being clear about dosages // was: getting poisoned by chelation//

[Guest guest]

>

> > Please note that dosages listed are ORAL dosages, and

> would not apply to TD (since I don't think anyone knows

> how the absorbtion rate compares between oral and TD.)

> >

> > good wishes,

> > Moria

>

> Let's be clear,

I was being very clear, thanks. My post was about the

dosage recommendations of Andy, as listed here:

http://home.earthlink.net/~moriam/Andy_dose_sched.html

These recommendations are for ORAL amounts of chelation

agents.

This file is the best (and only actually) summary I'm

aware of on the subject. It has been published on the

web for about 3 years, with only minor updates in that

time (for clarity and completeness).

> because our kids tend to have so much gut issues, we

> don't know about hte absorption rate, if it's steady, etc, for any

of

> the oral stuff.

There is certainly a whole lot more known about oral

absorption than about transdermal. What I have read is

that DMPS is not absorbed transdermally -- and this is

where Buttar has said he has some special method so that

it is absorbed, in order to overcome this problem.

This is a good thing, but since it is new the dosages

would be different (than other ineffective uses of

transdermal DMPS) and unknown/new.

The FREQUENCY of dosing (every 8 hours) is what is tied

to the issue of " steady " . It is important to keep a fairly

steady level IN THE BLOODSTREAM. Steady doesn't refer to

oral absorption rate, and I didn't say it did. If you

want " not steady " in the bloodstream, every other day

application (oral or transdermal) will certainly get you that.

> You write as though there's something definitive for

> autistic kids and not for TD-DMPS.

Please reread my post, what I say is that Andy's recommendations

are for ORAL DMPS. This is true, and the dose amounts do

NOT apply for transdermal, as I said.

What I said is perfectly accurate, and you may verify it

with Andy any time you wish.

It is also true that these dosage recommendations have

been used by MANY parents with ASD kids, as well as many chelating

adults, over a period of years. While this method and

dosing is not foolproof, and not without risks, it has

been used by many people over several years.

Also, I believe DMPS dosage has been studied -- in

oral application (but not in transdermal, since it

generally doesn't get absorbed).

> In fact, there's nothing

> definitive about the absorption rate for kids with gut problems. I

> don't beleive the absorption rate of these has been tested on

> autistic kids with gut problems. We do know that these agents can

be

> hard on the gut.

I believe that is more true of ALA, and MAYBE DMSA, than DMPS.

But I'll leave the details on that to others who know more

about the differences than I do.

Of course, mercury is also hard on the gut, regardless of

whether you use TD or oral chelation.

By the way, Rose, you didn't answer the questions which

I asked you here:

/message/126761

Perhaps you didn't see it?

Moria

> Best, Rose

[Guest guest]

Moria,

what I was wanting to be clear about, and I guess I gave too rushed a

response, is that we don't know what the absorption rate or steady

amount issue is for gut-damaged kids, so that the certainty about it

can be questioned. If it doesn't get absorbed because of gut

problems, you would not have a steady amount in. My hypothesis is

that kids with gut problems might be absorbing the oral dosages

differently or inadequately, accounting for some of the problems or

lack of results with that form of chelation for some of our kids.

Don't know, but I do know that my faith in the value of steady state

has been challenged. My son did not improve on DMSA/ALA chelation.

But in 4 months of TD-DMPS he has had significant positives,

including physical signs, something you can't attribute to biases

or " placebo " effect. Yes, numbers of kids have improved with

DMSA/ALA. We believed fervently in the 4 hour dosage issue, always

spread the word about it to others not yet converted, never missed a

dose, set alarm clocks etc. So... how to account for more

improvements on TD-DMPS without that steady state...it's hmmmmmm time

for us. If it were just my son, I'd say it was a fluke....

No, I didn't see your question. I don't have time now, this is the

first year I'm enjoying the holiday season, the first time my son is

anticipating it, and so I haven't been on the list. I will check back

in a day or so and see your question and respond.

Best, Rose

> >

> >

> >

> > > Please note that dosages listed are ORAL dosages, and

> > would not apply to TD (since I don't think anyone knows

> > how the absorbtion rate compares between oral and TD.)

