Re: OT/Get Kids Vaccinated Or Else, Parents Told

[Guest guest]

Look, I am up in the air about what to do with vaccines for reasons

in the archives. Still, this case seems like the wrong fight. The law

allows exemptions, the parents were told the rules, they dropped the

ball. Sure, the remedy was stupid, and with the truancy thing may be

borderline unconstitutional, but this just does not seem like the big

case to scream about. Maybe it is just me. I have my issues with

this, like trying to find a doctor to work with me so I am not stuck

with all or nothing but that is not what this case seems to be about.

>

> >> Are they being forced to vaccinate? Or isn't the story that they

are

> >> being told to vaccinate or waiver now as this is past the

deadline.

>

>

> True. They are not being forced (technically)to vaccinate. They

had

> to come to the courthouse and present a record of vaccination, an

> exemption form, or vaccinate. Apparently there was also a

statement

> made by school board officials where they could simply explain why

> the kids were not being vaccinated (i.e. don't believe in it,

don't

> have the money, etc). They are not being arrested now. If they

> don't meet one of those requirements then the school is going to

> expel the kids and then the local district attorney could file

> truancy charges. The letter that was sent threatened parents with

> these truancy charges but the district attorney has not agreed to

> file those charges.

>

> Overall, it was a very bad move by the district. But no,

technically

> the parents were not being forced to vaccinate. Although I'm sure

> some of them felt quite intimidated by the letters and all the

> uproar. Very bad move on the district's part.

>

> Kris

>

>

>

> The Knitting Wannabe http://knittingwannabe.typepad.com

>

> Sonny & Shear: The I've Got Ewe, Babe Yarn Shop

> http://www.sonnyandshear.com

>

>

>

>

>

> >

> >

> >

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

They have 2 waivers. They have medical and religious. They do not

have an official philosophical waiver. And apparently there have been

deadlines for over a year and the district got hacked off over having

3000 kids who didn't have their records up to date. And so.... they

issued the letter. It sounds like the " jail time " portion is the

sensationalized portion because I just saw their local district

attorney saying he's not taking up his office's time with filing

charges against these parents. So.... the district may have been all

bark and no bite.

Kris

The Knitting Wannabe http://knittingwannabe.typepad.com

Sonny & Shear: The I’ve Got Ewe, Babe Yarn Shop

http://www.sonnyandshear.com

On Nov 17, 2007, at 8:23 PM, ilizzy03 wrote:

> Yes, that is the sensationalized article BUT also in that article it

> mentions a missed deadline of 9/20/07. I guess that would have been

> when they had to vaccinate or file papers refusing. My real question

> is does land has a waiver. If they do and these parents did not

> step up then cry me a river but this is not the right advocacy case

> in my opinion.

>

>

> >

> >

> > In a message dated 11/17/2007 6:53:46 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,

> > lizlaw@... writes:

> >

> > Are they being forced to vaccinate? Or isn't the story that they

> are

> > being told to vaccinate or waiver now as this is past the

> deadline.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > I believe that somewhere it said that the children were not welcome

> in

> > school UNTIL THEY WERE VACCINATED. I read that as though they will

> bully the

> > parents into vaccinating the children in order to receive an

> education in that

> > school system.

> > I could be wrong?

> >

> > Becky

> >

> >

> >

> > ************************************** See what's new at

> http://www.aol.com

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

If my child was just diagnosed and today was my first day of looking

for information on apraxia, I would never, and I mean NEVER read this

list again as a result of this exchange. Can you please handle the

personal stuff via private email?

>

>

> In a message dated 11/17/2007 4:49:48 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,

> catnip9@... writes:

>

> Please tell me where on my post it said that I agree with forcing

> people to vaccinate for the purpose of herd immunity? Please post a

> direct quote where I said that I believe families should be legally

> forced to vaccinate! I posted a comment to explain the theory of

> herd immunity and how herd immunity works to protect those who don't

> respond to being vaccinated. So please.... enlighten me (and others)

> and post the quotes where I directly state that you should be legally

> forced to vaccinate.

