Re: Re: No link from vaccines

February 3, 2006

If it was just autism or just vaccinations, I would be leary. But

it's diabetes

and cancer and heart disease and everything that I've heard doctors

and the

FDA are hiding information, treatments, cures. That's A LOT of

people!

ly, I don't think that big of a group would be that capable of such

a large scale conspiracy operation. After all, (as my sister says) the

government can barely get the mail delivered, and that's pretty

straight forward.

What I find interesting is that even within the alt/comp/DAN! world,

they

also have more than several different theories about the cause/

treatment/cure of autism.

I think it is within the realm of possibility that some people are

especially sensitive

to mercury or other environmental elements. But I get a little

itchy when people

try to tell me that it's the only reason, and that it obviously

applies to my children, too. LOL

I actually had someone declare that my child had digestive problems

that I didn't

know about/remember from toddlerhood. My kids were in diapers until

a good 4 years old.

I saw everything that came out of their bodies. I woulda

remembered....LOL

JMO,

Jackie

On Feb 3, 2006, at 9:40 AM, LJL wrote:

> Again, you should be suspicious of the source. Was it not doctors

> that

> encouraged the smoking of cigarettes at one time in our history?

>

> If you look deeply at where physicians have invested their monies, it

> is in pharmaceutical companies.

February 3, 2006

,

Since when did doctors recommend we smoke? That is new for me...

Also, I have a hard time believing doctors know about a potential problem

such as vaccines and then huddle together and keep the secret for everyone

so that they can make money. Yes, I think some drugs are over-prescribed,

but there is no way I can believe a doctor would withhold information about

something that harms kids. Do you realize what a massive secret that would

have to be? Every person with information would have to swear never to tell

anyone? I don't believe it.

( ) Re: No link from vaccines

> Again, you should be suspicious of the source. Was it not doctors that

> encouraged the smoking of cigarettes at one time in our history?

>

> If you look deeply at where physicians have invested their monies, it

> is in pharmaceutical companies. I mean, why would you not invest in

> where money will grow? At the same time, you are going to want to

> protect your interests, and vaccine lawsuits would wipe out many pharm

> companies.

>

> I have a hard time believing many sites - on both sides of the issue.

> I am always suspicious of who is funding the site.

>

>>

>> Good article from WebMD:

>>

>> http://www.webmd.com/content/article/93/102468.htm

>>

>

February 4, 2006

On Feb 4, 2006, at 7:35 PM, LJL wrote:

> I don't hate doctors. I

> just believe they are ignorant on what is causing the tremendous

> increase in asthma, childhood leukemia, and learning disabilities in

> our children.

And they admit they're ignorant, at least from what I understand.

Are you saying others *do* know what

is causing the increase in all those conditions?

I don't know. I think I would rather someone tell me " I don't know

what it is " then give me some

theory about it, then try to prove it with information that looks

like it proves it, but only shows

a correlation.

Jackie

February 5, 2006

In a message dated 2/3/2006 10:37:21 AM Eastern Standard Time,

jackie@... writes:

I actually had someone declare that my child had digestive problems

that I didn't

know about/remember from toddlerhood. My kids were in diapers until

a good 4 years old.

I saw everything that came out of their bodies. I woulda

remembered....LOL

JMO,

Jackie

Once I had someone insist I had to do the diet because my son's hair was

" coarse " and her son's hair used to be coarse also and now it's not. Well, her

son's hair was still coarse. And mine kids hair just looked bad because he

cut it, had to have a buzz cut and it was growing out. Since it's curly hair,

it grows out funny looking. But it was the same hair as before, no diet

necessary.

Roxanna ô¿ö

Autism Happens

February 5, 2006

In a message dated 2/4/2006 10:58:58 AM Eastern Standard Time,

brian.jonson@... writes:

Also, I have a hard time believing doctors know about a potential problem

such as vaccines and then huddle together and keep the secret for everyone

so that they can make money. Yes, I think some drugs are over-prescribed,

but there is no way I can believe a doctor would withhold information about

something that harms kids. Do you realize what a massive secret that would

have to be? Every person with information would have to swear never to tell

anyone? I don't believe it.

me neither.

