Re: Anyone chelate naturally?

[Guest guest]

Lots of people here use ALA and can give you good information on that. I

used cilantro successfully to chelate myself, although I stumbled into it

and didn't even realize I was chelating until six months into it when I was

referred to this group for a completely unrelated reason. Most folks here

have had bad experiences with cilantro and will likely warn you to stay away

from it because no one knows what kind of protocol to use with it -- doses,

frequency, etc. Nor can I tell you how to replicate the success I had,

although I have spoken a few times of my observations of my experiences and

a search of this list within the past year or so might turn up some of my

posts on the topic. (but they would be under a different e-mail address and

with a different signature block)

--

Michele in Limbo (formerly in California)

talithamichele@...

Visit Michele's World!

http://www.califmichele.com

" Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding. "

-- Albert Einstein

[Guest guest]

Sorry for the double post, I just found the links to my own old posts that I

was looking for. The " best of " my comments about my experiences are here:

/message/149302

/message/149310

/message/149341

/message/149367

/message/164639

FOR THE RECORD: let me note the the posts above are part of a thread titled

" NO cilantro " and I state in one of my e-mails that I specifically chose to

reply to a thread entitled " NO cilantro " because I am telling a cautionary

tale and not encouraging anyone to use cilantro. Yes, cilantro is a

chelator. But that means it is also potentially dangerous since it DOES

move mercury but no one knows the correct way to use it. I am ONLY giving

these post numbers in response to a request for information, NOT in an

attempt to encourage anyone to use cilantro. However, if someone is dead

set on using cilantro, that is beyond my control and, if so, I would prefer

they have the best info available -- and on this list I seem to be the only

person who has given a detailed account of a positive experience with

cilantro. (But there may be others in the archives that I just haven't seen

-- I still intend to look through all the old posts which came up in my

search on cilantro).

--

Michele in Limbo (formerly in California)

talithamichele@...

Visit Michele's World!

http://www.califmichele.com

" Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding. "

-- Albert Einstein

[Guest guest]

However, if someone is dead

> set on using cilantro, that is beyond my control and, if so, I

would prefer

> they have the best info available -- and on this list I seem to be

the only

> person who has given a detailed account of a positive experience

with

> cilantro. (But there may be others in the archives that I just

haven't seen

I'm pretty sure there are -- though not sure it may be only

a couple. I think I remember a mom who used it with a child

and thought it was great a few years ago.

Also, as cited here

http://home.earthlink.net/~moriam/Chelation_products.html#cilantro

MD has written about it having wonderful effects

for his patients.

I'm sure you aren't the only one--- I also remember (in detail)

posts I read on another list (back when I was much earlier in

the process of investigating chelation) about someone who had

done " well " for a while on cilantro, then things turned and

they had real problems.

good wishes,

Moria

http://home.earthlink.net/~moriam/

Mercury Detox: Information, Tools, and Resources

[Guest guest]

Thanks Moira,

I had kind of " forgotten " about Dr. posts. At some point,

he posted a long list of links to studies...or something...about cilantro.

That might also be worth looking for. :-)

--

Michele in Limbo (formerly in California)

talithamichele@...

Visit Michele's World!

http://www.califmichele.com

" Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding. "

-- Albert Einstein

[Guest guest]

Oops -- that SHOULD say " thanks Moria " .

>

> Thanks Moira,

> I had kind of " forgotten " about Dr. posts. At some

point,

> he posted a long list of links to studies...or something...about

cilantro.

> That might also be worth looking for. :-)

>

> --

> Michele in Limbo (formerly in California)

>

> talithamichele@...

>

>

> Visit Michele's World!

> http://www.califmichele.com

>

> " Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by

understanding. "

> -- Albert Einstein

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I do have info on dosing and what to use. It is actually a cilantro

extract in liqiud drops. It seems to work for the adults I have

conferred with who were detoxing mercury from fillings. I just

didn't know with the kids. It is hard to know what to do with them,

you just don't want to make things worse, Thanks for the info!