> > >

> > > good wishes,

> > > Moria

> >

> > Let's be clear,

>

> I was being very clear, thanks. My post was about the

> dosage recommendations of Andy, as listed here:

> http://home.earthlink.net/~moriam/Andy_dose_sched.html

> These recommendations are for ORAL amounts of chelation

> agents.

>

> This file is the best (and only actually) summary I'm

> aware of on the subject. It has been published on the

> web for about 3 years, with only minor updates in that

> time (for clarity and completeness).

>

> > because our kids tend to have so much gut issues, we

> > don't know about hte absorption rate, if it's steady, etc, for

any

> of

> > the oral stuff.

>

> There is certainly a whole lot more known about oral

> absorption than about transdermal. What I have read is

> that DMPS is not absorbed transdermally -- and this is

> where Buttar has said he has some special method so that

> it is absorbed, in order to overcome this problem.

> This is a good thing, but since it is new the dosages

> would be different (than other ineffective uses of

> transdermal DMPS) and unknown/new.

>

> The FREQUENCY of dosing (every 8 hours) is what is tied

> to the issue of " steady " . It is important to keep a fairly

> steady level IN THE BLOODSTREAM. Steady doesn't refer to

> oral absorption rate, and I didn't say it did. If you

> want " not steady " in the bloodstream, every other day

> application (oral or transdermal) will certainly get you that.

>

> > You write as though there's something definitive for

> > autistic kids and not for TD-DMPS.

>

> Please reread my post, what I say is that Andy's recommendations

> are for ORAL DMPS. This is true, and the dose amounts do

> NOT apply for transdermal, as I said.

>

> What I said is perfectly accurate, and you may verify it

> with Andy any time you wish.

>

> It is also true that these dosage recommendations have

> been used by MANY parents with ASD kids, as well as many chelating

> adults, over a period of years. While this method and

> dosing is not foolproof, and not without risks, it has

> been used by many people over several years.

>

> Also, I believe DMPS dosage has been studied -- in

> oral application (but not in transdermal, since it

> generally doesn't get absorbed).

>

> > In fact, there's nothing

> > definitive about the absorption rate for kids with gut problems.

I

> > don't beleive the absorption rate of these has been tested on

> > autistic kids with gut problems. We do know that these agents can

> be

> > hard on the gut.

>

> I believe that is more true of ALA, and MAYBE DMSA, than DMPS.

> But I'll leave the details on that to others who know more

> about the differences than I do.

>

> Of course, mercury is also hard on the gut, regardless of

> whether you use TD or oral chelation.

>

> By the way, Rose, you didn't answer the questions which

> I asked you here:

> /message/126761

> Perhaps you didn't see it?

>

> Moria

>

>

>

>

> > Best, Rose

[Guest guest]

I'd like to comment on the no improvement with DMSA/ALA and then

improvement with TD-DMPS. I don't think that this type of report is

anything that a person can draw any conclusions from. It is quite

possible that significant amounts of mercury were removed from the

person's body during DMSA/ALA chelation even though no improvements

were noted. We have no idea what would have happened if the person

stayed with DMSA/ALA chelation, or what would have happened if they

changed to oral DMPS chelation, or what would have happened if the

person used a 8 h TD-DMPS dosing schedule (using the appropriate doses

for the person).

The point that I would like to make clear is that oral dosing has been

studied and transdermal dosing has not been studied. Wasn't oral DMPS

used in eastern block countries even in the 1950s? I'm sure that

Buttar is trying to get studies done on transdermal dosing with his

preparation but those type of studies take lots of money and lots of

time. Even his study of 31 kids hasn't been published yet so we

cannot look at it carefully to evaluate it.

Please don't conclude that I am being negative about TD-DMPS. I can

see the benefits especially for children who refuse to take anything

orally. I admit that I am negative about the one dose every 48 h

because that schedule does not suit the kinetics of the drug.

I can understand that a person with gut problems may have trouble

absorbing things. I have observed from experiences that adults have

shared with me that some adults who have really severe gut problems

are able to absorb oral DMSA and DMPS because they have mercury

redistribution side effects. Of course, everyone is different and

individual and treatments seem to work better if they are adapted to

the individual and if problems are addressed.

