Guest guest Posted July 10, 2003 Report Share Posted July 10, 2003 You couldn;t be more wrong................... > . You (and other listmates) make it quite clear that anyone who would > support Kirkman, in any way, is an idiot and a fool for believing any claims > they would make, is pretty much just a horrible human being, is doing a HUGE > disservice to all of mankind and all of the autism community, and, > on-top-of-it-all, is completely lacking in any moral judgement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 10, 2003 Report Share Posted July 10, 2003 Perhaps this e-mail will never reach you, as you are leaving this group.Parenting and the resulting decisions are the most personal things that can happen. It is very easy to become defensive. For someone like myself, who has already formed an opinion ( I use Houston enzymes and Kirkman cocoa chips and order Vance's dairy free through them) I don't feel defensive. I'm a parent, I do what I need to. This group gives wonderful info. and support. If there is nothing useful for you from this group, then by all means continue your research and support elsewhere, may God speed your way to success. However, if you change your mind, and while lurking find you need a specific answer, you are more than welcome to e-mail me privately to see if I know anything of relevance. Also I might mention, I rarely pay attention to " who " the posts are from, unless I feel I need to say a prayer for them, so the potential for you to post again ( if you change your mind), odds are most of us won't remember these posts. Good luck with helping your child. D. I think it is just fabulous that you have such a passion for the work you are doing. However, I just don't happen to share your particular passion. I, too, have a great many passions surrounding my son and his recovery from " autism " , as is probably the case with every parent who works as hard as we all do in bringing healing to our children. We wouldn't devote our lives to reading/researching/networking/treating if we didn't feel such passion. We do use many Kirkman products very successfully for our son and will continue to do so since these products have been so helpful to him. Sadly though, because of this, this list will NEVER offer a supportive environment for me. You (and other listmates) make it quite clear that anyone who would support Kirkman, in any way, is an idiot and a fool for believing any claims they would make, is pretty much just a horrible human being, is doing a HUGE disservice to all of mankind and all of the autism community, and, on-top-of-it-all, is completely lacking in any moral judgement. This, to me, is far from a supportive environment, and truly detracts from what the purpose of this list SHOULD be - simply to provide information on the usage of enzymes for autistic persons. Maybe it would be better to start a separate group for all of the necessary venting/bashing/re-hashing discussions, and keep the " enzymesandAutism " group just that. Or maybe your true intent when you began this group was, indeed, to utilize it as your pulpit . . . Regretfully, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 10, 2003 Report Share Posted July 10, 2003 I have been a member of this group for a couple of months now. I have to say that before I was lead to this group, I felt like I was feeling my way around in the dark. My son is much better since reading and learning from the experienced parents on this list. The wealth of information has been invaluable for my son. He is much better now. I had used Kirkman's enzymes and saw no changes. I still do use Kirkman's yeast aid and TMG. This group has never made me feel like a fool, nor have they ever gave me the feeling that they were unsupportive. Just the opposite is the feeling I got from this group. Very much support and an eagerness to help me help my child is what I have gotten from this group. I do not post much now, but I just had to reply to this person's post. I kind of think is right in her last post. There has to be a catch to this person's enormous hostility here. ----- Original Message ----- We do use many Kirkman products very successfully for our son and will continue to do so since these products have been so helpful to him. Sadly though, because of this, this list will NEVER offer a supportive environment for me. You (and other listmates) make it quite clear that anyone who would support Kirkman, in any way, is an idiot and a fool for believing any claims they would make, is pretty much just a horrible human being, is doing a HUGE disservice to all of mankind and all of the autism community, and, on-top-of-it-all, is completely lacking in any moral judgement. This, to me, is far from a supportive environment, and truly detracts from what the purpose of this list SHOULD be - simply to provide information on the usage of enzymes for autistic persons. Regretfully, Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 10, 2003 Report Share Posted July 10, 2003 I am new to this group, and am (so far) primarily lurking, but I have to admit that the first post from (?) on this thread rather surprised me, it seemed more... emphatic... than seemed warranted by the alleged 'offense'. I admired 's reply, which seemed exceptionally mild and supportive; I've certainly seen much more passionate replies to milder 'slaps' from moderators on other lists. 's reply was more passionate but certainly in no way personally attacked anyone who chose to make use of Kirkman's products. It was a statement of strongly held *personal* opinion, yes, but I don't see how holding a strong opinion is equivalent to calling people who don't hold that opinion idiots, fools, horrible human beings or morally deficient. The wonderful thing about being part of a large group of people is that we are able benefit from hearing about a wide variety of experience and opinion, and can choose for ourselves what to take up for ourselves and what to leave behind. A group of identical units marching in lockstep has its uses, I suppose, but that is mostly the case in armies... when we wish to learn, diversity is most useful, even when some of the information comes in forms we don't particularly care for. > The beginning of thought is in disagreement -- not only with others > but also with ourselves. > > ~ Hoffer > <http://www.cyber-nation.com/victory/quotations/authors/quotes_hoffer_eric.html>\ ~ > Ellie > D. > > > I think it is just fabulous that you have such a passion for the work you > are doing. However, I just don't happen to share your particular passion. > I, too, have a great many passions surrounding my son and his recovery from > " autism " , as is probably the case with every parent who works as hard as we > all do in bringing healing to our children. We wouldn't devote