Re: DIR/Floortime or ABA for apraxia?

[Guest guest]

Is your son apraxic and autistic or just apraxic? I am not a doctor or

a therapist, but I can tell you that ... for my son (apraxic only)...

he needs the enteraction (SP?) with other kids to encourage his speech.

My son is in an integrated classroom where there are some " typically

developing " children mixed with " special needs " kids. His teachers tell

me he " learns so much from the other kids. " Based on that, I have to

agree with the school's director about the " natural environment. "

Something else to consider is... our kids don't all respond the same to

certain kinds of therapy... which is frustrating because it forces all

of us to do " trial and error " with our children... rather than having a

definitive therapy that works on all of our kids. For example.. some of

the parents here have found that fish oil and Vitamin E have been the

miracle treatment for their kids.. but, it had no effect on my son.

Some parents have found the brushing technique is great in helping

their kids " organize, " but that has had no effect on my son either.

What I'm saying is that you may see great improvements with floortime

and you may not. But, Stanley Greenspan is a genius and his methods

have helped thousands function better.

You know your child best and if you think Floortime will be helpful...

I say go for it!

>

> my son is totally non-verbal 5 1/2. he attends a 100% ABA school.

sits

> in a chair all day and does discrete trial. uses PECS. i am

considering

> switching to another school which is 100% DIR/Floortime Greenspan. no

> ABA at all. sensory integration. seems more fun and my son

likes/needs

> to move alot and seesm to have self-regulation issues. however the

new

> school has alot of kids and teachers in one room and it is noisy.

> director says my son would get used to this and actually have more

> brain activity etc in this natural environment rather than very quiet

> ABA setting. my main wish and goal is speech, which school/method

would

> be best. thanks for advice. marcia

>

[Guest guest]

The school you describe is wrong for apraxia (outside of PECs of

course) If he's apraxic and not autistic it's sad but understandable

why he's still non-verbal at 5 1/2 as he not in appropriate

placement. He's almost 6 and you're considering another school

that's not appropriate for apraxia either. Apraxic children don't

need to be engaged -they need to be taught how to overcome their

frustrating motor planning disorder that today typically co-exists

with sensory issues...so now add the frustration of being

misdiagnosed as autistic on top of that because of the sensory

issues! Autism gets all the funding but that doesn't mean all the

children today should be diagnosed with it. Yes there could be

overlaps and yes many children with autism today have apraxia (just

like many have DSI) and perhaps apraxia is part of the spectrum -but

apraxia in itself is not autism and requires a specific intensive

approach. Apraxic children desperately want to be able to talk -they

can't no matter how engaging one is to them -no matter how many

rewards or punishments one gives to them -they need to be taught

through specific appropriate motor planning therapies and typically

with additional oral motor, strengthening (and sensory) therapies too

and best done in a multisensory way. And sure if you want to engage

or reward them during their therapy that's appropriate. It's not

appropriate to assume they can talk -but won't -when they can't. You

also want your child in the least restrictive environment which means

if your child can be mainstreamed he should be.

What is/are your child's main issue/s? There's got to be another

school option that's appropriate for apraxia. What state are you

in? I'm guessing your child is apraxic since that's in the subject -

but even if someone diagnosed your child autistic -if he's not

progressing perhaps the diagnosis is wrong. It appears to me many

children today are misdiagnosed as autistic -perhaps names shouldn't

matter -but therapy and placement do. You need to have an accurate

diagnosis so you can secure appropriate placement and therapy.

=====

[Guest guest]

,

Can you give us more concrete examples of intense treatment for

apraxic kids besides oral motor, sensory stuff, PECS, PROMPT?

