Re: Hello Hello, What's this then?

July 26, 2005

amen.. we agree!

my son is also medicated.. the stress and anxiety that he feels over his

own behavior.. and how that behavior alienated him from his friends..was an

issue for him as well.. ( thank god he can talk now too.. so he can

verbalize his emotions much better..) He knows when he hasn't taken his

medication.. and he feels it.. and requests it.

yup.. teens.. never know how it is to be a parent.. and contrary to popular

teen folklore ... we DO remember what it was like to be 15..

-- Re: ( ) Hello Hello, What's this then?

he is 15.. and we all know that comes with it's own

issues LOL Don't you remember when you were an expert on everything too??

<

That was the point I was too angry to make Chris- he's FIFTEEN... and while

I have BEEN fifteen, and can at least relate to that... he has never been

the parent of ANY child, much less one with special needs. I've had two. One

who NEEDS his meds to function, and is still quirky and needs a little

direction, and one that died of something medicine couldn't fix. I get a

little defensive when someone tries to tell me how to parent. Especially

someone who cannot POSSIBLY relate.

July 26, 2005

Hi ,

Just realize that many people are not familiar with Aspergers or

autism except maybe in general ways, so learn patience and also to

shrug off comments.

My AS son also has OCD and when OCD began interfering with school,

they basically just knew about OCD things like contamination fears,

washing hands a lot, etc., none of which applied to my son. So I

had to educate them or rather they just had to listen to me as to

what help he needed. As to the Aspergers diagnosis he received in

8th grade - when I finally decided we needed the diagnosis for

school and maybe even for career, I don't know - to my son, he

is " just him " and not AS.

Best of luck to you!

> I'd like to first apologize to the parents that read my post and

> thought that I was condemning and judging the use of medication to

> treat AS. My comments were directed not to your specific cases but

to

> the idea of treating every case with medication regardless of the

> specific details. The " Designer child " statement was one that might

> have been out of line and could have easily been taken out of

context,

> I sometimes use what I'm writing to vent my inner frustation and

July 26, 2005

I .. feel your apology is well written and heartfelt hon..

it shows that this is a hot button topic to be sure.. and if we are to

preach tolerance.. and Expect tolerance.. we must also BE tolerant..

thank you for your clarification and your apology... and I might add.. that

Parenting... is the hardest job in the world..

from being told you are going to be one... and second guessing that smoke

you had last week.. before you conceived.... to... wondering if that bean

burrito you ate.. before delivery caused something wrong too....

then.. your child is diagnosed.. with being on the spectrum... and..

thinking.. Did I DO this to my child?? and having every single physician go

over your entire actions.. with a fine tooth comb.. ( did you worry while

pregnant.. , did you have any tylenol...did you.. yada ... yada.. yada... )

Our parental... hair triggers are also a little.. sensitive too.

-- Re: ( ) Hello Hello, What's this then?

I'd like to first apologize to the parents that read my post and

thought that I was condemning and judging the use of medication to

treat AS. My comments were directed not to your specific cases but to

the idea of treating every case with medication regardless of the

specific details. The " Designer child " statement was one that might

have been out of line and could have easily been taken out of context,

I sometimes use what I'm writing to vent my inner frustation and that

particular statement comes from a talk I had with a counselor once

that led to her suggesting me being placed in alternative classes and

being medicated(The issue in question was my speech impediment and

slow speaking style). Another bit of anger I had came from my brief

message reading I did before posting. Short messages like " My son just

got diagnosed with AS? How should I medicate him " . Although it's true

that I don't know those people or their situations short messages. I

also apologize for my short Post Script that contained no true point,

I did not make my post to complain about " normal people " or whatever

other meaning that might have been gotten out of that. Parents, this

post was not about you, it was about me. It was about me ranting about

the people in my life who I have told about my conclusions and the

ways they reacted. People are so quick to change their opinions about

you when they know you technically fit into some sort of category.

" You're AUTISTIC?!- Autistic spectrum, yes I believe so...- Oh wow,

bless your heart.. What are you doing about it?- What do you mean what

am I doing about it?- You know finding out you're autistic and all-

It's not a bloody cold, it's a personality type- Still... you going to

take pills or something? "

Evil Penguin showed the sort of generalization I mean best of all:

" I don't think you have Asperger's after all. No one *I* know who has

it, would

EVER judge someone else that way. "

Once again, if you were offended by my statements you either know me

personally in real life or else you read my post wrong.