>

> Sorry for the double post, I just found the links to my own old

posts that I

> was looking for. The " best of " my comments about my experiences

are here:

>

>

> /message/149302

>

> /message/149310

>

> /message/149341

>

> /message/149367

>

>

> /message/164639

>

>

> FOR THE RECORD: let me note the the posts above are part of a

thread titled

> " NO cilantro " and I state in one of my e-mails that I specifically

chose to

> reply to a thread entitled " NO cilantro " because I am telling a

cautionary

> tale and not encouraging anyone to use cilantro. Yes, cilantro is

a

> chelator. But that means it is also potentially dangerous since

it DOES

> move mercury but no one knows the correct way to use it. I am ONLY

giving

> these post numbers in response to a request for information, NOT

in an

> attempt to encourage anyone to use cilantro. However, if someone

is dead

> set on using cilantro, that is beyond my control and, if so, I

would prefer

> they have the best info available -- and on this list I seem to be

the only

> person who has given a detailed account of a positive experience

with

> cilantro. (But there may be others in the archives that I just

haven't seen

> -- I still intend to look through all the old posts which came up

in my

> search on cilantro).

>

>

> --

> Michele in Limbo (formerly in California)

>

> talithamichele@...

>

>

> Visit Michele's World!

> http://www.califmichele.com

>

> " Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by

understanding. "

> -- Albert Einstein

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

It is not because it is natural that it is safe.

I would never use cilantro, never. I have read too many horrible

stories about it. I would not even try it on myself, so no way I am

going to try it on my kids.

We (my two kids, my husband and myself) used ALA and DMSA, Andy's

protocol.

>

> I am looking to chelate naturally my three year old and 10 year old.

> Both have had mother's mercury. I am having my fillings removed and

> chelating naturally using vitamins and herbs. I am wondering if

> anyone else has done this? We would be using cilantro (excellent at

> removing mercury from the brain), Alpha-Lipoic Acid to remove from

> nervous system. Any insight is appreciated!

>

[Guest guest]

> > I had kind of " forgotten " about Dr. posts. At some

> point,

> > he posted a long list of links to studies...or something...about

> cilantro.

There's nothing in the links that posted that would

suggest that cilantro should ever be used for chelating people. The

bottom line is that the proper studies have not been done, no one

knows how to use it, and anyone using it on a toxic person risks

serious long term worsening.

J

> > That might also be worth looking for. :-)

> >

[Guest guest]

Hi there:

We had to chelated naturally. We used the DMSA protocol (also tried

DMSO, IV-EDTA, and ALA) and my son did not do well since he is SO

chemically sensitive.

For my older son we used Modifilan and for my younger son we started

out with clathration using Metal-free and moved onto chlorella which I

know a number of people on this board warned me against using because

of their adverse reactions. But just as my son had adverse reactions

on the DMSA, ALA, I would never discourage anyone from trying it to

see if that is what is best for them and their family. They were just

too stressful on my son, he broke his elbow and toe and they really

stressed his kidneys (based on medical tests). We also used sauna,

ozonate our foods (as much as possible) and our drinks as well as our

hot tub. We also used fulvic acid which was great for my kids. Some

friends are having great success with zeolite.

Check out naturopath4you.com for other suggestions. He helped us with

our alternative route once it was clear that the traditional method of

chelation wasn't going to work for our younger son. I supported my

sons with various liver, kidney, adrenal supps as well as acidopholis,

vit c, and homeopathy.

Best to you,

Debbie

>

>

> >

> > I am looking to chelate naturally my three year old and 10 year

old.

> > Both have had mother's mercury. I am having my fillings removed

and

> > chelating naturally using vitamins and herbs. I am wondering if

> > anyone else has done this? We would be using cilantro (excellent

at

> > removing mercury from the brain), Alpha-Lipoic Acid to remove from

> > nervous system. Any insight is appreciated!

> >

>

[Guest guest]

>

> I do have info on dosing and what to use. It is actually a

cilantro

> extract in liqiud drops. It seems to work for the adults I have

> conferred with who were detoxing mercury from fillings. I just

> didn't know with the kids. It is hard to know what to do with

them,

> you just don't want to make things worse, Thanks for the info!

Hi Jan,

The info on dose timing that Michele (or others) would be

referring to is NOT the info that you have. This may

sound presumptious of me, but I say it this way because I

do not think this info on dosing exists -- thus you cannot

have it.

