Re: Does he argue with me for fun? (long)

[Guest guest]

Hi Jackie,

You just described my 8 year old son. the part you wrote about the block.

you wrote: " he has this absolute block sometimes. after we burst through the

block. he understands perfectly " . My son doesn't have algebra yet. but this

" block " happens with other things. He will start yelling, you don't understand

anything! (when he doesn't know the answer, or can't explain the question

right).

question: What causes the " block " or why does it happen?

you also wrote: He also expects shoes to magically appear on his feet. My

son will open the refrigerator to look for the catchup. not move anything and

say " its not there " you need to buy more. same thing with his clothes, shoes,

anything he needs that's not in clear site.

Jackie Geipel <jackie@...> wrote:

I can always understand these fits at around 8:15 pm when the

Concerta wears off, but at 1:30 pm?

DS, 12, had short day of school yesterday. Great, can get homework

done and still have time to play.

Nowhere else to go all day. All the homework he had was 5 math

problems. Word problems, which

aren't his strength. But there's only 5.

First one, after I had to tell him to think of the limitations, he

got it pretty quickly.

Second one about measuring with straws of different lengths. Cut

strips of paper to imitate straws.

He was sort of on the right track from the beginning. Kept playing

around with the papers and figured

it out pretty quickly. Ok.

Third problem. OH MY WORD. You would think I was asking him to

calculate the probability of

life on other planets. It was solving for an unknown. I do not

know how they taught it in

class, but there's only one way I can figure....move everything to

the other side of the equation.

It's algebra, but it's easy and he's done it before.

the question was like

(?x 9) / 2 + 6 - 45 = 51

So I went step by step, move the 45 over, how do you do that?, add 45.

What's on the right hand side? 96

What's remaining on the left hand side? He just kept saying " 6 "

What ALL is remaining on the left hand side? " 6 "

I came over and opened up a word processor and copied a paragraph

into it.

Then I took the last word and moved it to a page 2. Then I asked

" What is

left on page 1 " . He said " most of the paragraph. " I said " not

just the last

word on the page, but all the words from the top of the page, right?

Right.

Back to math.... " What is all still on the left side that has to

moved? " " 6 "

ARGH.,

Much angst on both sides of the table.

Went to his room. Came back down and I did the word processing

example again.

Still can't figure out the problem.

He starts to move the 45 then I told him to rewrite what's left on

the left side.

He couldn't do it. Even if he didn't understand exactly why, I

wanted him to do it, so he could SEE it.

Nope, nothing doing.

After major trauma, he just stopped and said " oh, I know " and sat

down and did it. Perfectly.

The next problem was really easy about probability of a spinner thing.

Last problem was about framing a picture. Picture is 8.5 x 11,

frame is 3/4 " with 1/4 " overlap.

What dimension is the framed picture.

Told him his piece of paper was 8.5 x 11, made strips of paper 3/4 "

wide with a line drawn at 1/4 and

laid it on the paper. Asked how far it was from edge of paper to

edge of frame. Told him there was frame

on every side of the " picture. " Would not look at my frame. Ripped

my frame into several pieces.

Would not listen to what I was saying. Argued that I didn't know

the right answer. Then figured it out.

Did I just tell you in another post that his ODD was resolved? LOL

From the time his homework was

done, he was fine. I gave him another similar algebra problem at

dinner to do on his placement

at a restaurant and he did it in nothing flat.

He had this absolute block sometimes. Or, I don't know. After we

burst through the block, he

understands it perfectly. He does this with both me and his dad.

You should have seen the

issue over whether a brick and sponge of the same mass have the same

volume.

He has this thing about steps to solving a problem. He doesn't

think they should exist.

He likes to figure out if there can be shortcuts to *everything*.

He expects knowledge to

leap out of a book and into his head.

He also expects shoes to magically place themselves on his feet, but

that's another post.

Jackie

[Guest guest]

On Feb 8, 2006, at 10:30 AM, Rose wrote:

>

> you also wrote: He also expects shoes to magically appear on his

> feet. My son will open the refrigerator to look for the catchup.

> not move anything and say " its not there " you need to buy more.

> same thing with his clothes, shoes, anything he needs that's not in

> clear site.

>

>

>

>

That explains DH, too, though. Seriously, he was frantic

yesterday morning because he couldn't find his laptop. Looked in

his car, nope. Looked in the family room next to the other computer,

nope.

