality of

> education (for all) is not significantly compromised. This does happen,

> but is it common? >>

>

> I wonder what is more common, compromised education thru inclusion or no

> education thru segregation?

>

> << By high school, the academics of most with DS are

> far separated from their age appropriate peers. This does not call for

> separation socially, but it often means that the best education

> environment is not the inclusive classroom.>>

>

> And I would totally disagree. Most kids are separated because of habit,

> because of ignorance, because of fear of change or effort to educate any

> other way. That doesn't make it the best education, just makes it an

> accepted mode of practice. And I disagree that separation does not occur

> socially. It most certainly does. I see it every day for some children,

not

> just those with DS.

>

> << On the other hand, I feel that she got

> close to ooptimum public education. She never was in an inclusive home

> room, but she got a 1:4 to 1:6 staf:student ratio always.>>

>

> Good for her, be happy she did not receive her education in the segregated

> classes here. Doesn't matter what the teacher/aide to student ratio is

when

> they are watching old reruns of the Twilight Zone, does it? Or maybe you

can

> figure out how that was tied into the students IEP goals and the education

> value of watching the same TV show three times in one week?

>

> << Our children/adults have deficits. I wish it weren't so, but

> 'inclusion' won't fix that. We can thrust them up against the regular

> population to teach the regular population about them. That can cause

> friendship, sympathy, or ugly disdain ... or even worse. We have to

> look very careful at acceptance to see if it is sympathy or hidden

> disdain. >>

>

> I would, again, as I have in the past, point out that inclusion is not an

> attempt to " fix " children but give the the maximum opportunty to receive a

> meaningful education and to be part of their school community. I am

thrilled

> that VA now has standards that students must pass, that teachers ( special

ed

> ones too) will be held more accountable for the curriculum they must teach

> and that there will be real measure to what our kids are taught.

>

>

> <<Among parents of young adults, there seems to have been a diminishing

of

> aim for many (including us). The idea that our child might teach

> doctors by becoming one of them has past. The idea of their living a

> 'normal' life, getting married and perhaps even raising children has

> been tested and disarded. Most of us have given up on driving and the

> level of freedom it brings to their NDA peers. The idea of jobs and

> careers (an are still needing a lot of work) has diminished, although it

> isn't gone. >>

>

> What I like about the philosophy of inclusion is the practice of

acceptance

> regardless of your ability or accomplishments. You do not have to " earn "

> your way into your community, you are recognized for your value as a

person.

> I think that makes " dream adjustments " much easier when necessary. And

then,

> with an individualized perception, what dream doesn't come true for one

child

> shouldn't dampen those of another.

>

> Cheryl in VA

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

is included in 7th grade social studies, science, PE, etc. He is

pulled-out for reading and math. He was also in 4 hours out of 6 in the 6th

grade. Every hands-on experiment, current events, computer project, he must

do. I told them to choose one thing or more out of every unit that they

feel should know and modify them for him. The social studies

teachers have done an excellent job. I have to stay on the science teachers

a little but he is learning in their classrooms. also is getting so

much better at sports because he is included for PE. He does Special

Olympics on weekends and is better at basketball and soccer because of his

regular ed. PE. The kids will come over here to ask him to come play ball

with them. They are kind to him and make an effort to say hello when they

see him.

Elaine

Re: Inclusion

>

> I could use some ideas for 6th grade inclusion!

>

> Jackie, Mom to 12ds

>

>

[Guest guest]

> Teachers have used soap in the children's mouths, have tied them to ropes

> and marched them around in the hot sun, have placed them in boxes and

> actually tied them to trees. The kids are lucky if they ever learn

> anything. They have no textbooks. (they don't even have texts for the

> typical kids). They are sometimes relegated to portable classrooms while

> their typical peers are in air conditioned learning environments.

Ohmigod, Elaine! And I thought schools in IL were bad. Doesn't anyone

do anything? I mean, do the administrators of these schools get

punished?

Sue (still naive as to the ways of the world) mom to Kate 10 and Karrie

4 w/ds

[Guest guest]

Hi Rick!

Two things. 1) Do you really think you were flamed?????? and 2) I would

agree that extracurricular activities are a valuable place for inclusion

to oocur but, in addition to the educational placement. With regard to

Ben, I would love for hime to be able to participate in soccer (especially

since I coach soccer) or cub scouts but the truth of the matter is that

his delays are just too significant for him to be able to participate in

any meaningful way. Thus for Ben (and for his parents), inclusion in the

educational setting is a very important venue.

take care,

Kent

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 9/5/00 10:58:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

rdill@... writes:

<< I'm far too stressed to answer all the flames, but appreciate the

roughly equal number of (often private) support notes.>>

<< I simply do not

regard the classroom as the chief place for inclusion although it can be

just fine. Have you tried the mall? Have you tried giving your child

independence in the mall? What about Girl Scouts or 4-H? What about

regular kid soccer? What about Special Olympics (and association with

others like themselves)? When is acceptance patronizing and when is it

as an 'equal'? It is not an easy question. There is a whole lot more

to life than the classroom. >>

I doubt if most of the proponents of inclusion only practice the philosophy

of inclusion in school. For our family, inclusion began in places other than

school, we just continued it there when our child began school.