(To moderator, I might have posted twice. I don't know if you rejected

my previous post or haven't received it. There was technical errors

here earlier.)

July 26, 2005

I speak for myself and I will say that I appreciate your apology....but I

would offer you another perspective on the following...you wrote:

People are so quick to change their opinions about

>you when they know you technically fit into some sort of category.

I know adults that I have come across that I found irritated me, irritated

others, etc...they seemed self-absorbed, etc...and then I realized that they

had asperger traits. (Some people are going to feel that I am playing fast

and loose with the idea of AS traits... in that I have lived with a husband

with these traits for 16 years and a son for 9 and have 3 female friends

with these traits, I feel that I have a clue when I see it.) For me, it

isn't about knowing that a person technically fits into some category...it

is just that some behavior that could have been misinterpreted as rude,

self-absorbed, or uncaring is now seen in a different light. You could look

at it as a way for the people around you to truly appreciate your

differences and thus fully appreciate you for who you are...the essence of

you...which has very little to do with ANY kind of traits...

I guess to you it MIGHT feel like, I am the same person I was a minute ago

before I told you what may possibly make me different...why are you now

treating me different. I imagine that might feel hurtful...and I imagine

that for some people it is like they are putting you in a neat little

category all tied up with a bow - that is more their issue than yours...but

again, you might want to consider that it may aid some people's

understanding of you and thus their appreciation of you...

And I agree with some of the parents that have said that you may not have AS

- HOWEVER, there is a chance that you could have traits of AS and maybe you

may want to speak to a professional about this...also for some people, they

may have been diagnosed with AS at a young age and then develop some

coping/compensating strategies and may present with what Tony Atwood refers

to as residual AS...just something to think about...

>From: " " <dillanhuntex10@...>

>Reply-

>

>Subject: Re: ( ) Hello Hello, What's this then?

>Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 15:19:43 -0000

>

>I'd like to first apologize to the parents that read my post and

>thought that I was condemning and judging the use of medication to

>treat AS. My comments were directed not to your specific cases but to

>the idea of treating every case with medication regardless of the

>specific details. The " Designer child " statement was one that might

>have been out of line and could have easily been taken out of context,

>I sometimes use what I'm writing to vent my inner frustation and that

>particular statement comes from a talk I had with a counselor once

>that led to her suggesting me being placed in alternative classes and

>being medicated(The issue in question was my speech impediment and

>slow speaking style). Another bit of anger I had came from my brief

>message reading I did before posting. Short messages like " My son just

>got diagnosed with AS? How should I medicate him " . Although it's true

>that I don't know those people or their situations short messages. I

>also apologize for my short Post Script that contained no true point,

>I did not make my post to complain about " normal people " or whatever

>other meaning that might have been gotten out of that. Parents, this

>post was not about you, it was about me. It was about me ranting about

>the people in my life who I have told about my conclusions and the

>ways they reacted. People are so quick to change their opinions about

>you when they know you technically fit into some sort of category.

> " You're AUTISTIC?!- Autistic spectrum, yes I believe so...- Oh wow,

>bless your heart.. What are you doing about it?- What do you mean what

>am I doing about it?- You know finding out you're autistic and all-

>It's not a bloody cold, it's a personality type- Still... you going to

>take pills or something? "

>

>Evil Penguin showed the sort of generalization I mean best of all:

> " I don't think you have Asperger's after all. No one *I* know who has

>it, would

>EVER judge someone else that way. "

>

>Once again, if you were offended by my statements you either know me

>personally in real life or else you read my post wrong.

>

July 27, 2005

, Roxanna and others...

You have all given wonderful replies to ...and I especially appreciated

the way responded...I could not have said it better---thank you.

Roxanna...again I want to tell you, you do a great job of monitoring and I

appreciate this group so much. OK, now...everybody into the pool! LOL!

