Re: HELP! New member ?s on ADHD/ODD, enzymes, and supplements.

[Guest guest]

> My daughter is working so hard to try to control her behavior, I feel

> guilty for not finding the " magic mix " for her supplements and/or

> diet to help her get there. Your help on this would be greatly

> appreciated!

>

> Hi Dawn, welcome.

>

> My daughter is seven. She went through a real difficult period of adjustment

> with enzymes last June. It was probably close to four weeks with the Peptizyde

> alone. Around that time she was really fixated on wanting a magic wand from

> the tooth fairy, writing her notes, etc. We all want the ³magic mix² so don¹t

> guilt trip. The way you describe her behavior sounds like it is die-off to me.

>

> I think the consensus is to take say Zyme Prime or Pep and give them each a

> month or so and keep track. Try one thing at a time as hard as that may be.

> Some supps may not be necessary once she is using enzymes regularly. I am not

> familiar with the amino acids you listed. Our DAN gave us glutamine initially

> to help with gut healing. For yeast, Grapefruit Seed Extract or other OTC

> methods can be helpful. I have a list I can post if you like.

>

> Her increase it appetite sounds like a good sign. This is exactly what

> happened with Grace. Once you work up to Pep and ZP- say a full cap at meals

> you should begin to see even more improvement.

>

> Serena

>

>

[Guest guest]

you can't just open slather on supplements and expect good results.

she has a leaky gut, chronic yeast and brain blood sugar issues and

other blood sugar issues. adhd is just the brain running on the

aadrenalin suagr metabloism because the normal brain sugar pathways

are not working adequately.

enzymes are most efficent sprinkled on food.

you will have to look at scd to undertsand how to feed her so that

gut issues are minimsed. i don't recomend the diet but it has to be

understood to make progress.

http://www.breakingtheviciouscycle.info/elaine/elaine.htm

you are going down rhe wrong road with those products you got from

gnc.

supplements are not simple, for example with zinc i have really only

found one type effective and thats optizinc(zinc methionine, i use

source naturals).........b vitmains, magensium...how much and what

forms?????????????

its like embroidery, you have to tease each detail out and correctly

execute it.

a hair test would be useful

some thoughts on minerals, 'the minerals i taae' in the index of

http://members.tripod.com/mueller_ranges/links/compendium/compendium.h

tml

i would remove any fluoride from toothpaste(i don't use toohpaste now)

or water and don't get any more vaccinations.

[Guest guest]

Thanks Serena. I just got off the phone with Asmus and your

recommendation was the same as hers. I guess I need to step back and

re-group and go one thing at a time. Thanks.

Dawn Schaller

-- In , Serena Hendricks

<serena@s...> wrote:

> > My daughter is working so hard to try to control her behavior, I

feel

> > guilty for not finding the " magic mix " for her supplements and/or

> > diet to help her get there. Your help on this would be greatly

> > appreciated!

> >

> > Hi Dawn, welcome.

> >

> > My daughter is seven. She went through a real difficult period of

adjustment

> > with enzymes last June. It was probably close to four weeks with

the Peptizyde

> > alone. Around that time she was really fixated on wanting a magic

wand from

> > the tooth fairy, writing her notes, etc. We all want the ³magic

mix² so don¹t

> > guilt trip. The way you describe her behavior sounds like it is

die-off to me.

> >

> > I think the consensus is to take say Zyme Prime or Pep and give

them each a

> > month or so and keep track. Try one thing at a time as hard as

that may be.

> > Some supps may not be necessary once she is using enzymes

regularly. I am not

> > familiar with the amino acids you listed. Our DAN gave us

glutamine initially

> > to help with gut healing. For yeast, Grapefruit Seed Extract or

other OTC

> > methods can be helpful. I have a list I can post if you like.

> >

> > Her increase it appetite sounds like a good sign. This is exactly

what

> > happened with Grace. Once you work up to Pep and ZP- say a full

cap at meals

> > you should begin to see even more improvement.