>

> The school you describe is wrong for apraxia (outside of PECs of

> course) If he's apraxic and not autistic it's sad but

understandable

> why he's still non-verbal at 5 1/2 as he not in appropriate

> placement. He's almost 6 and you're considering another school

> that's not appropriate for apraxia either. Apraxic children don't

> need to be engaged -they need to be taught how to overcome their

> frustrating motor planning disorder that today typically co-exists

> with sensory issues...so now add the frustration of being

> misdiagnosed as autistic on top of that because of the sensory

> issues! Autism gets all the funding but that doesn't mean all the

> children today should be diagnosed with it. Yes there could be

> overlaps and yes many children with autism today have apraxia (just

> like many have DSI) and perhaps apraxia is part of the spectrum -but

> apraxia in itself is not autism and requires a specific intensive

> approach. Apraxic children desperately want to be able to talk -

they

> can't no matter how engaging one is to them -no matter how many

> rewards or punishments one gives to them -they need to be taught

> through specific appropriate motor planning therapies and typically

> with additional oral motor, strengthening (and sensory) therapies

too

> and best done in a multisensory way. And sure if you want to engage

> or reward them during their therapy that's appropriate. It's not

> appropriate to assume they can talk -but won't -when they can't.

You

> also want your child in the least restrictive environment which

means

> if your child can be mainstreamed he should be.

>

> What is/are your child's main issue/s? There's got to be another

> school option that's appropriate for apraxia. What state are you

> in? I'm guessing your child is apraxic since that's in the

subject -

> but even if someone diagnosed your child autistic -if he's not

> progressing perhaps the diagnosis is wrong. It appears to me many

> children today are misdiagnosed as autistic -perhaps names shouldn't

> matter -but therapy and placement do. You need to have an accurate

> diagnosis so you can secure appropriate placement and therapy.

>

> =====

>

[Guest guest]

thanks for the feedback. my son is autistic, functions at a 9 month

level even though he is 5 1/2. we tried PROMPT, every kind of

biomedical, and ABA and he still does not speak one word! he seems to

have sensory issues as he needs to move around alot and cannot attend

well. sitting in a chair is hard for him. this DIR school is more

natural etc but there is no ABA and the noise level is much higher

than the 1-1 ABA he has received for 2 years. I am afraid to make the

change from ABA to DIR but he fails most programs at ABA school and

does not speak at all. nothing!! he babbles sometimes in his own

language but not directed to anyone or anything. marcia

>

> The school you describe is wrong for apraxia (outside of PECs of

> course) If he's apraxic and not autistic it's sad but

understandable

> why he's still non-verbal at 5 1/2 as he not in appropriate

> placement. He's almost 6 and you're considering another school

> that's not appropriate for apraxia either. Apraxic children don't

> need to be engaged -they need to be taught how to overcome their

> frustrating motor planning disorder that today typically co-exists

> with sensory issues...so now add the frustration of being

> misdiagnosed as autistic on top of that because of the sensory

> issues! Autism gets all the funding but that doesn't mean all the

> children today should be diagnosed with it. Yes there could be

> overlaps and yes many children with autism today have apraxia (just

> like many have DSI) and perhaps apraxia is part of the spectrum -but

> apraxia in itself is not autism and requires a specific intensive

> approach. Apraxic children desperately want to be able to talk -

they

> can't no matter how engaging one is to them -no matter how many

> rewards or punishments one gives to them -they need to be taught

> through specific appropriate motor planning therapies and typically

> with additional oral motor, strengthening (and sensory) therapies

too

> and best done in a multisensory way. And sure if you want to engage

> or reward them during their therapy that's appropriate. It's not

> appropriate to assume they can talk -but won't -when they can't.

You

> also want your child in the least restrictive environment which

means

> if your child can be mainstreamed he should be.

>

> What is/are your child's main issue/s? There's got to be another

> school option that's appropriate for apraxia. What state are you

> in? I'm guessing your child is apraxic since that's in the

subject -

> but even if someone diagnosed your child autistic -if he's not

> progressing perhaps the diagnosis is wrong. It appears to me many

> children today are misdiagnosed as autistic -perhaps names shouldn't

> matter -but therapy and placement do. You need to have an accurate

> diagnosis so you can secure appropriate placement and therapy.