Blessings,

Gail

July 27, 2005

Hi ,

The written word can have many interpretations, so

thanks for clarifying your comments. We are parents,

most of us have had our children formally diagnosed

with Aspergers. We struggle with everyday challenges

of raising a child(ren) with this diagnosis. Every

member in our family has been impacted by our child's

symptoms. This is a support group. I use this group

to vent, seek advice, seek understanding from fellow

parents who know how I feel and can empathize. I also

respond to others when I believe my input would be

supportive. I don't know how supportive your family

has been in your life, I'm sure you only shared a

fraction of the frustration you have felt, past and

present. I'm not sure why you haven't spoken with a

doctor about your concerns versus self-diagnosis.

Medication isn't for everyone, but if you're

considering a field in psychiatry you are aware of,

and should support, psychotropic medication as a

treatment option for a variety of mental health

conditions. If Psychiatry is just a fixation, I

wonder why you would waste 8 years (post high

school)of your time, just to find out that it was the

wrong field for you.

So, now that you have expressed your opinion and heard

ours, is this really the group for you?

--- <dillanhuntex10@...> wrote:

> First of all I'd like to say it is not my intention

> to offend anyone

> today, I'd just like to further my knowledge in this

> subject by

> getting the viewpoint of all those concerned. My

> name is

> (), I am a 15 year old student from

> Texas. All my life I

> was always a little odd. I would opt for the hard

> classes and take the

> long route even knowing that there was an easier way

> to do things.

> These things I did were to better my own

> understandings of subjects,

> not to put myself in good standing with the

> authority figures in my

> life. As I've previously mentioned I am a little

> odd, and I'm the

> first one to admit it. This speech style I use is

> one I've had since

> 4th grade and still makes me the recipient of blank

> stares from

> friends and teachers alike. I'm not much in social

> situations, unless

> there is some sort of subject specific theme

> involved and I do seem to

> ramble on subjects that are of particular interest

> to me. If it's not

> blantantly obvious by now then the only way that

> comprehension will

> follow is for me to just outright say it: I am what

> all of you and a

> divided portion of the scientific community calls a

> " sufferer " of

> asperger's syndrome. I'm not formally diagnosed, and

> I do not plan on

> getting myself " checked out " by a mental health

> professional either. I

> found out about this disorder on one of my several

> hour long wikipedia

> information treks and my response to the definition

> of the disorder

> was the very same as the one in my subject line.

> Psychiatry is one of

> my " fixations " I guess you would say (or

> " interests " , if the subject

> in question is someone without any " mental health

> issues). I was never

> diagnosed with any development disorders and in

> second grade I was

> given an IQ test and scored about 140. I was placed

> in gifted and

> talented classes and never fit in well there either.

> I have a group of

> friends but don't fit in with the main group of

> students because I

> refuse to define myself using mainstream media as a

> clutch(Using pop

> culture as an identity seems like a developmental

> disorder but to my

> knowledge noone has done a study on that). The point

> of my ranting

> about myself was to form the basis of another rant.

>

> Why is it so bad to be different? It seems like in

> this day in age

> people are quick to diagnose and prescribe. I wrote

> this post on my

> own volition using nothing but my mind, a glass of

> lemon juice and 5

> minutes of my time. Though I understand that some

> people really do

> need medication in order to function in society this

> is not true for

> all " sufferers " of " disorders " . There has been no

> link between a real

> physical problem and asperger's syndrome. Medicating

> a child with

> asperger-like traits is the same as medicating a

> child who shows

> himself to be too outgoing.

>

> I am going to be a Junior next year and I hope once

> I graduate to go

> to college and become a physician or a psychiatrist.

> I will do this as

> my own person. I am " , odd, quirky and unique "

> not " the

> asperger sufferer overcoming adversity " and I will

> never let anyone

> change me into a designer child through medication

> or any other

> means.

>

> P.S. The title, " Asperger's Support group " , and

> purpose of this group

> is both surprising and insulting. I truly expected

> this was going to

> be a group of people with asperger traits discussing

> how complicated

> and frustrating it is to deal with people who call

> themselves " normal "

> with a straight face.

>

__________________________________________________

July 27, 2005

,

This is not the group for you.

This is a support group for " family " mainly parents. I am sure your parents

feel differently about you and your disability or lack of one since you have

not been diagnosed nor making any attempt to get a diagnosis.

Please consider you may not have Aspergers, since my child had to have at

least 6 - 8 hours of testing before his diagnosis that was done by many

professionals; all whom agree with the findings. You have only done your own

research of this disorder ; considering only yourself and you own feelings.

