Re: OT: Literal thinking / a question

[Guest guest]

i'm not even sure if there is such a thing as literal thinking, its

just a lack of theories of mind to infill and twist the semantics.

paradoxically very abstract thinking requires literalism.

non literal thinkers are really emotional literal thinkers

> There were several talks on literal thinking, and how teachers and

> therapists need to understand how literal thinking works in order

to

> relate to their students. I was fascinated by the fact there were

so

> many sessions on this, and people needed to be taught about literal

> thinking. There were about 1000 attendees. To me, Literal Thinker

> Extraordinaire, thinking literally is vastly easier and more

> efficient than doing it in a more chaotic, emotional way. Mike and

I

> have had many loooooong talks about this.

>

> I just thought it was funny people were having to be taught this

> step by step. And most everyone was taking notes and writing stuff

> down.

>

> Here is my question. Do most people consider literal thinking a

> trait of autism that is part of their disability? I have never

> thought of literal thinking as a disability or a problem, or even

> strange. It was just a thinking style. I thought that non-autistic

> people were just as likely to be literal thinkers as people with

> autism spectrum conditions? Am I wrong? So if someone is recovered

> completely except for the fact that he is still a very literal

> thinker, is he still autistic, or Asperger's, or PDD? or is he no

> longer on spectrum, he just happens to be a literal thinker anyway?

>

> .

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 28/4/03 2:27:28 am, kjorn@... writes:

> Here is my question. Do most people consider literal thinking a

> trait of autism that is part of their disability? I have never

> thought of literal thinking as a disability or a problem, or even

> strange. It was just a thinking style. I thought that non-autistic

> people were just as likely to be literal thinkers as people with

> autism spectrum conditions? Am I wrong? So if someone is recovered

> completely except for the fact that he is still a very literal

> thinker, is he still autistic, or Asperger's, or PDD? or is he no

> longer on spectrum, he just happens to be a literal thinker anyway?

>

> .

>

>

If he's that close to not ASD, I'm not sure it matters too much. When I

first moved to England i couldn't understand sometimes when people were

teasing me. It just went over my head. And when i'd make jokes sometimes

they just didnt get it. It was weird. The English would go as far as say

that Americans had no irony. I'd say, are you kidding? So it's a language

thing, perhaps. If you have problems with language anyway, maybe it's just

another area of delay so to speak. Although you, for example, have no problem

with language.

My toe-walking formerly mute, squeaky, little boy who is certainly ASD has NO

theory of mind problem and tells jokes. So who can say?

marti

[Guest guest]

,

Your last few posts really have intrigued me and I suspect it will

take me awhile to really work through what I think about all this. I

am not autistic, but my 2-yr-old son is ASD, and now that I'm chin

deep in all these issues a lot about myself is making more sense. I

am an extreme literal thinker and have been driving people crazy

forever with it. I guess I don't consider it a disability; in fact,

it has really helped me professionally as I work in a semi-creative

field where we literal thinkers are in short supply. I guess I would

consider my disability the inability to think creatively, or to be

imaginative, as your other post discussed. I don't know that one

substitutes the other, but for me it seems that I'm lacking in

creativity and imagination BECAUSE I am such a literal thinker. I

just can't stretch myself in that direction.

I have always had so much admiration for creativity and imagination

and have spent a lot of my life appreciating others' strengths in

those areas. (Though the musician boyfriends drove my parents

nuts.) At times I am accused myself of being creative, but that is

really only because my step-by-step thinking process leads me to

logical solutions to problems that creative people may have

overlooked to begin with.

Just curious -- have you ever taken the Myers-Briggs test.

Not sure if this helped at all, but that's my two cents about myself.

> There were several talks on literal thinking, and how teachers and

> therapists need to understand how literal thinking works in order

to

> relate to their students. I was fascinated by the fact there were

so

> many sessions on this, and people needed to be taught about literal

> thinking. There were about 1000 attendees. To me, Literal Thinker

> Extraordinaire, thinking literally is vastly easier and more

> efficient than doing it in a more chaotic, emotional way. Mike and

I

> have had many loooooong talks about this.

>

> I just thought it was funny people were having to be taught this

> step by step. And most everyone was taking notes and writing stuff

> down.