Started to literally sweat. Where was it? On the kitchen chair,

where it almost always is. My jacket was draped over the chair, as

it usually is.

He also asked where his medicine was. (This is hubby, not kid.) He

forgot to take it Monday, even though the intense pain in his back

shoulda jogged his memory. So I brought it to him at work.

I put it in my jacket, but was pretty sure I took it out and put it

in our pharmacy container in the kitchen. He went to take it

yesterday and asked where it was. I was puzzled that it wasn't in

my pocket,

and it wasn't in the basket. Except it *was* in the basket, he just

hadn't bothered to even look. There's not *that* many bottles in

there.

Can't find it unless it falls into their outstretched hand.

Jackie

[Guest guest]

LOL, I can't believe someone else has experienced this same thing.

But, can you explain the " Block " thing? why this happens, what causes it?

why they can snap out of it and focus again? If it's neurological, then how can

they get " unblocked " ? Sorry for all the " why questions? " but you just described

the same things I'm experiencing with my son. I've heard of the " block " used

many times but it was never explained. You sound like your going through so

much, so helpful for your family & still a fun person! with a great personality!

- Rose

Jackie Geipel <jackie@...> wrote:

On Feb 8, 2006, at 10:30 AM, Rose wrote:

>

> you also wrote: He also expects shoes to magically appear on his

> feet. My son will open the refrigerator to look for the catchup.

> not move anything and say " its not there " you need to buy more.

> same thing with his clothes, shoes, anything he needs that's not in

> clear site.

>

>

>

>

That explains DH, too, though. Seriously, he was frantic

yesterday morning because he couldn't find his laptop. Looked in

his car, nope. Looked in the family room next to the other computer,

nope.

Started to literally sweat. Where was it? On the kitchen chair,

where it almost always is. My jacket was draped over the chair, as

it usually is.

He also asked where his medicine was. (This is hubby, not kid.) He

forgot to take it Monday, even though the intense pain in his back

shoulda jogged his memory. So I brought it to him at work.

I put it in my jacket, but was pretty sure I took it out and put it

in our pharmacy container in the kitchen. He went to take it

yesterday and asked where it was. I was puzzled that it wasn't in

my pocket,

and it wasn't in the basket. Except it *was* in the basket, he just

hadn't bothered to even look. There's not *that* many bottles in

there.

Can't find it unless it falls into their outstretched hand.

Jackie

[Guest guest]

Have you ever forgot a person name or what something is called and think and

think on it ,, it does not come to you.. Then u walk away and all of a

sudden you have it??? That is how it is with them ,, seems like it shuts

that part up like a door and when u walk off or go on to something else the

door swings open that prob not much clearer then, blocked but that is how

it is..like a foot ball player is blocked by the other team and then the man

moves a little and wham it is unblocked and he can move thru or around him.

Sometimes wonder if it is a from of stress that caused the block in them or

us..

Jeannie with sendoutcards

www.KidsNmeGreetings.com

¸...¸ __/ /\_\

,·´º o`·,/__/ _/\_ \

```)¨(´´´ | | | | | | | || | | |

¸,.-²°´ ¸,.-·~·~·-.,¸ `°·-. :º°

As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord

-- Re: ( ) Does he argue with me for fun? (long)

LOL, I can't believe someone else has experienced this same thing.

But, can you explain the " Block " thing? why this happens, what causes it?

why they can snap out of it and focus again? If it's neurological, then

how can they get " unblocked " ? Sorry for all the " why questions? " but you

just described the same things I'm experiencing with my son. I've heard of

the " block " used many times but it was never explained. You sound like your

going through so much, so helpful for your family & still a fun person! with

a great personality! - Rose

Jackie Geipel <jackie@...> wrote:

On Feb 8, 2006, at 10:30 AM, Rose wrote:

>

> you also wrote: He also expects shoes to magically appear on his

> feet. My son will open the refrigerator to look for the catchup.

> not move anything and say " its not there " you need to buy more.

> same thing with his clothes, shoes, anything he needs that's not in

> clear site.

>

>

>

>

That explains DH, too, though. Seriously, he was frantic

yesterday morning because he couldn't find his laptop. Looked in

his car, nope. Looked in the family room next to the other computer,

nope.

Started to literally sweat. Where was it? On the kitchen chair,

where it almost always is. My jacket was draped over the chair, as

it usually is.

He also asked where his medicine was. (This is hubby, not kid.) He

forgot to take it Monday, even though the intense pain in his back

shoulda jogged his memory. So I brought it to him at work.

I put it in my jacket, but was pretty sure I took it out and put it

in our pharmacy container in the kitchen. He went to take it

yesterday and asked where it was. I was puzzled that it wasn't in

my pocket,

and it wasn't in the basket. Except it *was* in the basket, he just

hadn't bothered to even look. There's not *that* many bottles in

there.

Can't find it unless it falls into their outstretched hand.

Jackie

[Guest guest]

But you know as well as I do how hard it is to plow through that block. The

tantrums, the blame (it's you! you don't understand!) the crying and just like

that, its over & we are focused again. It does seem just like you explained it.

sounds so simple but very hard. That must be so frustrating for someone to have

that " block " . good point about woundering if its the stress that causes it.

(something to think about). Thanks for explaining - Rose

Jeannie <kidsnme@...> wrote: Have you ever forgot a person name

or what something is called and think and

think on it ,, it does not come to you.. Then u walk away and all of a

sudden you have it??? That is how it is with them ,, seems like it shuts

that part up like a door and when u walk off or go on to something else the

door swings open that prob not much clearer then, blocked but that is how

it is..like a foot ball player is blocked by the other team and then the man

moves a little and wham it is unblocked and he can move thru or around him.

Sometimes wonder if it is a from of stress that caused the block in them or

us..

Jeannie with sendoutcards

www.KidsNmeGreetings.com

¸...¸ __/ /\_\

,·´º o`·,/__/ _/\_ \

```)¨(´´´ | | | | | | | || | | |

¸,.-²°´ ¸,.-·~·~·-.,¸ `°·-. :º°

As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord

-- Re: ( ) Does he argue with me for fun? (long)

LOL, I can't believe someone else has experienced this same thing.

But, can you explain the " Block " thing? why this happens, what causes it?

why they can snap out of it and focus again? If it's neurological, then

how can they get " unblocked " ? Sorry for all the " why questions? " but you

just described the same things I'm experiencing with my son. I've heard of

the " block " used many times but it was never explained. You sound like your

going through so much, so helpful for your family & still a fun person! with

a great personality! - Rose

Jackie Geipel <jackie@...> wrote:

On Feb 8, 2006, at 10:30 AM, Rose wrote:

>

> you also wrote: He also expects shoes to magically appear on his

> feet. My son will open the refrigerator to look for the catchup.

> not move anything and say " its not there " you need to buy more.

> same thing with his clothes, shoes, anything he needs that's not in

> clear site.

>

>

>

>

That explains DH, too, though. Seriously, he was frantic

yesterday morning because he couldn't find his laptop. Looked in

his car, nope. Looked in the family room next to the other computer,

nope.

Started to literally sweat. Where was it? On the kitchen chair,

where it almost always is. My jacket was draped over the chair, as

it usually is.

He also asked where his medicine was. (This is hubby, not kid.) He

forgot to take it Monday, even though the intense pain in his back

shoulda jogged his memory. So I brought it to him at work.

I put it in my jacket, but was pretty sure I took it out and put it

in our pharmacy container in the kitchen. He went to take it

yesterday and asked where it was. I was puzzled that it wasn't in

my pocket,

and it wasn't in the basket. Except it *was* in the basket, he just

hadn't bothered to even look. There's not *that* many bottles in

there.

Can't find it unless it falls into their outstretched hand.

Jackie

[Guest guest]

On Feb 8, 2006, at 11:50 AM, Rose wrote:

> LOL, I can't believe someone else has experienced this same thing.

> But, can you explain the " Block " thing? why this happens, what

> causes it?

I wish I knew! My other son doesn't seem to go through it. (Or not

in the same way.)

He went through a huge meltdown earlier this year because he didn't

advance

in a completely-optional-not-even-for-extra-credit Julius Caesar

thing at school.

The one day he had to really memorize this Shakespeare blurb, he chose

not to do it, even after I told him that day was the day. So he

didn't get chosen

to proceed in this contest. Major meltdown at school, major

meltdown at home.

