Valentina & other methylation experts

[Guest guest]

Our little girl has always been an undermethylator and responded well to TMG and

other methylators save for B12 and folinic acid. Early on methyl B12 caused

aggressive behavior (sudden pinching not seen before or since), hypertalking and

hyperactivity. We discontinued the B12.

We have done another trial with B12, with slightly different results now. No

aggressiveness, hypertalking or hyperactivity. I assume the improvements to be

from chelation.

But here is my question. In the beginning, before supplementing with methyl

donors e.g TMG, we had overemotional behavior i.e. weepiness over minor

incidents. The TMG certainly improved the mood. But not with the TMG and the B12

we are seeing a small increase in the overemoting again.

My question, finally is, can overmethylating someone cause the same mood

problems as someone who is undermethylated? Or do they need more methylators?

We are doing a trial or reducing the TMG thinking with the B12 she may no longer

need it, but wanted to see if anyone else might know the answer to this question

and help us be more certain as to the direction of the experiment.

TIA,

[Guest guest]

Hi Valentina:

I appreciate your attempts to assist me with understanding this. We do not have

any specific tests, but what I can say for sure is that she appears to have low

plasma cysteine, by the way she responds to diet and chelators. She can take as

many sulfur foods as you can give; milk, eggs, meat, broccoli and onions, no

negative reactions in the past to those, but who the heck knows, now may be too

much.

I think this is lessening as in the beginning she used to be much better on the

chelators(more proof she was low plasma cysteine and sulfur) and would even

lose some improvements when taken off them. Andy's recommendation to keep her on

the chelators longer, sometimes 5-7 days (he said as long as three weeks, but we

would have passed out) was certainly helpful in holding onto the improvements

we saw while on the chelators. Now, improvements are on or off or both as she

is pretty good now, language/cognition/abstract

thinking/empathy/attention/motivation/social are all within acceptable limits,

some much better than age levels, just working on the methylation problem. She

is now, by everyone's account, a pretty typical delightful/silly/ornery, soon

to be 5 year old.

And since she is so much better the improvements/problems are so much more

subtle that it gets a lot harder to point to something and find a causal

relationship. Not like in the beginning, when there would be a big surge of

language/behavior or problem with something that you could point to and

definitely say it was the chelator or a supplement. Could be we're watching too

closely as that is always a problem with these kids. If they did not have these

issues, some of this stuff would just be ignored. One thing we can say for sure

about our kids, they do not get ignored!

As to homocysteine, from bloodwork a month ago would be high as I understand the

markers for high homocysteine would be MCH and MCV which were high/normal, but

these levels came down after just one month on methyl B12, when we took the

ferritin levels. Objective proof she is absorbing it orally, as you said.

This is our second attempt with oral methyl b12. First was six months ago, bad,

aggressive, hypertalking all the time. Now no aggression, no hypertalking, just

the occasional overreaction to something that wouldn't have raised that level of

distress for her before. I guess the main question I have is it worth it to

push giving the higher level methyl B12 with the addition of more folic acid,

and/or the lowering of the TMG, or should we just reduce the amount of B12?

Thanks for continuing to work on the chart. I look forward to seeing it.

Re: [ ] Valentina & other methylation experts

,

Thank you for the " expert " title I really don't know, don't

understand about these things more than anybody else... Sometimes I feel

blind...

And BTW, I am still working at that " folic acid pathway " drawing. I am

just trying to research some more, to be able to give you as much

information as I can. Maybe I will have it done tomorrow.

> Our little girl has always been an undermethylator and responded well

> to TMG and other methylators save for B12 and folinic acid. Early on

> methyl B12 caused aggressive behavior

The only explanation I can think of is that B12 caused more Serotonin to

Melatonin conversion and maybe she got low in Serotonin?

Again, I don't really know, but I remember you saying that you suspect

she is low in Serotonin anyway?

Maybe the added B12 lowered Serotonin indirectly?

I think a lot of kids have " bad " reaction to B12 initially. My son did

too, for about 2 weeks, and after we stopped the B12 for a while and

then lowered the dose, he was fine. I am thinking that the body needs a

little time to adjust, just like with anything else...

> We have done another trial with B12, with slightly different results

> now. No aggressiveness, hypertalking or hyperactivity. I assume the

> improvements to be from chelation.

> But here is my question. In the beginning, before supplementing with

> methyl donors e.g TMG, we had overemotional behavior i.e. weepiness

> over minor incidents. The TMG certainly improved the mood. But not

> with the TMG and the B12 we are seeing a small increase in the

> overemoting again.

> My question, finally is, can overmethylating someone cause the same

> mood problems as someone who is undermethylated? Or do they need more

> methylators?

, do you know her plasma cysteine? Or homocysteine?

I think, in trying to help the " methylation process " a lot of people

forget about the sulfur that is so needed for so many processes in the

body. I certainly don't know the answer to your question. But there is

more to this than just methylation. You also have to consider how the

transulfuration pathway is affected when you give B12 and TMG. And in my

opinion this is very important.

What tests do you have? I would be interested if you know her sulfur

status.

What do you use for chelation? And how does she feel on the chelation

days?

Did you ever try epsom salt baths with her? How is she doing?

What about foods? Does she also become sensitive when she eats foods

high in sulfur?

I believe that a lot of our kids absorb B12 very well. We give high

amounts of B12 and not enough of other supplements. More SAMe will

influence the folate status. Also, some kids are low (or high) in

sulfur, which is also part of this " methylation pathway " and giving B12

and TMG will surely affect how much sulfur is available in the body for

things like sulfation or glutathione.

Also, as you say, chelation changes things. My son used to do great 3-4

years ago with TMG. Now he becomes too emotional when I give it.

It is interesting how methylation affects the neurotransmitters

(dopamine, serotonin, etc.). More SAMe means faster breaking down of

these neurotransmitters. This means less dopamine available for example.

I am sorry I cannot help you more, .

I would think that you can " overmethylate " an " undermethylator " ,

especially when we are talking about a small child. Maybe she is

growing, getting healthier and doesn't need that much supplementation

anymore.

Valentina

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