Let me explain: I (and quite a few others who write here)

believe that chelation agents need to be taken very

frequently -- often enough to keep a fairly even level

of the chelation agent in the bloodstream. If given less

often, it not only doesn't work as well, but it can (and

does) result in " redistribution " . Mercury redistribution

means getting MORE mercury poisoned (by the mercury already

in the body). It is the opposite of what one is trying to

do with chelation.

So -- back to cilantro -- the issue with cilantro is that

we do not know how often to take/give it in order to

maintain this constant blood level that I was talking

about. With other chelation agents we do know this.

With cilantro we don't. That is the issue.

The folks who are using cilantro or writing the directions

on cilantro extract labels probably are not trying to

follow this method, and they may not even be aware of

this method.

If you would like to read about some actual experiences

of negative effects (as well as positive ones) using

cilantro, you can find a few here:

http://home.earthlink.net/~moriam/Chelation_products.html

There is a section about cilantro.

I realize that what you choose to do is up to you, but I

did want to clarify about the timing information at issue.

good wishes,

Moria

http://home.earthlink.net/~moriam/

Mercury Detox: Information, Tools, and Resources

[Guest guest]

>

>

> > > I had kind of " forgotten " about Dr. posts. At some

> > point,

> > > he posted a long list of links to studies...or

something...about

> > cilantro.

>

>

>

> There's nothing in the links that posted that would

> suggest that cilantro should ever be used for chelating people.

Aw, come on. Of course is saying it should be used

for chelating people. I can find you zillions of references

that think cilantro should be used to chelate.

Apparently you do not concur. Apparently your idea

of a suggestion is something else?

Moria

[Guest guest]

> But just as my son had adverse reactions

> on the DMSA, ALA, I would never discourage anyone from trying it to

> see if that is what is best for them and their family.

The point is not for any of us to decide what other families should

do, the point is for all of us to report results, good and bad -- and

to try to help people see that they need to do what is possibly

opposite to human nature, which is to pay *more attention to the

negative results so they can assess the risks of particular therapies

realistically.

And slighty OT, I want to ask the people trying zeolites to start it

by itself, without starting some other treatment at the same time, so

the reports will have some meaning.

Nell

[Guest guest]

> >

> >

> > > > I had kind of " forgotten " about Dr. posts. At some

> > > point,

> > > > he posted a long list of links to studies...or

> something...about

> > > cilantro.

> >

> >

> >

> > There's nothing in the links that posted that would

> > suggest that cilantro should ever be used for chelating people.

>

> Aw, come on. Of course is saying it should be used

> for chelating people.

Yes, of course, is SAYING to use it to chelate people but there

is nothing in any of the references he posted that backs him up.

It's easy to post a bunch of references. It's quite another thing to

read the references to see if they have any substance.

> I can find you zillions of references

> that think cilantro should be used to chelate.

'thinking' is one thing. Doing the thing safely is quite another.

> Apparently you do not concur. Apparently your idea

> of a suggestion is something else?

>

It's not just that I don't concur. It is that the research isn't

there. People have a tendancy to post a bunch of references that

don't show whatever it is that they 'think'. That's the part that

bothers me.

J

>

>

> Moria

>

[Guest guest]

My only advice to chelating naturally (meaning with non-prescription

meds) is " Take it seriously. " Natural chelation does not

equal 'safe' chelation, especially when using ALA. Adopt a frequent

dosing schedule like you would with a prescribed chelator.

Good luck! I am seeing awesome results with ALA; both in my son and

myself. I think I've finally started to crack the receptive

language delay!

pam

>

> Lots of people here use ALA and can give you good information on

that. I

> used cilantro successfully to chelate myself, although I stumbled

into it

> and didn't even realize I was chelating until six months into it

when I was

> referred to this group for a completely unrelated reason. Most

folks here

> have had bad experiences with cilantro and will likely warn you to

stay away

> from it because no one knows what kind of protocol to use with it -

- doses,

> frequency, etc. Nor can I tell you how to replicate the success I

had,

> although I have spoken a few times of my observations of my

experiences and

> a search of this list within the past year or so might turn up

some of my

> posts on the topic. (but they would be under a different e-mail

address and

> with a different signature block)

>

> --

> Michele in Limbo (formerly in California)

>

> talithamichele@...

>

>

> Visit Michele's World!

