cod liver oil vs. ProEPA/ProEFA

September 6, 2010

Hi ,

I know you have likely answered this question a million times, but what is the

difference between taking just cod liver oil vs. the ProEPA/ProEFA combination

that you recommend? I can't recall, but doesn't CLO have a certain vitamin that

the other combo doesn't or vice versa? The reason I'm asking is that when I put

one of my late talking twins on CLO last Christmas, he started talking in

phrases within a few days and has surged continuously since then! I had been

giving my other twin the ProEFA/ProEPA combo for several months with only a

small surge at the beginning and then decided to try CLO, but now can't recall

why you don't recommend the CLO? If you could clarify, I would be very

grateful!

Tatyana

September 7, 2010

Hi Tatyana!

In short fish oil from CLO is made from the liver of the fish so due to that

naturally contains fat soluble vitamins A and D. You want to be careful with

fat soluble vitamins as the body stores them and in this group many of us

learned the very hard way with vitamin E about the word " hypervitaminosis " which

translates to vitamin poisoning. But at conservative dosages cod liver oil is

healthy and has been used for generations for health. If that is what you are

going to use it for -then CLO away. But as far as surges in speech and other

areas -in this group over a period of now over a decade and with some feedback

studies- the CLO is not the formula of choice. In fact if you mix CLO with say

the right formula such as ProEFA you will raise the Omega 3 over the Omega 6 and

not the good Omega 3 to raise (the EPA) but the DHA -which in this group over

the years has created regressions.

I'm pretty sure the differences we found in this group with CLO vs Omega 3/6

formulas that were higher in EPA are at one of both of these sites

http://www.cherabfoundation.org/2002/answers-about-proefa-and-history-of-how-it-\

\came-to-be-known/

http://www.cherab.org/information/historyEFA.html

About the fairly large parental feedback we did on CLO years ago in the US -and

through Echo of Canada; we compared CLO to ProEFA at that time- and pretty much

across the board the results from hundreds were little to no change with cod

liver oil -moderate to dramatic changes with ProEFA (we got samples from Nordic

Naturals at the time so used DHA Jr for the CLO- but again name brand doesn't

matter -just formula, dosage and quality of the oil) The good news about fish

oils is they are benign and easy to try the above yourself. Almost all of us

find the same no matter how many formulas we try -an Omega 3/6 formula with just

a bit of GLA but EPA higher than DHA is best. And again in my opinion be very

careful with fat soluble vitamins unless you are aware of dosages and upper

tolerable levels. Fish oils not made from the liver of the fish do not contain

fat soluble vitamin A and D. Also based on horrific side effects in this group

unless you are under a doctor's care I would stay clear of the product speak

which adds mega amounts of fat soluble vitamin E and K. We had children who had

seizures within days on just 2 capsules a day (but 2 capsules would be 500 IU of

the alpha and 200 gamma tocopherol/vitamin E) Outside of the fat soluble

vitamins the only side effects for fish oils over the years have been reports in

being temporary hyper or other changes in behavior, loose stools, things like

that.

I am aware that Shane just posted by using a pure Omega 3 slightly higher in DHA

his child had surges -but until more try that either it's a coincidence,

something other than the fish oils in one of the products, his child is

different than the norm, or a new discovery. Time will tell -but in the

meantime I'd stick with the tried and true if you are a first time fish oil

user.

Below is an interesting archive from you -where it seems your child is having

unusual surges and regressions on fish oils. Your child isn't typical from what

you wrote in the following -and the only thing I can think of is there is some

metabolic reason you see what you do. I'd discuss it with your child's doctor.

Below the message from you is an archive which may answer a bit more about cod

liver oil.

fish oil plateaus getting shorter

Sat Jun 20, 2009 2:57 pm

The difference

My son is 3.9 years old - he is severely apraxic and mild/mod autistic. We have

had him on the fish oil regimen since February and with each added capsule, he

always showed marked increases in focus, babbling, new words, and being

generally more " connected " . The first ProEFA capsule has a month long effect

before the plateau; then we added a second ProEFA capsule that seemed to have

another spike effect for about 3 weeks and then he plateaued and even regressed

so we added one ProEPA which had an effect for about 2 weeks and now he is not

only plateaued but regressing to where we were before we started the fish oil!