>

> Becky, you have a repeated problem with posting inflammatory comments

> that cannot be backed up with actual references and now you are

> personally attacking me for explaining herd immunity and the

> reasoning behind it. Your tactic is that if you cannot find the

> research to counter the stand of another poster then you personally

> attack them. No where did I say that I agree with parents being

> forced to immunize. Once again you are being inflammatory and highly

> inappropriate. Doing so does not help your argument, it only causes

> more division.

>

>

>

>

>

> Kris-

>

> I was absolutely NOT being inflammatory in my comments, and I

resent your

> saying this yet AGAIN to me. I simply carry a different opinion than

y our

> own, and because I state that opinion *I* am making inflammatory

statements?? I

> don't understand your reasoning.

>

> First of all, this whole post was ORIGINIATED due to families who

*ARE*

> being forced to vaccinate, and I simply have been replying to this

POST and to

> this subject in general. Nowhere AT ALL, do I see where I spoke to

you directly,

> where I mentioned you personally, or where I attacked you personally.

> Please feel free to find those posts where I spoke to YOU in any way

other

> than a general response to the list as a whole.

>

> You said that I have a repeated problem with posting inflammatory

comments

> that I cannot back up with references. I've made only a couple of

comments in

> regards to vaccinations, and all of a sudden I

> " have a repeated problem " I find that to be RIDICULOUS! Your

comments to

> me are rude, accusatory and out of place. I am a bit sick of them,

quite

> honestly.

>

> I am not on this list to discuss vaccines or DEFEND my rights as an

American

> citizen to choose not to vaccinate my children to protect their own

health.

> I alone can make that decision, as you can make yours, but I am sick

of

> having to defend those opinions to you here on the list. I could go

into my

> children's histories and give you the reasons and FACTS of why we

choose not to

> vaccinate, but I don't have the time nor inclination to bother with

all of it.

> If people want to know off list-- that's fine, I'd be happy to

share. But I

> won't share my life with someone like yourself who has a repeated

problem with

> bashing a fellow board member.

> (See how those words turned around at you might be considered slightly

> rude???)

>

> If you took my words to be directed to YOU personally, I am sorry,

as that

> was NOT where I was directing my words. I was posting to a general

list

> audience, not to a party of one. I'm sorry you're upset with me,

but I will no

> longer tolerate your telling me that I have a problem with making

inflammatory

> comments, and telling me I am attacking you when I am simply

discussing a

> topic.

>

> I am really tiring of this list being so touchy on this subject. It's

> obvious that vaccinations are an extremely touchy subject, so why is

it even being

> posted about in the first place? Why are people posting topics about

> vaccines and then others getting upset that I am actually voicing my

personal

> opinions??

>

> No longer will I voice my opinions on this subject, which is

unfortunate

> because I am sure that one day a new list member could come to this

board

> looking for some guidance and *personal experience with vaccines,

and because of

> your comments to me, they will not get a response. That's pretty

sad, but

> seriously, I'm just DONE with discussing this topic. I don't need

to be harassed

> by you with your comments, and I certainly don't need to back up

my comments

> to you-- because while YOU have not seen the truth in some facts, I

can't

> help that. I've done 10 yrs of research, and I am not about to waste

time

> trying to convince you of anything.

>

> I'm done-- feel free not to reply-- I'm fine with that

>

> Becky

>

>

>

> ************************************** See what's new at

http://www.aol.com

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 11/17/2007 8:26:42 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,

catnip9@... writes:

The post was clearly directed to me put forth information stating

that I am in favor of the land policy. When I responded to this

thread I made it very clear, through posting the quote, as to what I

was responding to. I realize that you are a bit embarrassed to be

confronted about your behavior but I was not going to let that

falsehood continue unchallenged.

Kris-

I am not your child, so stop speaking to me as though I was-- it's

demeaning to me, but also to yourself.

