Re: Handing 5-year old sibling's jealousy

May 7, 2006

Hi!

My daughter (who's older than my son with PDD by 2.7

years - she's also typical), is VERY jealous of him:

" you let HIM do this...and you don't let me! " It's

hard. But here's some things that work for her:

- I explain things to her on her level, and in a " need

to know way " . For example, she doesn't know what

" pragmatics " and " echoleilia " are, but she can be told

that " Max has an 'issue', and learns differently. He

doesn't understand things quite as well as you can " .

Only recently have I explained that he has " autism " .

Before now (she's almost 9), I don't think she

would've understood.

- It also takes reminding: patiently repeating over

and over the things she gets that he doesn't, like

going over to people's houses alone for playdates (I

can drop her off with a mom I know well, but not him).

Also, she gets an allowance (or reward system), and he

doesn't. She also gets horseback riding (something

extra that he doesn't).

It takes reminding, because she doesn't exactly

forget, but the feeling of being left out (whether

it's true or not) takes over.

- I also explain to her about God making Max that way.

Even if you're not too religious, you can say that " he

was made this way " , and leave out the " Who " . This

seems to help Zoë a lot.

These things certainly don't make it go away, but they

help Zoë. Hope they help you, too. I know it's hard.

Sometimes, she's harder than Max, and Max is the one

with PDD!

- Adrienne from Boston

__________________________________________________

May 7, 2006

Thank you so much for this, Adrienne, I really really appreciate it, it helps.

I think I can use God in the story too.

Adrienne Lehmann <adriennerob@...> wrote:

Hi!

My daughter (who's older than my son with PDD by 2.7

years - she's also typical), is VERY jealous of him:

" you let HIM do this...and you don't let me! " It's

hard. But here's some things that work for her:

- I explain things to her on her level, and in a " need

to know way " . For example, she doesn't know what

" pragmatics " and " echoleilia " are, but she can be told

that " Max has an 'issue', and learns differently. He

doesn't understand things quite as well as you can " .

Only recently have I explained that he has " autism " .

Before now (she's almost 9), I don't think she

would've understood.

- It also takes reminding: patiently repeating over

and over the things she gets that he doesn't, like

going over to people's houses alone for playdates (I

can drop her off with a mom I know well, but not him).

Also, she gets an allowance (or reward system), and he

doesn't. She also gets horseback riding (something

extra that he doesn't).

It takes reminding, because she doesn't exactly

forget, but the feeling of being left out (whether

it's true or not) takes over.

- I also explain to her about God making Max that way.

Even if you're not too religious, you can say that " he

was made this way " , and leave out the " Who " . This

seems to help Zoë a lot.

These things certainly don't make it go away, but they

help Zoë. Hope they help you, too. I know it's hard.

Sometimes, she's harder than Max, and Max is the one

with PDD!

- Adrienne from Boston

__________________________________________________

May 8, 2006

This is tough. And let me say, as a parent, you can

only do so much. It is hard " juggling " the aspie vs.

the NT.

My daughter is 2 years younger than my son, who has

asperger's. On top of that, I was doing in-home

daycare, so she had to share me with all the other

kids that I kept. I didn't really notice what an

impact it had on her until first-grade. (My son was

diagnosed with asperger's then.) Her teacher had been

concerned about her need to be " perfect " . So we

proceeded to work very hard on that.

I decided that she needed somethings that she could

claim as " hers " outside of her brother and his

disorder. I enrolled her in the local Brownie (girl

scout) troop. That way she could go and be with other

girls her age and feel " normal " . She also started on

our puppet ministry team at church so she had that as

" hers " . And then children's choir. I believe this

helped her feel important as we gave her time to go

places and do her own thing.

Now that she's 11, we still have issues about what her

brother gets to do and she doesn't. She is the middle

child now and she'll tell you that the middle child is

" cursed " . I rely on her because she is the more mature

and more capable of the kids. In many ways, she is

" older " than her brother. She is definitely more

mature than her brother and it's hard because of her

age, that I can't allow her to do the things I know

full well that she is capable of, but not old enough

to do yet.

