Worthy consideration was/Why bash Mark?/was: Night Sweats

[Guest guest]

Dear Kenny,

Thank you for the information. I will still read Marks

posts, as I feel he does add more positive then

negative, and seems to have a heart for the parents

here. Believe me I have seen the good the bad and the

ugly posts from him as well. Still, I appreciate his

passion for our situation.

I do have a question though,

Is there any reason that ANYBODY needs to disrespect

anyone else on the list, or for that matter anywhere?

ly more then anything else, I am so sick of the

love, and need, to lash out at others who are trying

to help. Weather they are right or wrong, at least

they are here, working on the problem. Can we afford

to be unappreciative of that? So many, all over the

world, could care less!!!

Determining who is right or wrong about treatments

seems to be pretty hit and miss from what I have heard

and seen. Every child is totally different from the

next. The only constant is that they are all poisoned.

I like to have a few different opinions so that I can

make my own decisions, and welcome input. Isn't that

why we are all here? Sometimes it seems like it is all

about egos, and position. So many seem to need

validation from strangers they will never see. Why?

I just think everyone deserves to be treated with

worth, and value. Even the people on the other side of

the table... maybe we can help to change the thinking

of someone who could blow this thing wide open for us!

If we could just communicate to each other (both

sides) with the thought in mind that ALL of us have

worth, and should be given consideration, for a

moment. What you do with the information is totally

up to you. So much time is wasted arguing about

details, between those who are in the same camp! Any

one of us who depend on a message board to cure our

children is in BIG trouble.

On a personal note, I will say this, I have seen my

children picked on so many damn times I will side with

the " underdog " every time...always. You cannot bully

someone and not hit a major nerve in my heart. People

HAVE to be worth more then that!

When someone is condescending or lashes out in a nasty

way, it shuts me down from receiving what they are

saying... valid or not.

Debbie

--- kenny V <KEN@...> wrote:

> Very good points ***

> BTW Mark maybe sincere, however many times freely

> offers advice on

> topics

>

>

>

> > It is not just Mark. But I have noticed he really

> gets

> > hit pretty hard. Unfortunately even those who say

> they

> > seek truth are often afraid of it. I too have been

> „« bashed.

> „«

> > When people are unkind to one another it simply

> shows

> > something lacking in their character. Mark is a

> > blessing, and I think he knows that his words are

> > given the utmost respect, at least by those of us

> who

> > are not afraid or threatened by hearing a

> Christians

> > point of view. I for one listen with my heart, and

> I

> „« hear fear here all the time.

>

>

> I did not write this to share words of unkindness

> but rather respect

> to all.

> 2nd btw those seeking truth and to set the story

> straight.

>

> He is a nice Jewish man with a laptop computer in

> Brazil who is

> writing articles and self published books He's been

> learning

> about

> biomedical and chelation for about 2 years now.

>

> In all fairness this is what he has shared with me

> personally when

> we spoke with one another over the phone about 3

> months ago. We

> originally shared valuable info and also swapped

> some personal

> stories, he was even kind enough to call.

>

> Kenny V-

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Debbie,

I agree with you completely but here is the conundrum: your comments are a

criticism of people already inclined to " attack " individuals and highly likely

to be (mis)interpretted as a personal attack against them. People who lash out

are very often practicing the principle " A good offense is the best defense " .

In essence: Fighting against all the fighting is still fighting.

There are some things which work to escape that trap. When someone is reactive,

being more respectful of them will usually tone it down (but not always). It is

entirely possible to express respect for an individual while critiquing their

ideas. Most people feel personally attacked when their ideas are criticized and

most people also do not know good methodologies for clearly distinguishing

between those two things. When such methods become part of a group culture,

conflict begins to drop dramatically. I have promoted such rubrics in other

forums and seen the effects.

I, personally, think it is just " shooting yourself in the foot " to attack

individuals. I get attacked a lot in various forums because of my " radical "

ideas. Sometimes, folks are careful to say they find my ideas dumbfounding

without dismissing me as individual. In those cases, they sometimes find that a

longer conversation makes my ideas more clear for them and gives them new tools

for dealing with their difficult child. Those who find my ideas " outrageous "

and think it is fine to attack me as an individual may not ever benefit from

what I know. If you have a very difficult child, I think it is worthwhile to

try to distinguish clearly between a person (whose personality may rub you all

wrong) and their ideas (which may have value separate from whether or not you

like the person). Obviously, you should also 'consider the source' -- some

people aren't very reliable sources of information. Nonetheless, they may still

toss out valuable nuggets. You just have to make sure you do

your own fact-checking and such.

