Re: Kate's deliberately failing so she doesn't have to go ...

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 4/29/03 11:26:26 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

snperry2@... writes:

> Do I exist?

>

> guess not.

>

>

>

Well, I only have 22 things to do today and Reece has an ear infection and I

think he gave it all to me because my throat is killing me and I'm having

trouble staying awake and Royce is downstairs with a tummy ache and the dog

pooped on the carpet and Ryder just gave the jar of peanut butter to the dog

and when I was at the local autism meeting last night, the kids destroyed the

house and why does my head hurt? lol. Luckily it's lunch time and the boys

made popcorn.

<< My 12 year old wants to make people happy

so she will find a way to compromise verbally with what others want.  Her

dad has been really on this kick since the courts set visitation at summer

for 4 weeks with 2 out of state to visit family of pushing that issue.  She

has been saying for months now she doesn't want to go to his house. 

>>

What if she is telling you what you want to hear just to make you happy?

<<now she's back to saying she

doesn't want to go at all, and she is now failing 6th grade math and has a D

in science plus all the classes she had a's and b's in are now c's.  She has

a girl at school giving her a hard time again. Same girl.  But the biggest

issue SEEMS to be that she really really doesn't want to go to her dad's or

to Tn because by coincidence summer school is the 2 weeks she is supposed to

be with her dad.  Anybody got any ideas on how I can get her to fess up

without it looking like I'm meddling,

>>

You can't do anything without looking like you are meddling. Unless her

father is going to abuse her, she should be encouraged to have a good

relationship with him no matter what you think about him, IMO. She could

grow up to have a lot of baggage if she can't get her father/daughter

relationship worked out and you don't want that for her!

Is this the first time she is going to visit her dad in Tennessee? You

should find some good things to say about her trip this summer so she looks

forward to it and isn't so stressed about it. It's her dad, after all. You

divorced him but she didn't. It's probably really hard for her to be caught

in the middle as she is. He may be a real creep to you but it's still her

dad. And if she has a habit of trying to make everyone happy, then the

stress of trying to do that is probably the larger share of her failing in

school - this includes trying to make you happy. She's going to be a basket

case if it continues.

Have her dad send up some brochures of things they will do when she visits so

she can get excited about her trip and stop stressing about it so much. And

if it were me, I'd just not say anything because my disapproval would be

difficult for her to handle as much as everything else going on in her life.

Prepare her for her trip so she can make it and celebrate her climb towards

independence. Do whatever it takes to help her achieve this trip with the

least amount of trouble/problems for her. That would be my primary goal.

JMHO.

Roxanna ö¿ö

" ...don't forget what happened to the man who suddenly got everything he'd

ever wished for...

He lived happily ever after. "

Willy Wonka

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 4/29/2003 9:47:11 AM Pacific Daylight Time,

kneeleee@... writes:

> It's her dad, after all. You

> divorced him but she didn't. It's probably really hard for her to be

> caught

> in the middle as she is. He may be a real creep to you but it's still her

> dad.

,

Over the years....been 15 of them since I left my dd dad or I should say the

other way around...we have had lots of discussions. I have tried my best not

to let my own feelings get involved with her relationship with her dad and

that has been really HARD. However, when I slipped up, she gave me a much

needed talk (sometimes kids do that as they get older) about saying negative

things about her dad. I really realized how much of what I say directly and

indirectly affects her. She moved out to leave the " control " environment of

my house and went to her dad's (at age 14 in CA they can chose) It was the

hardest 2 years for me and lots of tears were shed, but she had to establish

a relationship with him whether it be good or bad it had to happen. Last

September she left and moved back in. Here is a teenager who had an

incredible amount of freedom and just about all that she could ask for on

that level, but she didn't feel like he cared. I have to say she is a

different person now....not as angry. She even got mad at him for letting

her do things that she wanted but she read into it that he didn't care. He

was trying to be her friend only and not a parent. His words were that " his

experiment didn't work " . I guess what I am trying to convey is that it IS

really hard to let them go with the other parent, but unless there is abuse

happening, they need that relationship. She will figure out if he is a good

guy or not on her own and the best thing to do is to remain neutral. I agree

with Roxanna that if it is inevitably that she is going, try to make it fun

for her. The grades dropping etc sound like stress, but hard to say. My dd

was cutting class and grades dropped as a result before she left. I really

have to be careful what I say about my dd father, but the result is worth it.