> >

> > Serena

> >

> >

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

,

> you can't just open slather on supplements and expect good results.

>

> she has a leaky gut, chronic yeast and brain blood sugar issues and

> other blood sugar issues. adhd is just the brain running on the

> aadrenalin suagr metabloism because the normal brain sugar pathways

> are not working adequately.

>

> enzymes are most efficent sprinkled on food.

I was sprinkling the No-Fenol and Prime Zyme on her peanut butter and

jelly rice cake sandwiches she was taking to school for snack and

lunch. There was no other way to get it into her at school. At home I

was mixing it with water and Splenda instead of putting it on her

food because she will take supplements this way, but doesn't trust

her food if anything has been added to it and then won't eat it and I

don't want to get to a position of distrust with her. Is that OK?

> you will have to look at scd to undertsand how to feed her so that

> gut issues are minimsed. i don't recomend the diet but it has to be

> understood to make progress.

> http://www.breakingtheviciouscycle.info/elaine/elaine.htm

I have looked at SCD and tried to integrate as much of it into her

diet as I could, but I will look again.

> you are going down rhe wrong road with those products you got from

> gnc.

>

> supplements are not simple, for example with zinc i have really

only

> found one type effective and thats optizinc(zinc methionine, i use

> source naturals).........b vitmains, magensium...how much and what

> forms?????????????

>

The zinc I was giving her was from zinc oxide and looking at the

ingredients I see it also included 1mg of copper, so maybe that's

part of the problem... I only have one more left of that, so I picked

up a different zinc suplement and it is GNC's Zinc 30 and it is

sourced from zinc gluconate,so maybe I need to find the Source

Naturals version... The B Vitamin supplement she has been taking is

from Nature Made, called Super C-Complex Supplement With Vitamin C.

It has 150mg vit c, 100mg thiamin, 20 mg riboflavin, 25mg niacin, 2mg

vit b6, 400 mcg folic acid, 15 mcg vit b12, 30 mcg biotin, and 5.5 mg

pantothenic acid. The biotin in that was low, which was why I bought

the GNC Biotin 300, which is 300 mcg of biotin. The magnesium is

Twinlab Magnesium Caps. It is 400 mg magnesium from magnesium oxide.

> its like embroidery, you have to tease each detail out and

correctly

> execute it.

>

>

> a hair test would be useful

I talked to Asmus this morning and we discussed the hair

test. She said that Doctor's Data in Chicago is the way to go for

that, so I will check that out unless anyone else has a better

suggestion...

> some thoughts on minerals, 'the minerals i taae' in the index of

>

>

http://members.tripod.com/mueller_ranges/links/compendium/compendium.h

> tml

>

>

> i would remove any fluoride from toothpaste(i don't use toohpaste

now)

We have well water here, so I know she is not getting fluoride from

the water she is in contact with and I only give her water that has

been filtered and then processed through reverse osmosis, so what she

drinks is not flouridated, but I have never seen a toothpaste without

flouride. Where can you get it?

>

> or water and don't get any more vaccinations.

I don't plan on getting her vacinnated anymore, but unfortunately,

she has already been given just about everything under the sun

already.

Thanks for your help.

Dawn Schaller

[Guest guest]

lauricidin doesn't suit all.

oreganol seems to be better.

splenda and rice are scd illegal................ don't know what to

think about the soys you say she did well on the soy formula. but

corn, potatoes rice grains sugar............ i think half the problem

with soy is the semi processed version that is called soy flour or

whatever used in bread mixes.

i think actually you are pushing it even sending her to school and

she is simply functioning much better for her biological state than

most. some kids can be extrodinarily functional for a very severe

degree of biological degree of disruption. this is usually the result

of several generations of asd traited parents.

so i would assume that things are quite severe and to get the

requisite metabolic gain you are going to need an approach from all

angles, 'bent' scd, enzymes minerals etc. just a disclaimer i really

am quite against chelation.