Roxanna ô¿ö

Autism Happens

February 5, 2006

This article is hard to dismiss as rhetoric, written by R.F.Kennedy, in reguards

to his own investigations, I posted it before, but I think it may have been

overlooked.

http://stevens_mom.tripod.com/id12.html

Theresa

LJL <laura6307@...> wrote:

Oh, no, I don't believe they 'know'. The ones that have come to

believe a link become part of alternative practices, like the one I

went to in Chicago called Homefirst - MD's who believe in vaccine

dangers.

I had one doctor try and convince me there is no link between

vaccines and autism. When I asked what caused autism, then, he

answered that he did not know, but it was no vaccines. If you don't

know, you don't know. I am at least willing to consider the fact

that vaccines have nothing to do with the increase in childhood

problems.

For doctors to actually admit that vaccines 'might' be linked -

well, that would be irresponsible as far as they are concerned

because then a huge number of people would not vaccinate - and

without complete proof - that would open another pandora's box.

> And they admit they're ignorant, at least from what I

understand.

> Are you saying others *do* know what

> is causing the increase in all those conditions?

>

> I don't know. I think I would rather someone tell me " I don't

know

> what it is " then give me some

> theory about it, then try to prove it with information that looks

> like it proves it, but only shows

> a correlation.

>

> Jackie

February 5, 2006

On Feb 5, 2006, at 9:57 AM, LJL wrote:

>

> I had one doctor try and convince me there is no link between

> vaccines and autism. When I asked what caused autism, then, he

> answered that he did not know, but it was no vaccines. If you don't

> know, you don't know.

I think it's easier to determine what probably *isn't* a cause than

to identify a specific or combination of causes, KWIM?

They debunked the whole refrigerator mother theory, didn't they?

I have a medical problem, in which sometimes there is a " cause " and

sometimes it just sorta happens. They ruled out all the most obvious

probable causes. Then the doct, at least for now, determined it was

just something

that just happened. Considering they couldn't find anything specific,

there is a basic method of treatment, which I am undertaking.

If any other complications come up, we may revisit more tests.

There is something related, but different, that it may be.

Still, the treatment won't differ much. And this is something they

could measure objectively. Even if it always boils down to

" genetics " , that's what they know. They don't know why it

affected me and not my brother....

I don't think it's a matter of completely discounting a theory down to

zero. But it's a matter of where to place the collective eggs from

our basket.

Sure, I believe there are vaccine-injured kids.

Sure, I believe there are kids affected by food allergies and

sensitivities.

Sure. I believe there are kids with other metabolic issues.

But it's not 1:1 related to autism. Not even close. If the theory

doesn't

fit a particular parent's situation with reasonable inquiry, go on to

something else.

I do have a RL friend whose autistic (Kanner's) son has had digestive

issues since

birth. So she is working with a DAN! doctor, as it makes more sense

for her.

And as always, I would be THRILLED if someone could prove me wrong

about my skepticism.

But they will have to go about it via the scientific method and

controlled clinical trials.

Jackie

February 5, 2006

Exactly. It doesn't work for everybody.

Some places you can't even get your kid into school without vaccines...and I

prefer not to lie about it. Not worth it for so many reasons.

I too would like to see some truely neutral, not financially profit-driven

research done on BOTH sides of the issue.

( ) Re: No link from vaccines

I would like research done that is not funded in any way by people on

either side of the issue. Both sides have money involved.

For example, if you do not vaccinate, and if you do abandon maistream

care, what are you left with? You are left with a bunch of very

expensive alternative medicine. Some of these alternative doctors

appear just as financially motivated as some mainstream docs.

Everybody swears by something - Nana Juice (spelling?) or homeopathy

or certain expensive vitamins and minerals.

One of my favorite sites - www.mercola.com - is still a moneymaker for

alternative care. I know that, even though I tend to believe stuff

posted there.

