Re: RE: Looking at Death...........

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 8/12/01 6:47:58 PM, duodenalswitch writes:

<< It is easy to point fingers, to call people on the carpet, but it is my

opinion we are ultimately the final

responsibility for the outcome of this surgery in many ways. People only

want to help us, and I am very grateful

that there are some surgeons out there who are willing to take on the risks

we present to them. We also have

to do some work, some research and go into this knowing ALL of the risks.

It is logical to next point a finger at Larry himself and say, " Good Lord,

your BMI was 80+, what were you thinking using

a surgeon doing this for the first time " ?!? However, I am sure Larry felt

he did not have much of a choice and had a very high desire for a surgical

decision. He, like a lot of us, were/are backed into a corner. Sometimes we

can't see the the forest through the tree's and make decisions that are very

risky. Fortunately many of our risk takers have had positive results but

very sadly Larry did not.

In my opinion I belive that it is nobody's responsibility to " warn " others.

When we offer our advice that's all we can do, we can't always expect the

recipient of that advice to act upon it. Even if several dozen people wrote

to Larry privately or publicly, I'm not sure it would have changed his mind.

If I were in his shoes, I think I would have made the same decision to go

forward. Not every area of the country has good access to experienced

bariatric physicians. However, I don't think it was the skill of the

surgeon based on the facts I've read. Infection is infection, and sometimes

there is not much you can do.>>>>>>

: I agree except I think that we DO have some responsibility to provide

accurate information (perhaps not 'warning others' but in speaking out and

sharing what we know/believe). To be so judgemental and say that everyone

'failed' Larry does NOT GIVE HIM THE CREDIT HE DESERVES. IT presumes that he

(perhaps as a morbidly obese person?) did not have the 'right mind' or

'intelligence' on his own (without EXTREME intervention from others) to make

his own decision.

I think that having the surgery switched so close to the surgery date is

something that I personally would be uncomfortable with. The fact that I

would be the surgeon's first BPD/DS is also something that I personally would

be uncomfortable with. I could question Dr. Hares' reasoning and motivation

but I cannot say that he is an evil surgeon for proceeding. I also cannot

say that no one provided Larry with support or 'ignored' his situation. The

fact is, Larry himself was not aware of his surgical choice and the

ramifications of it until very close to the surgery. While I believe we

should support each other as much as possible and not try to 'hide' or

'conceal' information --- I do not think any of this was going on or caused

Larry's death.

Obviously, he was satisfied with his surgeon of choice. It says so on his

profile. Perhaps he did NOT want to travel to a major city to get the

procedure done (like someone that large really can just 'hop on' an

airplane). Perhaps he DID want to get the surgery done ASAP. He choice lead

to death and I'm sure if he had a way to predict this he would try to

minimize the chances of this happening all over again (perhaps by choosing a

different surgeon, waiting and rescheduling surgery, etc.). Perhaps he would

have taken the same chances. I trust that he was of sound mind and made his

decisions based on what he felt was best for HIMSELF. Yes, people *cAN* put

too much trust in surgeons. *YES* people can be misinformed and, without all

information, can make decisions they may not have if they knew more. But, to

ASSUME that Larry was just a sheep being lead to the slaughter is a great

disservice to his memory, IMHO. I work from the assumption that he was

intelligent in the first place.

all the best,

TEresa

lap ds with gallbladder removal

January 25, 2001

Dr. Gagner/Mt. Sinai/NYC

six months post-op and still feelin' fabu!

pre-op: 307 lbs/bmi 45

Now: 228

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 8/12/01 6:47:58 PM, duodenalswitch writes:

<< It is easy to point fingers, to call people on the carpet, but it is my

opinion we are ultimately the final

responsibility for the outcome of this surgery in many ways. People only

want to help us, and I am very grateful

that there are some surgeons out there who are willing to take on the risks

we present to them. We also have

to do some work, some research and go into this knowing ALL of the risks.

It is logical to next point a finger at Larry himself and say, " Good Lord,

your BMI was 80+, what were you thinking using

a surgeon doing this for the first time " ?!? However, I am sure Larry felt

he did not have much of a choice and had a very high desire for a surgical

decision. He, like a lot of us, were/are backed into a corner. Sometimes we

can't see the the forest through the tree's and make decisions that are very

risky. Fortunately many of our risk takers have had positive results but

very sadly Larry did not.

In my opinion I belive that it is nobody's responsibility to " warn " others.

When we offer our advice that's all we can do, we can't always expect the

recipient of that advice to act upon it. Even if several dozen people wrote

to Larry privately or publicly, I'm not sure it would have changed his mind.

If I were in his shoes, I think I would have made the same decision to go

forward. Not every area of the country has good access to experienced

bariatric physicians. However, I don't think it was the skill of the

surgeon based on the facts I've read. Infection is infection, and sometimes

there is not much you can do.>>>>>>

: I agree except I think that we DO have some responsibility to provide

accurate information (perhaps not 'warning others' but in speaking out and

sharing what we know/believe). To be so judgemental and say that everyone

'failed' Larry does NOT GIVE HIM THE CREDIT HE DESERVES. IT presumes that he

(perhaps as a morbidly obese person?) did not have the 'right mind' or

'intelligence' on his own (without EXTREME intervention from others) to make

his own decision.

I think that having the surgery switched so close to the surgery date is

something that I personally would be uncomfortable with. The fact that I

would be the surgeon's first BPD/DS is also something that I personally would

be uncomfortable with. I could question Dr. Hares' reasoning and motivation

but I cannot say that he is an evil surgeon for proceeding. I also cannot

say that no one provided Larry with support or 'ignored' his situation. The

fact is, Larry himself was not aware of his surgical choice and the

ramifications of it until very close to the surgery. While I believe we

should support each other as much as possible and not try to 'hide' or

'conceal' information --- I do not think any of this was going on or caused

Larry's death.

Obviously, he was satisfied with his surgeon of choice. It says so on his

profile. Perhaps he did NOT want to travel to a major city to get the

procedure done (like someone that large really can just 'hop on' an

airplane). Perhaps he DID want to get the surgery done ASAP. He choice lead

to death and I'm sure if he had a way to predict this he would try to

minimize the chances of this happening all over again (perhaps by choosing a

different surgeon, waiting and rescheduling surgery, etc.). Perhaps he would

have taken the same chances. I trust that he was of sound mind and made his

decisions based on what he felt was best for HIMSELF. Yes, people *cAN* put

too much trust in surgeons. *YES* people can be misinformed and, without all

information, can make decisions they may not have if they knew more. But, to

ASSUME that Larry was just a sheep being lead to the slaughter is a great

disservice to his memory, IMHO. I work from the assumption that he was

intelligent in the first place.

all the best,

TEresa

lap ds with gallbladder removal

January 25, 2001

Dr. Gagner/Mt. Sinai/NYC

six months post-op and still feelin' fabu!

pre-op: 307 lbs/bmi 45

Now: 228