>

> =====

>

[Guest guest]

Many many kids with speech apraxia don't look at the person they are

talking to. its not to be contrary or difficult but they are showing

awareness that the listener more than likely will not understand them.My

apraxic 10 year old daughter has a 3 year old buddy that has delayed speech

and if you don't know him or pay close attention you would not know how

smart he is. He talks quickly and very quietly and doesn't look at the

person many times.he doesn't have apraxia thank heavens but is going to

therapy for delayed speech.

Roxanne

_____

From:

[mailto: ] On Behalf Of rmminard2004

Sent: Friday, April 11, 2008 9:06 AM

Subject: [ ] Re: DIR/Floortime or ABA for apraxia?

thanks for the feedback. my son is autistic, functions at a 9 month

level even though he is 5 1/2. we tried PROMPT, every kind of

biomedical, and ABA and he still does not speak one word! he seems to

have sensory issues as he needs to move around alot and cannot attend

well. sitting in a chair is hard for him. this DIR school is more

natural etc but there is no ABA and the noise level is much higher

than the 1-1 ABA he has received for 2 years. I am afraid to make the

change from ABA to DIR but he fails most programs at ABA school and

does not speak at all. nothing!! he babbles sometimes in his own

language but not directed to anyone or anything. marcia

>

> The school you describe is wrong for apraxia (outside of PECs of

> course) If he's apraxic and not autistic it's sad but

understandable

> why he's still non-verbal at 5 1/2 as he not in appropriate

> placement. He's almost 6 and you're considering another school

> that's not appropriate for apraxia either. Apraxic children don't

> need to be engaged -they need to be taught how to overcome their

> frustrating motor planning disorder that today typically co-exists

> with sensory issues...so now add the frustration of being

> misdiagnosed as autistic on top of that because of the sensory

> issues! Autism gets all the funding but that doesn't mean all the

> children today should be diagnosed with it. Yes there could be

> overlaps and yes many children with autism today have apraxia (just

> like many have DSI) and perhaps apraxia is part of the spectrum -but

> apraxia in itself is not autism and requires a specific intensive

> approach. Apraxic children desperately want to be able to talk -

they

> can't no matter how engaging one is to them -no matter how many

> rewards or punishments one gives to them -they need to be taught

> through specific appropriate motor planning therapies and typically

> with additional oral motor, strengthening (and sensory) therapies

too

> and best done in a multisensory way. And sure if you want to engage

> or reward them during their therapy that's appropriate. It's not

> appropriate to assume they can talk -but won't -when they can't.

You

> also want your child in the least restrictive environment which

means

> if your child can be mainstreamed he should be.

>

> What is/are your child's main issue/s? There's got to be another

> school option that's appropriate for apraxia. What state are you

> in? I'm guessing your child is apraxic since that's in the

subject -

> but even if someone diagnosed your child autistic -if he's not

> progressing perhaps the diagnosis is wrong. It appears to me many

> children today are misdiagnosed as autistic -perhaps names shouldn't

> matter -but therapy and placement do. You need to have an accurate

> diagnosis so you can secure appropriate placement and therapy.

>

> =====

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Marcia and thanks Roxanne!

Marcia, Roxanne raises a point that isn't spoken about as much.

Children with apraxia typically don't have good eye contact when they

are trying to talk. When we had the First Apraxia Conference it was

noticed in the videos of the children in therapy (speaking of videos

of apraxic children in therapy!) The thing is there were a number of

theories as to why- was it because they are putting so much work into

trying to talk? Or as Roxanne points out is it due to them being

self conscious in their ability to speak?

PROMPT therapy doesn't always work for apraxic children with more

severe sensory issues. Prompt is a type of touch cue which can be

used along with other therapies in children that are sensory

defensive. ABA is appropriate for autism -but if the reason your

child is nonverbal is due to apraxia the ABA will not bring him a

voice. Outside of fish oils and vitamin E the main way to bring an

apraxic child a voice is with appropriate therapy. Most in this

group with apraxic children over the years never did any chelation or

biomedical approaches (outside of fish oils if you want to count

that) and most of us had enormous success. I understand going this

route is the basics don't work. But clearly your son's direction was

for autism. Yet you put apraxia in the subject line. Who gave your

son the diagnosis of apraxia?