I'm not sure what to do? Is it safe to add another ProEPA? Is the fish oil not

working or should we be adding CarnAware now? I'm at a loss and I so miss the

happy, chirpy little boy we were starting to see when we started the oils. Any

help with be most appreciated!

Re: Cod liver oil

Cod liver oil is not the formula of oil that has the best results for

the majority here. Cod liver oil or CLO is higher in DHA than EPA

with no GLA. As new parents we think all fish oils are the same -but

they aren't. Now if you are just looking for healthy -in small

dosages CLO would be. It has been used for generations for health.

Careful about higher dosages however because any fish oil made from

the liver of the fish naturally contains vitamin A which you have to

be careful with since it's a fat soluble vitamin.

Not sure from what you wrote if your child has a simple delay in

speech based on what you wrote. What are the 10 words? How clear are

they?

If you are looking for the best formula I have a huge amount of easy

to access information up at our new CHERAB Facebook page

http://www.apraxia.org

Below is an old archive which has worked for the majority for a decade

now.

I have just put up new member info at

our new CHERAB facebook page at the discussion board:

(under " Newly diagnosed with apraxia info " )

Think this is the direct link but don't know for sure:

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1131155429 & ref=name#/topic.php?uid=115029\

\

735601 & topic=7329

If not you can find it here

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=115029735601

The rest is an archive on EFAs.

I do plan on cleaning up the following and putting this up there too

to make it easier for everyone to find all on one page.

(LOVE FB!!)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The following is an old EFA archive from this group which has worked

in this group for years so it's up on the Speechville message

board.

Recently there are a few members who are staying with the same

formula -but raising the dosage to multi dosing two to three times a

day and anecdotally they are observing even more dramatic and

accelerated surges. Due to recent messages I want to clarify that

the following was for the average new member who in the majority

will have a child that is 2 to 4 years old. If your child is around

5 or older you will probably want to start at one a day just for a

week or so and then increase right away to two. Not that you won't

see any changes on the lower dosage but for older children the one a

day (which is comparable to the dosage in infant formula) may not be

enough. Most see the first surges in a day to three weeks almost

across the board. If following a low dose program -most see the

first plateau somewhere between 3-6 months and the second somewhere

between 6 months to a year following the lower dosage way. We don't

know yet as a group if and when plateaus are reached with higher

dosage supplementation. If however you hit a plateau at any point -

you probably want to look to increase dosage -especially if you are

at one a day with a 4 year old say.

You can run by your child's MD -start with the basic and observe and

go from there. With fish oils typically the changes are within one

day to three weeks almost across the board -so you'll know pretty

soon whether it's " working " ! Let us know the good news!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

What fish oil should I give to my baby or child?

The confusion is more the brand names than the formulas. In

actuality there really is no such thing as a " children's EFA "

perfect for all children yet. However fish oils can be marketed to

children by making fun flavorings and smaller capsules. Most of

the parents I know squeeze the oil out of the capsule anyway -so

that's besides the point for most of our group.

EFAs are now in baby formula and food, and EFAs come and are used in

a variety of formulas for children for various reasons. Mainly we

hear about the use of them for healthy brain development in regards

to children and they are even proven to help with asthma!

