Re: 17 yr old defiance, or Mothers Who Spoil

[Guest guest]

On 8/11/06, njnorma23 <njnorma23@...> wrote:

>

> My 23 yr old daughter does the EXACT same thing! she has wrecked

> cars, got speeding tickets, defied my rules--you name it. Taking

> away privileges doesn't work--she also seems happy just staying in

> her room and doing nothing.

Having Asperger's or ADHD is no excuse for acting like a spoiled brat.

And if your daughter is TWENTY-THREE years old, she is WAY OVERDUE for

getting the boot. My reccommendation is that you starting attending

Toughlove and Codependent Anonymous support groups. Indeed, her

bratty behavior may be directly related to a self-hatred stemming from

the fact that she is not, at the advanced age of twenty-three, living

on her own and pulling her own weight. Yet she doesn't have the

willpower to leave all the privledges of free room and board. At this

point, a mother has to get tough, no matter how painful, for the sake

of her child's life.

I can't help but wonder if mother's have a blind spot when it comes to

this very crucial issue. I write as someone who endured years and

years of abuse from a much older brother, who was every bit as

" defiant " as your daughter, and whom my mother allowed to live at home

for many years past his eighteenth birthday. My mother too, tried

everything short of the one thing that was appropriate in response to

his selfish behavior -- throwing him out of the house. She later

justified her passivity by saying she simply loved her son too much

(presumably at the expense of my own well-being, peace, and security).

I have a female friend my age who is currently supporting not only her

mother, but her deadbeat younger brother, who has a BA in Design

(which my friend paid for and is now debt for), but who spends all his

time at home playing Final Fantasy video on his computer from morning

till night (or from night till morning). The boy's mother doesn't want

to pressure her little baby (who is 24 years old) " because she loves

him so much, " and my friend feels guilty about putting pressure on her

own mother to be responsible.

So lives are destroyed out of a perverted misinterpretation of

unconditional love.

Rick

[Guest guest]

I just have to comment that, I could never say anything about

someone else unless I understood more of the situation.

WE could all say her daughter is a brat, but we really need to know

more before labeling.

Sorry, just a little tired of people labeling my kids (Not As type

label but brat, spoiled, etc) before finding out what I am going

through.

There may (or may not) be a purpose for her being 23 and maybe you

know her better than I do (well, I don't know her or her daughter at

all:( and maybe mom needs a wake up call (or not~!!)

I hate accusations for me, anyway, without a full understanding.

Being an Aspie, when you said you wonder if mother's have a blind

spot I went cuckoo. Only because I am a mother and saying it that

way makes a sweeping generalization and my husband does that all the

time (he also uses words like,,, you always,,, or they never,,, etc)

So when he makes a generalization I flip out:)

I can see the problems, and I agree that we have to be tough, I just

like to know exactly what is going on before making such blanket

statements about people.

I guess part of me also gets mad because I have had people say " You

just spoil your son, " or " he needs a good spanking " etc. and I know

when I have made mistakes, but I also realize when sometimes things

are they way the are because of a situation, not because I was doing

something wrong. But it is easy to blame mom!!

A lot of men I know have been doing it for years!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Then, on the other hand, there is the family whre they treat there

kids like crap, their kids react, and they wonder why the kids is

being such a brat. My husband can't understand why our youngest son

is so mad at him, refuses to listen to him and has no respect for

him.

Well, guess what, it is exactly how he has been handled by my

husband. He isn't spoiled because he gets really upset with dad, he

hasn't been treated very nicely by dad and dad " gets mad at the drop

of a hat', refuses to listen to him and HasNORESPECT for him... "

Hmmmmm.

Ok, not trying to be confrontational, just noting that sometimes

situations aren't as they appear. Though this situation could be...

but, well, some aren't:)

--- In , " Rick Segreda " <rick.

>

> Having Asperger's or ADHD is no excuse for acting like a spoiled

brat.

> And if your daughter is TWENTY-THREE years old, she is WAY OVERDUE

for

> getting the boot. My reccommendation is that you starting attending

> Toughlove and Codependent Anonymous support groups. Indeed, her

> bratty behavior may be directly related to a self-hatred stemming

from

> the fact that she is not, at the advanced age of twenty-three,

living

> on her own and pulling her own weight. Yet she doesn't have the

> willpower to leave all the privledges of free room and board. At

this

> point, a mother has to get tough, no matter how painful, for the

sake

> of her child's life.

>

> I can't help but wonder if mother's have a blind spot when it

comes to

> this very crucial issue. I write as someone who endured years and

> years of abuse from a much older brother, who was every bit as

> " defiant " as your daughter, and whom my mother allowed to live at

home

> for many years past his eighteenth birthday. My mother too, tried

> everything short of the one thing that was appropriate in response

to

> his selfish behavior -- throwing him out of the house. She later

> justified her passivity by saying she simply loved her son too much

> (presumably at the expense of my own well-being, peace, and

security).