Marcia you say your child is 5 1/2 but on the level of a 9 month

old. In your heart do you believe your child is mentally retarded?

(and before anyone gets all politically correct on me I'm talking in

the clinical diagnosis sense -it's clear he's developmentally

delayed) If he was autistic there should have been some type of

progress from the intensive 1 on 1 ABA therapy he's had the past 2

years. It's sad that the professionals that worked with him are so

stubborn about ABA that they'll continue to use the exact same

therapy for years while your son doesn't progress one bit rather than

face that their diagnosis, treatment and/or placement was

inappropriate a year and a half ago when he was 4 -or even before

then when he was still 3! You shouldn't let more than 3 months go by

without any progress without evaluating the therapy, therapist,

placement, or even diagnosis.

If your son needed artificial limbs they wouldn't use ABA therapy to

teach him to walk. He's WANT to walk and would need to learn how!

If you don't know how to

read all the intensive ABA therapy in the world can't tempt or force

you to read -they would have to teach you.

If your son has a motor planning disorder he needs therapy to teach

him how to talk. (sorry no videos )

Perhaps your child doesn't pay attention due to frustration? Perhaps

he has co existing ADHD? But bottom line is that he's 5 and a half

years old and on the level of a 9 month old after 2 years of

intensive ABA. And please don't yet consider the other school his

only option. Please first find out for sure if he's really autistic

as too many today are being misdiangosed. And again -why did you put

apraxia in the subject?

If I were you I'd fly him to see Dr. Agin (if that's financially

possible) to secure an appropriate diagnosis. You're going to have

to help him work really hard to catch him up. If he is globally

apraxic it would explain why no progress and you can take the focus

off autism and put it just in helping him with his apraxia. It's

clear that the direction he's in is a nonverbal one. That's fine as

long as he's provided alternative ways to communicate (for example

schooled as if he was hearing impaired but given appropriate

academics)

Outside of a cognitive impairment however -there's no reason at all

why your child is still nonverbal...unless his diagnosis, therapy

and/or placement is all wrong. That's what I believe.

If you want me to help you please call me at 772 335 5135 and I'll

see what I can do to put you in touch with professionals in your area

that can help. He's still young -there's time.

's mom Robin didn't find this group until was 17 -all

those years they thought was autistic or MR. Please don't

let this goes on any longer than it did. Robin wrote the following

to help prevent other children from going through what did.

today is 20 years old and just learning to talk.

http://www.cherab.org/news/.html

There's always hope no matter what age -but your son is not even 6

years old yet.

Not all apraxic children are autistic -most are not -and this is the

danger from lumping all of our children together. If I sound upset

it's not at you Marcia. My heart goes out to you and your poor son -

and I do hope there's something we as a group or I can do to help.

All children deserve a voice- and a chance to achieve their full

potential.

=====

[Guest guest]

thanks for your feedback. we live in NJ. my son communicates at a 9

month level according to some test and he is 5 1/2. seems to be

autistic but who really knows. the school i was thinking of looks and

seems like a natural environment school rather than quiet 1-1

discrete trials in a chair all day school! my worry is the noise

level, this school has happy noise all around and can he learn to

talk in that kind of environment?

>

> The school you describe is wrong for apraxia (outside of PECs of

> course) If he's apraxic and not autistic it's sad but

understandable

> why he's still non-verbal at 5 1/2 as he not in appropriate

> placement. He's almost 6 and you're considering another school

> that's not appropriate for apraxia either. Apraxic children don't

> need to be engaged -they need to be taught how to overcome their

> frustrating motor planning disorder that today typically co-exists

> with sensory issues...so now add the frustration of being

> misdiagnosed as autistic on top of that because of the sensory

> issues! Autism gets all the funding but that doesn't mean all the

> children today should be diagnosed with it. Yes there could be

> overlaps and yes many children with autism today have apraxia (just

> like many have DSI) and perhaps apraxia is part of the spectrum -but

> apraxia in itself is not autism and requires a specific intensive

> approach. Apraxic children desperately want to be able to talk -

they

> can't no matter how engaging one is to them -no matter how many

> rewards or punishments one gives to them -they need to be taught

> through specific appropriate motor planning therapies and typically

> with additional oral motor, strengthening (and sensory) therapies

too

> and best done in a multisensory way. And sure if you want to engage

> or reward them during their therapy that's appropriate. It's not

> appropriate to assume they can talk -but won't -when they can't.