The beginning of the post WAS directed to you, yes. The END was also

directed to y ou. What I should have done when I wrote that post was SEPARATE

what

exactly was directed to you and what was not.

MY INTENTION of the middle paragraph was NOT directed towards you. You can

either believe me as the one who WROTE it, or not-- personally I don't care.

I know what my intentions were, and feel free to accuse me of poor grammar,

because that is exactly what I did. I will be more careful to be EXPLICIT

with making sure that what I am speaking about is directed RIGHT AT the person

I

want it to, and then I will make my general comments separate.

Your tone in which you're speaking to me is just disgusting, and wrong,

would you mind stopping, or will *YOU* continue with a " behavior " that you're

accusing ME of?

I am not embarrassed to be confronted for anything, because I HAVE nothing

to be embarrassed about, so stop speaking to me as though you're the principal

of the school and you've caught some child smoking in the bathroom. All

I've done is not be explicit with whom I'm speaking to and not directing my

words to you in the correct manner. You can take this for what it's worth- I

seriously don't care, but when I was speaking in that particular post, AND I N

OTHERS, in regards to our freedoms and rights, I was most definitely speaking

to a general people, no matter how I grammatically phrased it in that email.

Now, are you quite finished with trying to embarrass me for making a

mistake? Are you done with trying to degrade me? Are YOU done with what I feel

to be

defamation of my charater? Because I'm quite done with reading it, and if

you're looking to force me out of this loop, you're about to win-- go ahead, be

the bully that got rid of the woman who you don't like. I just do NOT have

time for this sort of crap in my life. I could go into why I don't have time

and what it is that I do in my life, but it is evident to me that you do not

care one iota about me, you just care about trying to make your point and

trying to be " right " all the time.

Becky

************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 11/17/2007 9:28:42 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,

catnip9@... writes:

They have 2 waivers. They have medical and religious. They do not

have an official philosophical waiver. And apparently there have been

deadlines for over a year and the district got hacked off over having

3000 kids who didn't have their records up to date. And so.... they

issued the letter. It sounds like the " jail time " portion is the

sensationalized portion because I just saw their local district

attorney saying he's not taking up his office's time with filing

charges against these parents. So.... the district may have been all

bark and no bite.

Or it could possibly be that his office was flooded with tons of phone calls

from upset citizens who were outraged by the school district's actions!!!?

Becky

************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 11/17/2007 8:25:32 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,

lizlaw@... writes:

Yes, that is the sensationalized article BUT also in that article it

mentions a missed deadline of 9/20/07. I guess that would have been

when they had to vaccinate or file papers refusing. My real question

is does land has a waiver. If they do and these parents did not

step up then cry me a river but this is not the right advocacy case

in my opinion.

I believe that land has at LEAST 2 exemptions available, but I don't

have the time to double check my references and find my link with the State's

information. I'll try to find that later on when I have more time on the

computer.

Sensationalized article or not, it's the article that was posted for me to

read. I believe there's more to the story than what we're reading about in

this article, because something just doesn't quite add up.

To have THAT amount of children who haven't been vaccinated, is quite a

large number-- for them to ALL have not only not vaccinate, but also missed the

deadline? I could be playing devil's advocate here but it doesn't seem likely

that thousands of families would miss the deadline and simply wouldn't get

an exemption.

I dunno-- that sounds off to me.

I will go back to my comment that was from the article though, where they

outright said that they children were not welcomed back into the school UNTIL

THEY WERE VACCINATED. That doesn't tell me that they are willing to wait for

those exemptions, that tells me that they would tell the parents that the

kids HAVE To be vaccinated in order to come back to school. To *ME*, that is

bullying and yes, for some, forcing.

And it's wrong either way, and I think we can ALL agree to that.

Whether it's a technicality or not, it's downright wrong how the school

system has handled this matter.