if theres any unwelcome mineral in the well water it should show in

the hair test.

zinc gluconate is ok but not brillant, zinc sulphate like a lot of

inorganic minerals is not well absorbed and feeds gut flora. zinc

oxide would have the same problem.

no fenol seems to have beenfits being taken with phenolic food as

well as being taken a while after eating. i do both depending. in

fact there ia big advantge to keeping a child out of school to

optimise supplements over the day.

theres a neural pruning that occurs about age 7 which is something to

think about. neural prunings are regressive events. they are a

reorganisation of the brain with quite a loss of nueral tissue. i

imagine that if there is any issue of a background virus in the brain

or immune hyperness/vaccine distortion it must be a nightmare.

the b vitmain doesn't look very balanced at all. 100 mg of b1 is

ahuge amount. one of the benefits of scd emphasis is that it seems to

free up the b vits, but if you were having good results with that b

vit then it may be the high thiamine which would indicate metals,

maybe lead issues but my feeling it it is way to high and unbalanced.

most supplements i find i use a fraction of a capsule or tablet to

the extent that supplement costs are not high. water soluble b vits

and things like vitmain c are best given in small doses say three

times a day which is another benefit of the child at home.

but the 'bent' scd i do has really dropped the supplements i need

back. another problem with b multis is i am not that happy with the

cyano form of b-12 they use.

magnesium oxide is a laxative. she will do well on the magensium

tautrate i think.(cardiovascualr research)

digestion and scd and enzymes need looking at stools to get a sense

of progress and problems. there is no perfect stool imo but you do

get a sense of what is constructive after a while. i think you will

really want good bile production to detox the liver which is

generally. a greenish tinge of the stool(not mucus) somtimes going to

dark if the bacteria are processing it.

immunocal may help since it does not appear she would tolerate the

lacotse of plain whey. i can't remembr whether you said you were

giving colostrum which may be similar to whey.

i really don't like toothpaste because of the other chemicals in it.

fluoride does help prevent decay so once you drop it you need the

other side wwhich is adequate mineralistion esp molybdenum(whey has

heaps of molybdenum) and no sugar of course. don't bother with non

sugar sweeteners they are just trouble.

> > you can't just open slather on supplements and expect good

results.

> >

> > she has a leaky gut, chronic yeast and brain blood sugar issues

and

> > other blood sugar issues. adhd is just the brain running on the

> > aadrenalin suagr metabloism because the normal brain sugar

pathways

> > are not working adequately.

> >

> > enzymes are most efficent sprinkled on food.

>

> I was sprinkling the No-Fenol and Prime Zyme on her peanut butter

and

> jelly rice cake sandwiches she was taking to school for snack and

> lunch. There was no other way to get it into her at school. At home

I

> was mixing it with water and Splenda instead of putting it on her

> food because she will take supplements this way, but doesn't trust

> her food if anything has been added to it and then won't eat it and

I

> don't want to get to a position of distrust with her. Is that OK?

>

>

> > you will have to look at scd to undertsand how to feed her so

that

> > gut issues are minimsed. i don't recomend the diet but it has to

be

> > understood to make progress.

> > http://www.breakingtheviciouscycle.info/elaine/elaine.htm

>

> I have looked at SCD and tried to integrate as much of it into her

> diet as I could, but I will look again.

>

>

> > you are going down rhe wrong road with those products you got

from

> > gnc.

> >

> > supplements are not simple, for example with zinc i have really

> only

> > found one type effective and thats optizinc(zinc methionine, i

use

> > source naturals).........b vitmains, magensium...how much and

what

> > forms?????????????

> >

>

> The zinc I was giving her was from zinc oxide and looking at the

> ingredients I see it also included 1mg of copper, so maybe that's

> part of the problem... I only have one more left of that, so I

picked

> up a different zinc suplement and it is GNC's Zinc 30 and it is

> sourced from zinc gluconate,so maybe I need to find the Source

> Naturals version... The B Vitamin supplement she has been taking

is

> from Nature Made, called Super C-Complex Supplement With Vitamin C.