I hope you can find the group you are looking for.

in NJ

-- Re: ( ) Hello Hello, What's this then?

Hi ,

The written word can have many interpretations, so

thanks for clarifying your comments. We are parents,

most of us have had our children formally diagnosed

with Aspergers. We struggle with everyday challenges

of raising a child(ren) with this diagnosis. Every

member in our family has been impacted by our child's

symptoms. This is a support group. I use this group

to vent, seek advice, seek understanding from fellow

parents who know how I feel and can empathize. I also

respond to others when I believe my input would be

supportive. I don't know how supportive your family

has been in your life, I'm sure you only shared a

fraction of the frustration you have felt, past and

present. I'm not sure why you haven't spoken with a

doctor about your concerns versus self-diagnosis.

Medication isn't for everyone, but if you're

considering a field in psychiatry you are aware of,

and should support, psychotropic medication as a

treatment option for a variety of mental health

conditions. If Psychiatry is just a fixation, I

wonder why you would waste 8 years (post high

school)of your time, just to find out that it was the

wrong field for you.

So, now that you have expressed your opinion and heard

ours, is this really the group for you?

--- <dillanhuntex10@...> wrote:

> First of all I'd like to say it is not my intention

> to offend anyone

> today, I'd just like to further my knowledge in this

> subject by

> getting the viewpoint of all those concerned. My

> name is

> (), I am a 15 year old student from

> Texas. All my life I

> was always a little odd. I would opt for the hard

> classes and take the

> long route even knowing that there was an easier way

> to do things.

> These things I did were to better my own

> understandings of subjects,

> not to put myself in good standing with the

> authority figures in my

> life. As I've previously mentioned I am a little

> odd, and I'm the

> first one to admit it. This speech style I use is

> one I've had since

> 4th grade and still makes me the recipient of blank

> stares from

> friends and teachers alike. I'm not much in social

> situations, unless

> there is some sort of subject specific theme

> involved and I do seem to

> ramble on subjects that are of particular interest

> to me. If it's not

> blantantly obvious by now then the only way that

> comprehension will

> follow is for me to just outright say it: I am what

> all of you and a

> divided portion of the scientific community calls a

> " sufferer " of

> asperger's syndrome. I'm not formally diagnosed, and

> I do not plan on

> getting myself " checked out " by a mental health

> professional either. I

> found out about this disorder on one of my several

> hour long wikipedia

> information treks and my response to the definition

> of the disorder

> was the very same as the one in my subject line.

> Psychiatry is one of

> my " fixations " I guess you would say (or

> " interests " , if the subject

> in question is someone without any " mental health

> issues). I was never

> diagnosed with any development disorders and in

> second grade I was

> given an IQ test and scored about 140. I was placed

> in gifted and

> talented classes and never fit in well there either.

> I have a group of

> friends but don't fit in with the main group of

> students because I

> refuse to define myself using mainstream media as a

> clutch(Using pop

> culture as an identity seems like a developmental

> disorder but to my

> knowledge noone has done a study on that). The point

> of my ranting

> about myself was to form the basis of another rant.

>

> Why is it so bad to be different? It seems like in

> this day in age

> people are quick to diagnose and prescribe. I wrote

> this post on my

> own volition using nothing but my mind, a glass of

> lemon juice and 5

> minutes of my time. Though I understand that some

> people really do

> need medication in order to function in society this

> is not true for

> all " sufferers " of " disorders " . There has been no

> link between a real

> physical problem and asperger's syndrome. Medicating

> a child with

> asperger-like traits is the same as medicating a

> child who shows

> himself to be too outgoing.

>

> I am going to be a Junior next year and I hope once

> I graduate to go

> to college and become a physician or a psychiatrist.

> I will do this as

> my own person. I am " , odd, quirky and unique "

> not " the

> asperger sufferer overcoming adversity " and I will

> never let anyone

> change me into a designer child through medication

> or any other

> means.

>

> P.S. The title, " Asperger's Support group " , and

> purpose of this group

> is both surprising and insulting. I truly expected

> this was going to

> be a group of people with asperger traits discussing

> how complicated

> and frustrating it is to deal with people who call

> themselves " normal "

> with a straight face.

>

__________________________________________________

July 27, 2005

Once again, if you were offended by my statements you either know me

personally in real life or else you read my post wrong.