Dosage that was used for years (again today it's a bit higher faster)

" I will use the following examples with the brand name ProEFA since

that's the formula/dosage that seems to work the best for most of us

(Efalex and EyeQ are similar Omega 3/6 formulas that also have good

reports) For any brand name of Omega 3/6 formula -you could make

the same formula by mixing together fish oil and either primrose or

borage seed oil if you prefer -or as found -another brand

name with a similar formula (and I hope also a good quality)

If you mix two fish oils together which is fine if you know why you

are doing that: Look at the amount of DHA, EPA (Omega 3) and the

amount of GLA (Omega 6) and then add them all together to see what

formula and dosage you now have is. So for those of you that ask -

you can mix any brand names together you would like -however what

you could change is the three things above (dosage, formula and

*quality (*if one of the companies you start using has rancid oils

which is not uncommon when it comes to fish oils -so make sure all

brands you use are pure) Keep in mind in anecdotal feedback done by

parents from all over through CHERAB -that pure Omega 3 or pure

Omega 6 either showed no results -or very little results in almost

all cases. Pure Omega 3 would include pure cod liver oil, fish oil,

flax seed oil without any Omega 6. So even though there is only a

small amount of GLA (Omega 6) in the formulas we found to be

successful -GLA appears to be important to be there for some

reason. GLA has anti-inflammatory properties which perhaps enable

to DHA and EPA to get to where it's needed in the brain?

Dosage of one capsule a day ProEFA that at the lowest dosage appears

to be the best -

148 mg EPA

99 mg DHA

40 mg GLA

There is much more in the archives both here -as well as more

information at

http://www.cherab.org/information/indexinformation.html#diet

EFA tips and sources

http://www.cherab.org/information/dietaryeffects/efatips.html

http://www.cherab.org/information/dietaryeffects/efabasics.html

About mercury and fish oil (vs. eating fish)

" Fish oils have been tested for various heavy metals like mercury

and there has been enough preliminary proof through studies, as well

as theory from reputable sources, that as I've posted many times

I've heard that the oils from fish may be the safest way to get the

benefits of the EFAs without the toxins due to the fact that mercury

etc. binds to the proteins/muscles of the fish. " Measurement of

mercury levels in concentrated over-the-counter fish oil

preparations: is fish oil healthier than fish? "

" CONCLUSIONS: Fish are rich in omega-3 fatty acids, and their

consumption is recommended to decrease the risk of coronary artery

disease. However, fish such as swordfish and shark are also a source

of exposure to the heavy metal toxin, mercury. The fish oil brands

examined in this manuscript have negligible amounts of mercury and

may provide a safer alternative to fish consumption. "

Division of Laboratory Medicine, Department of Pathology,

Massachusetts General Hospital and Harvard Medical School, Boston,

Mass 02114, USA.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?

cmd=Retrieve & db=PubMed & list_uids=1\

4632570 & dopt=Abstract

And one other thing to keep in mind for those like me who do eat

both fish and take fish oil, there are toxins in the fish you eat

that won't be in the oil For example while mercury etc. binds to

the protein (muscle of the fish) so it's not in the oil of the

fish. From what I've read -the largest problem with fish oil itself

is rancidity. Oxygen and fish oil doesn't mix well. Pharmaceutical

brands of fish oil are typically tested low in peroxide

levels/rancidity. Consumer Reports had this to say (most likely

because toxins in many cases bind to the protein and most oils are

not tested for rancidity)

" Consumer Reports tested 16 top-selling fish-oil pills which, like

other supplements, aren't closely regulated by the FDA.

Consumer Reports' Metcalf says the test results are

reassuring, " We found that all 16 brands that we tested had the

amount of Omega-3s that they said they did, which is good news. And,

we don't always find that with supplements. "

Since fish can contain toxins, Metcalf says Consumer Reports also

checked the supplements for purity, " We tested for three kinds of

toxins that often appear in fish - mercury, dioxin, and PCBs. "

Testers didn't find significant levels of toxins in any of the pills

tested, so you don't have to worry about contaminants. "

http://abclocal.go.com/kfsn/features/consumerwatch/consumer_070303_omega3.html

" The omega-3 fatty acids offer some unique benefits, should they

prove to be truly effective mood stabilizers. The advantages of the

omega-3 fatty acids as mood stabilizers include the apparent acute

efficacy in both the manic and depressive phases of bipolar

disorder, their lack of toxicity, as well as high patient

acceptance. In addition, omega-3 fatty acids confer some health

benefits during chronic use, such as possible reduction in the risk

of a fatal myocardial infarction. In addition, the omega-3 fatty

acids have no documented adverse drug interactions, and appear to be

safe (and possibly beneficial) in pregnancy and in children. "