> It has 150mg vit c, 100mg thiamin, 20 mg riboflavin, 25mg niacin,

2mg

> vit b6, 400 mcg folic acid, 15 mcg vit b12, 30 mcg biotin, and 5.5

mg

> pantothenic acid. The biotin in that was low, which was why I

bought

> the GNC Biotin 300, which is 300 mcg of biotin. The magnesium is

> Twinlab Magnesium Caps. It is 400 mg magnesium from magnesium oxide.

>

>

> > its like embroidery, you have to tease each detail out and

> correctly

> > execute it.

> >

> >

> > a hair test would be useful

>

> I talked to Asmus this morning and we discussed the hair

> test. She said that Doctor's Data in Chicago is the way to go for

> that, so I will check that out unless anyone else has a better

> suggestion...

>

>

> > some thoughts on minerals, 'the minerals i taae' in the index of

> >

> >

>

http://members.tripod.com/mueller_ranges/links/compendium/compendium.h

> > tml

> >

> >

> > i would remove any fluoride from toothpaste(i don't use toohpaste

> now)

>

> We have well water here, so I know she is not getting fluoride from

> the water she is in contact with and I only give her water that has

> been filtered and then processed through reverse osmosis, so what

she

> drinks is not flouridated, but I have never seen a toothpaste

without

> flouride. Where can you get it?

> >

> > or water and don't get any more vaccinations.

>

> I don't plan on getting her vacinnated anymore, but unfortunately,

> she has already been given just about everything under the sun

> already.

>

> Thanks for your help.

>

> Dawn Schaller

[Guest guest]

,

>

> lauricidin doesn't suit all.

> oreganol seems to be better.

Maybe her regression issues had more to do with the Lauricidan than

the enzymes? Everything I read said that both enzymes and Lauricidan

would reduce hyperness, inattention, etc., so I was not expecting

what I got. I am just giving her the oils and 1/4 capsule of Prime

Zime with each meal. We'll see how this goes for a while and from now

on, I will introduce supplements one at a time and see how she is for

a period of at least a week before I introduce anything else.

> splenda and rice are scd illegal................ don't know what to

> think about the soys you say she did well on the soy formula. but

> corn, potatoes rice grains sugar............ i think half the

> problem with soy is the semi processed version that is called soy

> flour or whatever used in bread mixes.

I guess I am going to have to really study the SCD again. I printed

out the legal/illegal list of foods and will try that... If she can't

have Splenda, rice and potatoes though, I am really going to have to

scratch to find something that she can/will eat, because she is one

of the pickiest eaters on earth. She chooses what she will and will

not eat based on looks and texture first and if it's a fruit or

vegetable and it is not cooked until it is almost mush, she won't eat

it. She will eat apple sauce, will drink just about any fruit drink,

and will eat fruit flavored candies and " Fruit Roll Ups " , but will

not, under any circumstances, eat any fruit in it's raw state. The

only exception is she will eat raw carrots as long as they are really

sweet and she can dip them in something. Since ranch dressing was her

favorite dipping sauce and that's not on her diet, she won't even eat

the raw carrots anymore.

> i think actually you are pushing it even sending her to school and

> she is simply functioning much better for her biological state than

> most. some kids can be extrodinarily functional for a very severe

> degree of biological degree of disruption. this is usually the

> result of several generations of asd traited parents.

Are you telling me you think we should be home schooling her? I

actually intended to home school her because of her behaviorial

issues and because she was so intelligent. I figured she would be

bored in school. However, after I quit my job to be home with her in

the spring before she was was to start kindergarden, I figured out

that she would not (or could not) do much of any " normal " school work

with me. I purchased probably well over $500 in educational software,

workbooks, interactive learning " toys " , flashcards, etc. over the

last 3-4 years and she " shuts down " when I try to get her to work on

them with me. She will do things for teachers and some others (never

family members though), so I decided that school was the only way we

could go. In the interactive part of her school day she is engaged

and participating, but when they are working on " centers " , where they

are told what to do and then expected to focus on the project and get

it done, she shuts down again. In order for her to complete any of

those projects, she needs someone next to her at all times,

redirecting her to her work. If the aide goes away, or is still next

to her, but helping someone else, she is almost totally unproductive

because she can't focus, (or on a worse day) gets frustrated because

she is not getting all of the aide's attention. She learns better by

interacting with others, doing things, and experiencing things

though, so I can see why center time is hard for her, it is all

supposed to be " independent undirected activity " on a specific task

that is not of her choosing... Unless we can tame her behaviors and

lack of focus soon, I don't know what we will have to do with her for

education next year. She will probably need an aide full time in her

current school, or a private tutor, but I cannot afford that

(personally don't know anyone who can...). I have considered

Montessori, but I don't know enough about it. There is a Montessori

school about 12 miles away, so it would be a challenge to get her

there and back every schoolday. It may be that all the self directed

time would be spent daydreaming and not being productive, but it's

hard to tell unless I were able to integrate her into that kind of an

environment before I made that huge a financial decision. What works

best for kids like my daughter? Two weeks ago, at the prompting of

the school, I started having a tutor come over 3-4 times a week for

between one and two hours each time to work with her on math and

reading and it seems to be very productive time so far, but it could

not be an alternative to normal schooling...

>

> so i would assume that things are quite severe and to get the

> requisite metabolic gain you are going to need an approach from all

> angles, 'bent' scd, enzymes minerals etc. just a disclaimer i

> really am quite against chelation.

Why are you against chelation? My brother, who might have been called

Aspergers by today's standards, has overcome a lot- ADD (without the

hyperactive part), several forms of dyslexia, late to speak, didn't

want to be cuddled as an infant, inability to read until 3rd grade,

serious problem with math, etc., now has two master's degrees, the

last in special education... I guess with the right interventions,

there is hope. When my brother was six, he had a 5 minute evaluation

by a Phd doctor of education at the University of Michigan. He did

not, and would not, read any of the test results that previous

testing revealed before his analysis. The Phd read a short story to

my brother and then had him try to repeat the story back to him in

sequential order. He could not do it, so the Phd announced my brother

was retarded. An IQ test, that was in the package sent to the Phd,

showed he had an IQ of 130, so his test results were totally

dismissed by the school district, thank goodness. The Phd wanted him

to be put in a classroom with Down's Syndrome kids. My brother has

known people who had undergone chelation back in the 80's and early

90's who had bad experiences with chelation that they claimed had

mixed the metals back up and gave them the bad effects of having the

metals back in their bloodstream and made them sicker. He has been

warning me about the prospect of chelation. However, my understanding

was that the " new " ways of doing oral chelation with DMSA and ALA was

safer because you were pulling out less volume of metals per

treatment and the body was better able to excrete them as compared to

the " old " way of doing chelation... Any comments on that?

> if theres any unwelcome mineral in the well water it should show in

> the hair test.

>

> zinc gluconate is ok but not brillant, zinc sulphate like a lot of

> inorganic minerals is not well absorbed and feeds gut flora. zinc

> oxide would have the same problem.

>

> no fenol seems to have beenfits being taken with phenolic food as

> well as being taken a while after eating. i do both depending. in

> fact there ia big advantge to keeping a child out of school to

> optimise supplements over the day.

>

> theres a neural pruning that occurs about age 7 which is something

> to think about. neural prunings are regressive events. they are a

> reorganisation of the brain with quite a loss of nueral tissue. i

> imagine that if there is any issue of a background virus in the

> brain or immune hyperness/vaccine distortion it must be a

> nightmare.