She is into not knowing why she can't so things her

brother does. She isn't old enough to stay up until

his bedtime. (Plus she has to get up way earlier than

him). So, she just sees him as getting to do things

that she can't. She doesn't understand the age

difference issue.

Sorry for my rambling, but I'm writing this inbetween

putting kids on buses this morning. That's what we

did. We gave Casey things that she could call

" hers " -something that her brother didn't do and only

she did. She has enjoyed the time away to be herself.

Now she's just acting like a normal pre-teen and

wanting to be as old as her brother and allowed to do

what he wants.

I try not to rely on her too much, but it's hard not

to when she is so much more mature for her age. And I

can't ask my son to do a lot of the things I can her

because of his OCD issues and sometimes his

asperger's, but mainly the OCD. She doesn't get that.

But she tries. Sometimes I don't think she believes me

when I explain. I try and keep " chores " even as much

as I can. But I don't always get it right. I don't

mean to make her work harder. It's just that she can

do things where he can't.

Hope this helps.

Melinda

Mom to , 13, AS, ADHD, OCD

Casey, 11, (going on 15!)

, 5, speech delay and wants to be 11!

Baby on the way-praying it's a boy! LOL!

May 8, 2006

Thank you so much for rambling Melinda.. below I'm rambling too...

I have done a pretty good job of making sure that my NT has " her " stuff, I

think, and she gets playdates practically every day -- she's doing great.

The problem is that she makes things difficult for her brother. It goes so

deep. She loves him and wants to play with him all the time, but when he's

spacy or unresponsive, she can't stop herself from attacking him, grabbing his

toys, messing up what productive thing he's finally doing (he sits down to draw

and she sasy " can I have that? " about every marker he picks up -- or she joins a

game I'm playing with him (even if she's with someone else) and makes it so hard

for him to continue that the game is ruined. It's so constant that I end up

yelling at her to leave him alone, and then she is crestfallen, because I'm mad

at her and my Aspie doesn't want to play, and because she doesn't really know

what she's doing -- she doesn't understand it herself.

Other things are developing -- she's being mean to him in front of her

friends, partly b/c she has friends who are mean to their siblings, partly b/c

she's embarrassed and wants to be cool. Or she jumps on him when he meets her

friends, sort of to cover up any akward moment. Meanwhile he is less and less

inclined to make an effort when he meets her friends because of this.

I can't seem to get it through to her how much harder all this makes his life.

Do I just grit my teeth, be as patient as possible, and wait until she can

understand? Or maybe find a good family therapist who can explain it to both

kids?

Hall Melinda <mlndhall@...> wrote:

This is tough. And let me say, as a parent, you can

only do so much. It is hard " juggling " the aspie vs.

the NT.

My daughter is 2 years younger than my son, who has

asperger's. On top of that, I was doing in-home

daycare, so she had to share me with all the other

kids that I kept. I didn't really notice what an

impact it had on her until first-grade. (My son was

diagnosed with asperger's then.) Her teacher had been

concerned about her need to be " perfect " . So we

proceeded to work very hard on that.

I decided that she needed somethings that she could

claim as " hers " outside of her brother and his

disorder. I enrolled her in the local Brownie (girl

scout) troop. That way she could go and be with other

girls her age and feel " normal " . She also started on

our puppet ministry team at church so she had that as

" hers " . And then children's choir. I believe this

helped her feel important as we gave her time to go

places and do her own thing.

Now that she's 11, we still have issues about what her

brother gets to do and she doesn't. She is the middle

child now and she'll tell you that the middle child is

" cursed " . I rely on her because she is the more mature

and more capable of the kids. In many ways, she is

" older " than her brother. She is definitely more

mature than her brother and it's hard because of her

age, that I can't allow her to do the things I know

full well that she is capable of, but not old enough

to do yet.

She is into not knowing why she can't so things her

brother does. She isn't old enough to stay up until

his bedtime. (Plus she has to get up way earlier than

him). So, she just sees him as getting to do things

that she can't. She doesn't understand the age

difference issue.