http://ods.od.nih.gov/news/conferences/w6w3_abstracts.html

" I had the wonderful opportunity to hear ph Hibbeln, M.D.,

Chief, Outpatient Clinic National Institute of Alcoholism and Alcohol

Abuse, NIH, Bethesda, land at the First Apraxia Conference

http://www.cherab.org/news/scientific.htm lecture about the

importance of PUFA -especially during pregnancy when you are growing

a brain inside you. If you don't consume enough PUFAs while

pregnant -the babies body will pull it from the mother's body. It's

his theory and research as to why so many mom's experience post

partum depression. http://www.beachpsych.com/pages/cc46.html In

additionit is proven that the PUFAs are important for cognitive

ability. http://neuroscience.nih.gov/Lab.asp?Org_ID=352

Here is a quote from the US Department of Agriculture,

Environmental Chemistry Laboratory, Agricultural Research Service,

20705, Beltsville, MD, USA

Brain-specific lipids from marine, lacustrine, or terrestrial food

resources: potential impact on early African Homo sapiens. The

polyunsaturated fatty acid (PUFA) composition of the mammalian

central nervous system is almost wholly composed of two long-chain

polyunsaturated fatty acids (LC-PUFA), docosahexaenoic acid (DHA)

and arachidonic acid (AA). PUFA are dietarily essential, thus normal

infant/neonatal brain, intellectual growth and development cannot be

accomplished if they are deficient during pregnancy and lactation.

Uniquely in the human species, the fetal brain consumes 70% of the

energy delivered to it by mother. DHA and AA are needed to construct

placental and fetal tissues for cell membrane growth, structure and

function. Contemporary evidence shows that the maternal circulation

is depleted of AA and DHA during fetal growth. Sustaining normal

adult human brain function also requires LC-PUFA.Homo sapiens is

unlikely to have evolved a large, complex, metabolically expensive

brain in an environment which did not provide abundant dietary LC-

PUFA.

http://www.unl.ac.uk/ibchn/e_Link/cbpbbmb2002.htm

Since I receive lots of calls about this -I wanted to list the most

common changes in an apraxic or other speech disordered child on

EFAs from what I've read and heard and seen.

1. Increase in babbling or attempts at sounds.

2. Increase in imitation.

Changes also can be looked for in (what you see as positive or

negative)

sleep

attention

appetite

focus

behavior

stools

Next will come a breakthrough of something you were probably working

on for a bit -so you will be excited but will think " Well -I don't

want to get my hopes up we were working on that for awhile now -

maybe it's just a coincidence " However after the second or third

surge in a short period of time -and then another - you are pretty

sure things are different and it's at this point the professionals

and the rest of the family and your friends are noticing it too -

maybe about two to three weeks now.

OK -the next stage is pure elation and hope -you see the light and

no longer feel as desperate and want to share this new information

with everyone and anyone. As the months go by and your child

continues to progress at a much more rapid rate -you may even start

to doubt the original diagnosis -especially if you started EFA

supplementation at two -and perhaps the SLP that diagnosed the

apraxia who also was at first excited is starting to second guess if

the original diagnosis was correct as well.

Unless you have to stop the ProEFA (or other Essential Fatty Acids)

and literally have the chance to see the regression of acquired

speech and language skills, attempts, and changes in behavior like

we did with Tanner (and/or have a chance to again witness the second

surge when your child is put back on the EFAs) -that doubt will

probably remain somewhere in your mind and in others around your

child. So the " I told you that he would start talking when he was

ready " comments should be expected of course.

Up to this point is understandable to me -it's the point after this

that is confusing to me, and perhaps not the best stage for our

children and for raising awareness or having research done to find

out what is happening to our children and why. Perhaps because we

have truly hit a paradigm shift...