It isn't easy to change the overall atmosphere and culture of a group, but it is

certainly do-able. It takes time -- something I don't have right this minute to

even properly express my thoughts on the topic. If you are interested in

hearing them, I can elaborate later.

Cheers,

Michele in California

calif.michele@...

webmaster@...

Visit Michele's World! of (Twice) Exceptional Homeschooling

http://www.califmichele.com

" Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding. " --

Albert Einstein

[Guest guest]

-We can become very stressed out as it related to the closest things

to our hearts.

" Getting our children back "

Bc we all been /are victims who till this day are mistreated,

shuttered away from an un-trusted mainstream medical community.

Then to top it off to be outcasts in society, ignored mocked scoffed

at, shut off by not only by our family friends and co- workers, but

by the rest of the world for that matter.

So yes talking about the conditions of our children can become a

very sensitive subject as it relates to chelation/ redistribution/

regressions/ seizures/ and a host of uncertain reactions and

behaviors.

I must say upon my initial conversations with Mark and as I went

deeper into the subject as it related to chelation, I continually

asked myself.

What is the motive here?

Considering you are writing a book, In all your exposure to

chelation, have you heard of any stories of recovery and progression

with chelation?

" DID you ever even meet an autistic child in person?

Have you ever seen a child bang their head against a wall repeatedly?

To the answer of my request was " I have read the stories and my

heart goes out to them. "

Well so does mine, it goes out to those who doesn't believe they

can

do anything to help their children get better, and put their trust in

the so called experts who use drugs and treat symptoms instead of the

child as a whole.

And lately it is for those parents who are seeking help bc recently

they received the reality of a life changing diagnosis, confused

about what the can do for their children. Only to be told not too

much of anything from the mainstream approach.

My heart goes out to those who are scared to embark on chelation as

they listen to the media from the outside and as they hear horror

stories from improper treatments and protocols.

I read these bio boards silently for over 3 years before asking one

question never mind offering advice to others.These groups are

sensitive and do provide valuable information from other parents who

have been through this awhile.

Words WISDOM sprinkled with a season of HOPE.

Yes they all do take a shape and are become rigid in their beliefs,

then someone new comes around asking Q's or possible becomes

argumentative about a topic which causes strife.

IMO we do need to be open learn to think outside the box and hear

both sides to a debatable issue.

Freedom of expression is fine, bashing is not at all effective,

especially for those who are seeking and exposed to this as it is

going on. But that is how we separate the wheat from the chaff.

It is all about making an informed choice.

Many parents here who have been though the ruff, seasoned and

callused what the world already dished them, and are just too used to

acting upon instinct to protect themselves from being hurt anymore.

I will say we are all sincere in what we do …..

But that does not always make it right……… does it?

If your child has an eye infection and you go to a doctor who in

return prescribes eye drops.

Then you go to the pharmacy and get the prescription filled, follow

the directions and put 3 drops in the child eyes. But instead of

medicine in that bottle is lysergic acid, not knowing you burn out

the child's retinas.

Was the doctor sincere, how about the pharmacist?

May I ask were you also sincere in doing so?

Of course you were, but being sincere does not always make it right

does it?

Not a great illustration, but I guess many of us have seen this type

of thing happen way too often.

Kenny V

-- In , Debbie Graves <gravesfmly@y...>

wrote:

> Dear Kenny,

> Thank you for the information. I will still read Marks

> posts, as I feel he does add more positive then

> negative, and seems to have a heart for the parents

> here. Believe me I have seen the good the bad and the

> ugly posts from him as well. Still, I appreciate his

> passion for our situation.

> I do have a question though,

> Is there any reason that ANYBODY needs to disrespect

> anyone else on the list, or for that matter anywhere?

> ly more then anything else, I am so sick of the

> love, and need, to lash out at others who are trying

> to help. Weather they are right or wrong, at least

> they are here, working on the problem. Can we afford

> to be unappreciative of that? So many, all over the

> world, could care less!!!

> Determining who is right or wrong about treatments

> seems to be pretty hit and miss from what I have heard

> and seen. Every child is totally different from the

> next. The only constant is that they are all poisoned.

> I like to have a few different opinions so that I can

> make my own decisions, and welcome input. Isn't that

> why we are all here? Sometimes it seems like it is all

> about egos, and position. So many seem to need

> validation from strangers they will never see. Why?

> I just think everyone deserves to be treated with

> worth, and value. Even the people on the other side of

> the table... maybe we can help to change the thinking

> of someone who could blow this thing wide open for us!

