Re: Preventive effect of cilantro HMD

[Guest guest]

:

Thank you for the link that I asked Mark to provide. I appreciate it.

Dr. submitted some studies which were scrutinized for their errors,

and all studies have errors. Those studies did have some pretty significan

flaws. Dr. Hayley himself said to be careful when extrapolating studies which

prove a substance removes mercury from water, to the conclusion that a substance

removes mercury from a person.

As to Mr. Sircus, he made his bed here, a long time ago, by pretending to be an

expert where he clearly was not. And his latest attempts to profit here, have

not bode well for him. I don't dislike him per se, but detest that when a mother

comes on here with a symptom of her child, he takes the opportunity to worry her

needlessly, with a quick diagnosis of kidney and/or liver disease......for which

the cure is??? You guessed it!!!!

We won't hold that against the cilantro if it is proven to be a good, safe

choice as a chelator.

Also, these guys are big boys, don't need a protector, and frankly,

overprotecting them and fighting their battles could end up making them feel

weaker. Sure don't want that.

Thank you again for the link. I am printing it out as we speak. I will read it

thoroughly and give it, its proper due.

[ ] Re: Preventive effect of cilantro

> When I hear doctor saying " Cilantro is cheap, effective,

atoxic and

> with my patients always works " a nice feeling arises, one of trust

for him

> and his experience with cilantro.

-- why do you a trust a man who has repeatedly been asked civilly to

explain how he administers cilantro and what doses and dosing

periods are safe, yet has failed to answer these questions?

If Andy refused to explain his protocol you would much less

forgiving.

>It stimulates my interest to explore

> cilantro more and I do have a scheduled writing project about it

since I am

> involved to one degree or another with two companies that have

natural

> chelator forumulas with cilantro.

-- I hope it is more objective than your post on magnesium oil and

it does not quote flakes like Dr Norman Shealy. Also, do you plan on

answering queries re magnesium glycinate? If you post writings on

magnesium on an autism list you really have to discus this form of

magnesium.

>I wish Andy you would keep more of an open

> mind about such things because in the future people will more and

more need

> inexpensive chelators that they can grow on their own or buy

inexpensively.

-- cost and convenience are important, but less important than

safety and efficacy. We need more info on these aspects of cilantro.

There have been many reports on negative efects of cilantro in

mercury toxic people. It is irresponsible to ignore these.

I would also add that it is irresponsbile and callous of you to

ignore the many postings by people who have experienced side-effects

with the Buttar protocol and had better results when switching to

the frequent dose protocol.

Despite your many postings aggressively advocating buttar's protocol

and attacking Andy's, you have not once adressed the many postings

that report better results with the frequent dose schedule.

The kids who were hurt by Buttar's system and benefitted from the

change in dosing schedules are real people. We should be driven by

their needs, not our own egos.

It is wrong to ignore reality in order to push your own barrow. But

it appears that his is precisely whart you intend to do again in

advocating cilantro.

Steve

=======================================================

[Guest guest]

Question: If they eat cilantro daily, why would they get a build up of

mercury/heavy metals in the first place. If it chelates the metals and you are

eating it everyday why does anyone have a problem?

[ ] Re: Preventive effect of cilantro HMD

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> > By the way.. my son has been taking cilantro for over 30 days now and is

> > making huge gains..

> >

> >

> >

> > Just wanted to let you all know.

>

>

> My friend's serious regression was after a small daily dose for about

> 3 months. She still hasn't recovered. For me, if I remember

> correctly, it was at 6 weeks when it hit me hard.

>

>

>

>

>

>

> =======================================================

>

[Guest guest]

<<<Always looking for something of value, this was the best I could come up

with amidst this message.

Yes I was thrown off one group recently for my honest communication to Mark

Shauss. So what? Funny you You remind me of him for some reason.

<<<Funny, I never realized it either, but he is right. Mark Shauss and Steve

do remind me of each other, kind, decent, giving, generous and respectful. Gosh,

thanks. Goes to show you, always a silver lining in every cloud.

> Now questions are being raised to me, by Steve, that I can not

completely nor fairly answer for Mark.

>

>

-- I raised those questions in response to the HMD study, .

I assume you are referring to my questioning why Mark seemed so pro-

cilantro when he was promoting a study that found cilantro on its onw

was dangerous.

I don't see why you can't answer them as you must have a good

understanding of Mark's agenda

Steve

=======================================================

[Guest guest]

There's nothing wrong with wanting more info about Cilantro and its role in

detoxification and chelation. This post from Steve only serves to try to

discount Mark, and Dr. . and possibly others who support naturopathic

approaches Dr. does need to answer some of the questions asked of him, he

is under the same kind of attack.....and though he's tried, the info is still

not acceptable to this group......Personally I didn't think Mark's posts about

cilantro were anything but an honest attempt to want to learn more and promote

more about a possible natural substance that may be helpful to some people, and

hopefully at a reasonable cost.....like anything else this does not take away

nor diminish the fact that some people might react adversely to it. Some do and

will.

Regarding HMD (Heavy Metal Detox) all here might be interested in reading the

results of the studies done by Dr. Georgiou in Cyprus, using various natural

compounds, and his findings that chlorella, chlorella growth factor, and

cilantro, in the proper combinations, have a remarkable ability to remove heavy

metals, These were undertaken in an attempt to provide cost effective removal to

the underprivileged people of Russia, working in a metal foundry. Certainly

cilantro, plays a heavy role in this. And no adverse effects were noted.

The Discovery of a Unique Natural Heavy Metal Chelator

By Dr. J. Georgiou, Ph.D., N.D., DSc (AM), Cyprus

From the article: http://www.ibcmt.com/2005-06-14-ExploreArticleOnHMD.pdf

Trial of a Number of Natural Substances

During the trials there were a number of natural substances that were found to

chelate certain metals, but not others. There were also dose-dependent

relationships with some of these substances. However, there was only one

compound tested in double blind, placebo controlled trials that was effective in

mobilizing and excreting metals in the urine and faeces for all the metals

tested. The work was commissioned by a large multi-national company who were

interested in undertaking a health impact study to determine the degree of heavy

metal toxicity in a representative sample of their work force. In addition, they

were interested in finding a cost-effective heavy metal chelator that could be

used in that part of the world where the average monthly earnings do not exceed

$150. This proprietary formulation has been filed at the United Kingdom Patent

Office and an international patent is pending.

The compound is called HMD (Heavy Metal Detox) and consists of a homeopathic

homaccord of cell decimated Chlorella, Coriandrum sativum leaf tincture

(Cilantro) and Chlorella Growth Factor. This is a powerful, synergistic

chelating formula, which is very cost effective.

The objective of this article is to introduce the results of the HMD protocols,

as well as touching on the results for the other natural compounds tested, which

is of interest to other researchers in the field of heavy metals.