If I start talking negative about him then I am the one that she loses

respect for not him. Doing it just makes me look bad and then she shares

less. Hang in there with this.....

Maybe you can plan some " me " time this summer while she is there to keep

your mind off of it and to do something good for just you!

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 4/29/2003 11:26:37 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

snperry2@... writes:

> Anybody got any ideas on how I can get her to fess up

> without it looking like I'm meddling, because my ex really likes to beat

> the

> parent alienation drum and the courts are not versed on AS or the fact that

> PA is a load of crap

> Can you approach the school with this problem? I would go to the

school and ask that a counselor be assigned to watch her grades and have

long talk with her, if Kate is anything like my son, he at 12 has decided

that mom is the last person he wants to talk to hopefully the teenage years

will get better.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 4/29/2003 12:43:51 PM Pacific Daylight Time,

snperry2@... writes:

> The problem with Abuse issues is that while

> they are documented and significant, unless and until she actually ends up

> in a hospital the courts will not do anything. He still swings. He still

> has " interesting' um relationships.

That is completely wrong and I can see why you are so frustrated!!! A

swinger, huh? Oh, boy.

I guess the best thing that can be done you are already doing with the

psychologist..... thankfully she will get to chose if she wants to visit him

at some point, but I can understand why you are so concerned....just wish I

had good suggestions for you. It does sound like you are doing the best you

can given the constraints of the courts etc. I'm just surprised that the

courts are so lackadaisical when he has been abusive to you.

Johanna

[Guest guest]

Gee don't understand that. I have 4 kids in this house. We've lost a

hamster some time during the night that belongs to the #2 child. The As

child comes back from her dad's trying out behavior that we work real hard

in therapy to get under control or a concept of why that behavior is

inappropriate. We are sitting in her room and following her around again

constantly to make sure that she doesn't hurt herself or anyone else and

that she does the things she is supposed to. I'm trying to find a job and

hoping that this time my ex doesn't come in and cause a problem like he did

the last time which cost my a job where I was allowed to have the kids with

me no charge. I'm behind on my house payments my husband has been deployed

and our income took a huge hit because of it. Every one here is dying form

allergies. My younger 2 and my husband and I have no health insurance

because we couldn't afford it and make the house and the utilities and cover

the non medical physical therapy for K & A. My ex undermines the school

and the therapists at every turn lies about everything including and

especiallycompliance with the court orders regarding the treatment plan.

(He's supposed to go to parent teacher conferences, provide the school with

information and envelopes so they can mail him what's going on and

participate in the semi-annual IEP updates. We do them at the end of school

and before Christmas) Only participates when he feels like it. He has been

known often to dump the kids or cancel abruptly plans if he can't bully

them into dropping out if what ever it is they are doing. He has gotten

into screaming matches with the 9 year old as recently as Christmas in front

of god and everybody His 22 year old wife has decided she is an expert on

the kids & tells me how I am raising the kids wrong and that I should allow

K to fail school and repeat the 6th grade. We now do child exchange at the

police department and I have a restraining order against his coming to my

house and work should I ever get a job again because of past behavior. I

can keep going. He continually threatens and harasses either me or my

attorney over any imagined infraction he can come up with through mail and

phone calls. He has attempted to harass most of the therapists and doctors

to the point that we had to change swim groups so that K could get what she

needed. Both girls tell their teachers how badly they DON'T want to see

him...The girls do not have a room of their own in his 3 br house and no he

doesn't have any other kids. We had to get a judge to tell him he shouldn't

be walking into the girls rooms when they are changing clothes at this age.

We had to get court orders to make sure he gave them their meds and took

them to therapy and didn't just take off with them out of state. He has

threatened to take them away SO many times. He has said I am a bad parent

to them LOTS. We had to force him to legally recognize that she has AS and

it isn't going away. He has thrown things at all of us. He has hit me in

front of them.he has created huge scenes when he didn't get his way of

telling the girls they aren't his children and he wasn't ever going to see

them again then turns around and expects everything to be just fine. He was

furious when I changed the locks on the house. He has redirected bills and

mail of mine so that I didn't receive it to places we haven't lived in ten

years or to his home then tells the bill people he doesn't know where I am.

