Re: DMSA Chelation/Bilirubin Question - Dagmar, et. al.

[Guest guest]

Dagmar and . There are some mis-understandings here which, if

cleared up might help you to confront both the lead and mercury.

, first of all, there is no need to chelate for lead _before_

mercury. Actually, lead, which resides in the bones, will probably take

some 3 years or more to come out. You want to be working on mercury at

the _same time_.

Secondly, the protocol for lead chelation is to use DMSA for _one_ round

per month. The reason for this is that lead and mercury act quite

differently. Mercury resides in soft tissues. Lead resides in the

bones. So, if you chelate with DMSA for 3 days, removing the lead that

happens to be in the blood-stream, then lead will slowly leach out from

the bones over the period of the next few weeks. Then you do another

short round.

So, my protocol is that my first round of the month is DMSA for 3 days.

Then the rest of the month is ALA. I've done this once so far, and I

noticed that after my DMSA round, my following ALA round was far easier.

My suspicion is that when the ALA pulls mercury into the bloodstream

(where it usually isn't), the mercury in combination with the lead is

far more toxic and produces far more side effects than the mercury on

it's own. So, when I did a small amount of chelation for lead, then

(I'm guessing) it made the subsequent mercury chelation easier.

The reason I've chosen to do it this way, even thought I could use DMSA

for mercury during the rest of the month, is that I don't want to have

to keep going to a doctor to test for neutrophils. I recently asked

Andy on this list and he said that if you're only doing it three days a

month, it's likely you could get away with not testing. He told me I

probably shouldn't worry unless I start having some kind of fungal

growths developing on the skin. (He may have said more ... check the

list, the subject was " Quick question on DMSA and neutrophils " or

something similar.)

Dave.

------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 19:00:59 -0000

From: " Dagmar " <dagmarjahr@...>

Subject: Re: DMSA Chelation/Bilirubin Question

With my daughter I stopped chelating with DMSA due to bilirubin and

another liver value going up and neutrophils going down. I now chelate

her with ALA only. She is high in lead too. I am just hoping, that ALA

will reduce the lead too (I think the jury is still out on this). If she

still has lead once the mercury is sorted out, I might try her on EDTA.

DMSA also seems to cause her nausea in the evenings (a problem which

seems to occur at any dose now and last for about 4 months after the

DMSA has been dicontinued). The first 9 months on DMSA she was coping

fine.

Dagmar.

------------------------

Date: Sat, 01 Jan 2005 03:46:42 -0000

From: " moriamerri " <moriam@...>

Subject: Re: DMSA Chelation/Bilirubin Question

>

> Hello, I'm hoping someone on this list can give me some info...

> My son, 11 yo, Asperger's syndrome, is chelating with DMSA and has

> been since around March/April?

>

> On his blood chem panel, it shows high range bilirubin.

> Last run showed 1.7 with normal range being .2 - 1.5

>

> While getting his allergy shot this morning, I saw the paperwork

> that had just returned to local Dr. (not the DAN Dr. that I

discuss

> this with) from last blood draw, and I see this time bilirubin

went

> up to 2.5.

>

> We will be having either a conference call or visit to discuss

this

> test after all other tests come back within 10 days or so.

>

> All I know is this shows maybe some irritation to the liver, more

> than likely from the DMSA. I am clueless, is this just simply

> irritation or damage that can not be repaired?

I do not know " how bad " those numbers are, but I can tell you

that the liver is well known as an organ that CAN heal and

be repaired. It is remarkable in this, and this is often

remarked upon about the liver. Good thing, too, since it

does zillions of essential and needed functions.

Now, I am not saying that livers " automatically " regererate,

just that they can do so.

>

> I am considering taking my son off of chelation for a while, maybe

> permanently because I'm scared of what's happening to his liver

> here.

Stopping DMSA for a while seems like a reasonable thing to consider,

to me. ALA is NOT stressful to the liver. Mercury detox and

mercury poisoning are both stressful to the liver.

>

> He also has leaky gut, and I'm afraid this DMSA could keep the

> healing progress on his gut too!

>

> How serious is this elevated bilirubin number? Just more info, my

> son has had a few reports (urine toxic metals) that have been free

> of mercury, but the lead keeps coming out. I'm told we can't

begin

> the ALA until lead is cleared as we don't want metals going into

the

> brain. I can agree with that....

I don't think it works that way with mercury. Not sure about

lead.

>

> I need to get my " ducks in a row " while speaking to the DAN Dr.

> about this next batch of blood reports, and I want to have a good

> feeling if I am taking my son off the DMSA....I may want to give

the

> transdermal DMPS a try, but when mentioning this to the DAN Dr.,

he

> says this isn't available and doesn't have enough evidence, etc

> since it is so new.