As Dr. Agin states the EFAs actually appear to be in some

ways " curing " the apraxic child -even those diagnosed with severe

oral and verbal apraxia, hypotonia, sensory and behavioral issues.

Especially those started at younger ages.

The child on ProEFA or some other EFA formula's like it no longer

fits the criteria of the classic definition of apraxia -and yet

doesn't fit the classic perception of what a late talker is

either...

Some of the parents become more focused on other everyday activities

with their child and start to drift away from the support sources.

Problem with this attitude is that unless your child is really up to

speed on all aspects of speech and language, the support sources

that helped in the beginning will still benefit your child today.

ProEFA alone is not the only answer and until we know how and why it

works (or why in a handful of children it doesn't) we can't improve

on it "

Difference between Omega 3/6 oils and other types of oils like CLO

ProEFA is an Omega 3 (DHA and higher EPA) formula with a small

amount of Omega 6 (GLA) The Omega 3 in the ProEFA is from fish oil -

not from the liver of the fish -so no vitamin A. Only fish oil made

from the liver of the fish contain vitamin A.

Children's DHA is cod liver oil which since it's from the liver of

the cod fish, it naturally contains Vitamin A. Cod liver oil only

contains Omega 3 (DHA and EPA) Here's some information from the

professional anecdotal feedback which is part of the history of this

group http://www.cherab.org/information/historyEFA.html

" Most of our experience is with one, 1.0 gram capsule of ProEFA

(Complete Omega) that contains 144 mg EPA, 99 mg DHA and 40 mg of

GLA. We know that this combination appeared to work well. There

were some other supplements used but we could not conclude anything

about them. I can only say that both EPA and DHA are important and

GLA appears to have an additional positive effect on speech.

ALA, linoleic and oleic acids in " The Total Omega " contribute very

little to the EPA, DHA, and GLA effect.

I see at least 2 possibilities that you could use if you decide to

make the transition from short-chain omega-3s in plants (flax seed

oil containing alpha-linolenic acid or ALA, C18:2n-3) to the long-

chain mixture of EPA (C20:5n-3) and DHA (C22:6n-3). These are DHA

Jr. (30 mg DHA and 20 mg EPA in a serving unit) and Coromega (350 mg

EPA and 230 mg DHA). Both of these have been anecdotally successful

in the past.

Coromega can be divided in two and taken one half in the morning the

other in the evening. If you choose this mode you will provide your

son with the equivalent EPA+DHA of 2 ProEFA capsules per day without

the GLA.

Flax seed oil or freshly ground flax seeds are an excellent source

of the essential omega-3 alpha-linolenic acid (ALA or LNA) which is

the quintessential parent member of the omega-3 family of essential

fatty acids (EFAs). The body transforms it into EPA and the EPA

into DHA. This transformation is very inefficient (the yield is

about 10%) and is further inhibited by over consumption of omega-6

fatty acids from most vegetable oils or certain disease states.

Therefore, it is advisable to independently consume also ready made

EPA and DHA from good quality fish of from high quality fish oil

supplements. Some recommended intakes are listed on the

Introductory lecture on EFAs that I gave at the First Conference on

Therapy of Verbal Apraxia, July 23-24, 2001, town, NJ. (

http://www.cherab.org/news/scientific.html )

The CHERAB Foundation's positive research results on potential

improvement in speech following EFA supplementation are based

on the use of ProEFA (Complete Omega) and that contains also

another essential fatty acid, GLA which is an omega-6 fatty acid.

The latter appears to be beneficial to children with apraxia. It is

not present in flax seed/flaxseed oil.

None of these materials present with any known side effects or

known toxicity in an otherwise healthy person. Nevertheless, we

advise every user of supplements to use them under medical

supervision. We don't know your child and we cannot provide you

with medical advice.

Sincerely,

Katz, Ph.D. "

=====

September 7, 2010

the brand my DAN! dr recommended was from nordic naturals.

From: Tatyana <tatyana_haddock@...>

Subject: [ ] cod liver oil vs. ProEPA/ProEFA

Date: Monday, September 6, 2010, 9:08 PM

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