> If we could just communicate to each other (both

> sides) with the thought in mind that ALL of us have

> worth, and should be given consideration, for a

> moment. What you do with the information is totally

> up to you. So much time is wasted arguing about

> details, between those who are in the same camp! Any

> one of us who depend on a message board to cure our

> children is in BIG trouble.

> On a personal note, I will say this, I have seen my

> children picked on so many damn times I will side with

> the " underdog " every time...always. You cannot bully

> someone and not hit a major nerve in my heart. People

> HAVE to be worth more then that!

> When someone is condescending or lashes out in a nasty

> way, it shuts me down from receiving what they are

> saying... valid or not.

> Debbie

>

> --- kenny V <KEN@K...> wrote:

>

> > Very good points ***

> > BTW Mark maybe sincere, however many times freely

> > offers advice on

> > topics

> >

> >

> >

> > > My opinion of the problem is this : in the

> > context of this

> > > cyberworld we're communicating in, we cannot use

> > the clues we

> > would

> > > normally have to help us discern how sound advice

> > might be. A

> > > certificate on a wall, a fellow parent rolling

> > their eyes, etc.

> > We

> > > can only see the printed word. Over time, of

> > course, we learn

> > about

> > > people and by accumulating knowledge pertinent to

> > ASD we can come

> > to

> > > our own conclusions about advice we read.

> > >

> > > Before I posted a question or took any advice, I

> > read this board

> > for

> > > many weeks, trying to learn who I felt I could

> > trust. Many people

> > > do not do that--although everyone, in my opinion,

> > should, for the

> > > sake of their kids. For people who may be new to

> > the board and

> > > feeling overwhelmed, if the printed word is

> > actually unsound

> > advice,

> > > they may have no way of knowing that.

> > Furthermore, if someone is

> > > representing themselves as something more than

> > they are, newbies

> > may

> > > also not be aware of that.

> > >

> > > In the case of Mark, his signature on all of his

> > posts sounds very

> > > impressive. The vast majority of us make no

> > claims for expertise

> > > beyond being parents who have put in the time and

> > research for our

> > > kids. So, if I tell you blah, blah, blah, and it

> > doesn't sound

> > > right, you are more likely to dismiss me because I

> > am just a mom.

> > >

> > > There is a history on this board that I'm sure has

> > caused many

> > > people to line up on one side or another. I don't

> > believe that

> > for

> > > a moment that is " bashing " Mark. I think

> > that she is

> > > sharing information that will help Kerrie make a

> > more informed

> > > opinion about the advice she is being offered.

> > 's record

> > on

> > > this board is one of generosity and excellent

> > advice.

> > >

> > > I certainly hope that you choose to post when you

> > have ideas to

> > > share. I share my ideas now that I'm more

> > comfortable with my

> > > knowledge of and experience with ASD. I also

> > hope, hope, hope

> > that

> > > if I share a bad idea, someone calls me on it. I

> > am far more

> > afraid

> > > of saying something that might hurt a child than I

> > am of having my

> > > own feelings hurt.

> > >

> > > My opinion,

> > > Anita

> > >

> >

> >

> > ***Very good points *** Very good points ***

> >

> >

> > BTW Mark maybe sincere, however many times freely

> > offers advice on

> > topics he knows nothing about.

> > He also misrepresents himself way too much and those

> > who know this

> > set the story straight, then it seems he is being

> > bashed.

> >

> > This is very important for the sake of the reader BC

> > many are

> > seeking answers about proper chelation protocols and

> > biomedical

> > intervention.

> >

> >

> > /r/hs

[Guest guest]

Someone posted a link to this story earlier. Right on

target, I copied and pasted it so hopefully it would

help me make my point. Take it for what it is worth.

" We Are The Only Witnesses "

Autism, Thimerosal and a Civil Rights Author - A Point

to be Considered

“For nothing is fixed, forever and forever and

forever, it is not fixed; the earth is always

shifting, the light is always changing, the sea does

not cease to grind down rock. Generations do not cease

to be born, and we are responsible to them because we

are the only witnesses they have. The sea rises, the

light fails, lovers cling to each other, and children

cling to us. The moment we cease to hold each other,

the sea engulfs us and the light goes out.”

Baldwin

The first thought must be, what does Baldwin

have to do with autism? Mr. Baldwin was an

African-American writer in the mid-twentieth century.

He is best know for his work “Go Tell It On the

Mountain,” a novel about social injustice and the

African-American experience. But when I read his

quote, I think he may have understood about autism as

well if he were still with us.

