Guest guest Posted October 28, 2003 Report Share Posted October 28, 2003 >>>>Actually injury is a #1 reason NOT to do high reps. ---->LOL! i thought you might say that. >>>I obviously can't speak for your personal experience however heavy weight on a weak joint is a great way to recover proper function as a general rule. ------>oh really? i was wondering if i was just doing too much weight AND too many reps, rather than just too much weight. perhaps it's been the amount of reps that bother my knee all along. >>>For someone with a bad knee lunges would be ill advised regardless of reps or load simply because of the abberent position of the knee in said exercise. Squat is far more natural and normal a movement and in turn is much better for hurt knees, hips, ankles, etc... ----->i've been doing smith machine squats for many months now and it doesn't seem to bother my knee and i really love the movement more than any other exercise, so this is GOOD news to me! however, i'm doing 12-15 reps, which i think i'll cut back and do a bit more weight. the funny thing is...i've been WANTING to lift heavier weights and do fewer reps, but didn't want to totally stray from the regime that i only recently started, just to give it a chance. but i feel the urge to go higher in my weights often, and have to use self-discipline not to do so because i tell myself there's no way i'm going to be able to do 12 reps of THAT weight. maybe i'll cut back to 8. what do you think of doing 3-4 sets...too much? >>>With any injury you need to tread cautiously as you move forward. When I say heavy weights low reps I really should say heavIER weights and low reps. The load would simply be dictated by your knees tolerance and cooperation. ---->right, of course. >>> Maximal weight to tolerance and minimal reps. If the neurology of the knee is not loaded and stimulated it will remain a " bum knee. " ---->really? well, thanks for your input...it would be really great to heal this bum knee, and moreso, doing it by doing something i enjoy! Suze Fisher Lapdog Design, Inc. Web Design & Development http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine http://www.westonaprice.org ---------------------------- “The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times.” -- Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher. The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics <http://www.thincs.org> ---------------------------- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 28, 2003 Report Share Posted October 28, 2003 maybe i'll cut back > to 8. what do you think of doing 3-4 sets...too much? =============== For strengthening a functioning yet injured joint (as opposed to non functioning injured joint ala post op) I'd much rather see a maximally tolerated load (determined by you and your knee) for a maximum of 4 reps by 2 sets. This sufficiently works the tissues and stimulates the neurology and yet avoids over repping the joint. Think of the rep reduction this way, if your knee was really really sore you'd never think of trying to move it dozens of times even without weights. In the situation where the joint is troubled but not yet hurting why then would it be good to move it dozens of time. Simply give it the stimulating load it needs and then leave it alone until next time. If you want to do something else in addition to low reps high weight, spend some time on a wobble board. These two combined will serve you much better than a 48 rep workout (12x4). As for squatting on the smith machine. I'd prefer to see folks squatting a free bar in a cage however for someone unsure or injured or learning the smith works just fine. As for your knee you could also experiment with the feel based upon more or less toe out and also with the foot base wider or narrower. Generally a little more toe out and a little wider base will take some load off the knee directly and ask the glutes and hip flexors to help some more. One thing that's also great about the smith for folks with injuries is putting a low chair under the bar and sitting down into the chair and getting up from the chair. the idea is at some point in the movement you have right angles simultaneously with your knee and hip. Obviously you could never do this with a free bar. But this helps injured folk get back to form too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 28, 2003 Report Share Posted October 28, 2003 In a message dated 10/28/03 7:21:34 AM Eastern Standard Time, s.fisher22@... writes: > ----->i hope i remembered the wording she used correctly, but i may not > have. but i think she was referring more to body sculpting than any > temporary state of muscle contraction. i will ask her next time i see her. Then I think she's wrong. " Body sculpting " sounds exactly like what happened to me when I swithced from machines to free weights and switched from 10-rep sets to 1-rep sets. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 28, 2003 Report Share Posted October 28, 2003 Replies to Suze and Dr. Mike. _____ In a message dated 10/28/03 8:05:20 AM Eastern Standard Time, s.fisher22@... writes: > ----->paul, soreness is not a *goal*, but rather a *result* of my more > intense training. it hasn't slowed my progression because i'm doing most of > my exercises ONCE a week. by the time i work a new muscle group, it's not > sore any more. i'm temporarily increasing frequency of some areas, but > generally do most exercises once per week. I think this is an ideal approach, except for the low weight and high reps. I consider " high reps " to be 5-8, but 12-15 is out of this world high reps. Based on my experience with both low-rep and high-rep regimens, I suspect if you increased your weight and lowered your reps your soreness would diminish significantly, and your progress would increase significantly, though I'm certainly not an expert-- but that's what happened to me, and it's what every respectable expert I've read recommends. Chris _________ Suze wrote: >but i feel the urge to go higher in my weights often, and >have to use self-discipline not to do so because i tell myself there's no >way i'm going to be able to do 12 reps of THAT weight. maybe i'll cut back >to 8. what do you think of doing 3-4 sets...too much? Again I'm the least expert here in this stuff, but to share my experience -- I generally do 6-7 sets of an exercise, however 1 or two of these is insignificant warmup or cooldown, and 3 of these are singles. 4 sets might be too much for 8 rep sets, but 8 reps is pretty high. If you look at some earlier writings from the mid-20th century there's talk of " high-rep regimes " ruining progress, by which they meant doing 7 reps. I think 8 is a good start, but the goal in short time should be 8 max and ideally lower, in my personal opinion, based on my experience. Chris _______ Dr. Mike wrote: >As for squatting on the smith machine. I'd prefer to see folks >squatting a free bar in a cage however for someone unsure or injured >or learning the smith works just fine. Don't you think a drawback to this would be an increased chance of injury if she decides at a later point to switch to true freeweight squat once she's amassed considerable strength using the smith? It seems like it might be well worth it to just get an experienced spot .. It seems like if one concentrates on perfect form before weight, there shouldn't be any problem with free weights, and the pressure on the knee is there either way. >One thing that's also great about the smith for folks with injuries >is putting a low chair under the bar and sitting down into the chair >and getting up from the chair. the idea is at some point in the >movement you have right angles simultaneously with your knee and >hip. Obviously you could never do this with a free bar. But this >helps injured folk get back to form too. Why not? I see people do this with free bar, though was never sure why they were doing it. They don't use a chair, but use these plastic things that stack up to your desired height. A football player I know told me you're supposed to go 5 degrees under perpendicular, so I try to do that. I usually use a stance about double shoulder lenght for my feet. Chris _______ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 28, 2003 Report Share Posted October 28, 2003 ----- Original Message ----- From: " Suze Fisher " <s.fisher22@...> > ----->if you don't feel it then by all means increase your weight! i REALLY > feel it every excercise i do. not that it's a lot of weight, i'm only > benching 65 lbs, but only started it about 3 weeks ago and am working my way > up. i can't remember what i'm squatting on the smith machine... machine? If you have a power cage, I recommend that you use that, instead. The machine forces you into an unnatural range of motion, just like any other machine, and is therefore less safe and less effective than using truly free weights. > i > was told i am strong because i can do (6) pull-ups, which a lot of women > apparently can't do, but i'm not sure how good a measure of strength that > is. Unless you're very short, for a woman to be able to do any number of pull-ups is impressive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 28, 2003 Report Share Posted October 28, 2003 >> but i feel the urge to go higher in my weights often << This is so interesting to hear you say, Suze, because honestly, that's how I have been feeling... an actual longing or craving to lift heavier weights. I'd also like to mention that skimming fallen leaves off a pond is an excellent form of resistance exercise, in case anyone was wondering. I hurt all over today. <G> Christie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 28, 2003 Report Share Posted October 28, 2003 Christie, that reminds me of shoveling snow for hours on end when i lived in the mountains. Going to the gym seemed ludicrous at the time. Elaine > I'd also like to mention that skimming fallen leaves off a pond is an > excellent form of resistance exercise, in case anyone was wondering. I hurt > all over today. <G> > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 28, 2003 Report Share Posted October 28, 2003 What is a power cage? I don't believe any of the gyms in my area have this? Do you know which type of gyms have this? Jafa Berg <bberg@...> wrote: ----- Original Message ----- From: " Suze Fisher " <s.fisher22@...> > ----->if you don't feel it then by all means increase your weight! i REALLY > feel it every excercise i do. not that it's a lot of weight, i'm only > benching 65 lbs, but only started it about 3 weeks ago and am working my way > up. i can't remember what i'm squatting on the smith machine... machine? If you have a power cage, I recommend that you use that, instead. The machine forces you into an unnatural range of motion, just like any other machine, and is therefore less safe and less effective than using truly free weights. > i > was told i am strong because i can do (6) pull-ups, which a lot of women > apparently can't do, but i'm not sure how good a measure of strength that > is. Unless you're very short, for a woman to be able to do any number of pull-ups is impressive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 28, 2003 Report Share Posted October 28, 2003 Quoting jafa <jafasum@...>: > What is a power cage? I don't believe any of the gyms in my area have > this? Do you know which type of gyms have this? A power cage is a metal frame with a pair of bars which are parallel to the ground and can be raised or lowered. If you get stuck at the bottom of a squat (ideally this should never happen), you can set the barbell onto the bars in order to get out safely. Any gym with a sizeable free weight section should have at least one. -- Berg bberg@... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 28, 2003 Report Share Posted October 28, 2003 > Dr. Mike wrote: > > >As for squatting on the smith machine. I'd prefer to see folks > >squatting a free bar in a cage however for someone unsure or injured > >or learning the smith works just fine. > > Don't you think a drawback to this would be an increased chance of injury if > she decides at a later point to switch to true freeweight squat once she's > amassed considerable strength using the smith? It seems like it might be well > worth it to just get an experienced spot > . It seems like if one concentrates on perfect form before weight, there > shouldn't be any problem with free weights, and the pressure on the knee is there > either way. ===========Sure that would be ok, however most folks are not that interested and since she's already on a smith and comfortable that cow is already out of the barn. > > >One thing that's also great about the smith for folks with injuries > >is putting a low chair under the bar and sitting down into the chair > >and getting up from the chair. the idea is at some point in the > >movement you have right angles simultaneously with your knee and > >hip. Obviously you could never do this with a free bar. But this > >helps injured folk get back to form too. > > Why not? I see people do this with free bar, though was never sure why they > were doing it. They don't use a chair, but use these plastic things that > stack up to your desired height. A football player I know told me you're supposed > to go 5 degrees under perpendicular, so I try to do that. I usually use a > stance about double shoulder lenght for my feet. > > Chris ==========I'm familiar with what your talking about chris, and what I'm talking about is impossible without the support of a wall or smith except maybe for cirque de soleil folk. Center of gravity is so far behind the foot base that mere mortals won't be able to stay up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 29, 2003 Report Share Posted October 29, 2003 hmmm...i didn't get about 50 emails from this list today...just checked the website and see them all there, except i see some responses to posts not on the site nor in my inbox. how frustrating! >>>>> > machine? If you have a power cage, I recommend that you use that, > instead. The machine forces you into an unnatural range of motion, > just like any other machine, and is therefore less safe and less > effective than using truly free weights. ----->i've been using it to take some stress off my bum knee. however i recently started using it backwards and without the cables - this feels so much better and MUCH more challenging than the usual stance. however, i'll transition to free weights soon, the smith machine was only supposed to be an interim exercise till i got comfortable with the form and my knee was doing OK, but i've been relying on it for too long now. > > > i > > was told i am strong because i can do (6) pull-ups, which a lot of > women > > apparently can't do, but i'm not sure how good a measure of strength > that > > is. > > Unless you're very short, for a woman to be able to do any number of > pull-ups is impressive. ----->LOL! i'm 5'6 " but i do the *easy* ones - with palms facing towards me. don't know if i can do any palms away, but will try... maybe since i'm stronger now i can do some. and maybe i *am* as strong as i look, after all...dunno. suze Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 29, 2003 Report Share Posted October 29, 2003 > maybe i'll cut back > > to 8. what do you think of doing 3-4 sets...too much? > > > =============== For strengthening a functioning yet injured joint > (as opposed to non functioning injured joint ala post op) I'd much > rather see a maximally tolerated load (determined by you and your > knee) for a maximum of 4 reps by 2 sets. This sufficiently works > the tissues and stimulates the neurology and yet avoids over repping > the joint. ----->it's amazing that this is good for a bum knee, but you are not the only intelligent person to tell me so today. i will go ahead and increase weights/reduce reps/sets. > As for your knee you could also experiment with the feel based upon > more or less toe out and also with the foot base wider or narrower. > Generally a little more toe out and a little wider base will take > some load off the knee directly and ask the glutes and hip flexors > to help some more. ---->yes, i do do this now. > > One thing that's also great about the smith for folks with injuries > is putting a low chair under the bar and sitting down into the chair > and getting up from the chair. the idea is at some point in the > movement you have right angles simultaneously with your knee and > hip. Obviously you could never do this with a free bar. But this > helps injured folk get back to form too. ----->ok, but i think i'm doing ok without a chair. i usually get to be perpendicular with the ground even with heavy weights and lots of reps/sets. thanks for your input - i'm going to try your suggestions :-) maybe i should take before and after photos LOL! suze Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 