Becky

************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 11/18/2007 8:21:37 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,

jkpeikert@... writes:

If my child was just diagnosed and today was my first day of looking

for information on apraxia, I would never, and I mean NEVER read this

list again as a result of this exchange. Can you please handle the

personal stuff via private email?

-

I am sorry that you feel this way,because this list is a very helpful one

that gives so much information that is beneficial to your child.

I am usually one that would take a personal matter off list, but

unfortunately, when someone attacks my character publicly, I feel as though I

need to

defend myself in that same forum. I truly am sorry that this is causing you to

be uncomfortable. I'm thinking it might be a good idea for MANY here to

just skip over these threads if it doesn't matter to them personally.

I'm hoping that this situation will be resolved, and that it will just die

down, just like any other disagreement that would be on a list

Becky

************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

[Guest guest]

I'm a former education reporter and currently on a community advisory board

for a board of education in land (not Prince 's). There are exceptions

to the rules for vaccination for medical and religious reasons. A sample of the

exemption form can be found at

http://edcp.org/pdf/896_form_revised_Dec-2005.pdf.

I don't have any inside information more than what I read in the newspaper,

but the way it reads in there, it seems to be a problem with a family's public

health and followthrough, not anything to do with exemptions. Baltimore City and

Prince 's County, traditionally the two lowest-performing school districts

in the state, also are having the hardest time with getting children vaccinated.

These parents have had a year or two to get these shots. My district is close to

the enrollment of the City, but nowhere close to the number of students without

vaccinations. These two districts more than any other in the state have had a

hard time with administering its own district, meaning records could have been

lost in this case, plus, there are a number of children in single families,

poor, or hardly go to school. I know people who have taught in the city that say

the depiction of the schools in " The Wire " is pretty close to the truth.

On a personal note, our family is looking more closely at what we want to do

about shots. Our son is 3 and has apraxia. Our son was saying mom mom and pop

pop before 1 year, but he has hardly said them since. He goes through 5 days of

school at a pre-K program and once a week at an outside speech therapist. We

have seen some small gains the last few months, especially following directions,

but he has a long way to go. Keeping my fingers crossed.

Kent

[Guest guest]

Gals, please the best solution is to take this conversation out of

the public thread and continue it between the two of you as it

appropriately should be. Thanks, as I think both of you have great

input for the rest of us on relevant subject matter.

>

>

> In a message dated 11/17/2007 8:26:42 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,

> catnip9@... writes:

>

> The post was clearly directed to me put forth information stating

> that I am in favor of the land policy. When I responded to

this

> thread I made it very clear, through posting the quote, as to what

I

> was responding to. I realize that you are a bit embarrassed to

be

> confronted about your behavior but I was not going to let that

> falsehood continue unchallenged.

>

>

>

>

>

> Kris-

>

> I am not your child, so stop speaking to me as though I was--

it's

> demeaning to me, but also to yourself.

> The beginning of the post WAS directed to you, yes. The END was

also

> directed to y ou. What I should have done when I wrote that post

was SEPARATE what

> exactly was directed to you and what was not.

> MY INTENTION of the middle paragraph was NOT directed towards you.

You can

> either believe me as the one who WROTE it, or not-- personally I

don't care.

> I know what my intentions were, and feel free to accuse me of poor

grammar,

> because that is exactly what I did. I will be more careful to be

EXPLICIT

> with making sure that what I am speaking about is directed RIGHT AT

the person I

> want it to, and then I will make my general comments separate.

>

> Your tone in which you're speaking to me is just disgusting, and

wrong,

> would you mind stopping, or will *YOU* continue with a " behavior "

that you're

> accusing ME of?

> I am not embarrassed to be confronted for anything, because I HAVE

nothing

> to be embarrassed about, so stop speaking to me as though you're

the principal

> of the school and you've caught some child smoking in the

bathroom. All

> I've done is not be explicit with whom I'm speaking to and not

directing my

> words to you in the correct manner. You can take this for what

it's worth- I

> seriously don't care, but when I was speaking in that particular

post, AND I N

> OTHERS, in regards to our freedoms and rights, I was most

definitely speaking

> to a general people, no matter how I grammatically phrased it in

that email.