One of the biggest problems in the autism community is

the lack of unity.

In my view this is a bigger problem than whether

thimerosal causes autism or not. The recent

controversy about thimerosal, begun by F.

Kennedy, Jr. and continuing now by autism advocates

nationwide illustrates this. Not because of the story.

The mere idea that the government could have been

aware of the damage thimerosal was causing and allowed

it to continue is heinous. This, if indeed it proves

to be the case, is perhaps the biggest scandal and

betrayal the U.S. Government has ever participated in.

Let no one think that I would ever turn a blind eye to

this or approve of it in any way.

But why does this controversy cause conflict within

the autism community? The conflict should exist

between the parents with children who have autism and

the government and/or pharmaceutical companies. The

conflict should not, and must not, be between the

parents. This is NOT an internal conflict, it is an

external one.

What our search should be for (and by “our” I mean

parents, caregivers, and people affected by autism) is

the truth. Truth about the cause and the treatment is

what matters. It doesn't do anyone any good to argue

about something still undetermined and these arguments

and conflicts are driving away the people who can help

us find the truth. The lack of unity can only provide

ammunition for those who wish to hide the truth,

whatever the truth may be.

“The moment we cease to hold each other, the sea

engulfs us and the light goes out.” That is why I

think Baldwin would understand the problem with

autism today and we would do well to remember his

words

>

>

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Mark,

I also would like to see the conflict reduced and the general overall atmosphere

improved and you are usually the center of controversy. So here are my

thoughts:

A) I notice you have removed the credentials from your signature which has been

part of the focus of this latest conflict. I think that is a good thing and I

think it shows that you really are trying to figure out how to stop being the

center of controversy and just don't really know how.

When I went through 22 months of drug withdrawal, I had the role on a

different list that you have here: the lightening rod, the center of

controversy, etc. I learned some of the following lessons: 1) If you are the

center of controversy, you have the most power to reduce the conflict BUT it

takes enormous self-restraint. 2) In hostile situaions: " Less is more " . Your

last two long e-mails only dug your grave deeper, which is a shame since you

did, in fact, remove the signature block that people were complaining about. 3)

Sincere apologies work. Although you sometimes toss in phrases like " I am

sorry " or " I apologize " , you then generally go on to insult, bully, etc at

length -- making your 'apologies' appear to be anything but sincere.

It is a shame that you did not simply express your regret that your signature

block had ever been a source of concern, apologize for not realizing how it

looked to others, and note that you were removing it so as to not appear to be

setting yourself as " more expert " than others here. That would have gone a long

way towards calming the waters. Regardless, I hope you stick to your new

practice of simply signing your e-mails " Mark " and I hope it will help to reduce

conflict in the future.

Peace,

Michele in California

calif.michele@...

webmaster@...

Visit Michele's World! of (Twice) Exceptional Homeschooling

http://www.califmichele.com

" Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding. " --

Albert Einstein

[Guest guest]

can we just stop this. can we just get back to helping each other

autism treatment please. maybe if some feel the need to continue this

discussion, argument maybe you could email alone or between the few of you.

I am a little tired of deleting the extra emails after spending even a few

seconds of determining if this is a topic of interest.

Please and thank you

[ ] Worthy consideration was/Why bash Mark?/was:

Night Sweats

Mark started it this time by acting like he is some sort of an expert

and then offering to advise someone privately. I don't see anything

wrong with warning people publically about Mark's lack of credentials

and experience.

I really do not know how to answer this communication of yours with

much grace so forgive me. But I will try. This entire communication of

yours

'feels' like an attack for it assumes a lot about me in a negative sense.

Certainly your communication does not fulfill my need for respect,

fairness

or justice. For you to judge me and accuse me of having no right to offer

help to anyone privately is beyond anything I have seen before. All of my

work is about communication and the sharing of information and experience

so

to attack or accuse or communicate what you did for me offering

communication in a private sense seems to violate some very basic rights

and

freedoms but that does not suprise me in an increasingly fascist world.

I have been involved in the healing area for almost 25 years. To have been

a

certified primary health care practitioner and to have this amount of

years

under my belt and to have you or anyone say what you said above is wild

beyond my imagination.

To accuse me of " starting it " just by offering to communicate.....really

wow.....perhaps we should have a bash Mark hour each week so people can

legally get it out of their systems though I really do not enjoy being

other

peoples punching bag unless it does lead to conflict resolution and heart

to

heart communication and connection.

Mark.

=======================================================