In this study the effects of mercury removal are promising and continued studies

are being done. " The results from this pilot study for mercury show that the

HMD is eliminating just over 100% mercury in the posturine sample compared to

the pre-test urine. This study with mercury is still on-going with complete

pre-post provocation trials using HMD over 24 hour collection for the pre-test

urine and 12 hours for the post. This is also being correlated to the amount of

amalgam fillings in the mouth. "

Note: the metals tested were: antimony, cadmium, lead, and arsenic, and this

combination of chlorella, chlorella growth factor, and cilantro was shown to be

the combination that eliminated heavy amounts of all metals...... with mercury

removal being tested now.

French RN, LPHA

[ ] Re: Preventive effect of cilantro

> When I hear doctor saying " Cilantro is cheap, effective,

atoxic and

> with my patients always works " a nice feeling arises, one of trust

for him

> and his experience with cilantro.

-- why do you a trust a man who has repeatedly been asked civilly to

explain how he administers cilantro and what doses and dosing

periods are safe, yet has failed to answer these questions?

If Andy refused to explain his protocol you would much less

forgiving.

>It stimulates my interest to explore

> cilantro more and I do have a scheduled writing project about it

since I am

> involved to one degree or another with two companies that have

natural

> chelator forumulas with cilantro.

-- I hope it is more objective than your post on magnesium oil and

it does not quote flakes like Dr Norman Shealy. Also, do you plan on

answering queries re magnesium glycinate? If you post writings on

magnesium on an autism list you really have to discus this form of

magnesium.

>I wish Andy you would keep more of an open

> mind about such things because in the future people will more and

more need

> inexpensive chelators that they can grow on their own or buy

inexpensively.

-- cost and convenience are important, but less important than

safety and efficacy. We need more info on these aspects of cilantro.

There have been many reports on negative efects of cilantro in

mercury toxic people. It is irresponsible to ignore these.

I would also add that it is irresponsbile and callous of you to

ignore the many postings by people who have experienced side-effects

with the Buttar protocol and had better results when switching to

the frequent dose protocol.

Despite your many postings aggressively advocating buttar's protocol

and attacking Andy's, you have not once adressed the many postings

that report better results with the frequent dose schedule.

The kids who were hurt by Buttar's system and benefitted from the

change in dosing schedules are real people. We should be driven by

their needs, not our own egos.

It is wrong to ignore reality in order to push your own barrow. But

it appears that his is precisely whart you intend to do again in

advocating cilantro.

Steve

=======================================================

[Guest guest]

I skimmed through the article on HMD and it looks interesting. But I

was thinking that it might be a little more affordable since it was

supposedly developed to help the poor Russians, but @ $59.95....I

wonder...??? That's about half of the average russian's monthly

salary. I'll wait to see the Hg test results.

-m

> > When I hear doctor saying " Cilantro is cheap, effective,

> atoxic and

> > with my patients always works " a nice feeling arises, one of

trust

> for him

> > and his experience with cilantro.

>

> -- why do you a trust a man who has repeatedly been asked civilly

to

> explain how he administers cilantro and what doses and dosing

> periods are safe, yet has failed to answer these questions?

>

> If Andy refused to explain his protocol you would much less

> forgiving.

>

> >It stimulates my interest to explore

> > cilantro more and I do have a scheduled writing project about

it

> since I am

> > involved to one degree or another with two companies that have

> natural

> > chelator forumulas with cilantro.

> -- I hope it is more objective than your post on magnesium oil

and

> it does not quote flakes like Dr Norman Shealy. Also, do you plan

on

> answering queries re magnesium glycinate? If you post writings on

> magnesium on an autism list you really have to discus this form

of

> magnesium.

>

> >I wish Andy you would keep more of an open

> > mind about such things because in the future people will more

and

> more need

> > inexpensive chelators that they can grow on their own or buy

> inexpensively.

>

> -- cost and convenience are important, but less important than

> safety and efficacy. We need more info on these aspects of

cilantro.

>

> There have been many reports on negative efects of cilantro in

> mercury toxic people. It is irresponsible to ignore these.

>

> I would also add that it is irresponsbile and callous of you to

> ignore the many postings by people who have experienced side-

effects

> with the Buttar protocol and had better results when switching to

> the frequent dose protocol.

>

> Despite your many postings aggressively advocating buttar's

protocol

> and attacking Andy's, you have not once adressed the many

postings

> that report better results with the frequent dose schedule.

>

> The kids who were hurt by Buttar's system and benefitted from the

> change in dosing schedules are real people. We should be driven

by

> their needs, not our own egos.

>

> It is wrong to ignore reality in order to push your own barrow.

But

> it appears that his is precisely whart you intend to do again in

> advocating cilantro.

>

> Steve

>

>

>

>

> =======================================================

>

[Guest guest]

> There's nothing wrong with wanting more info about Cilantro and

its role in detoxification and chelation. This post from Steve only

serves to try to discount Mark, and Dr. . and possibly others

who support naturopathic approaches

When I read Steve's post, I think he is asking for more information

(please see below). What he's trying to discount is blind trust.

Or acceptance of something when there have been a substantial number

of instances of that something causing harm.

>This is also being correlated to the amount of amalgam fillings in

the mouth. "

Am I reading this correctly, or are these people being " chelated "

with amalgams in their mouths still? Could someone clarify this for

me?

>

To address my point above where I stated that I think Steve is

asking for information on a number of things, consider these:

why do you a trust a man who has repeatedly been asked civilly to

explain how he administers cilantro and what doses and dosing

periods are safe, yet has failed to answer these questions?

>

and here: Also, do you plan on answering queries re magnesium

glycinate? If you post writings on magnesium on an autism list you

really have to discus this form of magnesium.

>

and here: cost and convenience are important, but less important

than safety and efficacy. We need more info on these aspects of

cilantro.

and here: I would also add that it is irresponsbile and callous of

you to ignore the many postings by people who have experienced side-

effects with the Buttar protocol and had better results when

switching to the frequent dose protocol.

and here: Despite your many postings aggressively advocating

buttar's protocol and attacking Andy's, you have not once adressed

the many postings that report better results with the frequent dose

schedule.

I really wonder why some people on this board seem to value what

they perceive to be sticking up for the underdog (a complete

misconception in my view) more than finding valid information to

help recover their children. I wonder why Andy takes the time to

answer people's questions about his protocol point by point when he

has done so many, many times in the past--yet we aren't allowed to

ask others to answer these same kinds of questions point by point.

I wonder why after reading thousands of university and high school

papers for the last 15 years and working as a writer and an editor,

I still can't make much sense of what Mark writes, particularly when

he is responding to questions people have, yet many seem to take his

writings as irrefutable (and please, don't anyone bother telling me

mind is closed--I'd like a different explanation if there is one

other than the obvious one that comes to my mind). I wonder why

people whose children have suffered or who have suffered themselves

because of misguided good intentions and deceit and medical

mistreatment would be so unwilling to ask hard questions, or

unwilling to let others do so.

Anita

[Guest guest]

> There's nothing wrong with wanting more info about Cilantro and

its role in detoxification and chelation.

> .....like anything else this does not take away nor diminish the

fact that some people might react adversely to it.

I haven't seen Mark acknowledge this -- and has commented

that is works for ***ALL*** of his patients.

Mark continues to have no comments (that I've seen anyway)

about the issue of dose timing. Yah, we are all like a big

broken record on this issue, but he seems to be oblivious.