<<Education delivery is complex. What works for one is bad for another.

Sped classroom teaching does NOT mean no education.>>

Given the examples of the sped classrooms given on this list, it does seem

that we will have to disagree on that statement.

<<Tomorrow Jan is the object of Grand Rounds in infectious disease at

Yale.>>

Here's hoping something positive for Jan comes out of being examined by so

many.

Have they already ruled out lupus?

<<BTW, Jan had an IEP (a true individual education program) before IDEA.

IDEA does cement the right to it. >>

IDEA is 25 years old now, it covered everyone who has been in school during

that time frame.

Cheryl in VA

[Guest guest]

Inclusion is not untested Rick and it is proven to be successful if done

correctly. There are tons of studies. One was done in 1975 by a team named

Ispa and Matz. They studied preschoolers and found that in 9 months, the

kids scored an entire standard deviation (15 points) higher on Standardized

IQ tests. The typical kids increased 5 points. The social skills tests had

even more impressive results. Dr. Lou Brown and Dr. Villa (of

Wisconsin and Vermont respectively) have researched inclusion. You can tell

which adults were included if you go to the conventions. They can read well

and have incredible social skills. I hope you are not being flamed. I

simply disagree with you. You know what's best for Jan, but not for my son.

Elaine

Inclusion

>

> I'm far too stressed to answer all the flames, but appreciate the

> roughly equal number of (often private) support notes. I simply do not

> regard the classroom as the chief place for inclusion although it can be

> just fine. Have you tried the mall? Have you tried giving your child

> independence in the mall? What about Girl Scouts or 4-H? What about

> regular kid soccer? What about Special Olympics (and association with

> others like themselves)? When is acceptance patronizing and when is it

> as an 'equal'? It is not an easy question. There is a whole lot more

> to life than the classroom.

>

> Education delivery is complex. What works for one is bad for another.

> Sped classroom teaching does NOT mean no education.

>

> Tomorrow Jan is the object of Grand Rounds in infectious disease at

> Yale. She's been in the hospital going on seven weeks and the

> underlying cause is still indeterminate. It looks like a one in 100,000

> autoimmune problem that is rare enough that the treatments are poorly

> tested (something like some treatments for DS). It is not currently

> associated with DS, but the cause is simply unknown and it is

> interesting that some with DS fall prey to other autoimmune diseases.

>

> Re inclusion, we all will have to wait fifteen years or so for this all

> to play out in terms of personal development and adult outcomes. For

> those following any course, I wish you the best .. but this is an

> untested educational treatment no matter how you do it.

>

> BTW, Jan had an IEP (a true individual education program) before IDEA.

> IDEA does cement the right to it.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi,

I have just uploaded Kent's paper on Inclusion to egroups. You can view it

at:

/Inclusion

You will need Adobe Acrobat Reader to view it. If you don't have it, you

can download it at:

http://www.adobe.com/products/acrobat/readstep2.html

Take Care,

Nora

*********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********

On 11/30/00 at 5:33 PM Kent Moreno wrote:

>Hi!

>

>I have just finished writing a very long paper on inclusion. Right

>now, my brain is so fried I feel like I'm experiencing life through a

>3 inch barrier of pink fiberglass insulation.

>

>The paper is a Overview of Inclusion looking at Inclusion as an

>issue of Civil Rights and an Issue of Educational Efficacy. The

>paper has a good synthesis of the research on inclusion and

>focuses on effects for students w/ DD, the non-disabled peers

>and teachers.

>

>Anyway, I'm going to convert the file to an Adobe acrobat file so it

>will be readable cross platform and very small (under 20 k). I'm

>then going to break the rules and attach it to an email to the

>group. Folks who are interested can keep it. Those who are not

>can trash it. :-)

>

>

>Take Care,

>

>

>Kent

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 2/7/01 6:52:36 AM Central Standard Time, c1ndysue1@...

writes:

<<

I was talking in the chat last night and stated a few times that attitude

of

the school makes a huge difference. If the school administrators were

educated in the 70's themselves, then they are stuck with the old mindset

for

the most part. Todays teachers and administrators have been better educated

to meet the needs of all students. Luckily those old educators are retiring.

>>

I have wanted to post the mission statement from my foster son's school for

some time now and I've finally gotten around to it. His school is an

elementary school that is very pro-inclusion.

" Janet Berry Elemenary School strives to provide all students with their

inalienable right to a quality of life which inspires a sense of personal

confidence, dignity and worth. We will maintain a nurturing environment by

drawing all students into the total school community as active, valued

participants. Quality education depends on the creativity of staff and

families and the support of admininstration, resulting in each person

achieving to his/her fullest potential. "

This is on the front page of the school newsletter that we get each month.