He has this year while they were doing school stuff sat outside rather than

pay the $1 to come watch them play. He never went to a school production.

He lied again about talking to K's teachers this year because he tried to

say it was sister somebody... I hasn't had a nun at all this year for a

teacher nor has A. She doesn't want to go because he speeds and he never

stops for pee breaks and drinks her words. All they do is go between the

relatives houses and eat out a lot usually taco bell or Mcs...and she

HATES both of those. My ex mil doesn't cook. Cant cook. Wont cook. Not e

ven hamburger helper. not even oatmeal. K dislikes meat mostly so she eats

a lot of veggies. and he is completely opposite. They both get puking sick

on greasy stuff. She says she likes the stability of " home " with routine.

with her room and stuff and knowing what's going on. We have provided

information. We have given materials and resources. We have given contact

info and invited him to participate in dr appointments and IEPS and and and.

She has actually tried to tell him to his face but he tells her she is just

saying what I want her to say. the other one same thing. She has come back

running 104 fevers just dumped off no notice. She came back last fall with

a 4 inch gash in her leg that should have had stitches and was still

bleeding but not a word was said and not treatment sought. We had to fight

with him to get him to carry medical insurance like he was supposed to and

to just pay half the medical stuff not covered by insurance in court. He

has trashed on every accomplishment and told her she doesn't need to do

those things. he has told her she doesn't have asperger's though we have 2

complete medical reports showing that she does spaced 3 years apart. He has

told her that her doctors don't know what they are talking about. her

teachers aren't doing their jobs et cetera and so forth. I know that I am

fantastically blessed in the areas most everyone here has problems but this

ex of mine is for lack of a better way of putting it politely a real heavy

cross to bear for all of us in this house... She complains because she says

they either try to poke around in her head trying to trick her into saying

stuff, they tape her phone conversations if she tries to call home, or they

just sit in front of the computer or TV without talking and both girls are

very lonely. They complain about not being treated like they have brains

and (ok I am laughing myself silly on this one but it's important to K) not

being allowed to do regular chores or have control over some aspects of the

decision making. She complains about feeling like they are they just

because it annoys me. She said she heard them talking about how they wish

they didn't have to have them. It's been said but anyway I can keep going

and I try very hard to say very little regarding the whole. I know all the

relationship things. the problem is, I don't want her to self-destruct

avoiding the problems which is what she does. She really truly believes

that if she wishes hard enough things will get better the issues will just

disappear and if she gives everyone what they want they will all love her

and she will be popular (HUGE school issue, not the teachers just certain

students taking advantage). The problem with Abuse issues is that while

they are documented and significant, unless and until she actually ends up

in a hospital the courts will not do anything. He still swings. He still

has " interesting' um relationships. I'm not talking gay which is so NOT an

issue with me (and I WISH this was the situation, cuz I could work with it)

it's the weird crap and the cameras and the keeping the kids from talking to

their friends at stuff and following the kids around like he doesn't have a

friend in the world then all the sudden disappearing gets in car and leaves

when they re supposed to be with him and I get phone calls about why I'm not

there, when it's his weekend and he brought them or them showing up at

stuff unbathed (noticeably). Kate really believes that if she can just say

the right things and come up with the right present it will fix everything.

Unfortunately, she doesn't buy it from others, and she sees when her dad

does it because at almost 13 Mcs toys don't quite do it any more...She

wakes up in the night, though usually I have to wake her, with screaming

dreams from what happened before September with her dad. She tells me the

stuff is still happening. What am I supposed to do? I forced them to invite

him to father daughter dance. I forced them to invite him to all of their

stuff. I literally have to sit there and make them dial the phone or I will

be blamed for not supporting their relationship with their father. I still

get blamed even though I provide the info and make the arrangements for him

regarding school and everything else, and never ask him for anything. I am

so frustrated and I will not say anything to her or her sister about the

nasty e-mails I get every other day from him and his wife. I am so fed up--

the only good thing is he sends them to my attorney as well, and we wait to

see if he continues past a certain date, point about stuff.