<

There may be more hope for you than I thought... LOL. Understood, agreed, and

claws are now sheathed... It's easy for some of us parents to get defensive,

because we've been fighting all our children's lives to get them recognized, and

get them the accommodations they need to function in the typical world, not to

change them... but to let them be themselves.

July 28, 2005

pltoc@... wrote:, Roxanna and others...

You have all given wonderful replies to ...and I especially appreciated

the way responded...I could not have said it better---thank you.

Roxanna...again I want to tell you, you do a great job of monitoring and I

appreciate this group so much. OK, now...everybody into the pool! LOL!

Blessings,

Gail

Thanks Gail! We love you too!

Roxanna ô¿ô

Don't take life too seriously; No one gets out alive.

__________________________________________________

July 29, 2005

In a message dated 7/29/2005 12:08:41 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

rrabbits@... writes:

So as a group rule, you are trying to overcome the tendency people have of

considering themselves the measure of normality and hoping that a different

label will have a different effect. It is interesting to watch how it

works in actual practice (the degree of effectiveness will vary.)

What do you mean?

Roxanna

ö¿ö

In God we trust, all others we virus scan

July 29, 2005

So as a group rule, you are trying to overcome the tendency people have of

considering themselves the measure of normality and hoping that a different

label will have a different effect. It is interesting to watch how it

works in actual practice (the degree of effectiveness will vary.)

After a while when an acronym is in long -term usage, some begin to forget

the original words that made up the acronym, or new people begin using it

and not knowing the original, guess evolving the base words to something

completely different.

I think that even if you provide a different terminology, the basic

tendencies will still be there. The same kind of tendencies occurred with

the different terms used for African American. Each time a new 'preferred'

term to refer non-pejoratively to people in that group was created it began

over time to pick up the same societal prejudices the new word was set up to

avoid.

Also, it is easy to appear more 'social' online so be careful of assuming

you can diagnose online. It is also easier to assume a tone is present in

an online message that isn't there by basing your reactions/assumptions on

your own experiences of people you know in RL who may or may not resemble

the person you are communicating with online.

I am a parent of three children who are on the spectrum. My youngest is a

10 year old who can hold a college level conversation on some topics but is

very affected in social communications. I am also on the spectrum so I

usually lurk rather than participate a lot here. My husband is on the

spectrum also. Among our family we can see that people can have varying

affectedness in different areas. My son has a definite diagnosis and yet

because he can many times make appropriate eye contact, the superintendent

of schools, who is not qualified at all to make or break diagnosis, told me

my son cannot have HFA or Asperger's and that it is obviously a discipline

problem that started at home.

Kathy J.

July 30, 2005

In a message dated 7/29/2005 11:03:10 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

rrabbits@... writes:

I have noticed

the use of NT but didn't realize you meant it to be mandatory. I still

stand by my assertion that people have a tendency to see their own life,

wants, desires and actions to be 'normal' and others to be alien until

someone breaks it to them that maybe they are 'wierd'.

It's only " mandatory " when people are making fun of or being sarcastic about

people who are not autistic. I know I don't try to get as hung up on the

word being used as the meaning being expressed.

I disagree with your assertion. People are not so blind that they can't see

when things are not typical in their own lives. I give people more credit,

perhaps. I grew up in a very dysfunctional family and I sure knew it - even

as a child. I also don't agree that different is " weird. " And who tells

other people they are weird anyway?

<<One reason this is important is because when someone is doing research into

something, for example skin hardiness/resistance to injury, they will tend

to think of skin tenderer than theirs as fragile, and skin hardier than

theirs as tough untill enough research makes them realize that perhaps 60

percent of the population has hardier skin than the researcher and he makes

a range that probably includes himself as normal, unless he discovers to his

shock that 90 percent of the population has hardier skin than he in which

case he is forced to

>>

A researcher would have to start out by defining the characteristics he is

studying. He/she could not do a research project based on his/her own

personal body type. That would not be scientific.

<<It also means that when

posted, he saw himself as the 'norm' for AS. He is rather young and

it will probably be a while before he realizes there is quite a range of

skills and abilities in people with AS and that while he may prefer being

treated a certain way, others may not.