Karyn

[Guest guest]

This is absolutely okay for an aide to do. I have never

asked for a personal aide to be with all day. When

she was 4 she was in a preschool (one for Dev. Del 3

days a week and regular 2 days a week, both had aides

for the classroom and also had small class size). When

she entered kindergarten, the classroom had a bathroom

in the classroom. After she left school during recess

that year and the police brought her back, I started

having it put in her IEP that she was not to travel

around school unescorted, and that an aide would

accompany her when she goes from one area to another

(only if going alone. If she goes with her class, she

is okay). Our school has 3 buildings plus portables.

The aide meets her every morning at carpool and walks

with her to class. As she has gotten older and no longer

is running away (knock on wood), the aide may not walk

her all the way to her class, but does stay where she

can see her.

Yes it is completely reasonable to ask for this,

especially at his age. And I would definitely have it

written in the IEP.

--

Sharon, Mom to (9, DS) and (5)

> Almost forgot...Had a meeting for inlcusion for next year. It went

> ok, but I couldn't find everything I wanted to take because of the

> moving mess...

>

> I have a question, though. I think Austin needs an aid to be with

> him during the day, or at least part of it. He is only 4, but the

> bus will drop him off outside of the school, and he is expected to go

> in, up 2 flights of stairs and into the classroom by himself. THere

> are 15 kids, and 2 teachers, and the teachers stay in the room in the

> morning. They also let the kids go into the bathroom by themselves,

> and Austin sometimes needs help, and always needs kept out of the

> water! Is it unreasonable for me to ask for an aid? I mean, to me 4

> is a little young to expect to go that far on his own. Is this

> acceptable for an aid to do, anyway? HELP!!!

>

>

> Beth, mommy to Austin, and Dakota

>

>

> Please edit posts when replying!

>

>

[Guest guest]

Totally acceptable. My son is 13 - he has had an aide since he was 5 -

his kindergarten aide helped potty train him!! she was wonderful we

were a great team and I valued her input. At least one of the

teachers should meet him off the bus - i can't imagine they would

expect any of the kids to find thier way alone at first!! Another

pair of hands in the classroom would be helpful to all - if the

school refuses and then has problems in the fall insist on it!! They

can always remove an aide but it would be hard if things din't go

smoothly in the fall and then they had to find someone. Did you tell

the school the things you expect he will need help with?

> Almost forgot...Had a meeting for inlcusion for next year. It went

> ok, but I couldn't find everything I wanted to take because of the

> moving mess...

>

> I have a question, though. I think Austin needs an aid to be with

> him during the day, or at least part of it. He is only 4, but the

> bus will drop him off outside of the school, and he is expected to

go

> in, up 2 flights of stairs and into the classroom by himself.

THere

> are 15 kids, and 2 teachers, and the teachers stay in the room in

the

> morning. They also let the kids go into the bathroom by themselves,

> and Austin sometimes needs help, and always needs kept out of the

> water! Is it unreasonable for me to ask for an aid? I mean, to me

4

> is a little young to expect to go that far on his own. Is this

> acceptable for an aid to do, anyway? HELP!!!

>

>

> Beth, mommy to Austin, and Dakota

[Guest guest]

>

> In-Reply-<192.3cd2dd9.29c40c03@...>

> MIME-Version: 1.0

> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

>

>

> The mom told me one night that even

> > though her daughter tested

> > in the EMR range, she never let them put her in

> > those classes because "

> > people with DS are MR and low on the scale ...

> they

> > belong in TMR classes. "

> > Lest you think this is a backwards mom, she is an

> > instructor in a local

> > college, training nurses.

> >

> > Cheryl in VA

> >

>

> Yes, Cheryl,

>

> I too have encountered the powers at be that said

> your

> child has ds. What are you trying to do? Are you

> doing this for you or for your child? I have been

> teaching for 20 years in spec ed and that is where

> children with ds belong. This is what they can

> handle.

>

> I have to re-evaluate every year what we do. As

> time

> goes on and reg-ed does not do the mods as they

> should, I learn form this list what to ask for and

> look for. I also feel we will need to do some pull

> out for reading and math as some of you do.

>

> I do not think any of us is better or worse for what

> we choose. I do hope that none of us rules

> something

> out before investigating it even if the powers of

> the

> schools think we are crazy. I usually tell them I

> have lived with my daughter for 8 years. I know

> what

> her interest are, how she learns, and am constantly

> surprised of what she will do when given the chance!

>

> I also know that if hte school does not put a vested

> interest in doing inclusion at least 80% right, then

> I

> do waste my childs time and education. So I must

> look

> hard and long at whatever I ask for and stay on top

> of

> it.

>

>

> mom to Bridget 8 ds

>

> __________________________________________________

>