Sorry for my rambling, but I'm writing this inbetween

putting kids on buses this morning. That's what we

did. We gave Casey things that she could call

" hers " -something that her brother didn't do and only

she did. She has enjoyed the time away to be herself.

Now she's just acting like a normal pre-teen and

wanting to be as old as her brother and allowed to do

what he wants.

I try not to rely on her too much, but it's hard not

to when she is so much more mature for her age. And I

can't ask my son to do a lot of the things I can her

because of his OCD issues and sometimes his

asperger's, but mainly the OCD. She doesn't get that.

But she tries. Sometimes I don't think she believes me

when I explain. I try and keep " chores " even as much

as I can. But I don't always get it right. I don't

mean to make her work harder. It's just that she can

do things where he can't.

Hope this helps.

Melinda

Mom to , 13, AS, ADHD, OCD

Casey, 11, (going on 15!)

, 5, speech delay and wants to be 11!

Baby on the way-praying it's a boy! LOL!

May 8, 2006

--- on <cathrob@...> wrote:

> great.

>

> The problem is that she makes things difficult for

> her brother. It goes so deep.

> I can't seem to get it through to her how much

> harder all this makes his life. Do I just grit my

> teeth, be as patient as possible, and wait until she

> can understand? Or maybe find a good family

> therapist who can explain it to both kids?

It is hard since she is so young. Social stories with

her would be a good idea. I kept asking Casey how she

would feel if someone treated her that way, etc. She

is now 11 and it's still hard for her sometimes to

believe that it has to do with the asperger's. She

comes home now from school, though, and will tell me

of a student in her class or somewhere that acts like

her brother.... so she assumes that child has

asperger's. It's all a learning process. We had to

learn what worked for our aspie's-after we initially

learned what it was we were dealing with-and they have

to learn as well. Just constant reminding.

My 5 year old keeps asking me (she did this morning)

why is " so mean " , or " why does call me

bad names. " I am limited in what I can tell her to

help her understand. I just have to remind her that

has a hard time with not saying bad things,

etc.

Luckily, for her, she's been in pre-school where they

have taught them social skills of " no put downs " and

" use kind words " , etc. And then they've helped them

use words to express how they feel. So she can tell

that he needs to use kind words or " no put

downs " and then she tells him that it makes her sad.

Neither of the girls really understand what is going

on. Casey is seeing more and more how other kids

exhibit similiar behaviors, so now she can see how

can't help how he is behaving. It's still

annoying for her and my 5 year old, , constantly

fights with . They feed off each other and that

is TOTALLY exhausting!

As your daughter gets older she'll start to understand

more. However, her behavior could be her seeing if you

are going to be consistant in dealing with her

behavior so she feels " safe " . Casey went through a

period where she did everything that she knew she

wasn't supposed to. I know it wasn't to get attention,

because we focused on making sure she had our

attention as well. But I believe it was just a period

to make sure mom and dad were going to keep her in

line and not let her get away with things. Once she

figured out that we were not going to let her get away

with the things she knew all too well she was doing

wrong, she settled down back to " normal " .

I know my 5 year old wouldn't understand it if I told

her that had a disorder, or asperger's or

special needs. I just keep telling her that sometimes

he has trouble with whatever he is doing wrong. And we

talk about how it makes her feel and what she thinks

she should do or what we should do together to help

her brother. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

Melinda

May 8, 2006

Hi!

You're welcome! Hope it helps.

Also, Max has a psychologist he sees every week, and

I've spoken to her about Zoë. It's not out of the

ordinary to have a sibling of a child with an ASD to

have " issues " as well, and to see the psychologist

her/himself. For us, it's a " what can we afford "

issue.

Would this be a good idea for your daughter?

Also, Zoë has participated in a study done by a

researcher in Ohio on siblings of kids with ASD's.

This was years ago, so I'm definately not trying to

sell this study! (It was completing surveys, only).

But the gist of this study was that siblings have hard

" issues " dealing with their brother or sister with an

ASD. The siblings definately have things going on in

dealing with this. I'm telling you this so that you

know that you're not alone at all - it's a very common

thing. Also, don't feel guilty! It sounds like you're

trying to do tons, already.

It does get better with age, I think, but I really

wouldn't wait to start explaining things to her.

Explaining things to Zoë really helped/does help a

lot. Even if it doesn't seem like it does at first, in

the long run it does. Also, explaining things in a way

she can understand, and then not engaging her in a

conversation/argument about it. She'll drag you in

(Zoë does), and it seems like she's talking at first,

so you're sucked in, and before you know it, she's

arguing and whining: " But you let him have the ball

and right before that you said that I couldn't have

mine " (rational, linear thought). " You woooon't let

meee gooo outside, but you'll let hiiiim " (kind of

whining, now).

" You NEVER let me have crayons, but HE gets them ALL! "

(OK, very whinny now).

I thought at first that this was " letting her express

herself " and " getting it all out " , but I found that if

I let her and engage her, she wants to argue with me

and wants to escalate the conversation 'til she's

having a great pity party for herself and I'm a raving

maniac. So, I don't ignore her, but I don't engage

her: " I'm sorry you feel that way. I do love you a lot

and I try. " Also, a dose of " counting your blessings " :

going over all of her blessings, and what God (or

whomever/ whatever) is teaching her and the family in

having a sibling with an ASD helps.

Can you tell I think about this too much?? Can you

tell that this is a constant in our house?? I'm sorry

to go on and on - too long!

--- on <cathrob@...> wrote:

> Thank you so much for this, Adrienne, I really

> really appreciate it, it helps. I think I can use

> God in the story too.

>

> Adrienne Lehmann <adriennerob@...> wrote:

> Hi!

>

> My daughter (who's older than my son with PDD by 2.7

> years - she's also typical), is VERY jealous of him:

> " you let HIM do this...and you don't let me! " It's

> hard. But here's some things that work for her:

>

> - I explain things to her on her level, and in a

> " need

> to know way " . For example, she doesn't know what

> " pragmatics " and " echoleilia " are, but she can be

> told

> that " Max has an 'issue', and learns differently. He

> doesn't understand things quite as well as you can " .

> Only recently have I explained that he has " autism " .

> Before now (she's almost 9), I don't think she

> would've understood.

>

> - It also takes reminding: patiently repeating over

> and over the things she gets that he doesn't, like

> going over to people's houses alone for playdates (I

> can drop her off with a mom I know well, but not

> him).

> Also, she gets an allowance (or reward system), and

> he

> doesn't. She also gets horseback riding (something

> extra that he doesn't).

>

> It takes reminding, because she doesn't exactly

> forget, but the feeling of being left out (whether

> it's true or not) takes over.

>

> - I also explain to her about God making Max that

> way.

> Even if you're not too religious, you can say that

> " he

> was made this way " , and leave out the " Who " . This

> seems to help Zoë a lot.

>

> These things certainly don't make it go away, but

> they

> help Zoë. Hope they help you, too. I know it's hard.

> Sometimes, she's harder than Max, and Max is the one

> with PDD!

>

> - Adrienne from Boston

>

> __________________________________________________

>

May 8, 2006

I too struggle with this same issue, but my daughter who gets resentful

is 11, 6 years older than my autistic son. She has seizures and gets

plenty of attention herself, but the seizures and meds themselves change

her personality so she has days where she's great with him, yet days

where she gives me the " WHY does he get ALL the attention? " and one day

she told me she just wanted a 'normal' brother. (The whole 'he has

issues...' thing backfired a long time ago.) It gets so aggravating, and

it does make me feel pulled. She can't get hid in the head and is very

sensitive (physically and personality-wise) so he gets on her nerves

quite easily, and I've had to remind her numerous times not to leave him

out when playing with other kids, or to remember to stick up for her

brother. I've got no real answers, reminding and all the good things

really don't work. I've just found that I need to give her some 'mommy

and me' time when I can, I try for once a week right now, even if it's

just a couple of hours sitting in a little cafe enjoying a pastry and

talking and even just quietly co-existing, reading, etc. Hard to find

the time sometimes but it seems to have the longest lasting effecct.