>

> Moria,

> what I was wanting to be clear about, and I guess I gave too rushed a

> response, is that we don't know what the absorption rate or steady

> amount issue is for gut-damaged kids, so that the certainty about it

> can be questioned. If it doesn't get absorbed because of gut

> problems, you would not have a steady amount in. My hypothesis is

> that kids with gut problems might be absorbing the oral dosages

> differently or inadequately, accounting for some of the problems or

> lack of results with that form of chelation for some of our kids.

> Don't know, but I do know that my faith in the value of steady state

> has been challenged. My son did not improve on DMSA/ALA chelation.

> But in 4 months of TD-DMPS he has had significant positives,

> including physical signs, something you can't attribute to biases

> or " placebo " effect. Yes, numbers of kids have improved with

> DMSA/ALA. We believed fervently in the 4 hour dosage issue, always

> spread the word about it to others not yet converted, never missed a

> dose, set alarm clocks etc. So... how to account for more

> improvements on TD-DMPS without that steady state...it's hmmmmmm time

> for us. If it were just my son, I'd say it was a fluke....

>

>

> No, I didn't see your question. I don't have time now, this is the

> first year I'm enjoying the holiday season, the first time my son is

> anticipating it, and so I haven't been on the list. I will check back

> in a day or so and see your question and respond.

>

> Best, Rose

[Guest guest]

> > >

> > > > Please note that dosages listed are ORAL dosages, and

> > > would not apply to TD (since I don't think anyone knows

> > > how the absorbtion rate compares between oral and TD.)

> > > >

> > > > good wishes,

> > > > Moria

> > >

> > > Let's be clear,

> >

> > I was being very clear, thanks. My post was about the

> > dosage recommendations of Andy, as listed here:

> > http://home.earthlink.net/~moriam/Andy_dose_sched.html

> > These recommendations are for ORAL amounts of chelation

> > agents.

> >

> > This file is the best (and only actually) summary I'm

> > aware of on the subject. It has been published on the

> > web for about 3 years, with only minor updates in that

> > time (for clarity and completeness).

> >

> > > because our kids tend to have so much gut issues, we

> > > don't know about hte absorption rate, if it's steady, etc, for

> any

> > of

> > > the oral stuff.

> >

> > There is certainly a whole lot more known about oral

> > absorption than about transdermal. What I have read is

> > that DMPS is not absorbed transdermally -- and this is

> > where Buttar has said he has some special method so that

> > it is absorbed, in order to overcome this problem.

> > This is a good thing, but since it is new the dosages

> > would be different (than other ineffective uses of

> > transdermal DMPS) and unknown/new.

> >

> > The FREQUENCY of dosing (every 8 hours) is what is tied

> > to the issue of " steady " . It is important to keep a fairly

> > steady level IN THE BLOODSTREAM. Steady doesn't refer to

> > oral absorption rate, and I didn't say it did. If you

> > want " not steady " in the bloodstream, every other day

> > application (oral or transdermal) will certainly get you that.

> >

> > > You write as though there's something definitive for

> > > autistic kids and not for TD-DMPS.

> >

> > Please reread my post, what I say is that Andy's recommendations

> > are for ORAL DMPS. This is true, and the dose amounts do

> > NOT apply for transdermal, as I said.

> >

> > What I said is perfectly accurate, and you may verify it

> > with Andy any time you wish.

> >

> > It is also true that these dosage recommendations have

> > been used by MANY parents with ASD kids, as well as many

chelating

> > adults, over a period of years. While this method and

> > dosing is not foolproof, and not without risks, it has

> > been used by many people over several years.

> >

> > Also, I believe DMPS dosage has been studied -- in

> > oral application (but not in transdermal, since it

> > generally doesn't get absorbed).

> >

> > > In fact, there's nothing

> > > definitive about the absorption rate for kids with gut

problems.

> I

> > > don't beleive the absorption rate of these has been tested on

> > > autistic kids with gut problems. We do know that these agents

can

> > be

> > > hard on the gut.

> >

> > I believe that is more true of ALA, and MAYBE DMSA, than DMPS.

> > But I'll leave the details on that to others who know more

> > about the differences than I do.

> >

> > Of course, mercury is also hard on the gut, regardless of

> > whether you use TD or oral chelation.

> >

> > By the way, Rose, you didn't answer the questions which

> > I asked you here:

> > Autism-

Mercury/message/126761

> > Perhaps you didn't see it?

> >

> > Moria

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > > Best, Rose