>

> Here is my question. Do most people consider literal thinking a

> trait of autism that is part of their disability? I have never

> thought of literal thinking as a disability or a problem, or even

> strange. It was just a thinking style. I thought that non-autistic

> people were just as likely to be literal thinkers as people with

> autism spectrum conditions? Am I wrong? So if someone is recovered

> completely except for the fact that he is still a very literal

> thinker, is he still autistic, or Asperger's, or PDD? or is he no

> longer on spectrum, he just happens to be a literal thinker anyway?

>

> .

[Guest guest]

Here is how literal thinking can affect my son.

Now in these examples I don't think literal thinking is a problem

but i can see how others that don't understand it can have a

problem with a person who is a constant literal thinker.

Any writing assingment they give my son that says something like,

You are a stomach and you do not like the food you are being fed,

what would you say? Well, a stomach can not talk. So how can a

stomach say anything if it can not talk?

Teacher (in the past they get it now) doesn't understand why he can

not come up with any answer at all.

If you ask my son to tell you about the book he just read. He feels he

must read the whole book back to you so that you will get the full

understanding that he got. So a book report is difficult for him. He

wants to know exactly what type of answer the teacher is looking for.

When my son was was messing with a hammer, his father said to him, hey

that's not a toy! My son said I know, it's a hammer, a tool.

So I guess what I'm saying is literal thinkers (well my son anyway)

have such trouble if subtle clues that if others are not specific they

have a hard time understanding the true point.

I think it's great that so many were taking notes. I really think they

need to change their communication skills so that everyone can

understand.

I really struggle with what ppl say. I ask a lot of questions tho.

With out questions I would be really lost.

> There were several talks on literal thinking, and how teachers and

> therapists need to understand how literal thinking works in order to

> relate to their students. I was fascinated by the fact there were so

> many sessions on this, and people needed to be taught about literal

> thinking. There were about 1000 attendees. To me, Literal Thinker

> Extraordinaire, thinking literally is vastly easier and more

> efficient than doing it in a more chaotic, emotional way. Mike and I

> have had many loooooong talks about this.

>

> I just thought it was funny people were having to be taught this

> step by step. And most everyone was taking notes and writing stuff

> down.

>

> Here is my question. Do most people consider literal thinking a

> trait of autism that is part of their disability? I have never

> thought of literal thinking as a disability or a problem, or even

> strange. It was just a thinking style. I thought that non-autistic

> people were just as likely to be literal thinkers as people with

> autism spectrum conditions? Am I wrong? So if someone is recovered

> completely except for the fact that he is still a very literal

> thinker, is he still autistic, or Asperger's, or PDD? or is he no

> longer on spectrum, he just happens to be a literal thinker anyway?

>

> .

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 28/4/03 3:41:35 pm, kjorn@... writes:

>

> When I asked about this, he said that the author was not a

> character in the story so he didn't know how the author felt at all,

> but he has learned he needed to put something down for an answer.

> Since most of the sentences in that paragraph were really short, he

> figured the author was too tired at that point to write out long

> ones. [sounds like a reasonable, creative answer to me]

>

But , this was a stupid question. I've never in all my life been

asked such a stupid question on an English exam. I have a magna cum laude

from Harvard in English and American Literature and Language. I was a

Regent Fellow at U. of Cal/Irvine. I am married to a publisher. I've

written and edited books. I am totally qualified to say that the question

was not answerable. As an author I agree with your son, it's is very

tiring writing those long paragraphs.

This is no reflection on him. I certainly would have no interest in

changing him at this stage. He's fine, forget it.

marti

[Guest guest]

>>>I guess I don't consider it a disability;

I don't either...I find it preferable actually.

>>>I guess I would consider my disability the inability to think

creatively, or to be imaginative, as your other post discussed. I

don't know that one substitutes the other, but for me it seems that

I'm lacking in creativity and imagination BECAUSE I am such a

literal thinker.

These are not necessarily related. My son is a very literal thinker,

yet is wildly imaginative and creative. Sometimes other kids don't

want to play with him because they cannot keep up with his

creativity. Other times, kids want to play with him because he

thinks up the best games, or has great ideas for small group

activities and projects.