I think this people having bad reactions is a pretty important point.

I believe " openness " includes openness to bad information as

well as good. Just my opinion.

I personally use many health ideas and methods that could be

called naturopathic.

good wishes,

Moria

[Guest guest]

> > When I hear doctor saying " Cilantro is cheap, effective,

> atoxic and

> > with my patients always works " a nice feeling arises, one of

trust

> for him

> > and his experience with cilantro.

>

> -- why do you a trust a man who has repeatedly been asked

civilly to

> explain how he administers cilantro and what doses and dosing

> periods are safe, yet has failed to answer these questions?

>

> If Andy refused to explain his protocol you would much less

> forgiving.

>

> >It stimulates my interest to explore

> > cilantro more and I do have a scheduled writing project about

it

> since I am

> > involved to one degree or another with two companies that have

> natural

> > chelator forumulas with cilantro.

> -- I hope it is more objective than your post on magnesium oil

and

> it does not quote flakes like Dr Norman Shealy. Also, do you

plan on

> answering queries re magnesium glycinate? If you post writings

on

> magnesium on an autism list you really have to discus this form

of

> magnesium.

>

> >I wish Andy you would keep more of an open

> > mind about such things because in the future people will more

and

> more need

> > inexpensive chelators that they can grow on their own or buy

> inexpensively.

>

> -- cost and convenience are important, but less important than

> safety and efficacy. We need more info on these aspects of

cilantro.

>

> There have been many reports on negative efects of cilantro in

> mercury toxic people. It is irresponsible to ignore these.

>

> I would also add that it is irresponsbile and callous of you to

> ignore the many postings by people who have experienced side-

effects

> with the Buttar protocol and had better results when switching

to

> the frequent dose protocol.

>

> Despite your many postings aggressively advocating buttar's

protocol

> and attacking Andy's, you have not once adressed the many

postings

> that report better results with the frequent dose schedule.

>

> The kids who were hurt by Buttar's system and benefitted from

the

> change in dosing schedules are real people. We should be driven

by

> their needs, not our own egos.

>

> It is wrong to ignore reality in order to push your own barrow.

But

> it appears that his is precisely whart you intend to do again in

> advocating cilantro.

>

> Steve

>

>

>

>

> =======================================================

>

[Guest guest]

Oh yeah, one more point, ...

--- In , " " <cfrench180@t...>

> wrote:

> > This post from Steve only

> serves to try to discount Mark, and Dr. . and possibly others

> who support naturopathic approaches

-- actually I am trying to discount irresponsible and self-serv ing

quacks. Whether they are using naturopathic approaches or

conventional drugs is not the point.

This is another example of how Mark and use half-truths and

innuendo to avoid dealing with direct questions that discomfort them.

Anyone who has seen a fair number of my posts over the years would

know I don't use drugs on my son. the only drug we have ever used

has been nystation (plus DMSA and DMPS, I guess)

I use a lot of naturopathic treatments and have had very good

results with a herb mix

I have also had good results with Ojibwa Tea, a naturopathic herb

mix that fights yeast and bacteria, builds liver, bile and kidney

function, and is also a general detoxer. This has a strong track

recrod with autistic people

I have told Mark about this product and given him contact details,

but jhe has shown no interest in finding out more about it. I can

only assume that this is because the product is well known and he

would be unable to claim to be a pioneer.

From what I can see Mark is looking for acclaim. he is not intersted

in quietly helping people

Steve

[Guest guest]

<This is another example of how Mark and use half-truths and

innuendo to avoid dealing with direct questions that discomfort them.>

I can't believe you are allowed to get away with this kind of stirring of the

pot, Steve.

I will only speak for myself here, as you have directed your comments to me and

included me in your assumptions.

First of all, when have you ever asked ME a question that I have not answered?

I rarely post anything here. The times I have, I have posted honest information

.. In the past I have posted about the dangers of antipsychotic drugs, some

info about clay with references, about Codex and today about the study being

done by Dr. Georgiou. All referenced and I'm sorry that you so vehemently

object to my wording of support for Mark and Dr. today, but I really take

offense at your innuendo here and your name calling and including me in it. It

is not Mark starting this once again, it is you. He answered your question

about magnesium glycinate.....you didn't see it... And from what I saw about

it, its one of the better forms of magnesium, showing better absorption into the

body......over the short term...but with long term use there have been problems

associated with heart arrhythmias developing.

I have no idea what you told him about ojibwa tea...why are you bringing this

up to me?

If you want me to answer any questions about anything at all, I suggest you ask

me directly and I will give you some answer, but to say I avoid answering

because of discomfort is really unjust and uncalled for. What did you ask me

that made me uncomfortable???? I don't recall anything? You don't know me

well enough to make that assumptions about me.

And I have nothing to do with Dr. or why he isn't giving you answers you

want. But I'm interested in cilantro, and how it might be helpful in detox....I

eat a lot of it, and it doesn't bother me in the least...but I thought I said

clearly that bad experiences should not be discounted, ever!

And I use magnesium oil too, and no, I get no financial rewards , am not part of

their program of marketing, but I feel the benefits. And I use spirulina as

well, and have seen tremendous benefits in stabilizing blood sugars, as I am a

diabetic. Something that doesn't come easy for a diabetic to say the very

least!!! And if you think I don't research these all pretty thoroughly on my

own, you are dead wrong.

And to the rest of this group who have made remarks and comments about needing

to know the adverse effects of any substance, I want you to know that that is

the very first thing I look at when considering using anything for myself or for

others. They are not to be discounted by any means, what's good and will work

for one will not work for all, and I'll be the first to say so! But guilt by

association because of shared beliefs in wanting to know about and/or share info

about the use of more natural products to help in chelation and detoxification

or any other condition....and wanting to help the children ...wow, unbelievable,

Steve.

[ ] Re: Preventive effect of cilantro HMD

Oh yeah, one more point, ...

--- In , " " <cfrench180@t...>

> wrote:

> > This post from Steve only

> serves to try to discount Mark, and Dr. . and possibly others

> who support naturopathic approaches

-- actually I am trying to discount irresponsible and self-serv ing

quacks. Whether they are using naturopathic approaches or

conventional drugs is not the point.

This is another example of how Mark and use half-truths and

innuendo to avoid dealing with direct questions that discomfort them.

Anyone who has seen a fair number of my posts over the years would

know I don't use drugs on my son. the only drug we have ever used

has been nystation (plus DMSA and DMPS, I guess)

I use a lot of naturopathic treatments and have had very good

results with a herb mix

I have also had good results with Ojibwa Tea, a naturopathic herb

mix that fights yeast and bacteria, builds liver, bile and kidney

function, and is also a general detoxer. This has a strong track

recrod with autistic people

I have told Mark about this product and given him contact details,

but jhe has shown no interest in finding out more about it. I can

only assume that this is because the product is well known and he

would be unable to claim to be a pioneer.

From what I can see Mark is looking for acclaim. he is not intersted

in quietly helping people

Steve

=======================================================

[Guest guest]

> I will only speak for myself here, as you have directed your

comments to me and included me in your assumptions.

