Re: The Police

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 12/20/03 10:15:23 AM Eastern Standard Time,

ssamuelhart@... writes:

A woman with whom I taught was almost arrested over some student's

reprehensible lies. The kid was disturbed and falsely accused the teacher of

smacking

her. The same kid lied about me. Well, the police were called and a lot was

said, but nothing, thank God, was done. This is sort of falsehood against

teachers is very, very common in the schools.

This is the sort of thing that makes teachers call the police over students

that threaten them or attack them. The teachers say, well, if some kid or

parent can call the police over a lie, then when a student slaps, hits, or

threatens me, I will call the police. It is a sad situation, but I can

understand

the reasoning. I've been there.

I agree--It's a damn shame. But people have to CYA. You just DO.

On the other hand, and somehow I KNOW I will get flamed for this, disability

or not, a child HAS to learn that hitting another person, be it another

student, or a teacher or admisinstrator cannot and will not be tolerated. Under

any

circumstances.

Would YOU like to be hit by somebody? WOuld you like to be sitting there

trying to do your school work, and have an out of control child hit you with a

book, his fist, kick you, or God forbid hit you with a chair? What if it were

YOUR child that was hit? How would you feel then?

Believe me, I live BOTH sides of it. I have a hitter and a hittee. (LOL) It

is NOT to be tolerated.

I cannot comment as to the rest, as I wasn't there. It certainly doesn't

SOUND like the abuse was provoked. Thus it would be wrong.

But as far as the child being disciplined for hitting another person, I agree

it's unfortunate but it has to be done.

Just because our children have special needs, and can have tremendous

difficulties, they still need to be taught that SOME things are ALWAYS WRONG.

It is

the school's responsibility to keep EVERYONE safe.

Sorry, I just felt I had to add just a little bit of the other side to this

discussion.

Connie

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 12/20/03 3:44:51 PM Eastern Standard Time,

uplift@... writes:

I don't think anyone will disagree with this, Connie, it is just the way in

which it was dealt with that we are discussing here.

From what I read, the biggest problem was the way the PARENT was dealt with.

Unless I missed an important post, it didn't sound like anything bad was done

to the child. Sure, the police were called. The police get called for all

kinds of nonsense every day out on the streets. You would believe the crap

people

call for.

Sure, it sounds like brutality to all of us. And I am NOT saying it isn't.

Not by a long shot. BUT---- do WE know all the details?

I know I have to be honest and say IF I personally had acted in even the

SLIGHTEST way inappropriately, I might not admit to it. It certainly sounds like

the police officer over reacted. Which would be wrong.

But to have the police called? In OUR school system, I have no doubt if it

involved physical aggression, they might be called.

I totally understand that a child might be incapable of controlling him or

herself in certain situations. If it happens too often, that MIGHT be an

indicator that the child is in an inappropriate placement. LRE doesn't always

mean

mainstream. That may not BE the best for our children, no matter what we

ideally WANT. Sometimes a LITTLE restrictive IS in the child's best interest.

Something that can and SHOULD over ride the child's " rights to LRE " is when and

if

he is a danger to himself or somebody else. And that includes should he have to

be restrained.

(GASP!) Oh, I know some parents are vehemently against their child ever being

restrained. But the need for it CAN arise. I'd rather my child were

restrained appropriately than for him or somebody else to be hurt. It's called

assault,

and it is legally prosecutable, disability or not. And I'd DAMN sure want

somebody ELSE'S child to be restrained if it meant keeping MY child from being

injured.

Now I can't comment for sure, in this case, because I don't know the child or

his history.

BUT-- I DO know MY child's history, and when his behavior is inappropriate to

the point of physical aggression on somebody else, he should be expected to,

and HAS paid the consequences. ASK ! He is on probation right now, and

spent all of today doing some of his community service. He cut another child

with a knife. Violation of HIS rights, (shrug) maybe. He WAS taunted, and the

child involved knew he has a short temper. But that doesn't change the fact

that what he did was a felony, and he has to pay the price for it.