Even science and computer programming are vastly creative fields.

You have to figure out a wealth of unique ways to approach and solve

a problem, design experiments, and locate connections.

>>>At times I am accused myself of being creative, but that is

> really only because my step-by-step thinking process leads me to

> logical solutions to problems that creative people may have

> overlooked to begin with.

You are just being creative in a different way. It is still being

creative.

>>> Just curious -- have you ever taken the Myers-Briggs test.

I have taken it 3 times over a 7 year period. The score was always

identical, LOL. Waaaaaaay over in one particular quadrant of the

scoring field. Want to guess which one? LOL.

Note: the Myers-Briggs test is a personality type indicator that

helps you find out about your thinking style. Besides for self-

awarness, it is used in schools to help teachers learn about how

their students might best learn, for business in learning how an

employee might work best, marriage counseling, etc.

One of the best pieces of information I got from the Myers-Briggs

was finding out the difference in Introvert and Extrovert. An

Extrovert gets energy from being around people. An Introvert loses

energy from being around people. Both styles can do the same things

but how does it affect their energy levels. So both can do a public

speaking talk well, but an Introvert feels drained by this and wants

to be alone and unwind to get re-energized whereas an Extrovert is

energized by the experience and is ready to go out to eat in a

crowded restaurant afterwards. 3/4 of the population are Extroverts,

and about 1/4 Introverts.

.

[Guest guest]

>>>> Here is how literal thinking can affect my son.

This is exactly what we are dealing with Older Son. His health is

fine, the odd behaviors are resolved, etc. but he will be a very

literal person to the day he dies! LOL. We think it is pretty cool,

actually, but since his parents tend to be this way, we would.

This gets to the core issue of how much 'recovery' is enough? How

much of some characteristics will parents/therapists find

acceptable? I would think he is just a typical, unique individual

now...but someone else may think, " Oh, he is still autistic (or

Asperger's/PDD). "

My son was recently selected from the entire 5th grade class to be a

school representative in a community art show because of his gifted

creative talents/thinking.

However, other teachers in public school are often not as impressed

and my son has problems getting his work done simply because of the

way questions are written, instructions are expressed, lectures are

worded, etc. That is what we are dealing with A LOT lately. Some

teachers think he is being a smart aleck or just not wanting to work.

Example: How did the author feel when the children entered the

haunted house?

answers: Tired.

Teacher marks it wrong and docks his grade heavily.

When I asked about this, he said that the author was not a

character in the story so he didn't know how the author felt at all,

but he has learned he needed to put something down for an answer.

Since most of the sentences in that paragraph were really short, he

figured the author was too tired at that point to write out long

ones. [sounds like a reasonable, creative answer to me]

Yes, I was really glad to see lots of people taking notes as well.

One of the key abilities in being a good educator (or a good

scientists) is that if you want good answers you have to know how to

write, or come up, with good questions.

.

[Guest guest]

> >>>> Here is how literal thinking can affect my son.

>

> This is exactly what we are dealing with Older Son. His health is

> fine, the odd behaviors are resolved, etc. but he will be a very

> literal person to the day he dies! LOL. We think it is pretty cool,

> actually, but since his parents tend to be this way, we would.

>

> This gets to the core issue of how much 'recovery' is enough? How

> much of some characteristics will parents/therapists find

> acceptable? I would think he is just a typical, unique individual

> now...but someone else may think, " Oh, he is still autistic (or

> Asperger's/PDD). "

When I think 'recovery' for my son. I think, he no longer has urinary

problems or BM problems. He no longer has dark rings under his eyes

and does not have constant panic attacks. He is able to sleep threw

the night and is able to talk about issues other then his obsession.

He, like your son, is unique and NO ONE should try to change that!

That is his beauty. He still struggle a bit with selfesteem but

most going into puberty do. Dont they?

> My son was recently selected from the entire 5th grade class to be a

> school representative in a community art show because of his gifted

> creative talents/thinking.

Congratulations! My son is also in 5th. My sons talents are more in

math and science. He was kept indoors for recess recently because he

had to help all the other students who failed the physics exam. (I

want to brag hehe he got 100% on the test) He is creative in that he

has invented some really cool things.