-- I included you becasue you jumped in to answer a question

I asked Mark and said I was trying to stop discussion of naturopathic

treatments

> First of all, when have you ever asked ME a question that I have

not answered?

-- I don't believe I have ever asked you a question. What I said was

you were using misdirection to avoid having Mark answer some serious

questions

>I'm sorry that you so vehemently object to my wording of support for

Mark and Dr. today

-- I objected to your characterisation of my questions. I stand by

that objection

> I have no idea what you told him about ojibwa tea...why are you

bringing this up to me?

-- to answer your point about my objection re naturopathic questions.

That was made very clear

> And I have nothing to do with Dr. or why he isn't giving you

answers you want. But I'm interested in cilantro, and how it might be

helpful in detox....I eat a lot of it, and it doesn't bother me in

the least...but I thought I said clearly that bad experiences should

not be discounted, ever!

-- I didn't object to your comments on cilantro, but to your

characterisation of my questions. go back and read your post.

> And I use magnesium oil too

-- I have said this may be a good product. what i objected to was

that Mark's discussion of it was composed largely of cut-and-paste

grabs from people with a financial stake in promoting it. In

addition, his discussion of other forms of magneisum supplements was

highly slanted and full of half-truths (which I can cite if caled

upon to do so)

>And I use spirulina as well

-- I have also said this may be good for all I know, and I don't

recall mentioning this in my post

> And to the rest of this group who have made remarks and comments

about needing to know the adverse effects of any substance, I want

you to know that that is the very first thing I look at when

considering using anything for myself or for others.

-- Then don't you think it is strange that Dr is unwilling to

provide details of his methods, and that Mark is saying he filled

with trust for him? And don't you think it is strange Mark gets

excited about Dr saying he has never seen side-effects from

cilantro, yet Mark also ignores the numerous case studies of such

side-effects posted on this site?

And when I raise objections over these issues, don't you feel

dishonest characterising these objections as being anti-naturopathic?

Doesn't such an argument fit my description of misdirection, innunedo

and half-truths fairly accurately?

> They are not to be discounted by any means, what's good and will

work for one will not work for all, and I'll be the first to say so!

-- well it's a shame Mark doesn't share this caution, and it's a

shame you feel compelled to attack people raising reasonable

objections to enthusiasm over cilantro.

> But guilt by association because of shared beliefs in wanting to

know about and/or share info about the use of more natural products

to help in chelation and detoxification or any other condition

--we've been over this one

>....and wanting to help the children ...wow, unbelievable, Steve.

-- what is unbelievable is the way Mark has ignored the many posts re

side-effects of the Buttar protocol while aggressively promoting that

protocol and aggressively attacking Andy Cutler's ideas. That is

irresponsible and callous, and you be ashamed of sticking up for this

self-serving charlatan.

Steve

[Guest guest]

but I really take offense at your innuendo here and your name calling

and including me in it.

Pleeeaaaase stop this. If you want to argue take it off the list.

Nell

[Guest guest]

<-- I don't believe I have ever asked you a question. What I said was

you were using misdirection to avoid having Mark answer some serious

questions>

It's just so revealing that you respond to me because I " jumped in " to answer a

question that was posed to Mark, and hold that to more importance than the fact

that the information people were asking to see was given to you. I didn't do

it to distract anyone....but to share the information we had seen and talked

with Dr. Georgiou about, many times. Personally, I thought that was the more

important piece of information in my post. Yet you don't even comment on that.

Good or bad, errors or not, these studies should be known to the autism

community to watch and comment on, to scrutinize and help you be informed.

But you are the one who ignored that jumped on my other comment, which was just

my opinion, and twisted my intent!!

I see now that PJ has made her decision without posting it here, and so it seems

that you have accomplished what you set out to do. Pushed all the right

buttons didn't you? Hope you're proud of this.

I don't see your words posted on the web anywhere but here, like Mark's are

without financial recompense, I might add. Environmental sites, Dr. Gordon's

sites and in his newsletters, Marcela, Shirley's Wellness Cafe, and more coming

every day........Support from Doctors and organizations...including Dr. Boyd

Haley and Dr. Georgiou ...and we get corrections too....so your's is not the

last word after all....and I support his efforts to keep our children out of

harms way, as we learn what harms way is. He has a strong voice, and we should

all be supporting his efforts instead of knocking him down.

We should always hold people accountable for providing good information.....but

I have to point out that when you tried to do that on something he wrote about

the blood brain barrier, you quoted the wrong study altogether......the one we

were looking at was totally different.....so you are not without flaw either,

when it comes to reading papers and references. Your correction was welcomed

though, and taken to heart.

< Then don't you think it is strange that Dr is unwilling to

provide details of his methods, and that Mark is saying he filled

with trust for him? >

Yes, I wish Dr. would provide more details of his methods, or reasons why

he thinks it works for his patients.

No, you have taken that sentence out of context. Mark's full comment said it

motivates him to reasearch it further....he is not telling people to use it

here! " Cilantro is cheap, effective, atoxic and

with my patients always works " a nice feeling arises, one of trust for him

and his experience with cilantro. It stimulates my interest to explore

cilantro more. "

Dr. Georgiou's study showed cilantro by itself did not work in his

study.....important information.....will not be ignored.

<And don't you think it is strange Mark gets

excited about Dr saying he has never seen side-effects from

cilantro, yet Mark also ignores the numerous case studies of such

side-effects posted on this site?>

No, to both.....and I haven't seen him ignore the " numerous " case studies on

this site....in fact, I saw Dr. ask for numbers and don't believe he was

givent them. I wonder what it is about what Dr. is doing to have such

success, or what it is about the people using this that makes a difference.

Please don't forget that Mark is also trying to help people with detoxification

from another third world country....people who don't have money as we do here,

to buy DMSA, DMPS, supplements etc. People who are poor, can't read, do not go

to doctors, or cannot pay the fees. Why wouldn't it be reasonable to look to

answers to what might work for them???? His work is also dedicated to them! And

they don't pay him either. And they can't afford even spirulina, mag oil or

anything else, so it's donated by him to those who might be helped, and without

harm to them. What is wrong with this? It is expensive to do this too, out

of his own pocket. Perhaps we need to see the problems in the world around us

and not just in our little corners! I'ts not all about " you " " me " or " him " for

pete's sake!!! Yet you seem to forget that, and give no credence to this effort.

Hope you never get hit with a hurricane, or financial devestation and need some

of anything to keep on going with your son.....but he would give it to you

anyway!!! He has a heart! But not a big pocketbook. Don't fault him for needing

some funds! It's sad to see people be so judgemental here!

<And when I raise objections over these issues, don't you feel

dishonest characterising these objections as being anti-naturopathic?>

No, I do not feel dishonest, not in the least bit....I feel sadness for your

lack of understanding about what we are doing and why. and angry!

<Doesn't such an argument fit my description of misdirection, innunedo

and half-truths fairly accurately?

NO, not in the least bit, not to my eyes.

And if PJ wants to kick me off this group too, so be it. Hope I didn't miss

answering any of your important questions. And hope no one will think less of me

for venting my anger here.