>

> I have a female friend my age who is currently supporting not only

her

> mother, but her deadbeat younger brother, who has a BA in Design

> (which my friend paid for and is now debt for), but who spends all

his

> time at home playing Final Fantasy video on his computer from

morning

> till night (or from night till morning). The boy's mother doesn't

want

> to pressure her little baby (who is 24 years old) " because she

loves

> him so much, " and my friend feels guilty about putting pressure on

her

> own mother to be responsible.

>

> So lives are destroyed out of a perverted misinterpretation of

> unconditional love.

>

> Rick

>

[Guest guest]

Great reply advocate...you lived up to your pen name today!!! I

really appreciate it...I have a boy with oppositional defiance disorder

as well as one with AS but some people say ODD is just a fancy term

for " being a brat " but it's more than that, in fact it's not that at

all...Brad, when he is in one of his moods, is practically incapable of

understanding consequenses and discipline, he just needs certain

adjustments to his environment or situation only it's a guessing game

each time, sometimes it's just food, other times it's sleep, other

times it can be that he's dehydrated, sometimes it's just plain ol'

being 8 yrs old and the rest of the time, we just have to ride it out,

because spanking makes it 10 times worse and time out? Are you kidding

me?! I know I joked and said he was a Jerk earlier but in the midst of

an outbreak, I turn into a monster too!,.. That's why when I'm in the

store and I see a Mom yell at her kids at the top of her lungs, While I

may be having a good day or hour for that matter, the truth is, I

haven't been with her kids all day and you can't judge someone else's

family...So thanks for your true advocacy

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks

I have been known to never stand up for myself, and always just

agree with people even if I don't believe in what they say. When I

decided to become an 'advocate' I really wanted to 'grow a back

bone' and I think I am getting there.

I am glad to know that you appreciated what I was thinking and

obviously understood.

I also want you, Sandy, to know that I call my little guys all kinds

of silly names too (brat, ok but silly like you, rugrat, rodent,

pain in my tooshie) and I get your humor. I think it keeps us sane

doesn't it?

*grin*

You made me feel great by letting me know that I did something

right:)

That feels good and really shows me what 'true advocacy; is:)

visualize and Aspie

*smiling ear to ear*

B

>

> Great reply advocate...you lived up to your pen name today!!! I

> really appreciate it...I have a boy with oppositional defiance

disorder

> as well as one with AS but some people say ODD is just a fancy

term

> for " being a brat " but it's more than that, in fact it's not that

at

> all...Brad, when he is in one of his moods, is practically

incapable of

> understanding consequenses and discipline, he just needs certain

> adjustments to his environment or situation only it's a guessing

game

> each time, sometimes it's just food, other times it's sleep, other

> times it can be that he's dehydrated, sometimes it's just plain

ol'

> being 8 yrs old and the rest of the time, we just have to ride it

out,

> because spanking makes it 10 times worse and time out? Are you

kidding

> me?! I know I joked and said he was a Jerk earlier but in the

midst of

> an outbreak, I turn into a monster too!,.. That's why when I'm in

the

> store and I see a Mom yell at her kids at the top of her lungs,

While I

> may be having a good day or hour for that matter, the truth is, I

> haven't been with her kids all day and you can't judge someone

else's

> family...So thanks for your true advocacy

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks to you, too Kim.

I am sorry you are divorced. I have been close several times and

often wonder if my husband will ever just leave and get tired of the

house of Aspies...

Yes, I bet a lot of the men I have dealt with are very embarassed

and that is why there are so many problems. I agree with your

thoughts that the idea of some of the dads is that their child with

a disability, and one especially that seems to not be able to

control his behavior is bad.

Your DS is a rule follower and that makes him a sissy? That drives

me crazy. He is a good soul and that is what I want to see in kids.

Just think if the world was filled with kids like that... rule

followers. whoa!!!!!

Yes, we do get to celebrate our victories don't we?

That is a good thing:)

*smiles*

lisa B

-- In , kim hibbs

<seanhibbs0112@...> wrote:

>

> I so have to reply to you...I couldn't agree with you more,

fortunately for my ds

> (5) he has aspies, my husband and i are divorced. Do you have

the feeling

> that these men are embarassed, because our sons have a

possible " disability " and they can't " control " their behavior. My

ds tends to be a big rule follower and he is very cautious, so a lot

of people including his father, think he is a " sissy " that i have

babied him and made him this way. I also agree that every situation

is different and people (especially on this site) should never

judge....rant and rave and vent about our situations without

judgements.....and sometimes we even get to celebrate our

victories.....kim

>

>

[Guest guest]

Rick don't take this as an attack, but I want to make sure the moms

out there don't take it as an attack either, because a lot of us

only get attacked.

It is ok not to agree with me, just as I didn't agree with you.