It seems to be available (in spite of some comments earlier

about distribution being halted) ?

You might ask him about oral DMPS, which has a longer history

of use. But he may feel the same reluctance.

> But I wonder what the positives might be to use

> transdermal when we are looking at liver irritation....

> anyone out there been through this that can share with me? Maybe

> I'm just getting overly concerned about nothing.

Hard for me to know since I don't know HOW high the numbers you

have are. Personally I WOULD be concerned because of the numbers

going up. I am in favor of using concern constructively (that

is, to do something about the issue) -- so I would suggest that

you work on liver support, and then possibly retest in a few

months or several months.

good wishes,

Moria

> Thank you in advance to anyone with info!

>

--------------------------------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

Moria, Dave, Dagmar, etc:

Thank you for your help on this issue. I trust the advice of

parents who've been in my shoes, or at least shoes like mine. ha-ha

I don't feel that my child's health is in the best interest of the

Dr. (I hope I don't offend anyone on this list).

The thing that concerned me when the number went up further this

time is that I did put him on a liver support supplement containing

Artichoke leaf extract and sarsaparilla root extract. I gave him

half of an adult dose, and I was hoping that maybe this would hold

his bilirubin level constant or maybe even go down further while

still being in the high range. He was on this supplement for

probably almost a whole month before this last blood draw. So when

it went up further, I wondered how high it might have been without

any supplementation at all.

Do you have any suggestions of how I can best take care of the

liver?

Well, I can't play with my son's liver like this....he hates to give

blood so badly, that for this draw his arm kept on shaking before

they had even begun the procedure, and this time they made him lay

down to give blood as they could see how stressed he was.

And someone had mentioned to take care of mercury before lead.

It seems that he was done giving mercury in his urine metals

testing. I was hoping that when we had 2 clean urine dumps (clean

of mercury) we could begin the ALA part. But NO, we couldn't begin

it because he was still dumping lead out. A little tin and arsenic

coming out too, but elevated in lead. I was glad to see the mercury

stop coming out. I guess just clear in tissues now, but not the

brain.

For you who told me that the lead is stored in the bones, I did not

know that. Very interesting....that explains why the Dr. said we'd

be doing this for a few years yet.

I'm leaning very strongly at this point to go off of DMSA until I

can feel better about this. I realize you don't want lead levels in

your body, but I also don't want to damage the liver at 11. What a

toss up? I'm one confused mom! But I can't take the chance! I

will need to further educate myself, someway!

Thanks for all of your replies!

>

> Hard for me to know since I don't know HOW high the numbers you

> have are. Personally I WOULD be concerned because of the numbers

> going up. I am in favor of using concern constructively (that

> is, to do something about the issue) -- so I would suggest that

> you work on liver support, and then possibly retest in a few

> months or several months.

>

> good wishes,

> Moria

>

[Guest guest]

You can chelate lead with EDTA as well. You would have to ask Andy for details.

I am considering to do this.

Dagmar.

[ ] Re: DMSA Chelation/Bilirubin Question - Dagmar,

et. al.

Moria, Dave, Dagmar, etc:

Thank you for your help on this issue. I trust the advice of

parents who've been in my shoes, or at least shoes like mine. ha-ha

I don't feel that my child's health is in the best interest of the

Dr. (I hope I don't offend anyone on this list).

The thing that concerned me when the number went up further this

time is that I did put him on a liver support supplement containing

Artichoke leaf extract and sarsaparilla root extract. I gave him

half of an adult dose, and I was hoping that maybe this would hold

his bilirubin level constant or maybe even go down further while

still being in the high range. He was on this supplement for

probably almost a whole month before this last blood draw. So when

it went up further, I wondered how high it might have been without

any supplementation at all.

Do you have any suggestions of how I can best take care of the

liver?

Well, I can't play with my son's liver like this....he hates to give

blood so badly, that for this draw his arm kept on shaking before

they had even begun the procedure, and this time they made him lay

down to give blood as they could see how stressed he was.

And someone had mentioned to take care of mercury before lead.

It seems that he was done giving mercury in his urine metals

testing. I was hoping that when we had 2 clean urine dumps (clean

of mercury) we could begin the ALA part. But NO, we couldn't begin

it because he was still dumping lead out. A little tin and arsenic

coming out too, but elevated in lead. I was glad to see the mercury

stop coming out. I guess just clear in tissues now, but not the

brain.

For you who told me that the lead is stored in the bones, I did not

know that. Very interesting....that explains why the Dr. said we'd

be doing this for a few years yet.