Sorry if this upsets any one, but I'VE BTDT.

Connie

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 12/20/03 1:24:32 PM Eastern Standard Time,

roxanna_neely@... writes:

An example happened to Reece last week. He had two incidents happen. In

one, he ripped another kids paper and the other kid was really upset about it.

Later in the afternoon, he was laying on the gym floor and refused to move and

another kid (different kid, lol) came up and stepped on his hands when he

wouldn't move. They worked with Reece for both these situations. And for the

situation in which the other kid stepped on his hand, they had Reece think of

ways HE could have avoided having it happen (i.e. move when asked to move next

time)

All these three boys are in second grade and nobody was suspended or arrested

for their social crimes! I like that both for when Reece is the problem and

for when he the one getting hurt too.

I would HOPE nobody was suspended! Those certainly don't sound like

" suspendable " offenses.

's teacher is quite black and white with what is a severe offense and

what is not. She said one of HER kids will almost never be suspended. UNLESS it

is a blatant physical attack. And that is not only policy, but the law, and

certainly the victim's right.

That woman is amazing though. SHe ought to be sainted when she dies. She has

WAAAAAAAAAY more patience than I do, and there are many times that SHE can get

something out of that I am unable to .

But I have to say, if Reece was asked to move and didn't and the child

PURPOSELY stepped on him, I would have a big problem with that.

Connie

[Guest guest]

<<<<On the other hand, and somehow I KNOW I will get flamed for this,

disability

or not, a child HAS to learn that hitting another person, be it another

student, or a teacher or admisinstrator cannot and will not be tolerated.

Under any

circumstances.>>>>

I don't think anyone gets flamed on this list...

we may disagree fervently, though.

If a child hits because of TS or AS, just like if it were a child with Dopwn

syndrome in a rage (yes, it does happen, I have worked with adolescents like

this) , yu DO remamber that the dsiability behind teh scene, so to speak. I

agree with you totally that violence should not be tolerated, but how you

deal with a student definitely depends on teh casue of his outburst.

And certainly , what was described in the case of Jeannine's osn, went way

overboard, and she is right in seeking justice for herself and her child,

and probably it will also serve otehr students there in the future too.

<<< What if it were

YOUR child that was hit? How would you feel then?>

my dd's class has a child with PDD , some of the time he has an aid, mostly

he does not, and he has had many tantrums , some of them violent, and she

was upset and even hit once by him, and no, no one called teh police, but

helped her understand why it happened, and helped HIM understand why he can

t do that. My own ds with AS has been hit so many times too. he did not

learn to hit from nowhere....

<,Just because our children have special needs, and can have tremendous

difficulties, they still need to be taught that SOME things are ALWAYS WRONG

It is

the school's responsibility to keep EVERYONE safe.>

I don't think anyone will disagree with this, Connie, it is just the way in

which it was dealt with that we are discussing here.

F

[Guest guest]

Roxanna wrote:

>>I agree with you - that it should not be tolerated at all. But the part I

disagree with the school's usual way of doing things is that they need to assess

the problem and address it rather than just suspend or punish the kid with

special needs. For most NT kids, that might be enough for them to get it. For

some kids, such as those with autism, they might not know what was wrong or they

may feel justified and then wrongly punished. If you leave it that way, it's

just going to happen again unless and until you provide whatever is needed to

make the child learn that this is not how to handle the problem. So I would

agree we need to remove the child and deal with the problem but I don't think a

lot of school's deal with it very well. <<

These are my feelings exactly. Appropriately dealing with frustration is a major

social skill that almost all AS people need to work on. I wholeheartedly

agree that AS kids need to be taught that screaming, hitting and attacking are

totally unacceptable at ALL TIMES (which I DO teach my son this, and it DOES get

through to him, slowly but surely), but I also completely agree that public

school's traditional methods for teaching special needs kids appropriate

responses to anger/ hurt/ humiliation were completely inappropriate in most

cases, and in many cases exacerbate the problem. And I do not agree that

calling the police on a 9 year old is EVER appropriate unless the child clearly

tried to commit murder or blow everyone up right then and there or something,

and even then, I don't think there's a court around that would convict a special

needs 9yo in such cases and I have to wonder if social services isn't the more

appropriate agency to call in such a situation anyway. And while the goal is to

teach the child that his/her behavior is unacceptable, I DO think that

exceptions need to be made for exceptional children - just like exceptions are

made in courts of law, because the law understands that there are people who

cannot comprehend or process right from wrong the way " NT " people can, and so

their culpability with certain actions is lessened.