That is the nice thing about us Aspies that some people don't like,

is that we like to voice our opinions. (some of us. Though I was

always reserved in doing just that)

You are wrong, however in the thought that the responses are from

mothers who can't or won't make a distinction between an 8 year old

and a 23 year old. That is another one of those blanket accusations,

but I accept that because my husband does it all the time, so I am

beginning to think it is a male thing (though not all men are like

that. hahaha)

I am not a Severe Aspie, as a matter of fact I am called a mild

Aspie but I suffer a lot in silence.

One thing I can say is, through the life I have lived, (and it was

hell for me to for the first 13 years of my life, and mildly so for

the net 10 years,,, then I got married?!?!?!) anyway, I chose not to

be a hard 'ass' as my husband says. My husband just thinks it is all

about tough love, which sometimes can be appropriate, and I can

totally agree with that, Rick.

But sometimes we have to really look carefully before just assuming

that something is as we perceive it. (as I said to my husband when

he made one of his famous assumptions yesterday, when you Assume,

you make an.... A.S.S. out of you and me... But I always add, with

out me in that. haha)

My mom was waaaayyyy to overprotective of me. Now that I am an

adult, I can see when it held me back, but I am thank ful for it, at

the same time. I am still alive today because of some of her over

protectiveness.

Yeah, I admit, we moms have to work hard, and know when we need to

make our kids accountable for their behavior (which is all the time,

but we have to understand their capabilities first)

but making change doesn't mean making a person feel bad about what

they do.

I think helping other parents comes in the form of understanding

first, then education, then support.

I do understand your point, and I feel bad for those people you

dealt with that should have had a proper diagnosis.

It is hard when you work in a field where people don't seem to care.

Just as we don't want to enable an alcholic or someone abusing any

substance, we don't want to enable a child approaching adult hood to

not succeed!

I have more respect for the moms here that are working hard, asking

for help and less respect for those that are just blaming everyone

around them for their own mistakes and problems.

Sometimes the first step in making things right is asking for help.

I wish I had been your mom. I wouldn't have let you go through the

torture that you had to deal with. As a matter of fact, my youngest

hits my middle son A LOT so we are currently working on giving him

skills to handle his feelings.

To put it in perspective, a not so nice approach for me woudl have

been to say

My middle son get's hit by his younger brother all the time, but he

also antagonizes his younger brother. What did you do to make your

brother hurt you all the time. You must have been doing something to

get him upset with you:)

Now, I am not saying that, because really I would never actually say

such a thing. But I imagine you would be upset if someone said that

you, right?

That is how I think some moms feel at being attacked or blamed.

Eeks, this is too long

anyway, I wish I could have been something positive for you Rick.

As a fellow Aspie, you definitely didn't deserve what you got and I

think it is wrong but I like that you are doing things that can make

a difference in peoples lives and I hope you continue to do so.

At least you are brave enough to say how you feel.

It has taken me 36 years to get to that point:)

*smiles*

B

>

> Well, I have a severe case of Asperger's, have gone through hell

in my

> life and I don't agree. But what is telling here is that the

responses

> are mostly from mothers who can't or won't make a distinction

between

> an eight year-old and a twenty-three year-old. I guess it is true

> that no matter what age, in the eyes of the mother the child is

always

> " her baby, " but that attitude doesn't therefore benefit the

mother's

> child when said child has long passed the legal age for an adult.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Actually Rick, you said something Perfectly. You said, " Sometimes " a

child needs to feel like ... " well you know and, well, depending on

the age, and how it is handled, I agree with that.

That is what I am trying to get across is that we need to make our

children accountable, and yes when my youngest son hurts his brother

by hitting him, I do try to make him feel upset with himself for

hurting but I am saying that calling him a bad boy or a brat I don't

believe in.

I feel it is very good to let each child understand very clearly

when they have done something that is hurtful or selfish. I just

think we can do it tactfully and I bet you do too:)

yeah, I don't like hitting our kids at all. They have had some

sessions from dad, and at once a bit from me, because everyone kept

telling me that is what they needed. I went against every thing I

believed. It wasn't until I decided no more, even thought we didn't

do anything major and it wasn't alot because I hated it.

You are so right. They only learn to fear the bigger ones, and Fear

hurt and frustration all can lead to ANGER.

Along with you , My feelings were always invalidated (my father

molested me, but nothing had been done about it, and when I watched

my father threaten to kill my mother on numoerous occasions, no one

listened!) So here I am at 36 just getting to that point where I can

stand up for myself and others (somewhat!)

I still get shakey and get tearful when I do that.

I imagine you don't have to deal with that, so it must be the female

hormones in my own body?!?!

You know what, Rick, as long as we are assertive, (Not aggressive, I

don't like to be like that and it doesn't help anything!) I think

that is much better than what we used to be?

Agree?

*smiles*

B

> > they do.

