enzymes and aggression

April 9, 2003

my four year old son is autistic and very likely has celiac disease.

(strong family history). I started him on enzymes four or so months

ago and fabulous things happened. He began socializing, talking in

longer sentences, understanding humor and laughing appropriately,

gross motor gains, sleeping through the night.

BUT, he has become extremely aggressive at school. (He was never

aggressive before) He pinches, hits other children to the point where

I have been called in for conferences, etc. He also began to tantrum

with transitions. I finally stopped the enzymes the day he pushed a

child over in his chair entirely unprovoked. He is gf/cf and the

enzymes he was taking were DPP1V, Allzyme (protease, amylase, lipase,

cellulase). He also took betaine HCL with every meal and gets

secretin shots.

I don't want to lose the incredible gains he got with enzymes. Does

anyone know if a different combination might help with the aggression

side effect????

April 9, 2003

That is excellent about the improvements!!!

But the other stuff needs work, eh?!

First, is your son ever aggressive at home too? or just at school?

do you think he might be getting too much sensory input at school

and just can't deal with it? If he has perked up so much at home,

then he might be very overwhelmed at school, and it is typical for

pre-schoolers to act out when overwhelmed. My son was not very

aggressive and never bothered other children, but when he went to

public school, it was just too much with all the regulation and long

days. He acted out, pushed furniture a few times, and needed to be

taken out of the class until the teacher figured out how to give

him 'down time' while in the class and throughout the day. She was

very experienced and did this all on her own. She explained it later

and said it wasn't any problem for her and she wanted my son in her

class...but he just seemed to need many more breaks by himself than

the other children. (I think she was hoping I wouldn't see it as a

punishment)

He might need some instruction on how he should behave appropriately

around other children.

The other thing I am thinking about is do you think that this may be

caused by the secretin? Secretin affects some kids very badly.

Are you giving any other supplements? Like high B vitamins for

example? Those might be discontinued now. Very common not to need

that with enzymes.

My other standard suggestion would be magnesium or epsom salts. Very

common to be deficient in magnesium. Also, if you are GFCF you loose

prime sources of magnesium in dairy and whole grains.

One more...is he getting any snacks at school? Our school just can't

seem to shovel enough treats filled with sugar, artificial

colorings/flavorings and other junk into the kids. It certainly

wasn't like that when I went to school. He might be very sensitive

to the artificial stuff and that is setting him off. Here is some

more info on this.

www.enzymestuff.com/magnesium.htm

www.enzymestuff.com/epsomsalts.htm

www.enzymestuff.com/dietsfg.htm

.

April 10, 2003

Thank you for responding to my message. I have been suspecting the

secretin because we have been administering it differently lately,

through injection as opposed to infusion. Also, thanks for the

insight about the school situation. I think you're right about

sensory overload. I hadn't thought about it. I appreciate it.

> That is excellent about the improvements!!!

>

> But the other stuff needs work, eh?!

>

> First, is your son ever aggressive at home too? or just at school?

> do you think he might be getting too much sensory input at school

> and just can't deal with it? If he has perked up so much at home,

> then he might be very overwhelmed at school, and it is typical for

> pre-schoolers to act out when overwhelmed. My son was not very

> aggressive and never bothered other children, but when he went to

> public school, it was just too much with all the regulation and

long

> days. He acted out, pushed furniture a few times, and needed to be

> taken out of the class until the teacher figured out how to give

> him 'down time' while in the class and throughout the day. She was

> very experienced and did this all on her own. She explained it

later

> and said it wasn't any problem for her and she wanted my son in her

> class...but he just seemed to need many more breaks by himself than

> the other children. (I think she was hoping I wouldn't see it as a

> punishment)

>

> He might need some instruction on how he should behave

appropriately

> around other children.

>

> The other thing I am thinking about is do you think that this may

be

> caused by the secretin? Secretin affects some kids very badly.

>

> Are you giving any other supplements? Like high B vitamins for

> example? Those might be discontinued now. Very common not to need

> that with enzymes.

>

> My other standard suggestion would be magnesium or epsom salts.

Very

> common to be deficient in magnesium. Also, if you are GFCF you

loose

> prime sources of magnesium in dairy and whole grains.

>

> One more...is he getting any snacks at school? Our school just

can't

> seem to shovel enough treats filled with sugar, artificial

> colorings/flavorings and other junk into the kids. It certainly

> wasn't like that when I went to school. He might be very sensitive

> to the artificial stuff and that is setting him off. Here is some

> more info on this.

>

> www.enzymestuff.com/magnesium.htm

> www.enzymestuff.com/epsomsalts.htm

> www.enzymestuff.com/dietsfg.htm

>

> .