> http://www.califmichele.com

>

> " Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by

understanding. "

> -- Albert Einstein

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

>

> I am looking to chelate naturally my three year old and 10 year old.

> Both have had mother's mercury. I am having my fillings removed and

> chelating naturally using vitamins and herbs. I am wondering if

> anyone else has done this? We would be using cilantro (excellent at

> removing mercury from the brain), Alpha-Lipoic Acid to remove from

> nervous system. Any insight is appreciated!

My kids are fully chelated with ALA and selenium.

Dana

[Guest guest]

pam, how much ALA are you taking. i haven't started to chelate yet.

are you also doing the dmps/dmsa?

thanx

janey

[Guest guest]

Getoff at naturopath4you.com is doing a zeolite study using

Natural Cellular Defense. My friend is in the study and that is the

only thing he put her on. He is monitoring her results through

feces and will make the results available to patients and physicians

(he teaches at some of the local hospitals). We are patients of

his and once the study is complete, I will share whatever info I get.

Deb

>

> > But just as my son had adverse reactions

> > on the DMSA, ALA, I would never discourage anyone from trying it

to

> > see if that is what is best for them and their family.

>

> The point is not for any of us to decide what other families should

> do, the point is for all of us to report results, good and bad --

and

> to try to help people see that they need to do what is possibly

> opposite to human nature, which is to pay *more attention to the

> negative results so they can assess the risks of particular

therapies

> realistically.

>

> And slighty OT, I want to ask the people trying zeolites to start

it

> by itself, without starting some other treatment at the same time,

so

> the reports will have some meaning.

>

> Nell

>

[Guest guest]

" Let me explain: I (and quite a few others who write here)

believe that chelation agents need to be taken very

frequently -- often enough to keep a fairly even level

of the chelation agent in the bloodstream. If given less

often, it not only doesn't work as well, but it can (and

does) result in " redistribution " . Mercury redistribution

means getting MORE mercury poisoned (by the mercury already

in the body). It is the opposite of what one is trying to

do with chelation. "

---

For the record, let me state that this is not my mental model for how to

successfully chelate. However, my mental model comes from OBSERVATION of my

own experiences, combined with some stuff I have read plus feedback from

people who know way more than I do about science and/or biology. In other

words, my mental model is an UNTESTED hypothesis and using my mental model

to chelate someone would be in the category of performing biological

experiments -- which I cannot in good conscience recommend that a parent do

with their child.

Also, I privately spoke with Dr. and he was unable to tell me

what I wanted to know. He speaks english as a second language so that may

be part of why -- I am not questioning his competence as a doctor. I am

questioning his ability to outline a protocol that can be successfully

replicated by someone other than himself. When a doctor oversees someone's

chelation, presumably they interact with the patient often enough that they

can use their own internal store of knowledge and experience to make

judgment calls on what to do next, what to do if something goes wrong, etc.

That may be extremely successful for them and their patients but it does

not mean they can write up a standard that OTHER people can successfully

apply.

And I also cannot write up a protocol that other people can successfully

apply. I can tell you my anecdotal observations -- but that falls very far

short of being a standardized, repeatable protocol. A hypothesis becomes a

sound theory ONLY if experimental success is consistent and repeatable by

people other than the original author of the theory. But, FWIW, here is my

mental model:

I think successful chelation happens when a chelator mobilizes the mercury

within the system and then OTHER things help extract the mobilized mercury

-- help direct the movement of it out of the system, like a traffic cop. If

mercury is just sitting there, traffic cops do no good. If mercury is

moving around aimlessly without direction, you get redistribution. I think

that the current mental model used in this group misses the

" traffic cop " piece of the puzzle. I think redistribution occurs after the

last dose because currently people are not working on finding ways to

actively purge/extricate the mercury which they have successfully mobilized.

SOME of it comes out of the body anyway because simply mobilizing it will

allow for some of it to be directed out. Keeping a reasonably level amount

of chelator in the blood reduces redistribution because it reduces the

amount of mobilizing and resettling -- it keeps it moving longer, giving it

more chances to be moved out of the system but not guaranteeing that it will

find an exit. When I began having negative side effects from consuming

cilantro, I increased the activities which seemed to help move mercury out

of my body (such as hot baths to help sweat it out through the skin). And,

in fact, increasing those activities did give me relief from the negative

side effects, which is anecdotal evidence that my mental model MAY be

correct (but falls far short of being PROOF).

