Re: autistic boy *killed* while trying to *cure* him

[Guest guest]

I would like to say that I've had members of my church pray over

Allie during the last two years but we have never attempted to

restrain or wrap her in anything. Some of us put hands on her back,

but it was gently and I held her in my arms while we did so. It

seems sometimes that a story like this paints a very negative

picture of a what is typically a very peaceful, Spiritual experience

for everyone involved.

Debi

[Guest guest]

I would be curious to find out what the cause of death is.

Unfortunately this can give all churches a bad name. My oldest son

had rheumatoid arthritis when he was 3 years old. He was in constant

pain and could not walk. For months we tried pain killer after pain

killer. The specialist basically told us there is no cure and all we

can do is help him learn how to deal with the pain. For a period of

almost 2 months he had a blood test every 2-3 days (checking his

white blood cell count). There was different prayer lists in our

church that he was on. One day while in the service a guest speaker

was talking about his wife being healed of terminal cancer. I all of

a sudden felt that God was telling me now was the time. I got right

up, pulled an associate pastor aside and asked him to anoint him with

oil and pray. He did so and the pain went away immediately. The

next day I called his doctor and told her he was healed. She of

course was doubtful. She said to wait a week then if he still has no

pain she will test his blood again. I promised if he complained of

pain I will give him his medication but only then. We did the blood

test and got the results. His SED rate was perfect. She was

shocked. I called the pediatric rheumatologist to cancel his

appointment. The secretary was curious. I told her the story. She

said she has never heard of anyone being healed of RA.

I am not trying to validate this church because I know there are some

wackos out there but there is such a thing as healing and without

knowing the details of this situation, I really don't know if the

church is negligent or not. I do think it is sad though that their

focus was on demon possession rather than on healing. Churches need

to be educated on what autism is.

> got this from another list.

> Carolyn

>

> >

> > Autistic Boy Dies During Wis. Service

> >

> > 1 hour ago

> >

> > By KEVIN ORLAND, Associated Press Writer

> >

> > MILWAUKEE - An autistic 8-year-old boy died while being restrained

> > during a church prayer service held in an attempt to cure him, and

> > one man connected with the small storefront church was arrested,

> > police and a church official said Sunday.

> >

> > The boy's mother took him to the Faith Temple Church of the

> > Apostolic Faith for the prayer service Friday night. Several

church

> > members prayed over him for more than an hour until someone

noticed

> > he wasn't moving and called 911, said Bishop Hemphill Sr.

> >

> > Church members had wrapped the boy in sheets to keep him from

> > scratching himself and others, but the boy was allowed to sit " any

> > way that he feels comfortable, " Hemphill said.

> >

> > " All I know is we're not guilty of anything, " he said.

> >

> > Police would not identify the man who was arrested Friday, but

> > Hemphill said it was his brother, Ray Hemphill, another minister

at

> > the church. Police also did not release the boy's name, but

> > Hemphill identified him as Torrance Cantrell.

> >

> > Police would not say what the man could be charged with, only that

> > they were awaiting the results of an autopsy.

> >

> > " If (the boy) died, which I highly doubt, of some natural cause,

he

> > won't be charged with anything too serious, " said police Capt.

> > Haynes. She said she did not believe the boy had been struck

during

> > the service.

> >

> > The boy's mother, , started coming to the church

> > about three months ago after she met one of its members at a

> > doctor's office, Hemphill said.

> >

> > He said members of the church, made up of just six families,

prayed

> > for God to release the evil spirits that he said caused the boy's

> > illness. The church had been performing the prayer services for

the

> > boy three times a week for the past three weeks, Hemphill said.

> >

> > " The boy just had a problem in his mind, and what we were doing

was

> > asking God to fix it, " Hemphill said. " He chose to fix it by

taking

> > him back home to Him. "

> >

> > Hemphill said he had not talked to the boy's mother since Friday

but

> > added that other church members had been helping her with chores

and

> > errands while she has been grieving.

> >

> > A makeshift memorial with four candles and a couple of stuffed

> > animals sat on a window ledge outside the boy's home.

> >

> > The church is not connected to any larger denomination, Hemphill

> > said.

> >

> > " We believe that according to the word of God, a person could get

> > evil spiritedness, " he said. " Either God's going to have to

deliver,

> > or we're going to have to do whatever we can until things get

> > better. "

> >

> > The church's main window was boarded up Sunday, as were those of

> > several businesses that neighbor it in a run-down strip mall on

the

> > city's northwest corner.

> >

> >

> > Copyright 2003 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This

> > material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or

> > redistributed.

> >

> >

> >

> >

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> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

The entire mainstream understanding of demon posession is really

more offensive than what I understand about it. From my knowledge of

Scripture (and believe me, it's not that great) is the belief that

the earth and world were created perfect, without illness or death.

When the original sin from Adam and Eve occured, sickness and death

entered. So, when someone's body is sick or injured, saying that the

sick person has " an unclean spirit " is not necessarily stating that

a demon is posessing the body, but that the offending party--virus,

bacteria, immune response that damages the body, etc, is of unclean

origin. Essentially sickness is from evil, not that that particular

person, parents, etc caused it or had anything to do with it.

Answered prayer for healing could be as simple as an antibiotic

being discovered or beginning to work in the body, or as huge and a

spontaneous healing with no known reasoning.

I'm not trying to persuade or disuade anyone's opinions, just give

my understanding. Evil spirit beliefs (seemingly to me, anyway) have

been demonized (that is, the belief aspect), lol.

Debi

> I think the concern is the belief that these kids have demonic

possession.

> I am deeply troubled by this kind of attitude. I do believe that

these

> children have been injured by something such as vaccinations but

demonic

> possession is a bit too much in my opinion. Some person has even

ventured to

> say that God was punishing me and sending me a son like this

because of my

> past sins and the sins of my ancestors.

>

> I believe gentle prayer over the child is ok but really that is

between the

> child and the parents. I would personally feel uncomfortable with

a group of

> people around my praying around my son because he has autism.

Maybe if he

> had cancer. I don;t know. I don;t want to start anything with

this. Just my

> own very very humble feelings.

>

> Carolyn

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I do not believe that every illness happens because of the

individual's sin, but that illness in the world is the result of the

original sin, because before the forbidden fruit was eaten, there

was no death or illness (Gen 2:17). In addition, the book of Job

proves that there are those who are aflicted that have done nothing

wrong (Job 1:8). However, when Adam ate, death and disease entered

the world. Therefore, a virus, bacteria, immune response, any thing

which harms the body is the result of evil origin. Of course, I

could be wrong, I just want to explain that there are those of us

who feel that disease is from evil, *not* that the person who

harbors the illness is evil. There are those illnesses which are

allowed to bring glory to God, I believe that's why my daughter has

the biological issues associated with autism.

Of course, everyone is open to their own thoughts and beliefs, I

just wanna throw out there are those of us who consider ourselves

rational Christians who follow the Bible without condemning everyone

as satan!

Debi

> I would think it very possible that the kind of thinking exercised

there

> could stem from the belief which many churches have that you are

born in sin

> I donot believe this but can see how if you do then the link can

be made as

> all sin happens either through weakness or corruption, either

being too weak

> to reject temptations or corrupted/misled into wanting the

bad/wrong thing.

> Not knowing the faith in question we are limited as to what we

could

> know/find out about their particular beliefs, there are so many

different

> churches, each with their branch-offs which are again, different

churches -

> all with diverse beliefs.

>

[Guest guest]

Well put.

> > I would think it very possible that the kind of thinking

exercised

> there

> > could stem from the belief which many churches have that you are

> born in sin

> > I donot believe this but can see how if you do then the link can

> be made as

> > all sin happens either through weakness or corruption, either

> being too weak

> > to reject temptations or corrupted/misled into wanting the

> bad/wrong thing.

> > Not knowing the faith in question we are limited as to what we

> could

> > know/find out about their particular beliefs, there are so many

> different

> > churches, each with their branch-offs which are again, different

> churches -

> > all with diverse beliefs.

> >

[Guest guest]

Makes me think about all those times when we *think* a child might

be in danger and do nothing about it. You just never know.

Debi

> I read another article posted on another list that said a friend

of

> the mom witnessed on more than one occasion that he was hit during

> these " prayer meetings " . She was not there on this particular day

> but feels terrible that she opted to try to convince the mom to

leave

> the church instead of going to Child Protective Services. Also

this

> article said that some years back this same church was

investigated

> for child abuse.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

, I'm sorry, but I haven't a clue what you are talking about.

All I did was post one alternative thought about the idea of unclean

spirits after the story of the boy who was horribly killed. I wasn't

angry, feeling that anyone is against me, or that I was in any way

attacking you. I am not even aware as of typing this response of

what or any posts you have made. I would be happy to discuss it

further here or email, because I honestly haven't a clue what I have

said that has seemingly caused you to feel so defensive.

Debi

> Of course, everyone is open to their own thoughts and beliefs, I

> > just wanna throw out there are those of us who consider

ourselves

> > rational Christians who follow the Bible without condemning

> everyone

> > as satan!

> >

> > Debi

> >

> this is pathetic.........I'd like to know where I said that !

> That is a ridiculous, over zealous response from someone who has

just jumped

> on their first emotion and not bothered to think what the poster

really

> meant............I seem to see a bit too much of that happening

lately (and

> I don't mean to me).Maybe you could show some of that 'christian'

attitude

> and next time you read a post and think something negative, walk

around and

> do something else and think over if there was any other meaning

that could

> have been meant.

> By the way, you may consider yourself to be what you like but that

doesn't

> mean you are it.

> Seems to me you are either insecure in your faith if you feel the

need to

> jump to its defence or paranoid that everyone is against you if

you're

> jumping that quick and hard not even considering you may have got

it wrong.

> Funny, I thought humility was an attribute practised by christians.

>

> Julea )

> The first step towards success is taken when you refuse to be a

captive of

> the environment in which you first found yourself.

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Julea, not a problem. I was totally stating only an opinion, nothing

to accuse or in any other way call another person wrong. My remark

at the end was totally meant toward the media's seeming attempt, at

times, to paint Christians as silly and uneducated. I'm sorry if I

was unclear, sometimes it is difficult to know by words only the

underlying tone, the unfortunate downside of the net. I hope you

realize that I do not attempt to be any of the things you called me,

and I think it's great that you, me, and/or anyone else can

apologize when misunderstandings happen. It's way better than

feuding on a message board!

Debi

> In that case I must apologise, it appeared, as my mail was

included in your

> reply, that you were replying to the opinion which I had

voiced.That being

> the case the last sentence seemed very scathing and uncalled-for,

I

> initially ignored it and thought maybe you had just had a bad day

and had

> jumped a bit soon (something which does happen every so often due

to the

> nature of the list and the individual stresses people are under)

and it

> might just die down but not.

> Obviously I have misunderstood your mail because my own was

included in your

> reply - on other lists I am on this is only usually done when you

are

> replying to that particular mail, to keep the thread we usually

just cut and

> paste a piece as otherwise it is too much for people on digest-

only to cope

> with.

> I am sorry if my mail caused any upset to you or anyone else.

> Please accept my apologies.

>

> Julea )

> The first step towards success is taken when you refuse to be a

captive of

> the environment in which you first found yourself.

>

>

>

>

>