I just sat in my bedroom doorway and kept talking very calmly to

him. He

was in self-loathing mode, but also other stuff. He catches himself

from

saying " you don't love me " anymore.

But then, just as like a switch went off, he stopped and said he wanted

to go downstairs and eat something. And was fine from then on.

I am like WHAT?

The thing is that when he gets whatever it is, he doesn't just get

one step, he

understands the whole thing and could probably teach it, too.

It doesn't happen very often anymore, it used to happen *every* night

over homework.

I actually had a dream about it last night. LOL

On a happy note, I never got information intended for parents about a

biography

project my 4th grader is doing. His oral report is today and he

didn't start

it until last night. He had done the research and I had to email the

teacher

for information about guidelines for the oral report. There weren't

many.

He just sat down and wrote out his cards, they were in logical order,

and he had good info! He has to be careful to talk slowly so his

annunciation

doesn't suffer. I had him rewrite two sentences and add two that he

didn't include

from his research. But he just knew what to do. Whether he copied

those

statements word for word from a book is not something I am going to be

concerned about this time.

Jackie

[Guest guest]

NOw that one of my sons is older (18) he tries to figure it out and says it

is most frustrating and even comes to tears over it..but he is learning to

re focus on something else for a time and then he is OK

Jeannie with sendoutcards

www.KidsNmeGreetings.com

¸...¸ __/ /\_\

,·´º o`·,/__/ _/\_ \

```)¨(´´´ | | | | | | | || | | |

¸,.-²°´ ¸,.-·~·~·-.,¸ `°·-. :º°

As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord

-- Re: ( ) Does he argue with me for fun? (long)

LOL, I can't believe someone else has experienced this same thing.

But, can you explain the " Block " thing? why this happens, what causes it?

why they can snap out of it and focus again? If it's neurological, then

how can they get " unblocked " ? Sorry for all the " why questions? " but you

just described the same things I'm experiencing with my son. I've heard of

the " block " used many times but it was never explained. You sound like your

going through so much, so helpful for your family & still a fun person! with

a great personality! - Rose

Jackie Geipel <jackie@...> wrote:

On Feb 8, 2006, at 10:30 AM, Rose wrote:

>

> you also wrote: He also expects shoes to magically appear on his

> feet. My son will open the refrigerator to look for the catchup.

> not move anything and say " its not there " you need to buy more.

> same thing with his clothes, shoes, anything he needs that's not in

> clear site.

>

>

>

>

That explains DH, too, though. Seriously, he was frantic

yesterday morning because he couldn't find his laptop. Looked in

his car, nope. Looked in the family room next to the other computer,

nope.

Started to literally sweat. Where was it? On the kitchen chair,

where it almost always is. My jacket was draped over the chair, as

it usually is.

He also asked where his medicine was. (This is hubby, not kid.) He

forgot to take it Monday, even though the intense pain in his back

shoulda jogged his memory. So I brought it to him at work.

I put it in my jacket, but was pretty sure I took it out and put it

in our pharmacy container in the kitchen. He went to take it

yesterday and asked where it was. I was puzzled that it wasn't in

my pocket,

and it wasn't in the basket. Except it *was* in the basket, he just

hadn't bothered to even look. There's not *that* many bottles in

there.

Can't find it unless it falls into their outstretched hand.

Jackie

[Guest guest]

I was trying hard not to ask any more questions on this " block " issue. but that

is good to hear that your son can re focus on something else, then he is O.K.

My question would of been: could an (AS) person get through the block himself

and focus again without intervention? as they get older, do they realize they

are (stuck) are in the (block) state? All this is helpful for me so that I can

help my son better. thanks. - Rose

Jeannie <kidsnme@...> wrote: NOw that one of my sons is older

(18) he tries to figure it out and says it

is most frustrating and even comes to tears over it..but he is learning to

re focus on something else for a time and then he is OK

Jeannie with sendoutcards

www.KidsNmeGreetings.com

¸...¸ __/ /\_\

,·´º o`·,/__/ _/\_ \

```)¨(´´´ | | | | | | | || | | |

¸,.-²°´ ¸,.-·~·~·-.,¸ `°·-. :º°

As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord

-- Re: ( ) Does he argue with me for fun? (long)

LOL, I can't believe someone else has experienced this same thing.