April 11, 2003

Yeast flare ups tend to make ph more aggressive. GSE and Epsom salt baths

and Epsom salt lotion work for us.

enzymes and aggression

my four year old son is autistic and very likely has celiac disease.

(strong family history). I started him on enzymes four or so months

ago and fabulous things happened. He began socializing, talking in

longer sentences, understanding humor and laughing appropriately,

gross motor gains, sleeping through the night.

BUT, he has become extremely aggressive at school. (He was never

aggressive before) He pinches, hits other children to the point where

I have been called in for conferences, etc. He also began to tantrum

with transitions. I finally stopped the enzymes the day he pushed a

child over in his chair entirely unprovoked. He is gf/cf and the

enzymes he was taking were DPP1V, Allzyme (protease, amylase, lipase,

cellulase). He also took betaine HCL with every meal and gets

secretin shots.

I don't want to lose the incredible gains he got with enzymes. Does

anyone know if a different combination might help with the aggression

side effect????

April 12, 2003

In a message dated 12/04/2003 14:24:17 GMT Daylight Time,

qstrange@... writes:

> You see changes and miracles you want to see

> because you are expecting these.

>

I disgree and I don;t consider it a change unless somebody other than me can

see it too. Glad your son is doing well:)

Mandi in UK who loves the effects of enzymes and minerals!

April 12, 2003

Look I am the father of an autistic child and refuse to give him secretin,

enzymes, magnesium or anything else except some vitamin supplements

occassionally and fresh foods.

I feel terribly sorry for many of you trying to 'cure' autism with the magic

of charlatons who write all sorts of scurilous thesis on the absence of this

mineral and that and allude to all sorts of pseudo cures and develoopmental

discoveries on autism.

Sure we all care and are all suffering as a result. But for gods sake don't

you realise that your anxiety is in itself the worst input to the childs

already disturbed system? he or she can detect and sense the extreme anxiety

and tensions you carry as a result of your worry for them.

The spectrum is so wide that the panic to get to the bottom of it ends up

like a chase to catch the rainbow. its there but becomes more and more

elusive even though you do appear to be getting closer.

Our son is now full time at a 'normal' school which has an integration

programme. he used to attend the 'best' special school in our city but we

found the change from 2 days at normal school too much for him to return to

special school where he began to play up.

His peers at 'normal' school are a better influence and the teahcer and aid

are trained. he's learned to hum the national anthem after the first few

lines in the inro. He loves assembly and does most things the others do

(monkey see monkey do) and within his limits absorbs and analyses these

events in his life.

Today he wrote Pizza as we spoke of the idea of taking him for one. His

specialist teachers and the psychologists told us in no uncertain terms he

would not do this and it was not important. We persevered without the fuss.

Keep away from your manufactured products to a certain degree. he does eat

KFC and Maccas occaccionally. he is motivated by those vsists and responds.

Not a great motivator but it is controlled. It has done him no harm. Balance

is the key.

Don't go enzyming and mineralising for chrriskes. Try all of htis in

moderation and remember they all grow and change whether or not you give

them these magical potions. You see changes and miracles you want to see

because you are expecting these.

Cheers

Rama Krishnan

>From: " jornmatt " <kjorn@...>

>Reply-

>

>Subject: Re: enzymes and aggression

>Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 02:06:15 -0000

>

>That is excellent about the improvements!!!

>

>But the other stuff needs work, eh?!

>

>First, is your son ever aggressive at home too? or just at school?

>do you think he might be getting too much sensory input at school

>and just can't deal with it? If he has perked up so much at home,

>then he might be very overwhelmed at school, and it is typical for

>pre-schoolers to act out when overwhelmed. My son was not very

>aggressive and never bothered other children, but when he went to

>public school, it was just too much with all the regulation and long

>days. He acted out, pushed furniture a few times, and needed to be

>taken out of the class until the teacher figured out how to give

>him 'down time' while in the class and throughout the day. She was

>very experienced and did this all on her own. She explained it later

>and said it wasn't any problem for her and she wanted my son in her

>class...but he just seemed to need many more breaks by himself than

>the other children. (I think she was hoping I wouldn't see it as a

>punishment)

>

>He might need some instruction on how he should behave appropriately

>around other children.

>

>The other thing I am thinking about is do you think that this may be

>caused by the secretin? Secretin affects some kids very badly.

>

>Are you giving any other supplements? Like high B vitamins for

>example? Those might be discontinued now. Very common not to need

>that with enzymes.

>

>My other standard suggestion would be magnesium or epsom salts. Very

>common to be deficient in magnesium. Also, if you are GFCF you loose

>prime sources of magnesium in dairy and whole grains.