Am I more clear about the problems?

<< My 12 year old wants to make people happy

so she will find a way to compromise verbally with what others want. Her

dad has been really on this kick since the courts set visitation at summer

for 4 weeks with 2 out of state to visit family of pushing that issue. She

has been saying for months now she doesn't want to go to his house.

>>

What if she is telling you what you want to hear just to make you happy?

<<now she's back to saying she

doesn't want to go at all, and she is now failing 6th grade math and has a D

in science plus all the classes she had a's and b's in are now c's. She has

a girl at school giving her a hard time again. Same girl. But the biggest

issue SEEMS to be that she really really doesn't want to go to her dad's or

to Tn because by coincidence summer school is the 2 weeks she is supposed to

be with her dad. Anybody got any ideas on how I can get her to fess up

without it looking like I'm meddling,

>>

You can't do anything without looking like you are meddling. Unless her

father is going to abuse her, she should be encouraged to have a good

relationship with him no matter what you think about him, IMO. She could

grow up to have a lot of baggage if she can't get her father/daughter

relationship worked out and you don't want that for her!

Is this the first time she is going to visit her dad in Tennessee? You

should find some good things to say about her trip this summer so she looks

forward to it and isn't so stressed about it. It's her dad, after all. You

divorced him but she didn't. It's probably really hard for her to be caught

in the middle as she is. He may be a real creep to you but it's still her

dad. And if she has a habit of trying to make everyone happy, then the

stress of trying to do that is probably the larger share of her failing in

school - this includes trying to make you happy. She's going to be a basket

case if it continues.

Have her dad send up some brochures of things they will do when she visits

so

she can get excited about her trip and stop stressing about it so much. And

if it were me, I'd just not say anything because my disapproval would be

difficult for her to handle as much as everything else going on in her life.

Prepare her for her trip so she can make it and celebrate her climb towards

independence. Do whatever it takes to help her achieve this trip with the

least amount of trouble/problems for her. That would be my primary goal.

JMHO.

Roxanna ö¿ö

" ...don't forget what happened to the man who suddenly got everything he'd

ever wished for...

He lived happily ever after. "

Willy Wonka

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 4/29/03 3:43:11 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

snperry2@... writes:

<<Gee don't understand that.  I have 4 kids in this house.  We've lost a

hamster some time during the night that belongs to the #2 child.  The As

child comes back from her dad's trying out behavior that we work real hard

in therapy to get under control or a concept of why that behavior is

inappropriate.

>>

I really wasn't trying to compete with anyone about their bad days. I was

just trying to respond that there was a lot I was dealing with and I can't

always answer posts as soon as they hit my box. It seemed like you posted

and then posted again when nobody wrote back. But it takes time sometimes

because we might have things happening at our own homes to deal with.

> I am

> so frustrated and I will not say anything to her or her sister about the

> nasty e-mails I get every other day from him and his wife. I am so fed

> up--

> the only good thing is he sends them to my attorney as well, and we wait to

> see if he continues past a certain date, point about stuff.

>

> Am I more clear about the problems?

>

Yes, clearer but what is it that you are asking? There is really nothing we

could do or say to change this situation. He's her dad and that's the way it

is. If he's abusing her, then get a better lawyer. Otherwise, she has to

see him as long as he wants to play dad. I'm not sure at what age she gets

to decide if she goes or not but you might ask an attorney if there is a

specific age where the child's wishes are factored into it. Otherwise, you

just have to prepare her the best you can for her trip. Is there a choice

that I missed?

Also, if she's seeing an expert in AS, why not ask that person to help since

that person knows her directly and could probably offer better ideas knowing

the whole situation. But you can't make a person (your ex) believe what they

don't want to believe. No court order in the world will make that happen.

Roxanna ôô

What doesn't kill us

Makes us really mean.

[Guest guest]

I have recently been to court for my divorce. Unfortunatly the courts are

totally sympathic to the plight of " DAD " .

IMO

1 - the court will give them enough rope to hang themselves.

2 - they will do it their way and the kids will know that.