I do not apologize for being angry.

[ ] Re: Preventive effect of cilantro HMD

> I will only speak for myself here, as you have directed your

comments to me and included me in your assumptions.

-- I included you becasue you jumped in to answer a question

I asked Mark and said I was trying to stop discussion of naturopathic

treatments

> First of all, when have you ever asked ME a question that I have

not answered?

-- I don't believe I have ever asked you a question. What I said was

you were using misdirection to avoid having Mark answer some serious

questions

>I'm sorry that you so vehemently object to my wording of support for

Mark and Dr. today

-- I objected to your characterisation of my questions. I stand by

that objection

> I have no idea what you told him about ojibwa tea...why are you

bringing this up to me?

-- to answer your point about my objection re naturopathic questions.

That was made very clear

> And I have nothing to do with Dr. or why he isn't giving you

answers you want. But I'm interested in cilantro, and how it might be

helpful in detox....I eat a lot of it, and it doesn't bother me in

the least...but I thought I said clearly that bad experiences should

not be discounted, ever!

-- I didn't object to your comments on cilantro, but to your

characterisation of my questions. go back and read your post.

> And I use magnesium oil too

-- I have said this may be a good product. what i objected to was

that Mark's discussion of it was composed largely of cut-and-paste

grabs from people with a financial stake in promoting it. In

addition, his discussion of other forms of magneisum supplements was

highly slanted and full of half-truths (which I can cite if caled

upon to do so)

>And I use spirulina as well

-- I have also said this may be good for all I know, and I don't

recall mentioning this in my post

> And to the rest of this group who have made remarks and comments

about needing to know the adverse effects of any substance, I want

you to know that that is the very first thing I look at when

considering using anything for myself or for others.

-- Then don't you think it is strange that Dr is unwilling to

provide details of his methods, and that Mark is saying he filled

with trust for him? And don't you think it is strange Mark gets

excited about Dr saying he has never seen side-effects from

cilantro, yet Mark also ignores the numerous case studies of such

side-effects posted on this site?

And when I raise objections over these issues, don't you feel

dishonest characterising these objections as being anti-naturopathic?

Doesn't such an argument fit my description of misdirection, innunedo

and half-truths fairly accurately?

> They are not to be discounted by any means, what's good and will

work for one will not work for all, and I'll be the first to say so!

-- well it's a shame Mark doesn't share this caution, and it's a

shame you feel compelled to attack people raising reasonable

objections to enthusiasm over cilantro.

> But guilt by association because of shared beliefs in wanting to

know about and/or share info about the use of more natural products

to help in chelation and detoxification or any other condition

--we've been over this one

>....and wanting to help the children ...wow, unbelievable, Steve.

-- what is unbelievable is the way Mark has ignored the many posts re

side-effects of the Buttar protocol while aggressively promoting that

protocol and aggressively attacking Andy Cutler's ideas. That is

irresponsible and callous, and you be ashamed of sticking up for this

self-serving charlatan.

Steve

=======================================================

[Guest guest]

Here's a thought: we're on an autism board. Many older children/adults

with autism frequent autism boards. What's the main characteristic of

autism: lack of social skills. This means there's a good chance at

least some of the people posting here do not understand social

protocols and tend to " shoot straight from the hip " -- those of you

with autism, that means just saying what you think, not knowing it

might offend others. There's also a good chance that many family

members who post here also have some of those tendancies, if not

undxed cases themselves.

Debi

[Guest guest]

>>There's nothing wrong with wanting more info about Cilantro and its role in

detoxification and chelation.

Sorry to quote . I really don't know who she is and I really have not

followed this particular thread, so there is no intent at all to pick on anyone

in particular. I read some of this thread today but not all of it and I don't

intend to read much more of it because I am not seeing much information about

cilantro. I pulled her comment out only to say, coincidentally, I have asked

about cilantro on this list before and while I had to clarify carefully what my

interest was because the initial reaction was " just don't do it " , once I made

myself clear, I got very good answers and appologies for the misunderstanding.

Also coincidentally, I have spoken at some length in a different thread the last

few days about my personal experiences with cilantro. NO ONE has hassled me.

In fact, people have been rather gracious. Which makes me feel pretty strongly

that simply " wanting more info about Cilantro and its role in detoxification and

chelation " is not a problem on this list.

And if you are interested in more info about cilantro, you can read an

accounting of some of my experiences with using cilantro for the last 16 months

in a thread titled " NO cilantro. Digest Number 6929 " and starting with this

post: /message/149302 And

this post has most of the links to my other posts on the topic:

/message/149256

HTH,

Michele in California

calif.michele@...

webmaster@...

Visit Michele's World! of (Twice) Exceptional Homeschooling

http://www.califmichele.com

" Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding. " --

Albert Einstein

[Guest guest]

" this post from Steve

only serves to try to discount Mark, and Dr. . and possibly

others who support naturopathic approaches "

I had every right to respond to this misdirection and innuendo.

>I didn't do it to distract anyone....

-- whatever your motive, you made a statement that I had a right to

correct

>but to share the information we had seen and talked with Dr.

Georgiou about, many times. Personally, I thought that was the more

important piece of information in my post.

-- Perhaps it was. I am at a conference at the moment and have not

had the time to read it.Hopefully Dr Georgioou has something to say

about dosing schedules. I will print off a copy of your PDF to read

on the train.

> Good or bad, errors or not, these studies should be known to the

autism community to watch and comment on, to scrutinize and help you

be informed.

-- of course they should, but you have to give people time to

digest them

> But you are the one who ignored that jumped on my other comment,

which was just my opinion, and twisted my intent!!

-- I did not have time to respond to everything. I had the right to

defend myself and I did not twist your intent. What you said was

wrong and i showed it was wrong. Stop whining about that

> I see now that PJ has made her decision without posting it here,

and so it seems that you have accomplished what you set out to do.

Pushed all the right buttons didn't you? Hope you're proud of

this.

-- Mark has had many warnings and has had run-ins with many people

other than me. In addition, he has been thrown off other lists. Wake

up, .

> I don't see your words posted on the web anywhere but here, like

Mark's are without financial recompense, I might add.

Environmental sites, Dr. Gordon's sites and in his newsletters,

Marcela, Shirley's Wellness Cafe, and more coming every day........

-- it's not hard to get your words all over the net if you have a

lot of time on your hands and are willing to lie about your

qualifications. It's a shame his writings are so bad.

>and I support his efforts to keep our children out of harms way, as

we learn what harms way is. He has a strong voice, and we should all

be supporting his efforts instead of knocking him down.

-- a strong mid would be nice too, and a healthy ego. And what

productive efforts has he made to keep kids out of harm's way? I

have seen next to no useful advice from Mark on this list.

> We should always hold people accountable for providing good

information.....but I have to point out that when you tried to do

that on something he wrote about the blood brain barrier, you quoted

the wrong study altogether......