29, 2003 Report Share Posted October 29, 2003 Suze even if I were right there training you its important that you recognize that nobody knows what's best better than you. So use the advice of upping wt and limiting reps in the context of the feedback you get from your body and particularly your knee. For example you might be able to squat say 200 pounds 3 times however it flares up your knee. But you may be able to squat 175 5 times with no flare up at all. This is how you'll find your starting point. Enjoy! DMM > > maybe i'll cut back > > > to 8. what do you think of doing 3-4 sets...too much? > > > > > > =============== For strengthening a functioning yet injured joint > > (as opposed to non functioning injured joint ala post op) I'd much > > rather see a maximally tolerated load (determined by you and your > > knee) for a maximum of 4 reps by 2 sets. This sufficiently works > > the tissues and stimulates the neurology and yet avoids over > repping > the joint. > > ----->it's amazing that this is good for a bum knee, but you are not > the only intelligent person to tell me so today. i will go ahead and > increase weights/reduce reps/sets. > > > > > As for your knee you could also experiment with the feel based upon > > more or less toe out and also with the foot base wider or > narrower. > > Generally a little more toe out and a little wider base will take > > some load off the knee directly and ask the glutes and hip flexors > > to help some more. > > ---->yes, i do do this now. > > > > One thing that's also great about the smith for folks with injuries > > is putting a low chair under the bar and sitting down into the > chair > > and getting up from the chair. the idea is at some point in the > > movement you have right angles simultaneously with your knee and > > hip. Obviously you could never do this with a free bar. But this > > helps injured folk get back to form too. > > ----->ok, but i think i'm doing ok without a chair. i usually get to > be perpendicular with the ground even with heavy weights and lots of > reps/sets. > > thanks for your input - i'm going to try your suggestions :-) maybe i > should take before and after photos LOL! > > suze Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 29, 2003 Report Share Posted October 29, 2003 > Suze even if I were right there training you its important that you > recognize that nobody knows what's best better than you. ------>oh absolutely! i listen to my body and let it dictate what i take on. i really have no choice because it tells me loud and clear when i'm pushing the envelope too far. LOL! > > So use the advice of upping wt and limiting reps in the context of > the feedback you get from your body and particularly your knee. > ----->yup! will do. thanks again :-) suze Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 29, 2003 Report Share Posted October 29, 2003 I also enjoyed the artice on squatting. One interesting thing - I have done yoga for about a year and a half now, and am extremely limber. In yoga we regularly go into a deep squat position (of course, this is a stretch and we stay in it). When I started at Curves when recovering from my back injury, they insisted that the only correct way to use the squat machine was to go to your thighs being parallel to the ground and then go back up. I naturally kept going all the way down and then back up, which I found much more comfortable and much easier than the " correct " way. I'm still not sure what's " right " on that machine, as you are able to use your arms to help pull yourself back up. But my physical therapist urged me to do squats as described in the weblink, although she didn't mention doing it with weights. I'm very lucky, especially since I'm quite large, that I have never had any problems with my knees. If I could just get over this stupid back injury (which is not from working out, it's from lifting an injured 97-pound dog for several weeks, and doing it all wrong). I can't do lunges at all, they trigger spasming in my glutes that makes me literally cry with pain. But squats are no problem. Christie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 29, 2003 Report Share Posted October 29, 2003 Quoting Christie <christiekeith@...>: > I'm still not sure what's " right " on that [squat] machine.... Hanging clothes to dry. Maybe towels, too. -- Berg bberg@... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 30, 2003 Report Share Posted October 30, 2003 I think higher weights are infinitely more gratifying too, especially when you see yourself progress so quickly. That is a major motivation. It's been a while since i weighlifted regularly but i remember being amazed at how quickly i could lift so much. Elaine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 1, 2003 Report Share Posted November 1, 2003 I think I'm now officially glad I don't lift weights. Lynn S. ----- Lynn Siprelle * Writer, Mother, Programmer, Fiber Artisan The New Homemaker: http://www.newhomemaker.com/ Siprelle & Associates: http://www.siprelle.com/ People-Powered ! http://www.deanforamerica.com/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 1, 2003 Report Share Posted November 1, 2003 :-) lol thanks lynn. --- In , Lynn Siprelle <lynn@s...> wrote: > I think I'm now officially glad I don't lift weights. > > Lynn S. > > ----- > Lynn Siprelle * Writer, Mother, Programmer, Fiber Artisan > The New Homemaker: http://www.newhomemaker.com/ > Siprelle & Associates: http://www.siprelle.com/ > People-Powered ! http://www.deanforamerica.com/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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