As for your daughter, teach her that SHE is allowed to speak up. This is

difficult with my AS son but he is trying with his Dad. When you send her to

visit him make him understands that she has school work to do since she missed

summer school and that HE as DAD is responsible for her upkeeping the

assignments ( get them from her teachers they should be able to provide you with

them). DAD and MOM all year round have a responsibility to help their children.

SHe and he will learn that school is important and even with her with him they

know HE must act like Dad and she as duaghter.

Thought I was never physically abused the emotional abuse can be just as

scaring. But never allow her to take physically abouse from him. Have her call

the police or someone she can trust who lives near him ( AUnt, Uncle, Cousin

ect. ). I have a freind who's ex- got nasty with the kids and gave the BS to

the courts that she was influencing them when he came to pick them up. So she

was told to get someone he may trust to be there when he came to get the kids.

They got into a scene and she had to be called to come home to diffuse it. At

least now when she goes to court she has someone else there.

LASTLY, Players will alwyas be players. Tell him to KEEP IT AWAY from the

children. ITs only a few days and he can manage. Mine loved the internet stuff

and " fell in love " for a short time while looking for " players " plural. I have

told him in no uncertain terms that he is to do that on his time not on his

DADDY time. He says he'd never do anything and never did before he was just

" looking " . So much for 16 years of marriage.

Anyhow, keep on him to be DAD if he feels he's being unfairly treated. Make

sure it includes everything that a DAD should do espically single ones.

in NJ

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 4/30/03 2:16:56 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

snperry2@... writes:

> I

> just wish there were better laws addressing health issues and kids and

> non-custodial parents or better advocacy or something.

>

>

,

thanks for explaining it again.

Now bear with me because I've never had to deal with the courts in relation

to the children before so this might be a stupid statement. If the court

demands that the father follow through with the treatment plan, wouldn't the

court want proof that he has done so? It would seem to me that the burden of

proof is upon the father to prove that he is doing what he was ordered to do.

But from your statements, I am guessing that it's the opposite? That

doesn't really make sense. I would think (logically) that if you hauled him

into court for noncompliance, he would want to have data assembled showing he

is complying.

I see now why you want Kate to speak up for herself. This is a social

problem, IMO and the speech therapist could work on this as a goal at school.

I know when Royce was going to school in elementary and getting picked on,

he never could come home and tell me what was wrong. He just came home in a

bad mood and growled at me. He would spin things or pull his hair out in the

front or shred paper. I always had to track down what happened. Half the

time, nobody paid attention to what had happened.

The only thing I think I did to even marginally change this is to keep

telling Royce that I could help him in situations if I knew what was wrong.

He did start telling me little pieces and then I made it obvious that I went

into school and advocated for him. I think as he saw that I really was

helping and on his side, he started to catch on and wanting to tell me more.

It's still not perfect.

As for him speaking up for himself, it doesn't really happen. I know that

one goal we've had is for him to actually order food at a restaurant - be it

Mc's or a fancy sit down place. He still tends to look down and mumble

his order. If he has trouble doing that, I wonder how he would advocate for

himself against an adult? The more stressful the situation, the less likely

he is to even speak.

You might try having her learn how to write things down. She could keep a

diary herself and then share it with you when she returns from each visit?

That is one way that she could speak up for herself without actually speaking

up to her dad. At least, you would be able to see what was going on. If the

dad has online access, see if she can email you each night??? Another idea I

had was to make her a daily chart of things she needs to accomplish each day

- I mean for things like taking a bath, her teeth and taking her meds. Then

she could check each thing off per day and you could see if she was doing it.

If I think of anything else, I'll write again. I know this is really awful

for you guys. I wish there were some easy answers. I can't imagine having

to deal with this on top of everything else. I know when Connie wrote the

other day that had passed out in the shower because his dad doesn't

want him to take his meds, it makes me want to scream! Maybe Connie has some

ideas???

CONNIE???

Roxanna ôô

What doesn't kill us

Makes us really mean.

[Guest guest]

> I really wasn't trying to compete with anyone about their bad

days. I was

> just trying to respond that there was a lot I was dealing with and

I can't

> always answer posts as soon as they hit my box. It seemed like you

posted

> and then posted again when nobody wrote back. But it takes time

sometimes

> because we might have things happening at our own homes to deal

with.