-- I quoted the study and authors he cited. the words from the

abstract were even the same. mark is lying to you, . If I got

this wrong, it would have come out at the time. Mark admitted he was

wrong. This is getting very, very silly

> No, you have taken that sentence out of context. Mark's full

comment said it motivates him to reasearch it further....he is not

telling people to use it here! " Cilantro is cheap, effective,

atoxic and

> with my patients always works " a nice feeling arises, one of trust

for him

> and his experience with cilantro. It stimulates my interest to

explore

> cilantro more. "

-- I said I was wrong to be trusting and I was worried that next he

would be advocating cilantro. I did not say he was currently

advcoating cilantro

> Dr. Georgiou's study showed cilantro by itself did not work in his

study.....important information.....will not be ignored.

-- so is lying now? Why was mark filled with trust? and what

about all the abstracts he and were citing? maybe Andy and

Moria were right? Maybe Mark's aggressive attacks earlier this year

on people warning about cilantro were not only rude but unjustified?

> No, to both.....and I haven't seen him ignore the " numerous " case

studies on this site....in fact, I saw Dr. ask for numbers and

don't believe he was givent them.

-- you're not looking. Search onibasu. Mark calls you his research

asistant; start doing your job. About 10 people have posted here

mentioning bad effects of cilantro. One person has reported positive

experiences

> I wonder what it is about what Dr. is doing to have such

success, or what it is about the people using this that makes a

difference.

-- it would be nice if he would tell us

> Please don't forget that Mark is also trying to help people with

detoxification from another third world country....people who don't

have money as we do here, to buy DMSA, DMPS, supplements etc. People

who are poor, can't read, do not go to doctors, or cannot pay the

fees. Why wouldn't it be reasonable to look to answers to what

might work for them????

-- yes it would. it would also be nice if we could have reasoned

discusion without Mark's tantrums and invective, and it would be

good if people contributing to these discussions were prepared to

explain themselves

>He has a heart! But not a big pocketbook. Don't fault him for

needing some funds! It's sad to see people be so judgemental here!

-- i faulted him for putting up misleading info on magnesium in the

same post as offering a magnesum product for sale. it was fair

criticism. He made several misleading statements that I am happy to

cite if you deamnd a response a response on this issue.

>Hope I didn't miss answering any of your important questions. And

hope no one will think less of me for venting my anger here.

-- you did actually. So I'll repeat them:

1. don't you think it is strange that Dr is unwilling to

provide details of his methods, and that Mark is saying he filled

with trust for him? And don't you think it is strange Mark gets

excited about Dr saying he has never seen side-effects from

cilantro, yet Mark also ignores the numerous case studies of such

side-effects posted on this site?

2. what is unbelievable is the way Mark has ignored the many posts re

side-effects of the Buttar protocol while aggressively promoting that

protocol and aggressively attacking Andy Cutler's ideas. That is

irresponsible and callous

and I'll add a third one too:

3. How is it that someone who a few months ago

was asking newbie questions about magnesium, who can't read medical

abstracts properly, and had no real understanding of the nature of

the blood brain barrier can promote himself as a natural therapist?

What exactly did Mark's training involve and does it have any

relevance to the treatment of autism? Why was he promoting a

chelation protocol that he had no personal experience with, either

as a patient, practitioner or parent? And why is he not honest about

the fact that he has had no experience in treating autistic kids?

You and Mark have avoided these key issues while nitpicking around

the edges. this is exactly what I mean about dishonesty and

misdirection. this is the kind of behavior that has seen him throwen

off several lists

Sincerely

Steve

[Guest guest]

By the way.. my son has been taking cilantro for over 30 days now and is

making huge gains..

Just wanted to let you all know.

Tara

_____

From: [mailto: ]

On Behalf Of

Sent: Wednesday, September 07, 2005 3:31 PM

Subject: Re: [ ] Re: Preventive effect of cilantro HMD

<-- I don't believe I have ever asked you a question. What I said was

you were using misdirection to avoid having Mark answer some serious

questions>

It's just so revealing that you respond to me because I " jumped in " to

answer a question that was posed to Mark, and hold that to more importance

than the fact that the information people were asking to see was given to

you. I didn't do it to distract anyone....but to share the information

we had seen and talked with Dr. Georgiou about, many times. Personally, I

thought that was the more important piece of information in my post. Yet

you don't even comment on that. Good or bad, errors or not, these studies

should be known to the autism community to watch and comment on, to

scrutinize and help you be informed. But you are the one who ignored

that jumped on my other comment, which was just my opinion, and twisted my

intent!!

I see now that PJ has made her decision without posting it here, and so it

seems that you have accomplished what you set out to do. Pushed all the

right buttons didn't you? Hope you're proud of this.

I don't see your words posted on the web anywhere but here, like Mark's are

without financial recompense, I might add. Environmental sites, Dr.

Gordon's sites and in his newsletters, Marcela, Shirley's Wellness Cafe, and

more coming every day........Support from Doctors and

organizations...including Dr. Boyd Haley and Dr. Georgiou ...and we get

corrections too....so your's is not the last word after all....and I support

his efforts to keep our children out of harms way, as we learn what harms

way is. He has a strong voice, and we should all be supporting his efforts

instead of knocking him down.

We should always hold people accountable for providing good

information.....but I have to point out that when you tried to do that on

something he wrote about the blood brain barrier, you quoted the wrong study

altogether......the one we were looking at was totally different.....so you

are not without flaw either, when it comes to reading papers and references.

Your correction was welcomed though, and taken to heart.

< Then don't you think it is strange that Dr is unwilling to

provide details of his methods, and that Mark is saying he filled

with trust for him? >

Yes, I wish Dr. would provide more details of his methods, or reasons

why he thinks it works for his patients.

No, you have taken that sentence out of context. Mark's full comment said

it motivates him to reasearch it further....he is not telling people to use

it here! " Cilantro is cheap, effective, atoxic and

with my patients always works " a nice feeling arises, one of trust for him

and his experience with cilantro. It stimulates my interest to explore

cilantro more. "

Dr. Georgiou's study showed cilantro by itself did not work in his

study.....important information.....will not be ignored.

<And don't you think it is strange Mark gets

excited about Dr saying he has never seen side-effects from

cilantro, yet Mark also ignores the numerous case studies of such

side-effects posted on this site?>

No, to both.....and I haven't seen him ignore the " numerous " case studies on

this site....in fact, I saw Dr. ask for numbers and don't believe he

was givent them. I wonder what it is about what Dr. is doing to have

such success, or what it is about the people using this that makes a

difference. Please don't forget that Mark is also trying to help people

with detoxification from another third world country....people who don't

have money as we do here, to buy DMSA, DMPS, supplements etc. People who are

poor, can't read, do not go to doctors, or cannot pay the fees. Why

wouldn't it be reasonable to look to answers to what might work for them????

His work is also dedicated to them! And they don't pay him either. And

they can't afford even spirulina, mag oil or anything else, so it's donated

by him to those who might be helped, and without harm to them. What is

wrong with this? It is expensive to do this too, out of his own pocket.

Perhaps we need to see the problems in the world around us and not just in

our little corners! I'ts not all about " you " " me " or " him " for pete's

sake!!! Yet you seem to forget that, and give no credence to this effort.