But, can you explain the " Block " thing? why this happens, what causes it?

why they can snap out of it and focus again? If it's neurological, then

how can they get " unblocked " ? Sorry for all the " why questions? " but you

just described the same things I'm experiencing with my son. I've heard of

the " block " used many times but it was never explained. You sound like your

going through so much, so helpful for your family & still a fun person! with

a great personality! - Rose

Jackie Geipel <jackie@...> wrote:

On Feb 8, 2006, at 10:30 AM, Rose wrote:

>

> you also wrote: He also expects shoes to magically appear on his

> feet. My son will open the refrigerator to look for the catchup.

> not move anything and say " its not there " you need to buy more.

> same thing with his clothes, shoes, anything he needs that's not in

> clear site.

>

>

>

>

That explains DH, too, though. Seriously, he was frantic

yesterday morning because he couldn't find his laptop. Looked in

his car, nope. Looked in the family room next to the other computer,

nope.

Started to literally sweat. Where was it? On the kitchen chair,

where it almost always is. My jacket was draped over the chair, as

it usually is.

He also asked where his medicine was. (This is hubby, not kid.) He

forgot to take it Monday, even though the intense pain in his back

shoulda jogged his memory. So I brought it to him at work.

I put it in my jacket, but was pretty sure I took it out and put it

in our pharmacy container in the kitchen. He went to take it

yesterday and asked where it was. I was puzzled that it wasn't in

my pocket,

and it wasn't in the basket. Except it *was* in the basket, he just

hadn't bothered to even look. There's not *that* many bottles in

there.

Can't find it unless it falls into their outstretched hand.

Jackie

[Guest guest]

That is what I am wondering. Unfortunately at this point, DS is not

motivated to do anything on his own. Everything needs to be directed.

Compliance is uneven. (Causing me great angst this morning!) I

don't know if I am doing more harm than good by making him stick with

things.

And I do change my methods of explanation if the common way isn't

getting through. If I am direct, you wants the road less traveled.

If I go

off on a tangent, he wants the straight way. Can't please him.

Jackie

On Feb 8, 2006, at 2:34 PM, Rose wrote:

> My question would of been: could an (AS) person get through the

> block himself and focus again without intervention? as they get

> older, do they realize they are (stuck) are in the (block) state?

>

[Guest guest]

When you said, " I don't know if I'm doing more harm than good " . I would say you

are doing good! if you didn't do what you have been doing with your son, how

would he move on & learn? you also mentioned in your other post, when you get

passed that block its OK. What if you didn't get passed that block. Your son

would miss out on learning something. you said: " he is not motivated to do

anything on his own " Everything needs to be directed " . Right now, that's the

" support " he needs to learn. I can't leave my son either and say: Do your

spelling words. on the paper, he would draw a dragon battling with a monster.

lol. so, we do homework together. When its complete, I'll say, let me see you

draw a dragon " which he loves " . Keep up the good work & if you can keep me

posted. I'm interested on hearing how you got passed a block/the strategies you

have used. - Rose

Jackie Geipel <jackie@...> wrote:

That is what I am wondering. Unfortunately at this point, DS is not

motivated to do anything on his own. Everything needs to be directed.

Compliance is uneven. (Causing me great angst this morning!) I

don't know if I am doing more harm than good by making him stick with

things.

And I do change my methods of explanation if the common way isn't

getting through. If I am direct, you wants the road less traveled.

If I go

off on a tangent, he wants the straight way. Can't please him.

Jackie

On Feb 8, 2006, at 2:34 PM, Rose wrote:

> My question would of been: could an (AS) person get through the

> block himself and focus again without intervention? as they get

> older, do they realize they are (stuck) are in the (block) state?

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Dawn,

We have that with the spelling words, the words he can verbally spell, he will

get it wrong when he writes it. wow. an again he will get it wrong when he

puts it into a sentence. the different transitions with the same word is a

challenge for him. retaining the words is another issue. But like everything

else we will get past that too. We had this problem with math. but we did find a

strategy worked, connected & he is doing well with math. We have not found

anything that has helped with reading, spelling & writing. I have never know

there were so many strategies out their to help with this. so, we are still

searching for one that connects. - Rose

Dawn <natesmom2000@...> wrote:

You know (coming out of lurking)....my 5yr old son does this when thinking

about things we practice. He has 2 speech sheets that are almost identical.