You

> also want your child in the least restrictive environment which

means

> if your child can be mainstreamed he should be.

>

> What is/are your child's main issue/s? There's got to be another

> school option that's appropriate for apraxia. What state are you

> in? I'm guessing your child is apraxic since that's in the

subject -

> but even if someone diagnosed your child autistic -if he's not

> progressing perhaps the diagnosis is wrong. It appears to me many

> children today are misdiagnosed as autistic -perhaps names shouldn't

> matter -but therapy and placement do. You need to have an accurate

> diagnosis so you can secure appropriate placement and therapy.

>

> =====

>

[Guest guest]

thanks lisa, i am going to call you, probably next week when i next

have some time. he does autism diagnosis from several dr. no official

apraxia but he does not talk. babbles and sometimes (more lately)

labels letters. seems to have auditory processing issue, does not

know what we are saying. makes ABA hard! my dream is for speech, can

live with autism (which would probably go away) if he could talk.

thanks for your help. i will call you, need to figure this out! marcia

>

> Hi Marcia and thanks Roxanne!

>

> Marcia, Roxanne raises a point that isn't spoken about as much.

> Children with apraxia typically don't have good eye contact when

they

> are trying to talk. When we had the First Apraxia Conference it

was

> noticed in the videos of the children in therapy (speaking of

videos

> of apraxic children in therapy!) The thing is there were a number

of

> theories as to why- was it because they are putting so much work

into

> trying to talk? Or as Roxanne points out is it due to them being

> self conscious in their ability to speak?

>

> PROMPT therapy doesn't always work for apraxic children with more

> severe sensory issues. Prompt is a type of touch cue which can be

> used along with other therapies in children that are sensory

> defensive. ABA is appropriate for autism -but if the reason your

> child is nonverbal is due to apraxia the ABA will not bring him a

> voice. Outside of fish oils and vitamin E the main way to bring an

> apraxic child a voice is with appropriate therapy. Most in this

> group with apraxic children over the years never did any chelation

or

> biomedical approaches (outside of fish oils if you want to count

> that) and most of us had enormous success. I understand going this

> route is the basics don't work. But clearly your son's direction

was

> for autism. Yet you put apraxia in the subject line. Who gave

your

> son the diagnosis of apraxia?

>

> Marcia you say your child is 5 1/2 but on the level of a 9 month

> old. In your heart do you believe your child is mentally

retarded?

> (and before anyone gets all politically correct on me I'm talking

in

> the clinical diagnosis sense -it's clear he's developmentally

> delayed) If he was autistic there should have been some type of

> progress from the intensive 1 on 1 ABA therapy he's had the past 2

> years. It's sad that the professionals that worked with him are so

> stubborn about ABA that they'll continue to use the exact same

> therapy for years while your son doesn't progress one bit rather

than

> face that their diagnosis, treatment and/or placement was

> inappropriate a year and a half ago when he was 4 -or even before

> then when he was still 3! You shouldn't let more than 3 months go

by

> without any progress without evaluating the therapy, therapist,

> placement, or even diagnosis.

>

> If your son needed artificial limbs they wouldn't use ABA therapy

to

> teach him to walk. He's WANT to walk and would need to learn how!

>

If you don't know how

to

> read all the intensive ABA therapy in the world can't tempt or

force

> you to read -they would have to teach you.

>

>

> If your son has a motor planning disorder he needs therapy to teach

> him how to talk. (sorry no videos )

>

> Perhaps your child doesn't pay attention due to frustration?