>

> This is where I disagree. I happen to think that sometimes a child

> needs to feel like s#!t if he or she has acted out on a selfish or

> hurtful impulse. That goes for adults, too, by the way. And by the

> way, I am totally opposed to corporal punishment for children. But

> that is simply because I have always found corporal punishment

> grotesquely unfair, involving a major power imbalance, physically,

> between adults and children, where the only lesson is to fear those

> bigger than you.

>

> My brother and me have different fathers. My father was

ostentatiously

> and unreflexively favorable towards me while he was alive, and my

> oldest brother resented that, deeply. He too had also lost his

father,

> but at a much younger age. So he always resented me. My mother

> eventually admitted that she felt tremendously sorry for my older

> brother because of that loss, and was thus disinclined to

discipline

> him at all (with the result of a " Sophie's Choice " effect:

sacrifice

> one child for the sake of other).

>

> For a variety of reasons, partly due to my Asperger's, and partly

due

> to my dysfunctional upbringing, where my feelings were constantly

> invalidated, it took me a long time to be asssertive in situations

> where I risked embarrasment, other people's anger, or the loss of

> friendship.

>

> Rick

>

[Guest guest]

My dau, 27 years old has undiagnosed AS. She was observed by her older sister's

friend in San Diego in 2004.The friend suggested reading about it. Imagine if

you can, raising a girl child all these years, not knowing. I took her to at

least 6 professionals in the Counseling field, from the age of 8 to 18. She

didn't graduate from high school after being a junior 3 years. At the age of 14

she was memorizing telephone numbers and license tags of church members. They

were freaked out. Her sister and I thought it was funny- after all, she had been

reciting movie scripts for years. We called her Rainman after that.

When she was 16 months old, she began to bang her head on her mattress. Her

development was normal until I had her tested at a preschool. Her motor skills

were below average. She started talking non-stop at age 5. Before that i was

the only one who could understand her. She rode her bike at age 6, learned to

read then also. In her teens and behaving rude to me and at school, I began to

hear about tough love.

---------------------------------

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[Guest guest]

continued...I had already tried a dozen ways to discipline her and not

succeeding. Fortunately for me, she didn't mess up at church or in public. She

has had 25 different jobs lasting a day or a week. Now we jump ahead to

February, 2006. She decided to become more social. She started going to a

pot luck dinner on Tues. She heard about a job in April. Applied and was called

in May. Moved out the end of May to live with 20 year olds. She absolutely loves

her job and was told at inservice in August that she was the best monitor.Yes,

she rides the Special Bus. She identifies with the autistic children. Sometimes

she will rock and hum songs when they do. The reason I am writing is- she

developed at her own pace and when the time was right.

---------------------------------

Stay in the know. Pulse on the new .com. Check it out.

[Guest guest]

Having a child with I think now a little lower than HFA, I totally

agree with you Roxanna.

> > I don't agree at all. There are different kinds of autism out

there. My ds

> > definitely has autism and not " AS " . He isn't chatty or " a

little

> > professor. " He does " NOT " take chances in the least. He will

just not.

> > Even if it means something important to him or to his well

being. Well,

> > there are many more things I could add to the list but I'm too

beat today to

> > do that.

> >

> > Roxanna

> > Re: ( ) Re: 17 yr old defiance, or

Mothers Who

> > Spoil

> >

> >

> > To be honest, I had an unpleasant experience with a male

neighbor in

> > my apartment building who was shocked! shocked! (to quote a

line from

> > " Casablanca " ) that I dare criticize his fifteen year-old

daughter for

> > throwing a loud party past 1:00 AM on a Thursday night. So

fathers,

> > too, can let their emotions dictate their parenting. Indeed, my

> > father, the man whom most likely bequeathed his autism to me,

was like

> > that, though he died from alcoholism when I was twelve and I

was left

> > at the mercy of my dysfunctional mother.

> >

> > There is emotional and social maturity and there is Asperger's

or High

> > Functioning Autism. They are two seperate things. A person

with Autism

> > can still act out on impulses that are essentially selfish and

hurtful

> > in nature, and can not be explained merely as symptomatic of a

> > neurological tic. In your case, Roxanna, if your son really

wants to

> > make it in this world, then he deserves all the support he can

get.

> > The issue isn't his HFA, but rather what are his motivations.

Maybe I

> > could just be blunt: some people with HFA really don't " get "

certain

> > core principals about life until they leave home are banged up

a bit

> > by experience. A kind of almost intransient obtuseness is an

> > unfortunate element of HFA, and someone with HFA might have to

learn

> > some verities the hard way before he or she can buckle down and

> > willing accept the training and education they need to succeed

in

> > life.

> >

> > Rick

> >

> > >

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Kudo's mom!