There are about 3 questions the same on both. " Name 3 tools " for instance.

On one sheet he knows it and on the next there is that block. I give him

little clues but sometimes he melts right down about it. Then when you flip

to the sheet prior and say " Just like on this sheet " he gets it no problem.

It was interesting to read that about another child!

~ Dawn

-- Re: ( ) Does he argue with me for fun? (long)

LOL, I can't believe someone else has experienced this same thing.

But, can you explain the " Block " thing? why this happens, what causes it?

why they can snap out of it and focus again? If it's neurological, then

how can they get " unblocked " ? Sorry for all the " why questions? " but you

just described the same things I'm experiencing with my son. I've heard of

the " block " used many times but it was never explained. You sound like your

going through so much, so helpful for your family & still a fun person! with

a great personality! - Rose

Jackie Geipel <jackie@...> wrote:

On Feb 8, 2006, at 10:30 AM, Rose wrote:

>

> you also wrote: He also expects shoes to magically appear on his

> feet. My son will open the refrigerator to look for the catchup.

> not move anything and say " its not there " you need to buy more.

> same thing with his clothes, shoes, anything he needs that's not in

> clear site.

>

>

>

>

That explains DH, too, though. Seriously, he was frantic

yesterday morning because he couldn't find his laptop. Looked in

his car, nope. Looked in the family room next to the other computer,

nope.

Started to literally sweat. Where was it? On the kitchen chair,

where it almost always is. My jacket was draped over the chair, as

it usually is.

He also asked where his medicine was. (This is hubby, not kid.) He

forgot to take it Monday, even though the intense pain in his back

shoulda jogged his memory. So I brought it to him at work.

I put it in my jacket, but was pretty sure I took it out and put it

in our pharmacy container in the kitchen. He went to take it

yesterday and asked where it was. I was puzzled that it wasn't in

my pocket,

and it wasn't in the basket. Except it *was* in the basket, he just

hadn't bothered to even look. There's not *that* many bottles in

there.

Can't find it unless it falls into their outstretched hand.

Jackie

[Guest guest]

You know (coming out of lurking)....my 5yr old son does this when thinking

about things we practice. He has 2 speech sheets that are almost identical.

There are about 3 questions the same on both. " Name 3 tools " for instance.

On one sheet he knows it and on the next there is that block. I give him

little clues but sometimes he melts right down about it. Then when you flip

to the sheet prior and say " Just like on this sheet " he gets it no problem.

It was interesting to read that about another child!

~ Dawn

-- Re: ( ) Does he argue with me for fun? (long)

LOL, I can't believe someone else has experienced this same thing.

But, can you explain the " Block " thing? why this happens, what causes it?

why they can snap out of it and focus again? If it's neurological, then

how can they get " unblocked " ? Sorry for all the " why questions? " but you

just described the same things I'm experiencing with my son. I've heard of

the " block " used many times but it was never explained. You sound like your

going through so much, so helpful for your family & still a fun person! with

a great personality! - Rose

Jackie Geipel <jackie@...> wrote:

On Feb 8, 2006, at 10:30 AM, Rose wrote:

>

> you also wrote: He also expects shoes to magically appear on his

> feet. My son will open the refrigerator to look for the catchup.

> not move anything and say " its not there " you need to buy more.

> same thing with his clothes, shoes, anything he needs that's not in

> clear site.

>

>

>

>

That explains DH, too, though. Seriously, he was frantic

yesterday morning because he couldn't find his laptop. Looked in

his car, nope. Looked in the family room next to the other computer,

nope.

Started to literally sweat. Where was it? On the kitchen chair,

where it almost always is. My jacket was draped over the chair, as

it usually is.

He also asked where his medicine was. (This is hubby, not kid.) He

forgot to take it Monday, even though the intense pain in his back

shoulda jogged his memory. So I brought it to him at work.

I put it in my jacket, but was pretty sure I took it out and put it

in our pharmacy container in the kitchen. He went to take it

yesterday and asked where it was. I was puzzled that it wasn't in

my pocket,

and it wasn't in the basket. Except it *was* in the basket, he just

hadn't bothered to even look. There's not *that* many bottles in

there.

Can't find it unless it falls into their outstretched hand.

Jackie