> Roxanna ôô

Your advice is always worth waiting for Roxanna!!

Kathy

[Guest guest]

It's that unless I hire a private detective and have better info on exactly

what he is doing the courts really can't do anything. Have to have absolute

proof. The law treats life like a math theorem. You have to have your

facts in order with irrefutable evidence. There is also a belief in the

courts that IF the parents are no longer being in contact with each other or

living together then the noncustodial parent will probably not continue in

the same abusive behavior towards the other parent and not towards the

child. Some states do recognize emotional abuse being still present.

Arkansas actually does which is why we got so much put in the order but

because there are no facilities for supervised visitation or for supervised

exchange within a reasonable driving distance (in the state) visitation

continues. Roxanna was unclear as to what my question is. I apologize for

being so witchy. This is what I am trying to figure out on how to help K.

I want her to tell people how she feels about x,y, z...instead of expecting

me to advocate for her in every issue. Unfortunately, 504's IEPs and all

those other things do not help when you are talking legal and " family "

relationship issues. There really is no legal precedent on this section and

for the state of Arkansas, what we got actually set a precedent in a VERY

quiet fashion of forcing a noncustodial parent to participate in treatment

issues and IF they choose not to, to not interfere. The precedent is that

it's not something people can readily see like downs syndrome or get a grasp

on like cancer or diabetes, but the value of the medical treatment however

unorthodox as long as we have it written and approved by docs and

therapists and so forth, if he doesn't follow through he will lose

visitation. The problem is enforcing it when we can't see what he is doing,

but can only base it off of what the kids tell us. We know when he lies

because he lies so badly, and it's usually so easily checked. The end

result of the relationships what the girls is that they have to learn how to

stand up for themselves and say how they feel to the person who is part of

the situation. Kate can't. If Kate could then Amber's would have more

ability to deal with her dad. Kate has to, because she is the oldest. Kate

absolutely can't because she is who she is and doesn't fight with anyone

EXCEPT when she is provoked beyond belief AND if it's an adult absolutely

not at all. Amber fights but Amber is NT and 9. Even though she is

absolutely brilliant, and tooo too mature for 9 what she says isn't counted

until she is considered mature enough by the courts. Here they do not get a

choice until they are 18 or can absolutely prove that it is " in their best

interest " ... It is expected that parents and children work these things

out, outside of court(boy wouldn't I love to!) I understand the law, I

understand the education issues and what my responsibilities are. I just

wish I knew how to help her not self destruct and wreck everything because

she is so afraid of dealing with situations, whether it's her dad or that

horrible girl at school that always teases her and makes fun of he, to the

girls that pretend to be her friends and trick her into saying or doing

stuff that's inappropriate. At least at the school there are girls she can

trust to look out for her, and parents who will land on their kids, like

white on rice, for being ugly... I know I know...everything takes time. I

just wish there were better laws addressing health issues and kids and

non-custodial parents or better advocacy or something.

Re: ( ) Kate's deliberately failing so she doesn't

have to go ...

> In a message dated 4/29/2003 12:43:51 PM Pacific Daylight Time,

> snperry2@... writes:

>

> > The problem with Abuse issues is that while

> > they are documented and significant, unless and until she actually ends

up

> > in a hospital the courts will not do anything. He still swings. He

still

> > has " interesting' um relationships.

>

> That is completely wrong and I can see why you are so frustrated!!! A

> swinger, huh? Oh, boy.

> I guess the best thing that can be done you are already doing with the

> psychologist..... thankfully she will get to chose if she wants to visit

him

> at some point, but I can understand why you are so concerned....just wish

I

> had good suggestions for you. It does sound like you are doing the best

you

> can given the constraints of the courts etc. I'm just surprised that the

> courts are so lackadaisical when he has been abusive to you.

> Johanna

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 4/30/03 4:20:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

rwinters@... writes:

> Your advice is always worth waiting for Roxanna!!

>

> Kathy

>

Thanks Kathy!

Roxanna ô¿ô

Autism Happens...