>

> Now, are you quite finished with trying to embarrass me for making

a

> mistake? Are you done with trying to degrade me? Are YOU done with

what I feel to be

> defamation of my charater? Because I'm quite done with reading it,

and if

> you're looking to force me out of this loop, you're about to win--

go ahead, be

> the bully that got rid of the woman who you don't like. I just do

NOT have

> time for this sort of crap in my life. I could go into why I don't

have time

> and what it is that I do in my life, but it is evident to me that

you do not

> care one iota about me, you just care about trying to make your

point and

> trying to be " right " all the time.

>

>

> Becky

>

>

>

> ************************************** See what's new at

http://www.aol.com

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 11/18/2007 3:59:25 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,

lizlaw@... writes:

On a personal note, our family is looking more closely at what

we want to do about shots. Our son is 3 and has apraxia. Our son was

saying mom mom and pop pop before 1 year, but he has hardly said them

since. He goes through 5 days of school at a pre-K program and once a

week at an outside speech therapist. We have seen some small gains

the last few months, especially following directions, but he has a

long way to go. Keeping my fingers crossed.

>

> Kent

Kent-

There are many books in print that are great to help give you the

information that you might need to make your decision either way.

One of the best resources out there is a book called:

" The Vaccine Guide " by Randall Neustaedter

There is an older version that has a brown soft cover with a baby on the

front, and there is a revised edition that is cream and a turquoise color on the

soft cover. Either version is a great book that will help you greatly.

The information is given as facts and is a non-biased source.

Good luck

Becky

************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

[Guest guest]

Good luck with your decision. We have similar concerns. Kris,

Haukoos, has written some very good posts in the archives about how

to vaccinate safely minus the metal and preservatives. She also wrote

some stuff about what you must comsider if you do not give the shots.

It is wisdom of for sure. My best to you and your child. It

is not about pro or con vaccine in the end...it is about prochild.

>

> I'm a former education reporter and currently on a community

advisory board for a board of education in land (not Prince

's). There are exceptions to the rules for vaccination for

medical and religious reasons. A sample of the exemption form can be

found at http://edcp.org/pdf/896_form_revised_Dec-2005.pdf.

>

> I don't have any inside information more than what I read in

the newspaper, but the way it reads in there, it seems to be a

problem with a family's public health and followthrough, not anything

to do with exemptions. Baltimore City and Prince 's County,

traditionally the two lowest-performing school districts in the

state, also are having the hardest time with getting children

vaccinated. These parents have had a year or two to get these shots.

My district is close to the enrollment of the City, but nowhere close

to the number of students without vaccinations. These two districts

more than any other in the state have had a hard time with

administering its own district, meaning records could have been lost

in this case, plus, there are a number of children in single

families, poor, or hardly go to school. I know people who have taught

in the city that say the depiction of the schools in " The Wire " is

pretty close to the truth.

>

> On a personal note, our family is looking more closely at what

we want to do about shots. Our son is 3 and has apraxia. Our son was

saying mom mom and pop pop before 1 year, but he has hardly said them

since. He goes through 5 days of school at a pre-K program and once a

week at an outside speech therapist. We have seen some small gains

the last few months, especially following directions, but he has a

long way to go. Keeping my fingers crossed.

>

> Kent

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I have to agree here. I am really getting tired of seeing this bickering going

back and forth.

Enough is enough. This is suppose to be an apraxia website. Shall we keep it at

that.

Sue

[ ] Re: OT/Get Kids Vaccinated Or Else, Parents Told

If my child was just diagnosed and today was my first day of looking

for information on apraxia, I would never, and I mean NEVER read this

list again as a result of this exchange. Can you please handle the

personal stuff via private email?