>>

I don't know that saw himself as the " norm " for AS at all. I think he

is surfing the net and decided to have some fun on this list. What this

list is about is clearly stated before he joined. Having some traits similar

to

AS does not mean one has the dx. Again, a lot of people are not good

socially or have sensory issues more strongly than others and it does not make

them

autistic or AS. So I don't think much of a kid coming on the list after

self-dx'ing himself with a serious disorder, making fun of people who don't

have

it and putting people down for medicating their kids. It was one flame

starter after another in one post which is why he was just out to cause

trouble.

<<It also means that each of us as parents will feel a little more strongly

invested in the way that worked for us (and our child(ren) and we will have

to be careful to remember that our innate need to feel 'normal' to ourselves

might make us defensive when someone else brings up an idea or strong

opinion that seems to undermine

that.>>

Well, other parents may or may not feel that way, I don't know. I know I

don't feel that way. Because a specific method worked better than another for

one of my kids doesn't make me feel " normal " at all. It's just a factoid to

me. There is nothing " normal " in our lives since my ds was born and dx'd

with autism and we don't even expect that from life anymore. I know I am aware

that what works for one doesn't guarantee it will work for another. I think

a lot of us already know that, no matter how many kids we have with AS/HFA.

There are always sure to be some people who only see it their own way, but

you get that anywhere in life. I have two with HFA and they are two sides of

the same coin entirely. But I work with and around a number of other kids

with autism and it is very easy to see how different they are and how different

approaches need to be used in different circumstances, depending upon the

needs of the child.

didn't stick around anyway - the impatience of youth. Bet he has ADD

then, huh. lol.

all the 's in the world should collect on some far group planet

and party on, Garth. lol. that's fine. It's not like the world needs another

" I dx'd myself with AS " running around cyberspace (maybe he will write a

book!) But this would not be the place to practice his " social skills " at all.

And he probably got that message, which is why he left so quickly.

Roxanna ô¿ô

Today's subliminal thought is:

July 30, 2005

Sorry to be unclear. One of my interests is words and changes in meaning

over time. I have also had interest in acronyms and their development and

uses. Some acronyms become part of common usage and then eventually the

origin becomes fogged (like OK or SOS). Other phrases or acronyms mean

different things to different specific groups of people (in the various

trades, clubs, or associations) and a person can become confused when moving

from one group to another if you are not aware of the different meanings,

kind of like comparing British english to American english. I have noticed

the use of NT but didn't realize you meant it to be mandatory. I still

stand by my assertion that people have a tendency to see their own life,

wants, desires and actions to be 'normal' and others to be alien until

someone breaks it to them that maybe they are 'wierd'.

One reason this is important is because when someone is doing research into

something, for example skin hardiness/resistance to injury, they will tend

to think of skin tenderer than theirs as fragile, and skin hardier than

theirs as tough untill enough research makes them realize that perhaps 60

percent of the population has hardier skin than the researcher and he makes

a range that probably includes himself as normal, unless he discovers to his

shock that 90 percent of the population has hardier skin than he in which

case he is forced to

some hard conclusions about himself and his skin. It also means that when

posted, he saw himself as the 'norm' for AS. He is rather young and

it will probably be a while before he realizes there is quite a range of

skills and abilities in people with AS and that while he may prefer being

treated a certain way, others may not.

It also means that each of us as parents will feel a little more strongly

invested in the way that worked for us (and our child(ren) and we will have

to be careful to remember that our innate need to feel 'normal' to ourselves

might make us defensive when someone else brings up an idea or strong

opinion that seems to undermine

that. Since I have three children on the spectrum, all very different from

each other, I have seen that what works with one child, sometimes works

with the second and sometimes triggers a meltdown because one child is very

sensitive to sounds like someone eating, where the other is more sensitive

to odors, colors, not wanting certain foods to appear on the plate together.

Kathy J.

July 30, 2005

Kathy,

My son, ael is very sensitive to the sounds of someone eating. He has

P.D.D. and Aspergers Syndrome. At 19, Nate is very set in his ways and no one

can tell him anything. He is a very sweet man, though, and doesn't have an

enemy in the world. Everyone who really knows him loves him. ael has a

very strong faith in God and reads his Bible everyday, although, sometimes he

has trouble interpreting it, realistically, but then, we all have some trouble

with that. After all, we are all human. Sometimes, my own son puts me to

shame.

B.

Kathy <rrabbits@...> wrote: