Re: Regression during chelation - bacteria

[Guest guest]

After trying 50mg dmsa and 50 mg ala for myself recently I felt so

awful that I'd been giving this amount to my 120# daughter. She now

takes 12.5 mg each with the protocol here and does so much better on

round and off. I'd vote for decreasing the dose. B.

-- In , " shel4336 " <shel4336@y...>

wrote:

>

> Hi All,

>

> We are in the middle of our 3rd round of chelation. We are using

oral

> DMSA 25 mg every 4 hours. My son weighs about 43 lbs. During the

1st

> round and this round, he has regressed during the on days. Since

we

> are doing the low and frequent dosing, would the most likely

culprut

> of the regression be gut bugs? I think we are doing ok with

yeast,

> but I think bacteria could be getting the best of us. He takes

> culturelle twice a day, a probiotic (50 billion), nystatin and

today,

> we added in biocidin. Or, could the regression be metals moving?

We

> did a urine metal test after his first round, and his mercury and

lead

> were in the elevated area (they were 13 and the reference range

was

> <5 ) Basically, his regression is sleep wakings, very emotional

for

> no reason, fidgety, stimmy and increase in fears. Any ideas or

> suggestions are appreciated! THANKS!

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

> We are in the middle of our 3rd round of chelation. We are using oral

> DMSA 25 mg every 4 hours. My son weighs about 43 lbs.

I agree, try reducing the dose by half or more. I'm 140# and I'm taking 25 mg

of DMSA

every four hours, on my 5th round.

in Illinois

[Guest guest]

You expect to see " regression " during chelating cycles!! Anybody who has

stuff moving from their brain or body out is going to have some outward

signs. Yes, watch the yeast, but just support your child during this time

because they often don't feel very well!

Barb

(whose son has just completed Round 96)

[ ] Regression during chelation - bacteria

> Hi All,

>

> We are in the middle of our 3rd round of chelation. We are using oral

> DMSA 25 mg every 4 hours. My son weighs about 43 lbs. During the 1st

> round and this round, he has regressed during the on days. Since we

> are doing the low and frequent dosing, would the most likely culprut

> of the regression be gut bugs? I think we are doing ok with yeast,

> but I think bacteria could be getting the best of us. He takes

> culturelle twice a day, a probiotic (50 billion), nystatin and today,

> we added in biocidin. Or, could the regression be metals moving? We

> did a urine metal test after his first round, and his mercury and lead

> were in the elevated area (they were 13 and the reference range was

> <5 ) Basically, his regression is sleep wakings, very emotional for

> no reason, fidgety, stimmy and increase in fears. Any ideas or

> suggestions are appreciated! THANKS!

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> =======================================================

>

[Guest guest]

Hi i'd like to respond, though I'm not sure how much I can help

because we are new to this as well---we are in our 2nd round this

weekend---but I think if it were me I would try decreasing the

ammount of DMSA you're using. My son is 9 and 63 lbs. and we are

using 15mg of DMSA every 3-31/2 hours---the only draw backs we have

had, have been lethargy, tummy aches and a little diarhea.

Best of luck and peace be with you and yours.

>

> You expect to see " regression " during chelating cycles!! Anybody

who has

> stuff moving from their brain or body out is going to have some

outward

> signs. Yes, watch the yeast, but just support your child during

this time

> because they often don't feel very well!

>

> Barb

> (whose son has just completed Round 96)

> [ ] Regression during chelation - bacteria

>

>

> > Hi All,

> >

> > We are in the middle of our 3rd round of chelation. We are

using oral

> > DMSA 25 mg every 4 hours. My son weighs about 43 lbs. During

the 1st

> > round and this round, he has regressed during the on days.

Since we

> > are doing the low and frequent dosing, would the most likely

culprut

> > of the regression be gut bugs? I think we are doing ok with

yeast,

> > but I think bacteria could be getting the best of us. He takes

> > culturelle twice a day, a probiotic (50 billion), nystatin and

today,

> > we added in biocidin. Or, could the regression be metals

moving? We

> > did a urine metal test after his first round, and his mercury

and lead

> > were in the elevated area (they were 13 and the reference range

was

> > <5 ) Basically, his regression is sleep wakings, very emotional

for

> > no reason, fidgety, stimmy and increase in fears. Any ideas or

> > suggestions are appreciated! THANKS!

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > =======================================================

> >

[Guest guest]

FWIW (from a mom who has not done chelation with my kids):

In addition to the fact that kids don't feel well, I believe that regression

is a process of going back to an earlier stage so they can start forward

again and " do it right " (or at least *better*) this time.

I doubt anyone else on this list will say that. But I know someone who was

brutally assaulted to the point of post traumatic stress and this person

describes the event as " I was murdered " and had to " grow up all over again "

emotionally. I have also been through a similar psychological process from

doing intensive therapy to deal with traumas I lived through. And when I

pulled my oldest child from public school, he began saying " goo goo, ga ga "

in response to some things. Over the years, whenever he was acting like a

very young child, I would ask him " How old are you? " He invariably replied

with an age that correlated to how long we had been homeschooling -- in

spite of having no sense of time and being terrible at math, so I have no

reason to believe he was intentionally refering to how long we had been

homeschooling. I think he just emotionally or psychologically *felt* that

age. Public school was a very traumatic experience for him and I believe he

was, in some sense, " reborn " when I pulled him from school and then

emotionally " grew up again " , minus the trauma of public school.

I know it is difficult for most folks to watch their child regress and have

that chilling feeling that they are losing all the progress they worked so

hard to get. But I truly believe that regression represents a kind of

psychological rebirth -- a chance to do it over and " get it right " (or

something closer to right). And when there has been LOTS of trauma, it can

take many regressions to fully go back to the origin of the problem and

erase what was written (on the brain) before and begin again with a clean

slate. I was 37 before I felt like I was " done " with being reborn and

finally felt like " myself " again. Because of my own experience with this

type of psychological rebirth (and my observations of the person who went

through post traumatic stress), I was not disturbed by my son's emotional

regression to " infancy " when he was 11 years old. I found it intriguing and

I monitored it. But he was, in fact, " growing up again " and he kept moving

forward, so I continued to not worry and just monitored it. I eventually got

back the wonderful child I had before public school destroyed him. He

still comes across as very young for his age. But Dana also says that the

son she chelated is developmentally like a child younger than his physical

age.

Just my very unscientific 2 cents worth,

--

Michele in Limbo (formerly in California)

talithamichele@...

Visit Michele's World!

http://www.califmichele.com

" Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding. "

-- Albert Einstein

[Guest guest]

Actually what you are saying isn't so unscientific. I have been listening in on

a homeopathic group and they believe that the regression is part of healing and

a very good thing. What we are doing to these children is taking their bodies

back to a point where they were before pharmacutical companies got to them. By

treating viruses, yeast...we are peeling back the layers in hopes of getting a

child with a normal immune system and NT. In that process sometimes they have

to re-experience things so that their bodies can correctly deal with it thus

clearing it out of the body.

An example may be when you are treating for viruses and the child breaks out

in a rash that looks like measles. No, they don't have measles but their body

is finally at the point where it can deal with what has been lurking around.

I don't think regression is always bad. Not saying it is always good, just

not necessarily bad.

2 more cents,

Michele <talithamichele@...> wrote:

FWIW (from a mom who has not done chelation with my kids):

In addition to the fact that kids don't feel well, I believe that regression

is a process of going back to an earlier stage so they can start forward

again and " do it right " (or at least *better*) this time.

I doubt anyone else on this list will say that. But I know someone who was

brutally assaulted to the point of post traumatic stress and this person

describes the event as " I was murdered " and had to " grow up all over again "

emotionally. I have also been through a similar psychological process from

doing intensive therapy to deal with traumas I lived through. And when I

pulled my oldest child from public school, he began saying " goo goo, ga ga "

in response to some things. Over the years, whenever he was acting like a

very young child, I would ask him " How old are you? " He invariably replied

with an age that correlated to how long we had been homeschooling -- in

spite of having no sense of time and being terrible at math, so I have no

reason to believe he was intentionally refering to how long we had been

homeschooling. I think he just emotionally or psychologically *felt* that

age. Public school was a very traumatic experience for him and I believe he

was, in some sense, " reborn " when I pulled him from school and then

emotionally " grew up again " , minus the trauma of public school.

I know it is difficult for most folks to watch their child regress and have

that chilling feeling that they are losing all the progress they worked so

hard to get. But I truly believe that regression represents a kind of

psychological rebirth -- a chance to do it over and " get it right " (or

something closer to right). And when there has been LOTS of trauma, it can

take many regressions to fully go back to the origin of the problem and

erase what was written (on the brain) before and begin again with a clean

slate. I was 37 before I felt like I was " done " with being reborn and

finally felt like " myself " again. Because of my own experience with this

type of psychological rebirth (and my observations of the person who went

through post traumatic stress), I was not disturbed by my son's emotional

regression to " infancy " when he was 11 years old. I found it intriguing and

I monitored it. But he was, in fact, " growing up again " and he kept moving

forward, so I continued to not worry and just monitored it. I eventually got

back the wonderful child I had before public school destroyed him. He

still comes across as very young for his age. But Dana also says that the

son she chelated is developmentally like a child younger than his physical

age.

Just my very unscientific 2 cents worth,

--

Michele in Limbo (formerly in California)

talithamichele@...

Visit Michele's World!

http://www.califmichele.com

" Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding. "

-- Albert Einstein

[Guest guest]

>

> Hi All,

>

> We are in the middle of our 3rd round of chelation. We are using oral

> DMSA 25 mg every 4 hours. My son weighs about 43 lbs. During the 1st

> round and this round, he has regressed during the on days. Since we

> are doing the low and frequent dosing, would the most likely culprut

> of the regression be gut bugs?

My guess would be yeast or mineral deficiency.

>>I think we are doing ok with yeast,

> but I think bacteria could be getting the best of us.

Well, I suppose it is possible. Giving too much anti-fungals did

cause a bacteria problem for my son, but this was after chelation, and

after anti-virals, and it was the addition of biotin that allowed the

yeast to FINALLY be controllable even tho anti-virals cause yeast for

my son.

>>Basically, his regression is sleep wakings, very emotional for

> no reason, fidgety, stimmy and increase in fears.

For my son, bad bacteria causes aggression and defiance. Your

symptoms above, for my son, would have been yeast.

Dana

[Guest guest]

> In addition to the fact that kids don't feel well, I believe that

regression

> is a process of going back to an earlier stage so they can start forward

> again and " do it right " (or at least *better*) this time.

When my #3 ate foods or supplements he did not tolerate, or had a

yeast overgrowth issue, he would revert to oral behaviors. People

told me he was a " sensory kid " , but from his other behaviors, it did

seem to me that he regressed to an earlier stage of development.

> I know it is difficult for most folks to watch their child regress

and have

> that chilling feeling that they are losing all the progress they

worked so

> hard to get. But I truly believe that regression represents a kind of

> psychological rebirth -- a chance to do it over and " get it right "

For my kids, I see it different. Not sure I can adequately explain

it. But not a " rebirth " , more like " can't progress beyond this point

without removing the physical factor " . And even " regression back to

this point because this is where the brain is, because of the problem

issue " .

>>But Dana also says that the

> son she chelated is developmentally like a child younger than his

physical

> age.

Yes, because his brain was never allowed to develop at all. But now

that it can develop, he is going thru all the required stages, he is

just starting later, because he had no development during the earlier

years.

Your ideas are intriguing tho, thanks for mentioning them.

Dana

[Guest guest]

>>>For my kids, I see it different. Not sure I can adequately explain

it. But not a " rebirth " , more like " can't progress beyond this point

without removing the physical factor " . And even " regression back to

this point because this is where the brain is, because of the problem

issue " .

----

I think that is a different way of saying basically the same thing. It's a

hard concept to convey. I speak of rebirth as a metaphor for the

process mostly because, when I did therapy, I dreamed about a child being

conceived (note that " conceived " is a double entendre and can be used for

refering to " conceiving an idea " ) and my dreams tracked my internal progress

through " birth " , " growing up again " , etc. So, in some sense, I think one is

" reborn " when all the muck and crapola is removed -- by that I mean that one

is renewed in a way which is more than " skin deep " .

I also think it sort of parallels the ideas in the movie " The Butterfly

Effect " . He kept " going back in time " , making changes to key events, and

" growing up all over again " with different outcomes each time. He had to go

back repeatedly to finally get to the root of problem and FULLY resolve it.

I think, medically, this must be what happens when someone is healed after

being ill their entire life. For example, in recent weeks I have very old

scars which are itching and shrinking. One especially messy, deep scar hurt

like **** over the weekend -- almost like it was " a fresh wound " . It seems

clear to me that something is being reconfigured and my body is, in some

sense, " going back " to re-do these things which supposedly have long since

been " finished " .

Anyway, I just thinking that regression allows one to re-do certain

developmental things -- that it is part of wiping the slate clean and isn't

something one should be upset about. Yes, it is wise to consider that it

may indicate viral issues or yeast issues or something else. But my

observation of my life and of other folks I know is that very deep healing

of very old issues always involves regression. So I think it has something

positive to offer. And I wanted to mention that because most of what I

" hear " on this list is worry and upset that the child has regressed. I

didn't personally find it worrisome when my child emotionally regressed. I

saw it as an indicator that the source of the problem had been removed and

he could heal now.

Again: just my opinion/personal experience.

--

Michele in Limbo (formerly in California)

talithamichele@...

Visit Michele's World!

http://www.califmichele.com

" Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding. "

-- Albert Einstein

[Guest guest]

> I think that is a different way of saying basically the same thing.

I don't know that we are talking about the same thing, because yours

sounds like " regression is rebirth which is a good thing " , and for my

kids it was " regression is caused by physical issues which is NOT a

good thing " .

Dana

[Guest guest]

Hi All,

We are in the middle of our 3rd round of chelation. We are using

oral DMSA 25 mg every 4 hours. My son weighs about 43 lbs. During

the 1st round and this round, he has regressed during the on days.

Since we are doing the low and frequent dosing, would the most

likely culprut of the regression be gut bugs? I think we are doing

ok with yeast,

but I think bacteria could be getting the best of us. He takes

culturelle twice a day, a probiotic (50 billion), nystatin and

today, we added in biocidin. Or, could the regression be metals

moving? We did a urine metal test after his first round, and his

mercury and lead were in the elevated area (they were 13 and the

reference range was

5 ) Basically, his regression is sleep wakings, very emotional for

no reason, fidgety, stimmy and increase in fears. Any ideas or

suggestions are appreciated! THANKS!

*** BEGIN RESPONSE ***

,

My son (who is also 43 pounds) just finished his 11th cycle of oral

DMSA,6X/day,25mg dosage. He also had " regression " symptoms when he

started. We were able to make it through that period. I've read

that this " cycling " typically attenuates significantly in about a

month to 2 months. Our experience was that the 5th week showed

almost a complete absence of " cycling " . This has been the case for

all subsequent weeks. In (a) Dr. Cutler's book he states that

doubling the dosage of a chelator DOES NOT double the rate at which

metals come out but it DOES double the side effects (more or less).

If the regressive symptoms are severe, lower the dosage, keeping the

schedule the same. My son's increased stimming was very apparent

the first week or so.

With regards to your son's probiotic supplementation, you might

consider moving up to a dosage that is quite a bit higher than

you are presently using. (No, I am not a probiotics salesman.)

Apparently, some kids respond very well to " high " dosages. If you

do this, move up gradually and stepwise, pausing for 2-3 days at a

given dose to see if any negative side effects occur. We are at 2

doses of 200 CFUs per day with my son. His bowel movements are

pretty regular in consistency these days...I'm sure that means

SOMETHING Good luck!

[Guest guest]

Are you giving minerals everyday? Consider giving them everyday and bumping

up the zinc.

Melatonin??? Kirkmans just came out with a time released one. Besides

helping with sleep issues it is a GREAT antioxidant. Yeast Aid helps with

yeast and bacteria issues. I give everyday !!!!

Lillian

fjennings@...

fldofdrms@...

[ ] Re: Regression during chelation - bacteria

> Hi All,

>

> We are in the middle of our 3rd round of chelation. We are using

> oral DMSA 25 mg every 4 hours. My son weighs about 43 lbs. During

> the 1st round and this round, he has regressed during the on days.

> Since we are doing the low and frequent dosing, would the most

> likely culprut of the regression be gut bugs? I think we are doing

> ok with yeast,

> but I think bacteria could be getting the best of us. He takes

> culturelle twice a day, a probiotic (50 billion), nystatin and

> today, we added in biocidin. Or, could the regression be metals

> moving? We did a urine metal test after his first round, and his

> mercury and lead were in the elevated area (they were 13 and the

> reference range was

> 5 ) Basically, his regression is sleep wakings, very emotional for

> no reason, fidgety, stimmy and increase in fears. Any ideas or

> suggestions are appreciated! THANKS!

>

>

>

> *** BEGIN RESPONSE ***

> ,

> My son (who is also 43 pounds) just finished his 11th cycle of oral

> DMSA,6X/day,25mg dosage. He also had " regression " symptoms when he

> started. We were able to make it through that period. I've read

> that this " cycling " typically attenuates significantly in about a

> month to 2 months. Our experience was that the 5th week showed

> almost a complete absence of " cycling " . This has been the case for

> all subsequent weeks. In (a) Dr. Cutler's book he states that

> doubling the dosage of a chelator DOES NOT double the rate at which

> metals come out but it DOES double the side effects (more or less).

> If the regressive symptoms are severe, lower the dosage, keeping the

> schedule the same. My son's increased stimming was very apparent

> the first week or so.

>

> With regards to your son's probiotic supplementation, you might

> consider moving up to a dosage that is quite a bit higher than

> you are presently using. (No, I am not a probiotics salesman.)

> Apparently, some kids respond very well to " high " dosages. If you

> do this, move up gradually and stepwise, pausing for 2-3 days at a

> given dose to see if any negative side effects occur. We are at 2

> doses of 200 CFUs per day with my son. His bowel movements are

> pretty regular in consistency these days...I'm sure that means

> SOMETHING Good luck!

>

>

>

>

>

>

> =======================================================

>

[Guest guest]

>

> Hi All,

>

> We are in the middle of our 3rd round of chelation. We are using

> oral DMSA 25 mg every 4 hours.

I would lower the dosage. You're doing a bit over the upper limit and

that's probably causing some uncomfortable side effects.

> 5 ) Basically, his regression is sleep wakings, very emotional for

> no reason, fidgety, stimmy and increase in fears. Any ideas or

> suggestions are appreciated! THANKS!

Sounds like yeast. Have you tried GSE?

Nell

[Guest guest]

,

Yes, it could be those things or it could be that you are moving metals!

Taking metals out of the brain and body is not fun! My son tells me that he

never knows what symptoms he may have; they have varied from cycles where

his eyes were going in and out of focus for several days, where everything

suddenly sounded very loud, where he got dizzy every time he turned his head

.. . .

Barb

[ ] Re: Regression during chelation - bacteria

>

>

> Hi All,

>

> We are in the middle of our 3rd round of chelation. We are using

> oral DMSA 25 mg every 4 hours. My son weighs about 43 lbs. During

> the 1st round and this round, he has regressed during the on days.

> Since we are doing the low and frequent dosing, would the most

> likely culprut of the regression be gut bugs? I think we are doing

> ok with yeast,

> but I think bacteria could be getting the best of us. He takes

> culturelle twice a day, a probiotic (50 billion), nystatin and

> today, we added in biocidin. Or, could the regression be metals

> moving? We did a urine metal test after his first round, and his

> mercury and lead were in the elevated area (they were 13 and the

> reference range was

> 5 ) Basically, his regression is sleep wakings, very emotional for

> no reason, fidgety, stimmy and increase in fears. Any ideas or

> suggestions are appreciated! THANKS!

>

>

>

> *** BEGIN RESPONSE ***

> ,

> My son (who is also 43 pounds) just finished his 11th cycle of oral

> DMSA,6X/day,25mg dosage. He also had " regression " symptoms when he

> started. We were able to make it through that period. I've read

> that this " cycling " typically attenuates significantly in about a

> month to 2 months. Our experience was that the 5th week showed

> almost a complete absence of " cycling " . This has been the case for

> all subsequent weeks. In (a) Dr. Cutler's book he states that

> doubling the dosage of a chelator DOES NOT double the rate at which

> metals come out but it DOES double the side effects (more or less).

> If the regressive symptoms are severe, lower the dosage, keeping the

> schedule the same. My son's increased stimming was very apparent

> the first week or so.

> With regards to your son's probiotic supplementation, the

> Lactobacillus in Culturelle can overgrow and produce toxic amounts

> of D-Lactate in individuals who suffer from carbohydrate

> malabsorption. If your son has trouble with carbs, this may be

> something to consider. D-Lactate free probiotics are available.

> Once you are satisfied with the probiotic formulation itself, you

> might consider moving up to a dosage that is quite a bit higher than

> you are presently using. (No, I am not a probiotics salesman.)

> Apparently, some kids respond very well to " high " dosages. If you

> do this, move up gradually and stepwise, pausing for 2-3 days at a

> given dose to see if any negative side effects occur. We are at 2

> doses of 200 CFUs per day with my son. His bowel movements are

> pretty regular in consistency these days...I'm sure that means

> SOMETHING Good luck!

>

>

>

>

>

> =======================================================

>

[Guest guest]

> We are in the middle of our 3rd round of chelation. We are using

> oral DMSA 25 mg every 4 hours. My son weighs about 43 lbs.

I am an adult (110 lb.). For me, 25 mg. DMSA is a pretty high dose. I realize

that some people and kids can tolerate much more than that, but just wanted to

let you know that for different reasons, some people just cannot tolerate

DMSA. I would maybe try to lower the dose and increase in time.

Valentina