Re: Valentina/was:/was: Bored to death with MB12/Valentina

[Guest guest]

Yes, small amounts of B12 made her aggressive and hypertalkative, in the

beginning. Now, no problems on 2.5 grams, but we keep it lower at between 1.5-2

grams, seems to be okay.

I think Pfeiffer means undermethylators do not do well on B12 and folic acid, in

fact, I have read that undermethylators actually have too much folic acid, if

that makes sense. Pfeiffer will just say undermethylators do well on

methylators, except B12.

Re: [ ]/was: Bored to death with MB12/Valentina

> Pfeiffer lists the typical undermethylator as intolerant of both B12 and

folic acid. I think there recommendation for undermethylators is TMG or choline.

I don't understand why they would say that. I mean I get it why TMG or

choline, but I don't understand why not B12 with folic acid.

> Was true for us also, even small amounts in the beginning made her hyper.

Small amounts of what? B12?

Oh! So you actually say that " undermethylators " simply have a hard time taking

B12 and folic acid, not that they shouldn't take it because it's harmful (?)

Valentina

=======================================================

[Guest guest]

> Yes, small amounts of B12 made her aggressive and hypertalkative, in the

beginning. Now, no problems on 2.5 grams, but we keep it lower at between 1.5-2

grams, seems to be okay.

I am hoping that you meant " mg " and not grams, because I wouldn't call 2 g of

methylB12 *a low dose*. Actually, if a person absorbs B12 ok, I wouldn't call 2

mg a small dose either. I think 2 mg is an acceptable dose for somebody who

needs B12

supplementation and can absorb it ok.

I can definitely see how our kids, even in really badly need for B12, would do

poorly at the beginning. For many reasons. But that doesn't mean they shouldn't

have it (just my opinion).

> I think Pfeiffer means undermethylators do not do well on B12 and folic acid,

I followed your advice and did a search and at this link:

http://www.alternativementalhealth.com/articles/walsh.htm

they are actually saying:

" [...] Therefore supplementation of folic acid and B-12 can help an

undermethylated ASD child who is deficient in these nutrients. However, these

same children TEND to develop excessive levels of folates.... and vigilance is

needed to avoid going beyond

correctioon of the folate deficiency. [...] "

It says it's " from Willam Walsh, Ph.D., Senior Scientist, Pfeiffer Treatment

Center " .

So I don't know... maybe nobody really knows what is what and which is which...

Which wouldn't surprise me

> in fact, I have read that undermethylators actually have too much folic acid,

if that makes sense. Pfeiffer will just say undermethylators do well on

methylators, except B12.

It makes perfect sense to me that some people who are B12 deficient might have a

problem taking additional folate. It's my understanding that usually, when B12

is deficient folate is trapped as MethylTHF. So supplementing folate won't do

you any good in

this case. But B12 could be very beneficial.

It depends... each person has a different problem... There are also people who

are undermethylators and don't need any B12, but they need folic acid. There are

also people with the MTHFR problem who need folic acid as FolaPro. There are all

kinds of

situations and problems.

Valentina

[Guest guest]

Yes, 2 mgs, lol, but agree, is not low, we started supplementing after a CBC

showed a high (but within range) MCH and MCV, I think those are the right

initials.

We cannot give folinic acid or Folapro, if that is the same thing. Folinic acid

will make her depressed, talked to an adult who said the folinic acid did the

same thing to her.

We can do folic acid, don't know if she absorbs it, but keep it to 400 mcgs for

the reasons you illuminated in the Walsh article.

Thanks for your comments,

Re: [ ]Valentina/was:/was: Bored to death with

MB12/Valentina

> Yes, small amounts of B12 made her aggressive and hypertalkative, in the

beginning. Now, no problems on 2.5 grams, but we keep it lower at between 1.5-2

grams, seems to be okay.

I am hoping that you meant " mg " and not grams, because I wouldn't call 2 g of

methylB12 *a low dose*. Actually, if a person absorbs B12 ok, I wouldn't call 2

mg a small dose either. I think 2 mg is an acceptable dose for somebody who

needs B12

supplementation and can absorb it ok.

I can definitely see how our kids, even in really badly need for B12, would do

poorly at the beginning. For many reasons. But that doesn't mean they shouldn't

have it (just my opinion).

> I think Pfeiffer means undermethylators do not do well on B12 and folic

acid,

I followed your advice and did a search and at this link:

http://www.alternativementalhealth.com/articles/walsh.htm

they are actually saying:

" [...] Therefore supplementation of folic acid and B-12 can help an

undermethylated ASD child who is deficient in these nutrients. However, these

same children TEND to develop excessive levels of folates.... and vigilance is

needed to avoid going beyond

correctioon of the folate deficiency. [...] "

It says it's " from Willam Walsh, Ph.D., Senior Scientist, Pfeiffer Treatment

Center " .

So I don't know... maybe nobody really knows what is what and which is

which... Which wouldn't surprise me

> in fact, I have read that undermethylators actually have too much folic

acid, if that makes sense. Pfeiffer will just say undermethylators do well on

methylators, except B12.

It makes perfect sense to me that some people who are B12 deficient might have

a problem taking additional folate. It's my understanding that usually, when B12

is deficient folate is trapped as MethylTHF. So supplementing folate won't do

you any good in

this case. But B12 could be very beneficial.

It depends... each person has a different problem... There are also people who

are undermethylators and don't need any B12, but they need folic acid. There are

also people with the MTHFR problem who need folic acid as FolaPro. There are all

kinds of

situations and problems.

Valentina

=======================================================

[Guest guest]

> we started supplementing after a CBC showed a high (but within range) MCH and

MCV, I think those are the right initials.

I think MCV, which shows the size (volume) of the cell would be indicative of

deficiency of B12 and/or folic acid. So if the volume of the cell is increased,

it could be because of a need for B12 or folic acid.

I don't know about MCH...

> We cannot give folinic acid or Folapro, if that is the same thing.

It is not the same thing. In fact, they are very different and could make a big

difference for some people.

Valentina

[Guest guest]

Thanks, Valentina, I have never been able to understand if there is a difference

between folinic and Folapro and if there is what that difference is.

We cannot give folinic, makes her depressed. I have a bottle of Folapro and I

will try that.

Yes, was her MCV which was elevated at the top of the normal ref range, which

Andy said indicated she needed more B12 and/or folic acid.

Re: [ ]Valentina/was:/was: Bored to death with

MB12/Valentina

> we started supplementing after a CBC showed a high (but within range) MCH

and MCV, I think those are the right initials.

I think MCV, which shows the size (volume) of the cell would be indicative of

deficiency of B12 and/or folic acid. So if the volume of the cell is increased,

it could be because of a need for B12 or folic acid.

I don't know about MCH...

> We cannot give folinic acid or Folapro, if that is the same thing.

It is not the same thing. In fact, they are very different and could make a

big difference for some people.

Valentina

=======================================================

[Guest guest]

> Thanks, Valentina, I have never been able to understand if there is a

difference between folinic and Folapro and if there is what that difference is.

Folinic acid is 5-formylTHF

Folapro is 5-methylTHF

Just different forms of folic acid... But the body uses them for different

things... So depending what your problem is, one form could be better than the

other. For most people might not make a difference.

I would guess that in your girl's case, is not the folic acid she lacks, but the

B12. (but this is just a wild guess)

> Yes, was her MCV which was elevated at the top of the normal ref range, which

Andy said indicated she needed more B12 and/or folic acid.

Yes, I have the same information... The lack of B12 or folic acid (or both in

case of intestinal problems for example) causes defective DNA synthesis and the

RBCs are formed bigger and have a shorter life.

Valentina

[Guest guest]

Makes sense about her needing just the B12, as we had only supplemented for a

month and when the bloodwork was redone, the MCV was already down.

Thanks, again, Valentina,

Re: [ ]Valentina/was:/was: Bored to death with

MB12/Valentina

> Thanks, Valentina, I have never been able to understand if there is a

difference between folinic and Folapro and if there is what that difference is.

Folinic acid is 5-formylTHF

Folapro is 5-methylTHF

Just different forms of folic acid... But the body uses them for different

things... So depending what your problem is, one form could be better than the

other. For most people might not make a difference.

I would guess that in your girl's case, is not the folic acid she lacks, but

the B12. (but this is just a wild guess)

> Yes, was her MCV which was elevated at the top of the normal ref range,

which Andy said indicated she needed more B12 and/or folic acid.

Yes, I have the same information... The lack of B12 or folic acid (or both in

case of intestinal problems for example) causes defective DNA synthesis and the

RBCs are formed bigger and have a shorter life.

Valentina

=======================================================

[Guest guest]

> If you had a high above average MCH level, what would that indicate?

I don't know exactly... All I know is that MCH shows the amount of

hemoglobin per RBC. I don't know if it is significant all by itself.

Sorry I cannot help more...

Valentina

[Guest guest]

High MCV and MCH can mean a b-12 deficiency.

>

> > If you had a high above average MCH level, what would that

indicate?

>

> I don't know exactly... All I know is that MCH shows the amount of

> hemoglobin per RBC. I don't know if it is significant all by itself.

> Sorry I cannot help more...

>

>

> Valentina

>

[Guest guest]

>

> > If you had a high above average MCH level, what would that indicate?

Elevation of MCH or MCV indicate a deficiency of folic acid or vitamin

B-12.

Andy