our lives to > reading/researching/networking/treating if we didn't feel such passion. > > We do use many Kirkman products very successfully for our son and will > continue to do so since these products have been so helpful to him. Sadly > though, because of this, this list will NEVER offer a supportive environment > for me. You (and other listmates) make it quite clear that anyone who would > support Kirkman, in any way, is an idiot and a fool for believing any claims > they would make, is pretty much just a horrible human being, is doing a HUGE > disservice to all of mankind and all of the autism community, and, > on-top-of-it-all, is completely lacking in any moral judgement. This, to > me, is far from a supportive environment, and truly detracts from what the > purpose of this list SHOULD be - simply to provide information on the usage > of enzymes for autistic persons. Maybe it would be better to start a > separate group for all of the necessary venting/bashing/re-hashing > discussions, and keep the " enzymesandAutism " group just that. Or maybe your > true intent when you began this group was, indeed, to utilize it as your > pulpit . . . > > Regretfully, > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 10, 2003 Report Share Posted July 10, 2003 I also want to say that I have had nothing but support and wonderful ideas from this group. As far as the Kirkman's thing goes, I have never felt defensive about the products I have used. However, I appreciate the information about the business practices of Kirkman's and the DAN doctors. When my son was diagnosed more than 7 years ago, I read articles that stated that Dr. Rimland " singlehandedly " debunked the Bettelheim theory of autism, which had caused so much damage to so many families. Because of this, Dr. Rimland was considered something close to godlike to many in the autism community. One need only read Maurice's book " Let Me Hear Your Voice " to see the influence he had on parents of kids my son's age. But also in that book you can read how the opponents of behaviorally- based methods tried to discredit the work of Lovaas and others that showed that kids with autism could learn with their methods. It saddens me but doesn't surprise me that the same kinds of tactics are still being used to protect turf. And I think it is really important that this information is out there for people to read, and absorb or discard as they choose. No one knows what causes autism spectrum disorders, and though many have found the path to recovery, for now each child, each family must chart their own path. Anyone who tells you that you must follow their path and their path alone really doesn't recognize how truly unique each and every person with autism is. I have found on this list that each person's choices and decisions (and mistakes) are respected, appreciated and supported. As parents we are in this together, and we can all learn from each other. Companies that are profits oriented, whether they be supplement companies or pharmaceutical companies, for the most part have a completely different mindset than we parents. And it is good to remind ourselves of that. Thanks , , and everyone else who I have learned so much from. Lynne Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 10, 2003 Report Share Posted July 10, 2003 I requested a couple of weeks ago for to email me privately. I asked her about Kirkman vs Houston because I wanted to know more without created a disturbance. The response I got from her was very fair, throroughly explained, and very kind. I, too, use some Kirkman's supplements. I am not ashamed to state it and don't think I would get bashed by stating. If someone doesn't like one brand as compared to another, I personally like to hear why, so long as it's rooted in logic and biological reasoning. All the other soap opera stuff I don't care for. I'd be happy to share with you what products I have found successful if you are interested, but I'm still learning on the enzyme issue. Debi > > We do use many Kirkman products very successfully for our son and will > continue to do so since these products have been so helpful to him. Sadly > though, because of this, this list will NEVER offer a supportive environment > for me. You (and other listmates) make it quite clear that anyone who would > support Kirkman, in any way, is an idiot and a fool for believing any claims > they would make, is pretty much just a horrible human being, is doing a HUGE > disservice to all of mankind and all of the autism community, and, > on-top-of-it-all, is completely lacking in any moral judgement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 12, 2003 Report Share Posted July 12, 2003 Wow. Perhaps you should slow down and read things a bit more thoroughly. It is obvious you know nothing about or what this list is about to print such a letter. I am disgusted with Kirkman's, but I do still use what I feel helps my daughter...and I am one of those parents who received harassing letters. Just because you have not experienced what other have does not make their knowledge untruths. --- In , " Tim & Owczarzak " <owczarzak@c...> wrote: > I think it is just fabulous that you have such a passion for the work you > are doing. However, I just don't happen to share your particular passion. > I, too, have a great many passions surrounding my son and his recovery from > " autism " , as is probably the case with every parent who works as hard as we > all do in bringing healing to our children. We wouldn't devote our lives to > reading/researching/networking/treating if we didn't feel such passion. > > We do use many Kirkman products very successfully for our son and will > continue to do so since these products have been so helpful to him. Sadly > though, because of this, this list will NEVER offer a supportive environment > for me. You (and other listmates) make it quite clear that anyone who would > support Kirkman, in any way, is an idiot and a fool for believing any claims > they would make, is pretty much just a horrible human being, is doing a HUGE > disservice to all of mankind and all of the autism community, and, > on-top-of-it-all, is completely lacking in any moral judgement. This, to > me, is far from a supportive environment, and truly detracts from what the > purpose of this list SHOULD be - simply to provide information on the usage > of enzymes for autistic persons. Maybe it would be better to start a > separate group for all of the necessary venting/bashing/re-hashing > discussions, and keep the " enzymesandAutism " group just that. Or maybe your > true intent when you began this group was, indeed, to utilize it as your > pulpit . . . > > Regretfully, > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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