[Guest guest]

<<<

Sorry if this upsets any one, but I'VE BTDT.>

doesn't upset me, in circumstances like you described here I agree with you.

waht is BTDT ??

F

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 12/21/03 1:13:13 AM Eastern Standard Time,

order@... writes:

And I do not agree that calling the police on a 9 year old is EVER

appropriate unless the child clearly tried to commit murder or blow everyone up

right

then and there or something, and even then, I don't think there's a court

around that would convict a special needs 9yo in such cases and I have to wonder

if

social services isn't the more appropriate agency to call in such a situation

anyway. And while the goal is to teach the child that his/her behavior is

unacceptable, I DO think that exceptions need to be made for exceptional

children - just like exceptions are made in courts of law, because the law

understands that there are people who cannot comprehend or process right from

wrong the

way " NT " people can, and so their culpability with certain actions is

lessened.

Well, I can tell you that there ARE courts that will convict (well, not

convict really-- jevenile court is run differently than adult court) a minor

child

who assaults somebody else. MY child is proof of that. He used a knife on

another child. He was (and rightfull so) punished for it.

Connie

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 12/21/03 11:04:43 AM Eastern Standard Time,

order@... writes:

Connie, with all due respect, if the conviction came without consideration to

how his disability affects his ability to make moral choices with regard to

the law, then all I can say is that next time you might want to get a lawyer

that specializes in defending people with mental/ behavorial disabilities.

I don't know the details of your case, including how old your son is, or what

his dx is, or what happened, so I can't comment any further. And that's not

to say that he should have walked off scot-free. But if that conviction (or

whatever) came without ANY consideration for his disability... I'd be pretty

mad at my lawyer right now if I were you.

It DIDN'T. They are fully aware of his problems and all that is involved.

Besides, I wouldn't WANT him to walk away from it. He has to learn that there is

a difference between having issues and using them to excuse bad behavior. HE

chose to take a knife outside. It's not like he carries one around with him.

Connie

[Guest guest]

What is BTDT? This is Jeannine, the mother of an Autistic, Tourette's

Syndrome 9 year old son of which the school called the police on last

Wednesday and I ended up brutally assaulted by a Shelby Township, MI police

office. I will update members as this situation unfolds. Let us all pray

for justice for the sake and love of our disabled children. Thank you for

your continued support! Jeannine Somberg

Re: ( ) The Police

>

>

> <<<

> Sorry if this upsets any one, but I'VE BTDT.>

>

> doesn't upset me, in circumstances like you described here I agree with

you.

> waht is BTDT ??

> F

>

>

[Guest guest]

waht is BTDT ??

F<

It's been there done that... which we all have... Happy Hanukah Fania- and

anyone else of the Jewish Faith here!

[Guest guest]

>> I can tell you that there ARE courts that will convict (well, not

convict really-- jevenile court is run differently than adult court) a minor

child

who assaults somebody else. MY child is proof of that. He used a knife on

another child. He was (and rightfull so) punished for it.<<

Connie, with all due respect, if the conviction came without consideration to

how his disability affects his ability to make moral choices with regard to the

law, then all I can say is that next time you might want to get a lawyer that

specializes in defending people with mental/ behavorial disabilities.

I don't know the details of your case, including how old your son is, or what

his dx is, or what happened, so I can't comment any further. And that's not to

say that he should have walked off scot-free. But if that conviction (or

whatever) came without ANY consideration for his disability... I'd be pretty mad

at my lawyer right now if I were you.