Adrienne Lehmann wrote:

> Hi!

>

> My daughter (who's older than my son with PDD by 2.7

> years - she's also typical), is VERY jealous of him:

> " you let HIM do this...and you don't let me! " It's

> hard. But here's some things that work for her:

>

> - I explain things to her on her level, and in a " need

> to know way " . For example, she doesn't know what

> " pragmatics " and " echoleilia " are, but she can be told

> that " Max has an 'issue', and learns differently. He

> doesn't understand things quite as well as you can " .

> Only recently have I explained that he has " autism " .

> Before now (she's almost 9), I don't think she

> would've understood.

>

> - It also takes reminding: patiently repeating over

> and over the things she gets that he doesn't, like

> going over to people's houses alone for playdates (I

> can drop her off with a mom I know well, but not him).

> Also, she gets an allowance (or reward system), and he

> doesn't. She also gets horseback riding (something

> extra that he doesn't).

>

> It takes reminding, because she doesn't exactly

> forget, but the feeling of being left out (whether

> it's true or not) takes over.

>

> - I also explain to her about God making Max that way.

> Even if you're not too religious, you can say that " he

> was made this way " , and leave out the " Who " . This

> seems to help Zoë a lot.

>

> These things certainly don't make it go away, but they

> help Zoë. Hope they help you, too. I know it's hard.

> Sometimes, she's harder than Max, and Max is the one

> with PDD!

>

> - Adrienne from Boston

>

May 8, 2006

All I can say is that I totally know how you feel. My NT child is three, she's

two years younger than my son with ASD and already she knows how to push his

buttons. She is also very social and very domineering. Some days I feel as

though I am her worst enemy especially on the days when my son is having a bad

day. It is made worse bythe fact that I know she does the things she does

largely for attention. It is so hard to find the balance! i don't want her to

grow up feeling that she was second in my mind all the time.

Beck

( ) Handing 5-year old sibling's jealousy

Hi everyone,

I just joined, and haven't searched previous postings yet, but I have an

urgent question in case anyone else has any wisdom.

I have a 7-year old son with Asperger's and a 5-year old typical daughter

who is VERY intense, VERY social, and VERY jealous of any attention or special

treatment her brother gets. As a result, he gets very little unless I finally

shame or yell at my 5-year-old. She was born just as my son's symptoms were

surfacing (he was 20 months) and spent her formative first two years watching me

put her down and go after him, so she feels permanently gypped (sp?). I have

guilt towards both of them now b/c I can't seem to organize it so that they each

get what they need. We stopped all the extra therapies that weren't working

last year, and I started a new difficult job this year, and so every day after

school it's just the three of us, exhausted, w/out plans, and me trying to wing

it. My son is in a loving and accepting school situation, but not one that

gives him the extra help he needs to learn better social skills and skills to

engage himself constructively. I don't

schedule play dates for him b/c it is impossible to juggle that and my

daughter too. When I try to plan things both of them will like to do together,

my daugher inevitably makes it such a crazy and chaotic experience for my son

(pestering him, grabbing everything he has, pouting when I praise his work) that

he ends up retreating.

I am at a loss. I know we should have more babysitting or aide help but

haven't been able to find it.

In the meantime, my question is this: at what age do you explain to a

sibling (who loves and still looks up to her brother) his problem and her role

in helping him?

And at what age do you discuss the diagnosis with the affected child?

Any insight/commiseration welcome!

May 8, 2006

exactly! it makes me feel better just knowing you're out there. sounds like

the same situation -- that's how we were two years ago.

Mark son <thejacobsons@...> wrote: All I can say is that I

totally know how you feel. My NT child is three, she's two years younger than

my son with ASD and already she knows how to push his buttons. She is also very

social and very domineering. Some days I feel as though I am her worst enemy

especially on the days when my son is having a bad day. It is made worse bythe

fact that I know she does the things she does largely for attention. It is so

hard to find the balance! i don't want her to grow up feeling that she was

second in my mind all the time.