I'd really like there to be some focus on the completely unvaccinated,

but our subgroup has been made to feel like we are endangering our

children and the lives of all Americans that many of us are buried -

lying to our family and friends that our children are vaccinated - to

escape threats of CPS.

We are one of the fortunate ones for whom diet worked. Our son had

all the classic GI symptoms, though, and while his autistic symptoms

are much, much less than they were pre-diet, he is not 'cured',

although if you met him you would not think autism. When he gets

exposed to casein and/or gluten he becomes unfocused and styms. We

would love to not be on this diet, but even using enzymes did not help

us. So, we are great believers in it - for our family. It simply is

not feasible for most people.

February 5, 2006

On Feb 5, 2006, at 10:24 AM, Theresa Harding wrote:

> This article is hard to dismiss as rhetoric, written by

> R.F.Kennedy, in reguards to his own investigations, I posted it

> before, but I think it may have been overlooked.

>

> http://stevens_mom.tripod.com/id12.html

>

Guess it depends on which blog you read...

http://oracknows.blogspot.com/2005/06/saloncom-flushes-its-

credibility-down.html

http://www.neurodiversity.com/autism_vaccine_controversy.html

Jackie

February 5, 2006

http://stevens_mom.tripod.com/id12.html Is not a blog. It is a report done by

RFK following actual research he did himself, I wouldn't have posted a blog.

Theresa

Jackie Geipel <jackie@...> wrote:

On Feb 5, 2006, at 10:24 AM, Theresa Harding wrote:

> This article is hard to dismiss as rhetoric, written by

> R.F.Kennedy, in reguards to his own investigations, I posted it

> before, but I think it may have been overlooked.

>

> http://stevens_mom.tripod.com/id12.html

>

Guess it depends on which blog you read...

http://oracknows.blogspot.com/2005/06/saloncom-flushes-its-

credibility-down.html

http://www.neurodiversity.com/autism_vaccine_controversy.html

Jackie

February 5, 2006

Ok, folks, someone explain to me why there are pockets of the country that

have higher than normal incidences of autism if vaccines are the cause?

Also, please imagine what it would be like to see rows of children in iron

lungs. Thank God for modern vaccines.

Re: ( ) Re: No link from vaccines

> This article is hard to dismiss as rhetoric, written by R.F.Kennedy, in

> reguards to his own investigations, I posted it before, but I think it may

> have been overlooked.

>

> http://stevens_mom.tripod.com/id12.html

>

> Theresa

>

> LJL <laura6307@...> wrote:

> Oh, no, I don't believe they 'know'. The ones that have come to

> believe a link become part of alternative practices, like the one I

> went to in Chicago called Homefirst - MD's who believe in vaccine

> dangers.

>

> I had one doctor try and convince me there is no link between

> vaccines and autism. When I asked what caused autism, then, he

> answered that he did not know, but it was no vaccines. If you don't

> know, you don't know. I am at least willing to consider the fact

> that vaccines have nothing to do with the increase in childhood

> problems.

>

> For doctors to actually admit that vaccines 'might' be linked -

> well, that would be irresponsible as far as they are concerned

> because then a huge number of people would not vaccinate - and

> without complete proof - that would open another pandora's box.

>

>> And they admit they're ignorant, at least from what I

> understand.

>> Are you saying others *do* know what

>> is causing the increase in all those conditions?

>>

>> I don't know. I think I would rather someone tell me " I don't

> know

>> what it is " then give me some

>> theory about it, then try to prove it with information that looks

>> like it proves it, but only shows

>> a correlation.

>>

>> Jackie

>

February 5, 2006

I was referring to whether you take Kennedy's letter as the truth.

There are plenty of reasons to question its authority. The blogs

I linked have plenty of references to other research, done by other

people.

And posted in journals, not Salon or Rolling Stone.

Jackie

On Feb 5, 2006, at 7:42 PM, Theresa Harding wrote:

> http://stevens_mom.tripod.com/id12.html Is not a blog. It is a

> report done by RFK following actual research he did himself, I

> wouldn't have posted a blog.

>

> Theresa

>

February 5, 2006

I don't believe that vaccines are the sole cause of autism, but I do believe

that thimerosal (which is no longer in vaccines) was a contributing factor in

the rise of autism in some cases. Vaccines were not the only way my son had

mercury introduced into his body,as a baby he also had chronic ear and eye

infections, and I later found out that the drops rx'd to him also contained

mercury. I also believe, that no matter what research is done, or who it is done

by, if it results in this theory being true, we will never find out about it as

proof positive, because if the big pharma's were ever held responsible, the

damage would be so astronomical, that our health care system could not withstand

the financial ramifications. That being said, I do believe that vaccines are

beneficial, without the thimerosal. I also wonder, that with all the technology

we now have, why hasn't there been anything cured since polio? My sister

coordinates medical studies and trials for some of the pharmas, she

is a private contractor, and there have been occasions that they have found

cures for some types of cancers for instance, and the pharma's will trash the

medications if they have a potential for a significant loss of revenue. I

understand they are in business to make money, but at what cost? I realize that

there are some medications that are beneficial, but there are only medications

to bandage the symptoms, no cures, my son is on many medications for his AS,

and they do help manage his aggressive behaviors. I also believe that this

country is extremely over medicated, and too dependent on a quick fix . It's no

big secret that our health care system could use a make-over. I tend not to give

much weight to research and studies done by the government, paid for by the very

companies whose products are being scrutinized.

Theresa

..net> wrote:

Ok, folks, someone explain to me why there are pockets of the country that

have higher than normal incidences of autism if vaccines are the cause?

Also, please imagine what it would be like to see rows of children in iron

lungs. Thank God for modern vaccines.

Re: ( ) Re: No link from vaccines

> This article is hard to dismiss as rhetoric, written by R.F.Kennedy, in

> reguards to his own investigations, I posted it before, but I think it may

> have been overlooked.

>

> http://stevens_mom.tripod.com/id12.html

>

> Theresa

>

> LJL <laura6307@...> wrote:

> Oh, no, I don't believe they 'know'. The ones that have come to

> believe a link become part of alternative practices, like the one I

> went to in Chicago called Homefirst - MD's who believe in vaccine

> dangers.

>

> I had one doctor try and convince me there is no link between

> vaccines and autism. When I asked what caused autism, then, he

> answered that he did not know, but it was no vaccines. If you don't

> know, you don't know. I am at least willing to consider the fact

> that vaccines have nothing to do with the increase in childhood

> problems.

>

> For doctors to actually admit that vaccines 'might' be linked -

> well, that would be irresponsible as far as they are concerned

> because then a huge number of people would not vaccinate - and

> without complete proof - that would open another pandora's box.

>

>> And they admit they're ignorant, at least from what I

> understand.

>> Are you saying others *do* know what

>> is causing the increase in all those conditions?

>>

>> I don't know. I think I would rather someone tell me " I don't

> know

>> what it is " then give me some

>> theory about it, then try to prove it with information that looks

>> like it proves it, but only shows

>> a correlation.

>>

>> Jackie

>

February 6, 2006

On Feb 5, 2006, at 11:01 PM, Theresa Harding wrote:

> I also wonder, that with all the technology we now have, why

> hasn't there been anything cured since polio?

>

Because the human body is an incredibly complex mechanism?

But they have found a cure for some ulcers. They made huge gains in

the treatment of chronic conditions.

Not as good as cure, but better than having the conditions kill

you. They have made significant gains

in the treatment for some cancers, particularly childhood cancers.

The 5-year survival rate for all cancers has doubled in

the last 40 years. Cancer is a vicious disease, unfortunately, but

it's not that people are sitting on their thumbs.

To cure the disease, you need to treat it. So they continually work

on treatments that are strong enough to

kill the disease. And they are making strides towards improved

quality of life, even when undergoing treatment.

The nurse I had the last time I was in the hospital was currently

undergoing chemo for breast cancer.

I really thought I had no right to complain, she was technically in

worse shape than I was!

But she was pulling her 12 hours like no one's business. That's

pretty incredible.