The best thing is learning about our kids (IMHO) and finding out

their strengths, and weaknesses, and working with them to try to

make those weaknesses into strengths! Far too often I see 'other'

people just saying, " you have to fix this kis. You have to punish

this kids, etc " but when we ask for help, we don't get clear answers.

We strive so hard to do a good job(Most of us do) yet things aren't

working out.

Sometimes, it is a matter of time.

I feel that, with certain things, something has to click, like with

your daughter.

For me, it was an anti anxiety medication that was needed to help me

out. *still is today* because the feelings inside can bubble up and

no matter how much I understand what I am doing (getting mad,

irritated, etc) I have great difficulty holding it back.

I do well in public, but will cry if I get to that frustrated point.

But I don't hit people, or attack them in a rude way, I have just

learned to start talking about how I felt.

Before I didn't know.

It is just such a difficult world to live in. She just finally got

it, I think, and IMO that is WONDERFUL!!!!!

*SMILES*

LISA B

>

> continued...I had already tried a dozen ways to discipline her and

not succeeding. Fortunately for me, she didn't mess up at church or

in public. She has had 25 different jobs lasting a day or a week.

Now we jump ahead to February, 2006. She decided to become more

social. She started going to a pot luck dinner on Tues. She heard

about a job in April. Applied and was called in May. Moved out the

end of May to live with 20 year olds. She absolutely loves her job

and was told at inservice in August that she was the best

monitor.Yes, she rides the Special Bus. She identifies with the

autistic children. Sometimes she will rock and hum songs when they

do. The reason I am writing is- she developed at her own pace and

when the time was right.

>

>

>

> ---------------------------------

> Stay in the know. Pulse on the new .com. Check it out.

>

>

[Guest guest]

i THink you are right on target, Roxanna (correct name) *grin*

We have to understand each of our kids, and how they are

individually, and then work with what they have to help them be

successful in life.

Of course, all kids need consequences, but one thing I fail to say

is that there are negative and positive consequences, so I

personally don't mean that a consequence has to be something major.

I think of it, like, if you don't eat, you will be hungry, if you

hit, you will go in time out or do a chore, but my husband might

think if you don't eat, you suffer and deserve a punishment, and if

you hit someone you need to hit right back. That I don't agree with.

However that is why I say we have to really understand when they

have difficulties (anxiety, depression, etc) that we have to handle

things differently.

My youngest hits and A BIG part of that is the anxiety and his

problems with processing.

When I talk to some one in my family, they say HE NEEDS SEVERE

CONSEQUENCE. (Heck, even my husband) But what I am saying is I

understand why he is having difficulty and it isn't about just

punishing him. He needs to understand it is wrong to hit, and at the

same time, we need to give him another way to express his

frustration. We also need to help him decrease his anxiety.

We can help our kids to understand there are consequences to their

actions, just we with the special needs kids ESPECIALLY need to be

able to know when sometimes it isn't that easy and our kids need an

extra bit of help and understanding.

It doesn't mean we are spoiling them, it means we are trying

(hopefully) to help them not have something major happen to them and

we are understanding that they may take longer to learn alot of

skills that there peers already have:)

What you said is exactly what I have been saying to my whole family.

I just wish they would listen!

(*smiles*)

lisa b

>

> He suffers every day from having autism and various learning

disabilities. Would love to add more to that, maybe next week.

>

> I believe kids should have the consequences of their actions too.

But when you are talking about kids with autism, depression,

learning problems - you have to consider factors outside the " norm "

and your expectations have to change. For some people here who have

kids with mild AS, you might be thinking a lot differently than

people who have kids with severe AS or more problematic autism dx

with language delays. It is no longer about just teaching them

idioms or getting a social skill class. That is why with the OP,

there has to be a distinction made between a kid who is 17 yo and

just being obnoxious and one who has other problems such a

depression. One case, you would kick their butt into gear. The

other case, you would consult mental health people, possibly use

medication and some kind of appropriate therapy.

>

> Roxanna

> --

[Guest guest]

EXACTLY EXACTLY EXACTLY!!

*SMILES*

>

> I don't think you can say in general that a person is able to make

it independantly on their own unless you really know what they are

capable off. My son is only 6 at the moment and I am not sure if he

will be able to live independantly one day or not. I will judge at

the time what is in his best interest and mine. I certainly

wouldn't be BOOTING him out because he is legally an adult. And I

think top do that would be grossly unfair if the child wasn't able

to care for themselves.

>

> I too came from a very neglected background and suffered years of

abuse. My mother kicked me out when I turned 16 as she thought I

was old enough to make it on my own. It was a very selfish thing

for her to do and it almost destroyed my life.

>

> Beck

> ----- Original Message -----

>

[Guest guest]

How about if the 18 - 23 year old really doesn't understand it is

wrong, or doesn't understand what is right? I don't know if I'm

saying what I'm thinking here. With my son HFA at those ages, he

will not be able to move out on his own even if he is defiant he

wont understand he's being defiant. It tells me when the 23 year

old said she doesn't understand why she has limits, that she's not

getting it. I would never make her leave because of this, I would

try everything in my power to help her keep her limits, and not let

her drive for a while, etc. But unless she was staying out for days

at a time and stealing from me, I'd try everything I could to help

her more. If those mothers are reading this, have you tried the

gluten free diet? I know they are older and it might be harder but

anything at this point might help.

> >

> > I don't think you can say in general that a person is able to

make

> it independantly on their own unless you really know what they are

> capable off. My son is only 6 at the moment and I am not sure if

he

> will be able to live independantly one day or not. I will judge

at

> the time what is in his best interest and mine. I certainly

> wouldn't be BOOTING him out because he is legally an adult. And I

> think top do that would be grossly unfair if the child wasn't able

> to care for themselves.

> >

> > I too came from a very neglected background and suffered years

of

> abuse. My mother kicked me out when I turned 16 as she thought I

> was old enough to make it on my own. It was a very selfish thing

> for her to do and it almost destroyed my life.

> >

> > Beck

> > ----- Original Message -----

> >

>

[Guest guest]

i want my dd (23) to be 'on her own' but she's definitely not ready.

I've tried letting her live on her own before-(before she was approved

for some state-provided support)-she didn't eat, sleep, wash, clean her

apartment and was fired from her job cause she didn't show up (i showed

her how to take the bus, but she didn't use the busses). It

didn't 'click' with her that she needed to do certain things on her own-

-YES she does know how to cook, clean, do her laundry, etc--just like a

normal child. She is 'on the list' for supported living support, but

that list is 3+ yrs long--

I am trying to show her that living within the limits set for her is a

good thing. What does work most often is giving her a list of things

to do (shower, brush teeth, take out trash, feed pets, etc) and let her

decide (just like an adult does) when she will get these things done--

but set a time limit--say

by 5 pm. --that usually works. I am trying to show her that living

within the limits set for her is a good thing.

Trust me, I am NOT trying to spoil her--I want her to be successful and

independent more than anything, but realize she will need some support

when she does move out.

NJ

[Guest guest]

That is exactly what I am saying, too. We have to really understand

exactly what someone is going through before we can make a judgement

about them, because there are many situations where something is

just not right and this individual may need a little more help

before they can be moved on to society.

I feel that we need to do all we can in teaching our kids what is

right and wrong, and work hard at getting them functioning in an

acceptable way. If we just find it isn't working, we can try to get

support from others.

Some kids do just need the 'boot' but we have to be careful to

decide who does and who just needs more assistance to be prepared to

live on their own.

I am actually thankful that this discussion has gone on, because I

have a much more clear vision of how we should do things. My boys

should be so thankful (they won't be, but they should hahaha!)

*smiles*

>

> How about if the 18 - 23 year old really doesn't understand it is

> wrong, or doesn't understand what is right? I don't know if I'm

> saying what I'm thinking here. With my son HFA at those ages, he

> will not be able to move out on his own even if he is defiant he

> wont understand he's being defiant. It tells me when the 23 year

> old said she doesn't understand why she has limits, that she's

not

> getting it. I would never make her leave because of this, I would

> try everything in my power to help her keep her limits, and not

let

> her drive for a while, etc. But unless she was staying out for

days

> at a time and stealing from me, I'd try everything I could to help

> her more. If those mothers are reading this, have you tried the

> gluten free diet? I know they are older and it might be harder

but

> anything at this point might help.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

If I were the father of a twenty-three

> year-old, who had A.S. or anything else, and her or she was acting out

> in a socially disruptive manner, breaking rules, causing chaos, and

> being completely unresponsive to any counseling, then out the door

> they would go.

I have been following this very long thread since the beginning of it.

My son Jake is 11 yrs old, AS, PDD, OCD, ADD, ABCDEFG........his IQ is

below normal range, he has very agrressive/defensive behaviors,

extremely unpredictable. When he is " behaving " , he is the sweetest kid

in the world. I know that he will never be able to function on his own

as an adult. I also fear that he will never be able to fully control

his agressive behavior, though we are still working on getting that

under control while he is still a child. I have already planned on his

being in some kind of assisted living group home when he becomes an

adult. He already is bigger than me, and there is no way I would be

able to handle him if we don't get this under control then. This has

been a truly heartbreaking realization as a parent. My son will likely

never marry and have children, go to college, or have a significant

career.

The idea of " throwing him out the door " is appaling to any good caring

parent. I guess us parents of these " types " of kids, should just take

them to skid row and just drop them off, because they don't comply.

I also think that if you don't have a productive solution, or

suggestion, you should shut up and keep your negative comments to

yourself.

Most of us here are here because we are caring concerned parents

looking for answers and/or support. The very thought of these comments

are hurtful, not helpful.

Rant over!

Theresa

[Guest guest]

I think you have the best intentions, at least by what I have heard

you say.

And I can say that is sounds like you are really working hard and

trying to find ways to help her and that is the most important thing.

I have a feeling, HOWEVER, that your daughter knows all about not

raping, murdering and stealiing. that is a little off... I have a

feeling you are talking about different issues!

I am going to be doing some workshops and one thing I will be

talking about is for professionals (and not so profes.) really need

to understand families, and vise versa.

I hope I can make a difference some day in opening the channels of

communication between everyone.

Blaming and degrading people is not how we help people!

Kudo's to you.

I knew there was more to your story!!!

May other parents be so on board as you apparently are, in raising

their kids!! (Aspies or not!)

*smiles*

B

>

> i want my dd (23) to be 'on her own' but she's definitely not

ready.

> I've tried letting her live on her own before-(before she was

approved

> for some state-provided support)-she didn't eat, sleep, wash,

clean her

> apartment and was fired from her job cause she didn't show up (i

showed

> her how to take the bus, but she didn't use the busses). It

> didn't 'click' with her that she needed to do certain things on

her own-

> -YES she does know how to cook, clean, do her laundry, etc--just

like a

> normal child. She is 'on the list' for supported living support,

but

> that list is 3+ yrs long--

> I am trying to show her that living within the limits set for her

is a

> good thing. What does work most often is giving her a list of

things

> to do (shower, brush teeth, take out trash, feed pets, etc) and

let her

> decide (just like an adult does) when she will get these things

done--

> but set a time limit--say

> by 5 pm. --that usually works. I am trying to show her that

living

> within the limits set for her is a good thing.

> Trust me, I am NOT trying to spoil her--I want her to be

successful and

> independent more than anything, but realize she will need some

support

> when she does move out.

> NJ

>

[Guest guest]

year-old, who had A.S. or anything else, and her or she was acting out

> in a socially disruptive manner, breaking rules, causing chaos, and

> being completely unresponsive to any counseling, then out the door

> they would go.

These are all symptoms of autism. (I don't know about aspergers, but I

do know autism) They don't know not to break the rules, they are

very disruptive at times and can't help it. When they are being like

this or having an outburst they cannot be responsive and may not

understand what the counseler is saying. If thrown out the door would

cause life long emotional problems, and if you threw your child out

the door and they hurt themselves or someone else just because they

don't know better, how would you feel???

[Guest guest]

>

> year-old, who had A.S. or anything else, and her or she was acting

out

> > in a socially disruptive manner, breaking rules, causing chaos,

and

> > being completely unresponsive to any counseling, then out the door

> > they would go.

>

>

> These are all symptoms of autism. (I don't know about aspergers,

but I

> do know autism) They don't know not to break the rules, they are

> very disruptive at times and can't help it. When they are being

like

> this or having an outburst they cannot be responsive and may not

> understand what the counseler is saying. If thrown out the door

would

> cause life long emotional problems, and if you threw your child out

> the door and they hurt themselves or someone else just because they

> don't know better, how would you feel???

>

Ok, my son is 22, has Asperger's and he " acts out " because HE HAS

ASPERGERS and looks at the world in black and white. This means that

he does not understand why things change, when they will change or

how to deal with the change. He shuts down because change completely

halts his thought process. This is what Aspergers does to you. He

then gets frustrated because he knows that he should not shut down

because that is not " normal " and his thought process gets even worse

because he does not what to look " abnormal " but he cannot move, think

or do anything in the situation.This is what Aspergers does to you.

This becomes an endless cycle untill he is either helped by someone

(ha,ha),leaves the situation or gets angry and makes a scene. The

anger and frustration come from not being able to understand the

world and knowing he is doing something wrong but does not know what

he is supposed to do. Other people-so called NT people-can also cause

him to be frustrated and angry because of THE COMPLETE UNACCEPTANCE

OF ANYONE WHO IS DIFFERENT. People will make rude remarks, be

impatient or just refuse to " deal " with him. Often he is treated very

cruely in these situations because the world is just so helpful to

those of us who are " different " .

People with Aspergers cannot be " taught " , " punished " , " pushed " or

anything else to learn how to adapt to change. They CANNOT learn how

to adapt to change. They can only memorize each time that something

changed and what they did in that situation. The problem is that

almost no situation is exactly like any other because they cannot

see " grey areas " . I would say that 90% of the time they cannot see

how a previous situation relates to the one that they are in. Also,

it is hard to remember what you did in a previous situation when YOUR

BRAIN SHUTS DOWN!!!