> However, other teachers in public school are often not as impressed

> and my son has problems getting his work done simply because of the

> way questions are written, instructions are expressed, lectures are

> worded, etc. That is what we are dealing with A LOT lately. Some

> teachers think he is being a smart aleck or just not wanting to

work.

My sons teachers were frustrated with him until I explained to them

how he read certain things. When they got that they were able to know

what questions he would struggle with and how to rephrase it for him.

His writing skills have improved in a huge way.

> Example: How did the author feel when the children entered the

> haunted house?

>

> answers: Tired.

>

> Teacher marks it wrong and docks his grade heavily.

>

> When I asked about this, he said that the author was not a

> character in the story so he didn't know how the author felt at all,

> but he has learned he needed to put something down for an answer.

> Since most of the sentences in that paragraph were really short, he

> figured the author was too tired at that point to write out long

> ones. [sounds like a reasonable, creative answer to me]

Hey I think that's a great answer! Good for him.

> Yes, I was really glad to see lots of people taking notes as well.

>

> One of the key abilities in being a good educator (or a good

> scientists) is that if you want good answers you have to know how to

> write, or come up, with good questions.

Now how long will it take for the education department to recover?

[Guest guest]

Aaahhh!!! If my UNIVERSITY students would have come up with an

answer of " tired " based on an analysis of the author's WRITING

STYLE... Well, I'd have to fall to my knees with gratitude!!!

(Then, of course, I'd silently congratulate myself for enticing such

a thoughtful reading of the passage. HA.)

> >>>> Here is how literal thinking can affect my son.

>

> This is exactly what we are dealing with Older Son. His health is

> fine, the odd behaviors are resolved, etc. but he will be a very

> literal person to the day he dies! LOL. We think it is pretty cool,

> actually, but since his parents tend to be this way, we would.

>

> This gets to the core issue of how much 'recovery' is enough? How

> much of some characteristics will parents/therapists find

> acceptable? I would think he is just a typical, unique individual

> now...but someone else may think, " Oh, he is still autistic (or

> Asperger's/PDD). "

>

> My son was recently selected from the entire 5th grade class to be

a

> school representative in a community art show because of his gifted

> creative talents/thinking.

>

> However, other teachers in public school are often not as impressed

> and my son has problems getting his work done simply because of the

> way questions are written, instructions are expressed, lectures are

> worded, etc. That is what we are dealing with A LOT lately. Some

> teachers think he is being a smart aleck or just not wanting to

work.

>

> Example: How did the author feel when the children entered the

> haunted house?

>

> answers: Tired.

>

> Teacher marks it wrong and docks his grade heavily.

>

> When I asked about this, he said that the author was not a

> character in the story so he didn't know how the author felt at

all,

> but he has learned he needed to put something down for an answer.

> Since most of the sentences in that paragraph were really short, he

> figured the author was too tired at that point to write out long

> ones. [sounds like a reasonable, creative answer to me]

>

> Yes, I was really glad to see lots of people taking notes as well.

>

> One of the key abilities in being a good educator (or a good

> scientists) is that if you want good answers you have to know how

to

> write, or come up, with good questions.

>

> .

[Guest guest]

Myself being such a NONLITERAL thinker, I'm sure I could use some tips on

how to become one! Emotions rule every aspect of my life including my

thought process. Think this way of thinking could be learned?

[Guest guest]

i don't think emotion per se is non literal thinking, i am very

emotional , its just the emotions are discordant so given they don't

function in a palatable manner i have to look at other things.

getting some street smarts about life and people and observation over

very long periods collecting to give effective predicitve

understanding is i think something that works.

the tv/music/pap school generation coming through these boards now

seems unbelievably ignorant and intolerant and only thinking of the

validity of thier feelings

despite being mothers and all that quite immature in thinking and a

general approach to things

thats one observation. has it ever been different, i don't think

these lows have been hit before, jsut an abyss of packaged lives and

bought products.

i think also the defunct general nutriton and lead/other metals

toxicty

is perhaps a more primary cause.

original thinking shows the deficency and people don't like it.

> Myself being such a NONLITERAL thinker, I'm sure I could use some

tips on

> how to become one! Emotions rule every aspect of my life including

my

> thought process. Think this way of thinking could be learned?