Jackie

February 6, 2006

Hi ,

I would like to know the answer to your question, " Why there are pockets of

the country that have higher then normal incidences of autism?. " I read that

Staten Island, New York had the highest level of autism. sorry, didn't save

that article. Just thought that question was interesting, even if vaccines have

nothing to do with it. " good question " - Rose

Jonson <brian.jonson@...> wrote:

Ok, folks, someone explain to me why there are pockets of the country that

have higher than normal incidences of autism if vaccines are the cause?

Also, please imagine what it would be like to see rows of children in iron

lungs. Thank God for modern vaccines.

Re: ( ) Re: No link from vaccines

> This article is hard to dismiss as rhetoric, written by R.F.Kennedy, in

> reguards to his own investigations, I posted it before, but I think it may

> have been overlooked.

>

> http://stevens_mom.tripod.com/id12.html

>

> Theresa

>

> LJL <laura6307@...> wrote:

> Oh, no, I don't believe they 'know'. The ones that have come to

> believe a link become part of alternative practices, like the one I

> went to in Chicago called Homefirst - MD's who believe in vaccine

> dangers.

>

> I had one doctor try and convince me there is no link between

> vaccines and autism. When I asked what caused autism, then, he

> answered that he did not know, but it was no vaccines. If you don't

> know, you don't know. I am at least willing to consider the fact

> that vaccines have nothing to do with the increase in childhood

> problems.

>

> For doctors to actually admit that vaccines 'might' be linked -

> well, that would be irresponsible as far as they are concerned

> because then a huge number of people would not vaccinate - and

> without complete proof - that would open another pandora's box.

>

>> And they admit they're ignorant, at least from what I

> understand.

>> Are you saying others *do* know what

>> is causing the increase in all those conditions?

>>

>> I don't know. I think I would rather someone tell me " I don't

> know

>> what it is " then give me some

>> theory about it, then try to prove it with information that looks

>> like it proves it, but only shows

>> a correlation.

>>

>> Jackie

>

February 11, 2006

On Fri, 2006-02-03 at 20:02, Jonson wrote:

> ,

>

> Since when did doctors recommend we smoke? That is new for me...

>

> Also, I have a hard time believing doctors know about a potential

> problem

> such as vaccines and then huddle together and keep the secret for

> everyone

> so that they can make money. Yes, I think some drugs are

> over-prescribed,

> but there is no way I can believe a doctor would withhold information

> about

> something that harms kids. Do you realize what a massive secret that

> would

> have to be? Every person with information would have to swear never

> to tell

> anyone? I don't believe it.

** My son's allergist told me after his third major reaction (this time

he nearly went anapylactic) that my son should not have vaccines. So I

asked him if there was a test to determine exactly what he was allergic

to. The allergist told me that they'd have to know who the manufacterer

of the vaccine was. Then he said that that didn't guarentee that they

could determine exactly what my son was allergic to because doing the

test didn't mean that he would actually show positive in a skin test. He

also told me that in the cases of vaccines they never can determine

exactly what the child was allergic to.

I think that is pretty straightforwards... If the allergist cannot even

determine what in the vaccine (and he only had the tetnus shot it wasn't

like he had the MMR or any of the others) that pretty much sets it in

stone. I asked him about any other kind of vaccines and he told me that

since they couldn't even determine what exactly caused his reaction due

to the fact they couldn't test for every possible additive in the

vaccine and that some of the things in the vaccines aren't accounted

for... Well you see where I am going with this. I do not think every

doctor is even aware of what is IN the vaccines and I doubt many of them

feel inclined to ask as they tend to trust the manufacturers. It's not

until one of their patients has a reaction that they start to question

it and even in those cases many of the doctors do not report adverse

reactions and even fewer notice the reaction unless it ends with the

child in the hospital.

Like I said, the vaccines are russian roulette. My son's pediatrician

wasn't even able to find out what lot number etc that my son's vaccine

came from. That tells me something..

** **

>

> ______________________________________________________________________

February 11, 2006

I thought the lot numbers of vaccines had to be written down? On my DD shot

record it has the lot number on it.

<jett@...> wrote: