Re: Day 17 update -- MORE ABOUT HEAD-BANGING

[Guest guest]

> A few people have reported that Peptizyde helps with yeast

control.

> Could he have a yeast issue?

He could have a yeast issue... I keep reading your posts explaining

how yeasty poos look and I read your yeast and phenol pages, and I

just can't decide if he does and how bad. I will say that his poos

have really gotten much better since starting the AFP.

>

> I would recommend you reduce the dose to 1/4 capsule. Do you give

it

> with all meals and snacks?

I do give it with almost all meals and snacks. Since his head-

banging increased this weekend I let him have one snack a day w/out

enzymes. Can I elaborate on something here? After pondering

's, 's, minna's replies, and now yours, it might help if I

give some specific info about the head-banging. Yes, he's doing it

because he's suffering through die-off or withdrawal or both. But

does it matter to you that he's CLEARLY doing it to manipulate us?

He's not just random head-banging, like to avoid pain. At least it

doesn't seem that way. When he's feeling bad from the enzymes, all

he wants to do is watch the idiot-box. This makes me unbelievably

stressed. (We didn't have an idiot-box growing up.) When I try to

get him involved in something else, he promptly lays down and thumps,

first softly, then harder, until we come running from all areas of

the house, and fly to the video machine, and put in whatever he wants

immediately. Pronto. He stops the head-banging. So yes, he's doing

it because he doesn't feel well, and also yes, he's doing it to get

exactly what he wants. We give in because when he's feeling great,

which is 90 percent of the time, he would never do this. So when he

does, it's horrible. Does that change anyone's idea of what they

were thinking about his reaction to AFP?

Thanks,

[Guest guest]

Get rid of the TV....maybe then he won't have the catalyst to bring

on the headbanging!!

> He's not just random head-banging, like to avoid pain. At least

it

> doesn't seem that way. When he's feeling bad from the enzymes,

all

> he wants to do is watch the idiot-box. This makes me unbelievably

> stressed. (We didn't have an idiot-box growing up.) When I try

to

> get him involved in something else, he promptly lays down and

thumps,

> first softly, then harder, until we come running from all areas of

> the house, and fly to the video machine, and put in whatever he

wants

> immediately. Pronto. He stops the head-banging. So yes, he's

doing

> it because he doesn't feel well, and also yes, he's doing it to

get

> exactly what he wants. We give in because when he's feeling

great,

> which is 90 percent of the time, he would never do this. So when

he

> does, it's horrible. Does that change anyone's idea of what they

> were thinking about his reaction to AFP?

>

> Thanks,

[Guest guest]

Not really. At age 16 mo. when we were in the worst of it, terrible two's

started early, yes ph would bang his head when aggravated. Company came

over, TV went off and radio was turned on, ceiling fan and lights on at the same

time, tried to catch him for a diaper change. I equate it to, I'm having a bad

day ( not feeling well due to die-off) and then someone expects me to sit down

and do calculus. If you read Carol Kranowitz The Out of Sync Child, it is a

little bit easier to see how these kids feel like they have to control their

environment, especially when they are physically not feeling their best. When

the TV is on they can zone, tune in or tune out as their little systems require.

We went through spells where we didn't leave the house, TV was on, and he walked

around in his pajamas all day. I was honest when I said those two months of

adjusting to all three enzymes were some of the most intensely parenting painful

moments of my life. As a parent you want desperately to do what is best, but

there is no blessed handbook for this. There are wonderful people who give

advice, knowledge and support, but is lonely in that house when you accept that

every child is different, and maybe this isn't for your child. I knew from the

good, bad and ugly that this was for ph, but it was still a rough time. By

the way, he had some food infractions at our Memorial Day block party yesterday,

and he pooped fine, slept fine, skin is fine, and he's doing great today. That's

after only 4 months on enzymes.

Re: Day 17 update -- MORE ABOUT HEAD-BANGING

> A few people have reported that Peptizyde helps with yeast

control.

> Could he have a yeast issue?

He could have a yeast issue... I keep reading your posts explaining

how yeasty poos look and I read your yeast and phenol pages, and I

just can't decide if he does and how bad. I will say that his poos

have really gotten much better since starting the AFP.

>

> I would recommend you reduce the dose to 1/4 capsule. Do you give

it

> with all meals and snacks?

I do give it with almost all meals and snacks. Since his head-

banging increased this weekend I let him have one snack a day w/out

enzymes. Can I elaborate on something here? After pondering

's, 's, minna's replies, and now yours, it might help if I

give some specific info about the head-banging. Yes, he's doing it

because he's suffering through die-off or withdrawal or both. But

does it matter to you that he's CLEARLY doing it to manipulate us?

He's not just random head-banging, like to avoid pain. At least it

doesn't seem that way. When he's feeling bad from the enzymes, all

he wants to do is watch the idiot-box. This makes me unbelievably

stressed. (We didn't have an idiot-box growing up.) When I try to

get him involved in something else, he promptly lays down and thumps,

first softly, then harder, until we come running from all areas of

the house, and fly to the video machine, and put in whatever he wants

immediately. Pronto. He stops the head-banging. So yes, he's doing

it because he doesn't feel well, and also yes, he's doing it to get

exactly what he wants. We give in because when he's feeling great,

which is 90 percent of the time, he would never do this. So when he

does, it's horrible. Does that change anyone's idea of what they

were thinking about his reaction to AFP?

Thanks,

[Guest guest]

well it does sound like you know what the head banging is all about.

he has learned very quickly, what will get the whole household

jumping, in a hurry, to give him what he wants... TV!!!!

on one level, it is ok to let him stim out a little, (as temple

grandin says, 1 hour of tv a day is to stim on but more is not).

we all need to stim a little.

ofcourse, many of us would want to stim ALOT! lol

BUT, irregardless of what we want, we cant be stimming out, tuning

out, whatever on tv or anything else for the day....

but, as someone posted, during a transition from no enzymes to

enzymes, sometimes it is necessary to figure out what is worht it for

a battle and what is not......

also, there is the fact that we learn quickly what is now

a " precedence " . So, if head banging brings the tv back on in a

hurry, (and brings the household running your way, why not try the

approach also for other things, lol).... then it becomes a VERY

strong reinforced behaviour... which you dont want....

SO, perhaps a little behaviour mod. might be your approach.

there is the #autism channel mesage board at:

http://www.autismchannel.net/cgi-bin/autboard.pl

where there is a person posting named MC who has a done huge amounts

of work with her son. lower functioning, nonverbal child, who had

some " severe " behaviours, (including head banging) and she went to a

special program at a university hospital where they taught how to

deal with it.

very quickly her approach seemed to work for her son.

you might want to go there, and ask for some advice from her.

she posts about it much better then can do it.

but the basic idea is that the child would be rewarded as soon as he

STOPS doing what you dont want him to do.

so, as soon as he stops head banging, you immediately reward him with

something that is HIGHLY motivating for him.

it seems that the TV is highly motivating, but since he cant watch it

all day, it is best to use anything else as the motivator for head

banging resulting from tv turned off.... so, maybe some little candy

piece, tickles, spinning him on a chair, etc. whatever he really

likes.

you might also make him a picture schedule of when he can watch tv.

and tell him when the tv time is coming if he wants to turn it on

before. show him from the schedule.

obviously he wont stop banging for long time. even a second is good.

if he just lifts his head up, and hesitates to bang it for a second,

that is time to give him the highly motivating thing, and say " good,

no head banging " . it will take time, and consistency.

but better now, then having to deal with this for long time.....

soon enough, the head banging will translate from tv to other things

if it continues.

minna

[Guest guest]

My husband would be thrilled...

> Get rid of the TV....maybe then he won't have the catalyst to bring

> on the headbanging!!

[Guest guest]

Congrats to the little guy for good poo! (Now there's something I

don't say on a day-to-day basis...) Thanks for this advice.

> Not really. At age 16 mo. when we were in the worst of it, terrible

two's started early, yes ph would bang his head when aggravated.

Company came over, TV went off and radio was turned on, ceiling fan

and lights on at the same time, tried to catch him for a diaper

change. I equate it to, I'm having a bad day ( not feeling well due

to die-off) and then someone expects me to sit down and do calculus.

If you read Carol Kranowitz The Out of Sync Child, it is a little bit

easier to see how these kids feel like they have to control their

environment, especially when they are physically not feeling their

best. When the TV is on they can zone, tune in or tune out as their

little systems require. We went through spells where we didn't leave

the house, TV was on, and he walked around in his pajamas all day. I

was honest when I said those two months of adjusting to all three

enzymes were some of the most intensely parenting painful moments of

my life. As a parent you want desperately to do what is best, but

there is no blessed handbook for this. There are wonderful people who

give advice, knowledge and support, but is lonely in that house when

you accept that every child is different, and maybe this isn't for

your child. I knew from the good, bad and ugly that this was for

ph, but it was still a rough time. By the way, he had some food

infractions at our Memorial Day block party yesterday, and he pooped

fine, slept fine, skin is fine, and he's doing great today. That's

after only 4 months on enzymes.

[Guest guest]

Oh boy, I never reasoned it out that far. Yes, I'm sure you're

right. I'll check out that link pronto. Thanks for the help.

> also, there is the fact that we learn quickly what is now

> a " precedence " . So, if head banging brings the tv back on in a

> hurry, (and brings the household running your way, why not try the

> approach also for other things, lol).... then it becomes a VERY

> strong reinforced behaviour... which you dont want....

[Guest guest]

> give some specific info about the head-banging. Yes, he's doing it

> because he's suffering through die-off or withdrawal or both. But

> does it matter to you that he's CLEARLY doing it to manipulate us?

Yes

When I try to

> get him involved in something else, he promptly lays down and

thumps,

> first softly, then harder, until we come running from all areas of

> the house, and fly to the video machine, and put in whatever he

wants

> immediately. Pronto. He stops the head-banging. So yes, he's

doing

> it because he doesn't feel well, and also yes, he's doing it to get

> exactly what he wants.

Well, I would not try to get him involved in something else if you

know he is not feeling good. But if he starts the head banging, I

would put him in bed. Say " oh you must not be feeling good. Here,

let's put you in bed. " Then put him in bed. If he screams or

whatever, just close the door and let him. For my son, the first day

lasted about an hour. After that, not more than 5 minutes. Now he

just goes to bed and sits there quietly. I listen at the closed door,

and if I don't hear any noise, I let him come out after about a

minute.

Dana

[Guest guest]

> Well, I would not try to get him involved in something else if you

> know he is not feeling good. But if he starts the head banging, I

> would put him in bed. Say " oh you must not be feeling good. Here,

> let's put you in bed. " Then put him in bed. If he screams or

> whatever, just close the door and let him. For my son, the first

day

> lasted about an hour. After that, not more than 5 minutes. Now he

> just goes to bed and sits there quietly. I listen at the closed

door,

> and if I don't hear any noise, I let him come out after about a

> minute.

I really liked 0624's advice about getting out of the house.

This is what we try to do everyday, but this weekend was just

miserable here in northwest NJ (50 and rain every day) and I think

contributed to DS's feeling badly and therefore headbanging. But

Dana, I really think that your approach is something that would work

well for us. He learned how to sleep alone really fast that way.

One bad night, and that was it, and now he's a pretty darn good

sleeper. However, do you have a problem associating a negative

response with the bed? Will he start to not like his bed? He LOVES

his crib now, sometimes just " asks " to be put in to cuddle with his

blanket and animals. Will I jeopardize that? Maybe I could get a

playpen thing just for the headbanging negative reinforcement? Or

would it be icky seeing it sit there everyday? Or maybe act as a

reinforcer of good behaviour?

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

How old is your son?? Can you set a timer for him and tell him

that is how much TV he can have today. It works wonders to have

that timer for lots of things as it is something (not You) telling

him that his time is up for anything he happens to be doing. Once

he understands that limit, then if he does head banging, maybe you

can say that he would get less TV or no TV at all if he bangs his

head (depending on his understanding level.) We do use TV watching

time as a positive reinforcement, but he knows he only gets two

movies, or two channel programs. The timer works great for many

things that you need to set limits to (and it's not you, directly,

who is saying he has to stop watching TV) and it worked for us

around the age of 4. By the way, I was the one who suggested you

get rid of the TV, which was suggested to me but very hard to do

since others like to watch.....but we all have our time limit and

the TV isn't on too much. Our biggest issue right now is actually

the computer......for all of us including me!!! Hope this helps.

Take care, Becky

[Guest guest]

Just wanted to post that years ago when my son head banged I found some info

that stated they head bang because of the brain swelling and placing pressure

against the skull.....these kids are hurting and want the pain to go away.I

certainly would be careful about thinking its behaviorial instead of a physical

situation. Antioxidants are also anti-inflamatory agents and maybe the kids need

more of them.

FWIW, R

[Guest guest]

This was part of what Dr. Goldberg said also. I knew it scared me for a reason (

when it was happening).

Re: Re: Day 17 update -- MORE ABOUT HEAD-BANGING

Just wanted to post that years ago when my son head banged I found some info

that stated they head bang because of the brain swelling and placing pressure

against the skull.....these kids are hurting and want the pain to go away.I

certainly would be careful about thinking its behaviorial instead of a physical

situation. Antioxidants are also anti-inflamatory agents and maybe the kids need

more of them.

FWIW, R

[Guest guest]

But

> Dana, I really think that your approach is something that would work

> well for us. He learned how to sleep alone really fast that way.

> One bad night, and that was it, and now he's a pretty darn good

> sleeper. However, do you have a problem associating a negative

> response with the bed? Will he start to not like his bed?

We also play games in bed. My kids have bunk beds, and I wrap a big

blanket around the upper bed so it drapes down around the lower bed,

and we get in the bed with flashlights and read books, or play

peekaboo, or hide from daddy, or whatever. So my kids associate their

beds with good things. And being sent to bed when they don't feel

good is seen as a good thing most of the time, altho sometimes they

say " no " and then I let them lie down on the couch with a blanket over

them.

He LOVES

> his crib now, sometimes just " asks " to be put in to cuddle with his

> blanket and animals. Will I jeopardize that? Maybe I could get a

> playpen thing just for the headbanging negative reinforcement?

Because of the antimony issue, I would not recommend a playpen.

My kids are older than playpen size, so I have never used that.

Or

> would it be icky seeing it sit there everyday? Or maybe act as a

> reinforcer of good behaviour?

It might work for you. I can say " do you want to SIT? " and I point to

the timeout chair, and my kids know they had better start behaving,

because they don't want to sit there.

Dana