Hope you never get hit with a hurricane, or financial devestation and need

some of anything to keep on going with your son.....but he would give it to

you anyway!!! He has a heart! But not a big pocketbook. Don't fault him for

needing some funds! It's sad to see people be so judgemental here!

<And when I raise objections over these issues, don't you feel

dishonest characterising these objections as being anti-naturopathic?>

No, I do not feel dishonest, not in the least bit....I feel sadness for your

lack of understanding about what we are doing and why. and angry!

<Doesn't such an argument fit my description of misdirection, innunedo

and half-truths fairly accurately?

NO, not in the least bit, not to my eyes.

And if PJ wants to kick me off this group too, so be it. Hope I didn't miss

answering any of your important questions. And hope no one will think less

of me for venting my anger here.

I do not apologize for being angry.

[ ] Re: Preventive effect of cilantro HMD

> I will only speak for myself here, as you have directed your

comments to me and included me in your assumptions.

-- I included you becasue you jumped in to answer a question

I asked Mark and said I was trying to stop discussion of naturopathic

treatments

> First of all, when have you ever asked ME a question that I have

not answered?

-- I don't believe I have ever asked you a question. What I said was

you were using misdirection to avoid having Mark answer some serious

questions

>I'm sorry that you so vehemently object to my wording of support for

Mark and Dr. today

-- I objected to your characterisation of my questions. I stand by

that objection

> I have no idea what you told him about ojibwa tea...why are you

bringing this up to me?

-- to answer your point about my objection re naturopathic questions.

That was made very clear

> And I have nothing to do with Dr. or why he isn't giving you

answers you want. But I'm interested in cilantro, and how it might be

helpful in detox....I eat a lot of it, and it doesn't bother me in

the least...but I thought I said clearly that bad experiences should

not be discounted, ever!

-- I didn't object to your comments on cilantro, but to your

characterisation of my questions. go back and read your post.

> And I use magnesium oil too

-- I have said this may be a good product. what i objected to was

that Mark's discussion of it was composed largely of cut-and-paste

grabs from people with a financial stake in promoting it. In

addition, his discussion of other forms of magneisum supplements was

highly slanted and full of half-truths (which I can cite if caled

upon to do so)

>And I use spirulina as well

-- I have also said this may be good for all I know, and I don't

recall mentioning this in my post

> And to the rest of this group who have made remarks and comments

about needing to know the adverse effects of any substance, I want

you to know that that is the very first thing I look at when

considering using anything for myself or for others.

-- Then don't you think it is strange that Dr is unwilling to

provide details of his methods, and that Mark is saying he filled

with trust for him? And don't you think it is strange Mark gets

excited about Dr saying he has never seen side-effects from

cilantro, yet Mark also ignores the numerous case studies of such

side-effects posted on this site?

And when I raise objections over these issues, don't you feel

dishonest characterising these objections as being anti-naturopathic?

Doesn't such an argument fit my description of misdirection, innunedo

and half-truths fairly accurately?

> They are not to be discounted by any means, what's good and will

work for one will not work for all, and I'll be the first to say so!

-- well it's a shame Mark doesn't share this caution, and it's a

shame you feel compelled to attack people raising reasonable

objections to enthusiasm over cilantro.

> But guilt by association because of shared beliefs in wanting to

know about and/or share info about the use of more natural products

to help in chelation and detoxification or any other condition

--we've been over this one

>....and wanting to help the children ...wow, unbelievable, Steve.

-- what is unbelievable is the way Mark has ignored the many posts re

side-effects of the Buttar protocol while aggressively promoting that

protocol and aggressively attacking Andy Cutler's ideas. That is

irresponsible and callous, and you be ashamed of sticking up for this

self-serving charlatan.

Steve

=======================================================

[Guest guest]

I don't know if this is a dumb question, but does it taste really bad,

like spicy burn? I'm assuming it's a capsule form? I mean I'm really

iggy to cilantro, lol.

Debi

>

> > I will only speak for myself here, as you have directed your

> comments to me and included me in your assumptions.

> -- I included you becasue you jumped in to answer a question

> I asked Mark and said I was trying to stop discussion of naturopathic

> treatments

>

> > First of all, when have you ever asked ME a question that I have

> not answered?

> -- I don't believe I have ever asked you a question. What I said was

> you were using misdirection to avoid having Mark answer some serious

> questions

>

> >I'm sorry that you so vehemently object to my wording of support for

> Mark and Dr. today

> -- I objected to your characterisation of my questions. I stand by

> that objection

>

> > I have no idea what you told him about ojibwa tea...why are you

> bringing this up to me?

> -- to answer your point about my objection re naturopathic questions.

> That was made very clear

>

> > And I have nothing to do with Dr. or why he isn't giving you

> answers you want. But I'm interested in cilantro, and how it might be

> helpful in detox....I eat a lot of it, and it doesn't bother me in

> the least...but I thought I said clearly that bad experiences should

> not be discounted, ever!

> -- I didn't object to your comments on cilantro, but to your

> characterisation of my questions. go back and read your post.

>

>

> > And I use magnesium oil too

> -- I have said this may be a good product. what i objected to was

> that Mark's discussion of it was composed largely of cut-and-paste

> grabs from people with a financial stake in promoting it. In

> addition, his discussion of other forms of magneisum supplements was

> highly slanted and full of half-truths (which I can cite if caled

> upon to do so)

>

> >And I use spirulina as well

> -- I have also said this may be good for all I know, and I don't

> recall mentioning this in my post

>

>

> > And to the rest of this group who have made remarks and comments

> about needing to know the adverse effects of any substance, I want

> you to know that that is the very first thing I look at when

> considering using anything for myself or for others.

> -- Then don't you think it is strange that Dr is unwilling to

> provide details of his methods, and that Mark is saying he filled

> with trust for him? And don't you think it is strange Mark gets

> excited about Dr saying he has never seen side-effects from

> cilantro, yet Mark also ignores the numerous case studies of such

> side-effects posted on this site?

>

> And when I raise objections over these issues, don't you feel

> dishonest characterising these objections as being anti-naturopathic?

> Doesn't such an argument fit my description of misdirection, innunedo

> and half-truths fairly accurately?

>

> > They are not to be discounted by any means, what's good and will

> work for one will not work for all, and I'll be the first to say so!

> -- well it's a shame Mark doesn't share this caution, and it's a

> shame you feel compelled to attack people raising reasonable

> objections to enthusiasm over cilantro.

>

> > But guilt by association because of shared beliefs in wanting to

> know about and/or share info about the use of more natural products

> to help in chelation and detoxification or any other condition

> --we've been over this one

>

> >....and wanting to help the children ...wow, unbelievable, Steve.

>

> -- what is unbelievable is the way Mark has ignored the many posts re

> side-effects of the Buttar protocol while aggressively promoting that

> protocol and aggressively attacking Andy Cutler's ideas. That is

> irresponsible and callous, and you be ashamed of sticking up for this

> self-serving charlatan.

>

> Steve

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> =======================================================

>

[Guest guest]

> By the way.. my son has been taking cilantro for over 30 days now and is

> making huge gains..

>

>

>

> Just wanted to let you all know.