>

>

> In a message dated 11/17/2007 4:49:48 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,

> catnip9@... writes:

>

> Please tell me where on my post it said that I agree with forcing

> people to vaccinate for the purpose of herd immunity? Please post a

> direct quote where I said that I believe families should be legally

> forced to vaccinate! I posted a comment to explain the theory of

> herd immunity and how herd immunity works to protect those who don't

> respond to being vaccinated. So please.... enlighten me (and others)

> and post the quotes where I directly state that you should be legally

> forced to vaccinate.

>

> Becky, you have a repeated problem with posting inflammatory comments

> that cannot be backed up with actual references and now you are

> personally attacking me for explaining herd immunity and the

> reasoning behind it. Your tactic is that if you cannot find the

> research to counter the stand of another poster then you personally

> attack them. No where did I say that I agree with parents being

> forced to immunize. Once again you are being inflammatory and highly

> inappropriate. Doing so does not help your argument, it only causes

> more division.

>

>

>

>

>

> Kris-

>

> I was absolutely NOT being inflammatory in my comments, and I

resent your

> saying this yet AGAIN to me. I simply carry a different opinion than

y our

> own, and because I state that opinion *I* am making inflammatory

statements?? I

> don't understand your reasoning.

>

> First of all, this whole post was ORIGINIATED due to families who

*ARE*

> being forced to vaccinate, and I simply have been replying to this

POST and to

> this subject in general. Nowhere AT ALL, do I see where I spoke to

you directly,

> where I mentioned you personally, or where I attacked you personally.

> Please feel free to find those posts where I spoke to YOU in any way

other

> than a general response to the list as a whole.

>

> You said that I have a repeated problem with posting inflammatory

comments

> that I cannot back up with references. I've made only a couple of

comments in

> regards to vaccinations, and all of a sudden I

> " have a repeated problem " I find that to be RIDICULOUS! Your

comments to

> me are rude, accusatory and out of place. I am a bit sick of them,

quite

> honestly.

>

> I am not on this list to discuss vaccines or DEFEND my rights as an

American

> citizen to choose not to vaccinate my children to protect their own

health.

> I alone can make that decision, as you can make yours, but I am sick

of

> having to defend those opinions to you here on the list. I could go

into my

> children's histories and give you the reasons and FACTS of why we

choose not to

> vaccinate, but I don't have the time nor inclination to bother with

all of it.

> If people want to know off list-- that's fine, I'd be happy to

share. But I

> won't share my life with someone like yourself who has a repeated

problem with

> bashing a fellow board member.

> (See how those words turned around at you might be considered slightly

> rude???)

>

> If you took my words to be directed to YOU personally, I am sorry,

as that

> was NOT where I was directing my words. I was posting to a general

list

> audience, not to a party of one. I'm sorry you're upset with me,

but I will no

> longer tolerate your telling me that I have a problem with making

inflammatory

> comments, and telling me I am attacking you when I am simply

discussing a

> topic.

>

> I am really tiring of this list being so touchy on this subject. It's

> obvious that vaccinations are an extremely touchy subject, so why is

it even being

> posted about in the first place? Why are people posting topics about

> vaccines and then others getting upset that I am actually voicing my

personal

> opinions??

>

> No longer will I voice my opinions on this subject, which is

unfortunate

> because I am sure that one day a new list member could come to this

board

> looking for some guidance and *personal experience with vaccines,

and because of

> your comments to me, they will not get a response. That's pretty

sad, but

> seriously, I'm just DONE with discussing this topic. I don't need

to be harassed

> by you with your comments, and I certainly don't need to back up

my comments

> to you-- because while YOU have not seen the truth in some facts, I

can't

> help that. I've done 10 yrs of research, and I am not about to waste

time

> trying to convince you of anything.

>

> I'm done-- feel free not to reply-- I'm fine with that

>

> Becky

>

>

>

> ************ ********* ********* ******** See what's new at

http://www.aol. com

>

>

>