I'm leaning very strongly at this point to go off of DMSA until I

can feel better about this. I realize you don't want lead levels in

your body, but I also don't want to damage the liver at 11. What a

toss up? I'm one confused mom! But I can't take the chance! I

will need to further educate myself, someway!

Thanks for all of your replies!

>

> Hard for me to know since I don't know HOW high the numbers you

> have are. Personally I WOULD be concerned because of the numbers

> going up. I am in favor of using concern constructively (that

> is, to do something about the issue) -- so I would suggest that

> you work on liver support, and then possibly retest in a few

> months or several months.

>

> good wishes,

> Moria

>

=======================================================

[Guest guest]

>

> Moria, Dave, Dagmar, etc:

>

> Thank you for your help on this issue. I trust the advice of

> parents who've been in my shoes, or at least shoes like mine. ha-

ha

> I don't feel that my child's health is in the best interest of the

> Dr. (I hope I don't offend anyone on this list).

(In case you didn't know, I am not a parent, but I do have

comfy shoes....)

>

> The thing that concerned me when the number went up further this

> time is that I did put him on a liver support supplement

containing

> Artichoke leaf extract and sarsaparilla root extract. I gave him

> half of an adult dose, and I was hoping that maybe this would hold

> his bilirubin level constant or maybe even go down further while

> still being in the high range. He was on this supplement for

> probably almost a whole month before this last blood draw. So

when

> it went up further, I wondered how high it might have been without

> any supplementation at all.

I would be concerned about it going up in either case (whether

you were supplementing or not!)

> Do you have any suggestions of how I can best take care of the

> liver?

Goodness, I've REALLY got to make this a webpage, I'm getting

tired of reciting this list (and the caveats that go with it).

Caveats: I don't feel like I'm an expert on this, I'm just listing

the things I know about. There are also some books, but I don't

know which ones are best. Also some suggestions would not be

appropriate for children, and some may be a bad ideas for some

individuals. I'm sure this is no surprise!

Suggestions for liver support:

1. Traditional Chinese Medicine (e.g. accupunture-- if you find

a pediatric accupunturist they can work on using treatment methods

that work with your child, doesn't have to be needles. My

accupunturist uses VERY fine needles with me, for example.)

2. fenugreek seed sprouts (you'll have to make them yourself,

from seed, but it is not hard)

3. low or no use of: alcohol, drugs, hormones (including in

much commercial meat/chicken), pesticides, chemicals....

4. beets (in moderation)

5. artichoke (extract or food)

6. Milk Thistle (recommend as an extract).

7. coffee enemas (see work of Max Gerson) (generally not

appropriate for children)

8. use of ozone gas over the liver (not generally available

to most people. But for anyone who does have a medical ozone

generator, " cupping " over the liver is good).

9. I've heard that massage over the liver area can also be

helpful.

> Well, I can't play with my son's liver like this....he hates to

give

> blood so badly,

I can really relate! I have it too! I avoid it like crazy!

> that for this draw his arm kept on shaking before

> they had even begun the procedure, and this time they made him lay

> down to give blood as they could see how stressed he was.

BTW, I do hear that EMLA cream (did I spell that right?) helps,

I have not tried it (but I should!) It is an Rx topical creme

that you apply beforehand to reduce pain.

>

> And someone had mentioned to take care of mercury before lead.

> It seems that he was done giving mercury in his urine metals

> testing. I was hoping that when we had 2 clean urine dumps (clean

> of mercury) we could begin the ALA part. But NO, we couldn't

begin

> it because he was still dumping lead out.

I think that is not correct. I think you could use ALA.

> A little tin and arsenic

> coming out too, but elevated in lead. I was glad to see the

mercury

> stop coming out. I guess just clear in tissues now, but not the

> brain.

>

> For you who told me that the lead is stored in the bones, I did

not

> know that. Very interesting....that explains why the Dr. said

we'd

> be doing this for a few years yet.

Yes, some comes out, then (slowly) the body will move some more

out of the bones, and you can clear that out--- it is just a

slower process. You don't need to keep using DMSA every week

though, you could chelate with DMSA once a month after a while

and keep on that for another 1 or 1.5 or 2 years.

>

> I'm leaning very strongly at this point to go off of DMSA until I

> can feel better about this.

I'm with you!

> I realize you don't want lead levels in

> your body, but I also don't want to damage the liver at 11. What

a

> toss up? I'm one confused mom! But I can't take the chance! I

> will need to further educate myself, someway!

Look for books about liver health. I have a couple I have only

skimmed. And " Milk Thistle: the liver herb " (which is a booklet

really, not a book) is sorta kinda interesting (but narrow).

Hobbs' book " Foundations of Health " (about digestion) covers

liver stuff somewhat.

good wishes,

Moria