My friend's serious regression was after a small daily dose for about

3 months. She still hasn't recovered. For me, if I remember

correctly, it was at 6 weeks when it hit me hard.

[Guest guest]

Do you have any metal fillings? Who is your friend.. a child or an adult.

I know of many Hispanic people who have eaten the stuff daily since birth

with no problems.. maybe you are allergic to it .. like some people are

allergic to peanuts. Etc.

We all like this sort of food anyway.. and have always eaten it.. not daily

though.. it is easy and it is working.

Tara

_____

From: [mailto: ]

On Behalf Of lindajaytee

Sent: Wednesday, September 07, 2005 11:01 PM

Subject: [ ] Re: Preventive effect of cilantro HMD

> By the way.. my son has been taking cilantro for over 30 days now and is

> making huge gains..

>

>

>

> Just wanted to let you all know.

My friend's serious regression was after a small daily dose for about

3 months. She still hasn't recovered. For me, if I remember

correctly, it was at 6 weeks when it hit me hard.

=======================================================

[Guest guest]

Are you using any particular system or dosing schedule, Tara? Are you

giving it in conjunction with any other supps or chelators? What form

of cilantro are you using?

Steve

>

> > I will only speak for myself here, as you have directed your

> comments to me and included me in your assumptions.

> -- I included you becasue you jumped in to answer a

question

> I asked Mark and said I was trying to stop discussion of

naturopathic

> treatments

>

> > First of all, when have you ever asked ME a question that I

have

> not answered?

> -- I don't believe I have ever asked you a question. What I said

was

> you were using misdirection to avoid having Mark answer some

serious

> questions

>

> >I'm sorry that you so vehemently object to my wording of support

for

> Mark and Dr. today

> -- I objected to your characterisation of my questions. I stand

by

> that objection

>

> > I have no idea what you told him about ojibwa tea...why are

you

> bringing this up to me?

> -- to answer your point about my objection re naturopathic

questions.

> That was made very clear

>

> > And I have nothing to do with Dr. or why he isn't giving

you

> answers you want. But I'm interested in cilantro, and how it

might be

> helpful in detox....I eat a lot of it, and it doesn't bother me

in

> the least...but I thought I said clearly that bad experiences

should

> not be discounted, ever!

> -- I didn't object to your comments on cilantro, but to your

> characterisation of my questions. go back and read your post.

>

>

> > And I use magnesium oil too

> -- I have said this may be a good product. what i objected to was

> that Mark's discussion of it was composed largely of cut-and-

paste

> grabs from people with a financial stake in promoting it. In

> addition, his discussion of other forms of magneisum supplements

was

> highly slanted and full of half-truths (which I can cite if caled

> upon to do so)

>

> >And I use spirulina as well

> -- I have also said this may be good for all I know, and I don't

> recall mentioning this in my post

>

>

> > And to the rest of this group who have made remarks and

comments

> about needing to know the adverse effects of any substance, I

want

> you to know that that is the very first thing I look at when

> considering using anything for myself or for others.

> -- Then don't you think it is strange that Dr is unwilling

to

> provide details of his methods, and that Mark is saying he filled

> with trust for him? And don't you think it is strange Mark gets

> excited about Dr saying he has never seen side-effects from

> cilantro, yet Mark also ignores the numerous case studies of such

> side-effects posted on this site?

>

> And when I raise objections over these issues, don't you feel

> dishonest characterising these objections as being anti-

naturopathic?

> Doesn't such an argument fit my description of misdirection,

innunedo

> and half-truths fairly accurately?

>

> > They are not to be discounted by any means, what's good and

will

> work for one will not work for all, and I'll be the first to say

so!

> -- well it's a shame Mark doesn't share this caution, and it's a

> shame you feel compelled to attack people raising reasonable

> objections to enthusiasm over cilantro.

>

> > But guilt by association because of shared beliefs in wanting

to

> know about and/or share info about the use of more natural

products

> to help in chelation and detoxification or any other condition

> --we've been over this one

>

> >....and wanting to help the children ...wow, unbelievable,

Steve.

>

> -- what is unbelievable is the way Mark has ignored the many

posts re

> side-effects of the Buttar protocol while aggressively promoting

that

> protocol and aggressively attacking Andy Cutler's ideas. That is

> irresponsible and callous, and you be ashamed of sticking up for

this

> self-serving charlatan.

>

> Steve

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> =======================================================

>

[Guest guest]

I have a strong adversion to cilantro. I can't even stand the smell

of it, let alone be able to eat it. Funny thing.....the things I'm

most allergic to, I can't stand the taste of or the smell.

a J

> We all like this sort of food anyway.. and have always eaten it..

not daily though.. it is easy and it is working.

[Guest guest]

Yes, I made a decision, and I stand by it.

a J

--- In , " " <cfrench180@t...>

>I see now that PJ has made her decision without posting it here

[Guest guest]

I see you have still not made a formal announcement of your banning of Mark from

this group......as you did to him privately. It is beyond me why not...and

seems very cruel to say the least, that you allow all of this posting to

continue about him, the poll to be up on your site, when your decision is made.

I checked all the messages you posted in the last few days since this became an

issue again, and the closest I could see of your announcing anything at all is

one comment you made to Mark himself, not to this group. It says: " I think it

is time for you to find a new

group. " You " think " it is time? seems to give more of an option , is not a

clear announcement of banning. Why aren't you being clear to this group as

a whole???

" I have decided to ban Mark from this group, and have informed him by private

email of this decision. " would be much more clear and honest and perhaps stop

all of this continuous commenting on him.

It is not at all fair to have restricted someone's communications, so they can't

respond to any of these other posts, concerns, questions or accusations.....yet

allows all of these others to continue. I find it deplorable.

Now questions are being raised to me, by Steve, that I can not completely nor

fairly answer for Mark.

[ ] Re: Preventive effect of cilantro HMD

Yes, I made a decision, and I stand by it.

a J

--- In , " " <cfrench180@t...>

>I see now that PJ has made her decision without posting it here

=======================================================

[Guest guest]

Fair enough. I have decided to ban Mark Sircus from this group

based on the following; Over the course of 2 years I have found his

posts to be disruptive, based on the volume of complaints on the

list, and via private e-mail from list members.

This is the policy: On-going disruptive behavior on the list will

not be tolerated. Disruptive behavior includes (but is not limited

to): repeated frequent advertising postings, stating contentious

opinions but not engaging in dialog about them, and not responding

to concerns raised by other members about list behavior. On-going

disruptive behavior is apparent from a general consensus of the

public postings of complaint by group members.

Please notice that the general idea is that while disagreements are

expected, persistent disruptiveness is not the same thing as

disagreeing.

Debate that moves ideas forward can be useful. Repeating the same

points and not responding to counter evidence is NOT useful,

especially when done in quantity, etc.

So, it is official, and continuing conversations regarding Mark

should not be necessary.

I will also remove the poll, in good faith. Let it be known....I

did not create the poll. Anyone can do this.

a J

--- In , " " <cfrench180@t...>

> " I have decided to ban Mark from this group, and have informed him

by private email of this decision. " would be much more clear and

honest and perhaps stop all of this continuous commenting on him.