If I recall correctly, one medical professional also claimed that one needed

a mercury sink in the gut and needed to promote purging through the skin

(which is consistent with my mental model and with things I did while

chelating). I was unwilling to speak up in his defense at the time that his

statements were criticized in part because he was such a trouble-maker and

it seemed to me he was more interested in ego-gratification than in healing

people. He was willing to promote his ideas without giving any provisos and

without being able to adequately explain them so as to make them

consistently repeatable. So I felt that encouraging anyone to follow his

advice would be dangerous. He was obviously smart but not trustworthy, in

my opinion. I note his comments here because it seems to me that others

have made this observation, not just me. However, the person who was most

strongly advocating for this point of view so alienated people that many

people would toss out his advice merely because it came from him -- and I

can't blame them.

So, FOR THE RECORD: I do NOT encourage anyone to try to follow in my

footsteps. I stumbled upon something which was working and then tried to

analyze why it worked. At some point it stopped working and I have not

consumed cilantro for several months now. I have only a partial

understanding of why it worked and I cannot tell anyone how to replicate

what I did. I have shared some of my observations of my own experiences and

I do hope to promote open-minded discussion and make this forum a safer

place for folks to talk about " unproven " protocols -- not as a means to

encourage parents to experiment but as a means to help build a better

understanding of chelation overall and widen options for everyone.

HTH,

--

Michele in Limbo (formerly in California)

talithamichele@...

Visit Michele's World!

http://www.califmichele.com

" Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding. "

-- Albert Einstein

[Guest guest]

>When I began having negative side effects from consuming

> cilantro, I increased the activities which seemed to help move

mercury out

> of my body (such as hot baths to help sweat it out through the skin).

I've become completely devoted to blazing hot Epsom baths -- I take

one at least every other night and sometimes twice a day. I've been

thinking it was the combination of mag and sulfate that was making

them feel so good, but maybe what you're suggesting applies as well.

Weirdly, saunas made me crash but the sweating in the tub doesn't.

Nell

[Guest guest]

> When a doctor oversees someone's

> chelation, presumably they interact with the patient often enough

that they

> can use their own internal store of knowledge and experience to

make

> judgment calls on what to do next, what to do if something goes

wrong, etc.

That presumes, of course, that when something goes wrong there

IS something to do. I think this is not true in some cases.

In some cases the best you can do is pathetic -- it is to

stop chelating and try to do damage control, and regret the

actions taken to date.

> But, FWIW, here is my

> mental model:

>

> I think successful chelation happens when a chelator mobilizes the

mercury

> within the system and then OTHER things help extract the mobilized

mercury

> -- help direct the movement of it out of the system, like a

traffic cop.

My model says that it is MORE chelators that are the traffic

cops. The chelators move the metals and the chelators keep

them moving. If there are no more chelators then you get

redistribution.

> If mercury is

> moving around aimlessly without direction, you get

redistribution. I think

> that the current mental model used in this group misses the

> " traffic cop " piece of the puzzle.

only because you have defined the traffic cop as something ELSE.

If you define it as " something that keeps mercury moving " then

your theory fits perfectly fine with frequent dosing -- as it

is the CHELATOR that is the traffic cop.

> I think redistribution occurs after the

> last dose because currently people are not working on finding ways

to

> actively purge/extricate the mercury which they have successfully

mobilized.

I think it is POSSIBLE that there are other things besides

the chelators that would work.

> If I recall correctly, one medical professional also claimed that

one needed

> a mercury sink in the gut and needed to promote purging through

the skin

Actually many people claim many things like this.

When I read stuff like this it makes me think I really must

make a page about all the other protocols and beliefs out

there in the market of ideas. But I honestly can't even

put that on my list right now. None the less, there are

numerous claims that you need to have any number of pathways

open of all sorts.

good wishes,

Moria

http://home.earthlink.net/~moriam/

Mercury Detox: Information, Tools, and Resources

[Guest guest]

> I think successful chelation happens when a chelator mobilizes the

mercury

> within the system and then OTHER things help extract the mobilized

mercury

> -- help direct the movement of it out of the system, like a

traffic cop.