Perhaps

> he has co existing ADHD? But bottom line is that he's 5 and a half

> years old and on the level of a 9 month old after 2 years of

> intensive ABA. And please don't yet consider the other school his

> only option. Please first find out for sure if he's really

autistic

> as too many today are being misdiangosed. And again -why did you

put

> apraxia in the subject?

>

> If I were you I'd fly him to see Dr. Agin (if that's financially

> possible) to secure an appropriate diagnosis. You're going to have

> to help him work really hard to catch him up. If he is globally

> apraxic it would explain why no progress and you can take the focus

> off autism and put it just in helping him with his apraxia. It's

> clear that the direction he's in is a nonverbal one. That's fine

as

> long as he's provided alternative ways to communicate (for example

> schooled as if he was hearing impaired but given appropriate

> academics)

>

> Outside of a cognitive impairment however -there's no reason at all

> why your child is still nonverbal...unless his diagnosis, therapy

> and/or placement is all wrong. That's what I believe.

>

> If you want me to help you please call me at 772 335 5135 and I'll

> see what I can do to put you in touch with professionals in your

area

> that can help. He's still young -there's time.

>

> 's mom Robin didn't find this group until was 17 -

all

> those years they thought was autistic or MR. Please don't

> let this goes on any longer than it did. Robin wrote the following

> to help prevent other children from going through what

did.

> today is 20 years old and just learning to talk.

> http://www.cherab.org/news/.html

>

> There's always hope no matter what age -but your son is not even 6

> years old yet.

>

> Not all apraxic children are autistic -most are not -and this is

the

> danger from lumping all of our children together. If I sound

upset

> it's not at you Marcia. My heart goes out to you and your poor

son -

> and I do hope there's something we as a group or I can do to help.

> All children deserve a voice- and a chance to achieve their full

> potential.

>

> =====

>

[Guest guest]

Has he been tested for expressive language using other methods (pecs)

to see what is in his head rather than just saying he cannot " talk "

beyond a 9 month old? It does sound like you need a better picture of

what he is thinking and able to do before you can determine the right

fit of any program or school.

> >

> > The school you describe is wrong for apraxia (outside of PECs of

> > course) If he's apraxic and not autistic it's sad but

> understandable

> > why he's still non-verbal at 5 1/2 as he not in appropriate

> > placement. He's almost 6 and you're considering another school

> > that's not appropriate for apraxia either. Apraxic children don't

> > need to be engaged -they need to be taught how to overcome their

> > frustrating motor planning disorder that today typically co-exists

> > with sensory issues...so now add the frustration of being

> > misdiagnosed as autistic on top of that because of the sensory

> > issues! Autism gets all the funding but that doesn't mean all the

> > children today should be diagnosed with it. Yes there could be

> > overlaps and yes many children with autism today have apraxia

(just

> > like many have DSI) and perhaps apraxia is part of the spectrum -

but

> > apraxia in itself is not autism and requires a specific intensive

> > approach. Apraxic children desperately want to be able to talk -

> they

> > can't no matter how engaging one is to them -no matter how many

> > rewards or punishments one gives to them -they need to be taught

> > through specific appropriate motor planning therapies and

typically

> > with additional oral motor, strengthening (and sensory) therapies

> too

> > and best done in a multisensory way. And sure if you want to

engage

> > or reward them during their therapy that's appropriate. It's not

> > appropriate to assume they can talk -but won't -when they can't.

> You

> > also want your child in the least restrictive environment which

> means

> > if your child can be mainstreamed he should be.

> >

> > What is/are your child's main issue/s? There's got to be another

> > school option that's appropriate for apraxia. What state are

you

> > in? I'm guessing your child is apraxic since that's in the

> subject -

> > but even if someone diagnosed your child autistic -if he's not

> > progressing perhaps the diagnosis is wrong. It appears to me many

> > children today are misdiagnosed as autistic -perhaps names

shouldn't

> > matter -but therapy and placement do. You need to have an

accurate

> > diagnosis so you can secure appropriate placement and therapy.

> >

> > =====

> >