I have never heard about neural pruning. Is there somewhere I can

research that? Am I in for a bigger mess very shortly? What can I

start to do now to help her deal with it?

> the b vitmain doesn't look very balanced at all. 100 mg of b1 is

> ahuge amount. one of the benefits of scd emphasis is that it seems

> to free up the b vits, but if you were having good results with

> that b vit then it may be the high thiamine which would indicate

> metals, maybe lead issues but my feeling it it is way to

> high and balanced. most supplements i find i use a fraction of a

> capsule or tablet to the extent that supplement costs are not too

> high.water soluble b vits and things like vitmain c are best given

> in small doses, say three times a day which is another benefit of

> the child at home.

> but the 'bent' scd i do has really dropped the supplements i need

> back. another problem with b multis is i am not that happy with the

> cyano form of b-12 they use magnesium oxide is a laxative.she

> will do well on the magnesium tautrate i think.(cardiovascualr

> research)

My great grand father was a very well paid, well regarded dentist at

the turn of the century and he died young, probably around age 45, of

pernicious anemia, which I was told was a lack of vit b12. I don't

know just how developed the medical community was in 1918, or whether

there was any treatment for it at that time, but he had plenty of

money to afford medical care and he died of that very young... Could

there be an inherited tendency that passed on to us, that affects us

too, although not to that degree?

> digestion and scd and enzymes need looking at stools to get a sense

> of progress and problems. there is no perfect stool imo but you do

> get a sense of what is constructive after a while. i think you will

> really want good bile production to detox the liver which is

> generally. a greenish tinge of the stool(not mucus) somtimes going

> to dark if the bacteria are processing it.

What lab would you recommend for the stool analysis? Great Plains?

Also, which specific tests?

> immunocal may help since it does not appear she would tolerate the

> lacotse of plain whey. i can't remembr whether you said you were

> giving colostrum which may be similar to whey.

I have been giving her colostrum, but the bottle says it does not

contain casein...

I had digesion problems with milk products (diarrhea, malabsorption,

thin as a rail, etc.) until after I had my tonsils and adenoids

removed when I was 4 yrs old. I don't know what impact the surgery

should've had on that, but the only way it didn't affect me was if my

mom cooked the milk before I drank it. That looks like a lactose

problem rather than casein... After that I had no problems until I

was 19 when the lactose intolerance came back. I don't really know if

my daughter has a lactose intolerance problem or a problem with

casein. Could my apparent lactose intolerance be realted to her

having problems with casein?

> i really don't like toothpaste because of the other chemicals in

> it. fluoride does help prevent decay so once you drop it you

> need the other side wwhich is adequate mineralistion esp molybdenum

> (whey has heaps of molybdenum) and no sugar of course. don't bother

> with non sugar sweeteners they are just trouble.

Should I be giving her molybdenum? It will be a challenge to give her

supplements without some sweetener since she cannot swallow pills.

Could I use an " SCD legal " sweetener? Maybe honey?

Thanks for all the effort and response!

Dawn Schaller

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 2/13/04 9:50:07 AM, danasview@... writes:

<< My kids don't tolerate Lauricidin, even with enzymes.

>>

Mine doesn't either.

Nell

[Guest guest]

> Maybe her regression issues had more to do with the Lauricidan than

> the enzymes? Everything I read said that both enzymes and

Lauricidan

> would reduce hyperness, inattention, etc., so I was not expecting

> what I got.

My kids don't tolerate Lauricidin, even with enzymes.

Dana

[Guest guest]

Dana,

Ahhh, thanks.

Dawn Schaller

> > Maybe her regression issues had more to do with the Lauricidan

than

> > the enzymes? Everything I read said that both enzymes and

> Lauricidan

> > would reduce hyperness, inattention, etc., so I was not expecting

> > what I got.

>

>

> My kids don't tolerate Lauricidin, even with enzymes.

>

> Dana