For example: My son is able to do grocery shopping alone now that he

is able to drive. The other day I was with him at the grocery store

and we had two carts. I unloaded mine and, as he was unloading his,

asked him if I could go to the customer service counter to get a

refund on a perscription. This counter was only a few feet away from

the checkout stand and he has shopped alone many times now so he told

me " Sure, you know I've done this about a million times by now. " As I

was waiting for my refund I turned around to check on him and he was

just standing at the checkout while the clerk STARED at him. I knew

that something had happened so I went back to the checkout and asked

the checker what was happening. The second cart was still way back at

the beginning of the check out and only 1/2 unloaded. The checker,

very rudely said to me " is that 2nd cart yours? " . His facial

expression was one of extreme irritation. Turns out that what

happened-which my son told me in the car later-was that my son saw

some groceries-from my cart-at the place where they bag them-that he

did not recognize so he told the clerk that those were not his

groceries. I don't know what the clerk said to him but my son told me

that he then realized that they were the groceries from my cart and

told the checker that, yes, they were his groceries. This is when the

checker just stopped checking and STARED at him. Why he did this I do

not know but that made my son shut down completely because he had

never been in that EXACT same situation before. He stopped unloading

the cart and just stood there and I don't know how it would have

ended up if I hadn't stepped in. This is after almost a year of

buying groceries for me.

Why did the checker make such a big deal out of this? Why did he not

just say, " Oh, OK, so they are yours " and continue checking the

groceries? I believe it is because my son cannot look people in the

eye and tilts his head down and kind of squints up at them. He also

has a nervous habit of pulling his eyebrows out-I forget what this is

called-(trich something?)and so has only about 1/4 of his right

eyebrow and about 3/4 of his left eyebrow. So, he acts and looks

DIFFERENT! OH MY GOD! So let's make him feel even more different by

STARING AT HIM! This could have ended up with my son getting angry

and " acting out in a socially disruptive manner " . Why should he be

punished for this? He is only reacting to the person making him feel

different. The person that makes him feel that way should be

punished! Where is the humanity these days? Don't ask me cause I

don't know. I think it got sucked into some vortex where only people

who are " normal " have access to it.

As for " throwing someone out the door " that is almost impossible in

California, where I live, as there is a law that parents are

responsible for their adult disabled children. Also, our mental

health money has been taken away by our lovely governor and, at least

where I live because I asked, there is no place to " throw them away "

to. Unless the person is a danger to himself or others they don't

qualify for " group homes " or anything else.

As for " causing chaos " and " breaking the rules " ,those are the norm at

my house. This is because they are sometimes so overwhelmed by how

hard their life is because they are " different " , that they cannot

help but break the rules and cause chaos. It is not something they do

on purpose and yes they are reminded all the time about " the rules "

and " keeping peace in the house " . Punishing them only makes them feel

worse than they already feel. They do not want to cause chaos or

break the rules.

Also the, " being completely unresponsive to counseling " , now what

does this mean? Do you mean that there is an absolute 100% way of

counseling that can change their brain chemistry? Is there an

absolute 100% way of counseling that will make them understand the

world? Is there a way of counseling that will take away their sensory

issues? Is there a way of counseling that will completely heal them

from being overwhelmed by a world that refuses to accept them? If you

know where I can get that counseling I would sell my soul to be able

to give that to my children.

Sorry for the rant but this just p**sed me off so much!

Becky

[Guest guest]

I keep hoping here in Maine, but the people I have worked with

refuse to let me do any. I offer to free, and they don't give me the

opportunities.

Fortunately I have just gotten a job IN Oklahoma (Doing a workshop)

and IL am Key Note Speaker. I AM THRILLED that someone has given me

this chance. It is too bad that those I work with won't.

I have been told I am an Atypical Aspie so I guess Being high

Functioning isn't a good thing for some people.

The funny thing is I suffer Daily from Anxiety and all of my other

issues, but I I keep it up inside, because I don't want other people

to have to deal with it.

Is that so bad? Probably for me, it is!!!

>

>

> In a message dated 8/14/2006 6:45:25 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

> advocateforaspies@... writes:

>

>

>

> I am going to be doing some workshops and one thing I will be

> talking about is for professionals (and not so profes.) really

need

> to understand families, and vise versa.

>

>

>

>

> Where do you do your workshops? Pam

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

*giggling*

B

>

> Correct name AND you agree with me. Two points! <G>

>

> Roxanna

> ----- Original Message -----

>

[Guest guest]

Your right:)

Eeks. That happens easily.

It has been very interesting, though *Grin*

lisa b

>

> I think this is an interesting conversation too. I think somehow,

though, we have mixed up the original post. lol. I don't think the

23 yo had AS. I

[Guest guest]

> Frequently, there are things like support groups, which are usually

> free.

FINALLY! We agree on something! This is a support group, lets start

supporting!

Theresa

[Guest guest]

Ouch!!!!

The hole gets deeper and deeper, and deeper!

> >

> >

> > Hi Rick,

> > what about the people that can't make that decision, nor are

aware of the consequences.

> >

>

> Then they can't function in society and need to be put under

> supervised care. And their parents will have to accept that as a

> constant of their children's lives.

>

> Rick

>