My model says that it is MORE chelators that are the traffic

cops. The chelators move the metals and the chelators keep

them moving. If there are no more chelators then you get

redistribution.

> If mercury is

> moving around aimlessly without direction, you get

redistribution. I think

> that the current mental model used in this group misses the

> " traffic cop " piece of the puzzle.

only because you have defined the traffic cop as something ELSE.

If you define it as " something that keeps mercury moving " then

your theory fits perfectly fine with frequent dosing -- as it

is the CHELATOR that is the traffic cop.

----

Thank you, Moria for commenting. For clarity's sake, let me note that I

said " HELP move it out " . And that I said that some of it will move out of

the system with just chelators -- not that chelators will mobilize it

internally but utterly fail to move it out of the system if other things are

not also done. So I see no conflict between the frequent dose protocols

advocated here and my mental model. It just seems to me that it has been

said many times on this list that there is ALWAYS redistribution and

negative side effects with the last dose in a round. So my thought is that

if there *are* things which help to move the mercury (or other metals) out

of the body and if they can be identified, adding some of those practices to

the current protocol for ALA (for example) could improve it.

--

Michele in Limbo (formerly in California)

talithamichele@...

Visit Michele's World!

http://www.califmichele.com

" Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding. "

-- Albert Einstein

[Guest guest]

It just seems to me that it has been

> said many times on this list that there is ALWAYS redistribution

and

> negative side effects with the last dose in a round. So my

thought is that

> if there *are* things which help to move the mercury (or other

metals) out

> of the body and if they can be identified, adding some of those

practices to

> the current protocol for ALA (for example) could improve it.

In theory, I think that is possible. In theory, I also think

it is possible that someday something else may be found that

works so well that it can be used with infrequent dosing.

In current reality, as far as what we know about, I don't think so.

And I'm definately not holding my breath.

Also I think frequent dosing DOES work, even if you have

plugged up skin, bowels, liver, etc.

good wishes,

Moria

http://home.earthlink.net/~moriam/

Mercury Detox: Information, Tools, and Resources

[Guest guest]

> So my thought is that

> if there *are* things which help to move the mercury (or other

metals) out

> of the body and if they can be identified, adding some of those

practices to

> the current protocol for ALA (for example) could improve it.

>

> --

> Michele in Limbo (formerly in California)

>

To my mind, this makes a lot of sense. When I have too much time on

my hands, I think of things like these. One of my brainstorms

involves using DMSA only for the last couple doses of a round, in

order to " close " the BBB before redistribution occurs. Also, I

would think that this may leave the body slightly cleaner between

rounds. To be honest, I don't know that this theory has merit, but,

we have not been plagued by " Terrible Tuesdays " to any great degree

(6 rounds into combined ALA+DMSA).

[Guest guest]

>>In theory, I think that is possible. In theory, I also think

it is possible that someday something else may be found that

works so well that it can be used with infrequent dosing.

In current reality, as far as what we know about, I don't think so.

And I'm definately not holding my breath.

Also I think frequent dosing DOES work, even if you have

plugged up skin, bowels, liver, etc.

----

Not disagreeing with any of that. And, as I stated earlier, my mental model

is untested. It is what I happen to THINK happened for me. It isn't " pure

guess work " but it is very far from " scientific " . :-)

--

Michele in Limbo (formerly in California)

talithamichele@...

Visit Michele's World!

http://www.califmichele.com

" Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding. "

-- Albert Einstein

[Guest guest]

-No you're right about the mag and sulf. They both remove mercury

and other toxins as well. The sauna doesn supply that magnet for the

toxins to grab onto.

-- In , " lanellici " <lanellici@...>

wrote:

>

>

> >When I began having negative side effects from consuming

> > cilantro, I increased the activities which seemed to help move

> mercury out

> > of my body (such as hot baths to help sweat it out through the

skin).

>

> I've become completely devoted to blazing hot Epsom baths -- I take

> one at least every other night and sometimes twice a day. I've been

> thinking it was the combination of mag and sulfate that was making

> them feel so good, but maybe what you're suggesting applies as

well.

> Weirdly, saunas made me crash but the sweating in the tub doesn't.

>

> Nell

>