>

>One more...is he getting any snacks at school? Our school just can't

>seem to shovel enough treats filled with sugar, artificial

>colorings/flavorings and other junk into the kids. It certainly

>wasn't like that when I went to school. He might be very sensitive

>to the artificial stuff and that is setting him off. Here is some

>more info on this.

>

>www.enzymestuff.com/magnesium.htm

>www.enzymestuff.com/epsomsalts.htm

>www.enzymestuff.com/dietsfg.htm

>

>.

>

_________________________________________________________________

Hotmail now available on Australian mobile phones. Go to

http://ninemsn.com.au/mobilecentral/hotmail_mobile.asp

April 12, 2003

what vitamin supplements are you giving?

geenrally when people sort of fly at something 'enzymes and

mineralising' its saying they know they have to do work here but

don't want to think about it

perhaps you might like to talk about your child a bit more for more

insight. are there any digestive issues or anything that might be

indicative of phenol processing problems or intestinal yeast.

> Look I am the father of an autistic child and refuse to give him

secretin,

> enzymes, magnesium or anything else except some vitamin supplements

> occassionally and fresh foods.

>

> I feel terribly sorry for many of you trying to 'cure' autism with

the magic

> of charlatons who write all sorts of scurilous thesis on the

absence of this

> mineral and that and allude to all sorts of pseudo cures and

develoopmental

> discoveries on autism.

>

> Sure we all care and are all suffering as a result. But for gods

sake don't

> you realise that your anxiety is in itself the worst input to the

childs

> already disturbed system? he or she can detect and sense the

extreme anxiety

> and tensions you carry as a result of your worry for them.

>

> The spectrum is so wide that the panic to get to the bottom of it

ends up

> like a chase to catch the rainbow. its there but becomes more and

more

> elusive even though you do appear to be getting closer.

>

> Our son is now full time at a 'normal' school which has an

integration

> programme. he used to attend the 'best' special school in our city

but we

> found the change from 2 days at normal school too much for him to

return to

> special school where he began to play up.

>

> His peers at 'normal' school are a better influence and the teahcer

and aid

> are trained. he's learned to hum the national anthem after the

first few

> lines in the inro. He loves assembly and does most things the

others do

> (monkey see monkey do) and within his limits absorbs and analyses

these

> events in his life.

>

> Today he wrote Pizza as we spoke of the idea of taking him for one.

His

> specialist teachers and the psychologists told us in no uncertain

terms he

> would not do this and it was not important. We persevered without

the fuss.

>

> Keep away from your manufactured products to a certain degree. he

does eat

> KFC and Maccas occaccionally. he is motivated by those vsists and

responds.

> Not a great motivator but it is controlled. It has done him no

harm. Balance

> is the key.

>

> Don't go enzyming and mineralising for chrriskes. Try all of htis

in

> moderation and remember they all grow and change whether or not you

give

> them these magical potions. You see changes and miracles you want

to see

> because you are expecting these.

>

> Cheers

>

> Rama Krishnan

>

> >From: " jornmatt " <kjorn@t...>

> >Reply-

> >

> >Subject: Re: enzymes and aggression

> >Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 02:06:15 -0000

> >

> >That is excellent about the improvements!!!

> >

> >But the other stuff needs work, eh?!

> >

> >First, is your son ever aggressive at home too? or just at school?

> >do you think he might be getting too much sensory input at school

> >and just can't deal with it? If he has perked up so much at home,

> >then he might be very overwhelmed at school, and it is typical for

> >pre-schoolers to act out when overwhelmed. My son was not very

> >aggressive and never bothered other children, but when he went to

> >public school, it was just too much with all the regulation and

long

> >days. He acted out, pushed furniture a few times, and needed to be

> >taken out of the class until the teacher figured out how to give

> >him 'down time' while in the class and throughout the day. She was

> >very experienced and did this all on her own. She explained it

later

> >and said it wasn't any problem for her and she wanted my son in her

> >class...but he just seemed to need many more breaks by himself than

> >the other children. (I think she was hoping I wouldn't see it as a

> >punishment)

> >

> >He might need some instruction on how he should behave

appropriately

> >around other children.

> >

> >The other thing I am thinking about is do you think that this may

be

> >caused by the secretin? Secretin affects some kids very badly.

> >

> >Are you giving any other supplements? Like high B vitamins for

> >example? Those might be discontinued now. Very common not to need

> >that with enzymes.

> >

> >My other standard suggestion would be magnesium or epsom salts.

Very

> >common to be deficient in magnesium. Also, if you are GFCF you

loose

> >prime sources of magnesium in dairy and whole grains.

> >

> >One more...is he getting any snacks at school? Our school just

can't

> >seem to shovel enough treats filled with sugar, artificial

> >colorings/flavorings and other junk into the kids. It certainly

> >wasn't like that when I went to school. He might be very sensitive

> >to the artificial stuff and that is setting him off. Here is some

> >more info on this.

> >

> >www.enzymestuff.com/magnesium.htm

> >www.enzymestuff.com/epsomsalts.htm

> >www.enzymestuff.com/dietsfg.htm

> >

> >.

> >

>

> _________________________________________________________________

> Hotmail now available on Australian mobile phones. Go to

> http://ninemsn.com.au/mobilecentral/hotmail_mobile.asp

April 12, 2003

Then why are you on this list?

quintin strange wrote:

> Look I am the father of an autistic child and refuse to give him secretin,

> enzymes, magnesium or anything else except some vitamin supplements

> occassionally and fresh foods.

>

> I feel terribly sorry for many of you trying to 'cure' autism with the magic

> of charlatons who write all sorts of scurilous thesis on the absence of this

> mineral and that and allude to all sorts of pseudo cures and develoopmental

> discoveries on autism.

>

> Sure we all care and are all suffering as a result. But for gods sake don't

> you realise that your anxiety is in itself the worst input to the childs

> already disturbed system? he or she can detect and sense the extreme anxiety

> and tensions you carry as a result of your worry for them.

>

> The spectrum is so wide that the panic to get to the bottom of it ends up

> like a chase to catch the rainbow. its there but becomes more and more

> elusive even though you do appear to be getting closer.

>

> Our son is now full time at a 'normal' school which has an integration

> programme. he used to attend the 'best' special school in our city but we

> found the change from 2 days at normal school too much for him to return to

> special school where he began to play up.

>

> His peers at 'normal' school are a better influence and the teahcer and aid

> are trained. he's learned to hum the national anthem after the first few

> lines in the inro. He loves assembly and does most things the others do

> (monkey see monkey do) and within his limits absorbs and analyses these

> events in his life.

>

> Today he wrote Pizza as we spoke of the idea of taking him for one. His

> specialist teachers and the psychologists told us in no uncertain terms he

> would not do this and it was not important. We persevered without the fuss.

>

> Keep away from your manufactured products to a certain degree. he does eat

> KFC and Maccas occaccionally. he is motivated by those vsists and responds.

> Not a great motivator but it is controlled. It has done him no harm. Balance

> is the key.

>

> Don't go enzyming and mineralising for chrriskes. Try all of htis in

> moderation and remember they all grow and change whether or not you give

> them these magical potions. You see changes and miracles you want to see

> because you are expecting these.

>

> Cheers

>

> Rama Krishnan

>

> >From: " jornmatt " <kjorn@...>

> >Reply-

> >

> >Subject: Re: enzymes and aggression

> >Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 02:06:15 -0000

> >

> >That is excellent about the improvements!!!

> >

> >But the other stuff needs work, eh?!

> >

> >First, is your son ever aggressive at home too? or just at school?

> >do you think he might be getting too much sensory input at school

> >and just can't deal with it? If he has perked up so much at home,

> >then he might be very overwhelmed at school, and it is typical for

> >pre-schoolers to act out when overwhelmed. My son was not very

> >aggressive and never bothered other children, but when he went to

> >public school, it was just too much with all the regulation and long

> >days. He acted out, pushed furniture a few times, and needed to be

> >taken out of the class until the teacher figured out how to give

> >him 'down time' while in the class and throughout the day. She was

> >very experienced and did this all on her own. She explained it later

> >and said it wasn't any problem for her and she wanted my son in her

> >class...but he just seemed to need many more breaks by himself than

> >the other children. (I think she was hoping I wouldn't see it as a

> >punishment)

> >

> >He might need some instruction on how he should behave appropriately

> >around other children.

> >

> >The other thing I am thinking about is do you think that this may be

> >caused by the secretin? Secretin affects some kids very badly.

> >

> >Are you giving any other supplements? Like high B vitamins for

> >example? Those might be discontinued now. Very common not to need

> >that with enzymes.

> >

> >My other standard suggestion would be magnesium or epsom salts. Very

> >common to be deficient in magnesium. Also, if you are GFCF you loose

> >prime sources of magnesium in dairy and whole grains.

> >

> >One more...is he getting any snacks at school? Our school just can't

> >seem to shovel enough treats filled with sugar, artificial

> >colorings/flavorings and other junk into the kids. It certainly

> >wasn't like that when I went to school. He might be very sensitive

> >to the artificial stuff and that is setting him off. Here is some

> >more info on this.

> >

> >www.enzymestuff.com/magnesium.htm

> >www.enzymestuff.com/epsomsalts.htm

> >www.enzymestuff.com/dietsfg.htm

> >

> >.

> >

>

> _________________________________________________________________

> Hotmail now available on Australian mobile phones. Go to

> http://ninemsn.com.au/mobilecentral/hotmail_mobile.asp

>

April 12, 2003

This post reflects the email handle: quite strange,

Your message has contradictions, and the hostile tone reflects there

may be more amiss that you want to let on.

>>>> Look I am the father of an autistic child and refuse to give

him secretin, enzymes, magnesium or anything else except some

vitamin supplements occassionally and fresh foods.

Great! I hope you are happy with your choice that you feel is best

for your son. You don't sound happy with it, but I'm not going to

base everything on just one message. Actually, you didn't say you

were happy with that decision, you just said you made that decision.

At any rate, that wouldn't work for my sons and I am happy that I

pursued the measures that were best for them.

>>>> I feel terribly sorry for many of you trying to 'cure' autism

with the magic of charlatons who write all sorts of scurilous thesis

on the absence of this mineral and that and allude to all sorts of

pseudo cures and develoopmental discoveries on autism.

There is a lot of 'fraud' running around and people trying to make

lots of money on families problems. Seems to me about 85% of it is

bunk. That leaves 15-10% that is worthwhile. That is still something

to sift through. A saying I read is that a needle in a haystack is

better to some than not even having a haystack to look through.

Another version went 'would you rather have to dig through ten

square miles of garbage dump for one gold coin, or would you rather

not have the pile of garbage containing one gold coin at all?'

[answers can vary]

>>>>> don't you realise that your anxiety is in itself the worst

input to the childs already disturbed system?

it may or may not be the worse, but there are studies showing that

worrying over health problems can cause more health problems in

itself. Sometimes far worse health problems that what you are

worrying over. Fear is powerful.

>>>His specialist teachers and the psychologists told us in no

uncertain terms he would not do this and it was not important. We

persevered without the fuss.

EXACTLY! You are preservering in spite of negative advice that there

was not hope and you found a better way. But it seems now you want

to dispense 'no hope' to others. People presevere in different ways.

People need to lessen or stop their preservering as they feel is

appropriate. Glad you son is doing well in school.

>>>> Balance is the key.

EXACTLY! But saying 'don't go enzyming and mineralising' is quite

unbalanced and a sweeping generalization. So now we have a big

contradiction.

>>>Try all of htis in moderation and remember they all grow and

change whether or not you give them these magical potions.

OH, good. We are back to balance and moderation again. So the one

sentence that does not fit the rest of the message is the one that

reads 'don't go enzyming and mineralising.'

>>>>You see changes and miracles you want to see because you are

expecting these.

Oh drat. Now we are unbalanced, not in moderation and criticising in

a sweeping way again. I do better with consistency. Does this mean

that your son did not really improve in the 'normal' school because

you just wanted to see him as improving there? or is he really doing

better? If it is just what you want to see, how do you know the

difference? I don't need a specific answer...this is really more of

a 'food for thought' type question.

I think the take-home message that you are TRYING to get across is:

- not to get really fanatical and extreme about things

- be realistic with any therapy or treatment

- don't go running around trying all sorts of fad diets,

supplements, therapies, etc because there are many charlatans

running around

- keep a balanced approach

- don't overlook obvious things that may help (like copying peers in

a healthy way)

all of these points, I fundamentally agree with. The delivery needs

work, but not to fear. I have trouble with my delivery many times.

.

April 13, 2003

I can appreciate your point of view. However, it is apparent you cannot

appreciate mine. I don't come to this message board to read the nonsense you

have to write. Don't criticize me, I've had enough from Doctors, family,

friends, therapists and strangers. My son is healthy. Everything I give him is

completely safe, I've researched to no end. The fact that specialists had him

down to 32 pounds at 4 years of age and his medical prognosis was getting

dramatically worse ( impaired poly sacchri responsiveness). Yes, they had

medicated him to the point he wasn't even responding to the medication any more,

lost the language he had acquired through ABA, was no longer sleeping through

the night, had to wear pull ups for the diarrhea, despite being potty trained

for 2 years. ON NATURAL PRODUCTS ONLY I have him at 43 pounds at 4 years of age

and he is progressing so well developmentally that he almost progressed himself

right out of qualifying for services from our school district. I only give

advice to those that ask for it, I did not ask for your opinion. In the future I

will simply delete when I see that the message is from you.

Re: enzymes and aggression