Re: a question about staphylococcus aureus

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 2/25/2003 1:04:25 AM Eastern Standard Time,

majahristozova@... writes:

> I've heard that PA eats approx. 2% of the lungs per

> year..

IS THAT TRUE????????

Rosemary from New York with 3 children with CF -

they are 12.5, 10, 6......

I coined the phrase " BREATHE DAMMIT " ; we have a dog we named -are you ready

for this - TOBI after their medication!!! At least it wasn't albuterol or

Coly...

[Guest guest]

I tend to disagree with the fact that staph doesn't morph into MRSA.

Everything morphs, for instance my son's pseudomaonas has evolved into

Xanthomus maltophilia and alkaligienes, At least these are the two that tend

to grow and be more predominant. Our Cf docs are certain this " morphing "

does occur in Cf folks.

Amber

Nick's mom

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

I think your doc is right! When you go to the list files you'll find two

articles about staph treatment in the research section. Fiona cultures for

staph now for more than 5 years and after I read the studies of Dr. Rathjen

about staph aureus I decided to give it a try and voted against the

continuous antibiotical treatment. So far Fiona is doing well and hasn't got

PA yet (touch wood). We give a three week course of oral antibiotics almost

every three months to keep the staph at bay. The number one symptom that we

go by is Fiona's coughing at night. When it get's so bad that she can't

sleep well throughout the night then we know it's time for another course of

cefachlor.

To my knowledge staph aureus doesn't cause any major damage in the lung and

therefore it isn't as dangerous as pseudomonas aeruginosa. The bad thing

about PA is, that it causes the body's immune response to run havoc and as a

result the body destroys itself. That's why some docs already look at CF as

like an autoimmune disease. It's not in first place, but some researchers

think that the lung of pwcf would do much better if one could supress the

immune response against PA.

Point is, I agree with your doc. And staph is a bacteria that lives

everywhere in the environment, more than 20% of the HEALTHY people harbor it

in their nostrils. So it's close to impossible to avoid it. And I don't

think that a normal staph can mutate into MRSA easily. It's a totally

different strain.

Peace

Torsten, dad of Fiona 6wcf

e-mail: torstenkrafft@...

a question about staphylococcus aureus

> Hi all, I was wondering what causes the bacteria staph to grow in the

lungs?

> has staph and his dr is not worried about it, Hes always had it.

Now

> I was researching and I came across sites that state this bacteria if from

> food like meats and reheated foods, ok so is there two different kinds of

> staph? I also am wondering how do we know that having this bacteria in his

> lungs is not destroying them slowly? I don't want to wait years and years

and

> come to find out that it damaged his lungs. His doctor said it was better

to

> be colonized with staph because it keeps out the more dangerous bacteria,

> such as pseudomonous and b cepacia. What do you all think? We have clinic

on

> the 12th and I want to bring up this issue again. Im not an expert on the

> lungs but I would think if bacteria was sitting there festering then it

would

> be a problem, right? Another response to why leave it is because he

doesn't

> have symptoms with the staph? Ok so what kind of syptoms would we look for

in

> that case? Thanks to all who respond and give support to my family, I

greatly

> appreciate it. Thanks as always mommy to 4 yrs 10 months old

> w/cf and 20 months old no/cf.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I'm thinking that " morph " is not the term we're looking for here. I

think that " evolve " would be closer, although I really don't see how

one bacteria could change into another, as pseudomonas changing into

xanthomus maltophilia. (Morphing brings to mind a sudden change, not

the gradual change over time and generations that would be the case

of bacteria becoming resistant -bacteria generations, not people

generations.) Maybe in that case the pseudo was *replaced* by the

other bacteria. I'm no scientist, though, and the ways of bacteria

are mostly mysterious to me. I did, however, find this interesting

site that very nicely gives a history of staph. It's a good read (if

you're into that sort of thing!)

http://www.molbio.princeton.edu/courses/mb427/2001/projects/02/staph.h

tm

Sorry for the very long link, it may have to be copied and pasted

instead of just clicked to get there.

~

> > I tend to disagree with the fact that staph doesn't

> > morph into MRSA.

> > Everything morphs, for instance my son's

> > pseudomaonas has evolved into

> > Xanthomus maltophilia and alkaligienes, At least

> > these are the two that tend

> > to grow and be more predominant. Our Cf docs are

> > certain this " morphing "

> > does occur in Cf folks.

> >

> > Amber

> > Nick's mom

> >

[Guest guest]

Is it me or does this link not work??

Holly

>

>Reply-To: cfparents

>To: cfparents

>Subject: Re: a question about staphylococcus aureus

>Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 09:52:22 -0000

>

>I'm thinking that " morph " is not the term we're looking for here. I

>think that " evolve " would be closer, although I really don't see how

>one bacteria could change into another, as pseudomonas changing into

>xanthomus maltophilia. (Morphing brings to mind a sudden change, not

>the gradual change over time and generations that would be the case

>of bacteria becoming resistant -bacteria generations, not people

>generations.) Maybe in that case the pseudo was *replaced* by the

>other bacteria. I'm no scientist, though, and the ways of bacteria

>are mostly mysterious to me. I did, however, find this interesting

>site that very nicely gives a history of staph. It's a good read (if

>you're into that sort of thing!)

>http://www.molbio.princeton.edu/courses/mb427/2001/projects/02/staph.h

>tm

>Sorry for the very long link, it may have to be copied and pasted

>instead of just clicked to get there.

>

>~

>

>

> > > I tend to disagree with the fact that staph doesn't

> > > morph into MRSA.

> > > Everything morphs, for instance my son's

> > > pseudomaonas has evolved into

> > > Xanthomus maltophilia and alkaligienes, At least

> > > these are the two that tend

> > > to grow and be more predominant. Our Cf docs are

> > > certain this " morphing "

> > > does occur in Cf folks.

> > >

> > > Amber

> > > Nick's mom

> > >

>

>

_________________________________________________________________

The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE*

http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail

[Guest guest]

Hi,

I tend to disagree :-))

I said that normal staph won't mutate into MRSA if you leave it untreated.

If you leave the normal staph aureus alone, there is no need for it to

become resistant to anything. Resistance is a normal evolutionary reaction

when bacteria get exposed to poisons. So when you take antibiotics and the

dose isn't high enough or the course is too short then there is the risk

that some bacteria survive and hand their survival skills over to the next

generations. That's why I am against anti-bacterial soaps and other stuff

that works with low-dose antibacterials.When you use them you install

survival camps for bacteria in your house and breed resisitant bacteria on

your own.

But when there are no poisons (like antibiotics) the bacteria can't learn to

survive and hence can't become resistant.

And of course pseudomonas aeruginosa can't evolve into anything else than

pseudomonas aeruginosa. What can happen though is, that one bug gets

replaced by another. And that's exactly the reason why some docs decide to

leave staph untreated, because the data suggest that staph helps to keep the

more dangerous pseudomonas out of the lung. This theory came up in the early

90's, when German CF docs realized that CF-patients from former East Germany

had less problems with pseudomonas than the peer group in West-Germany.

Because of a lack of money patients in East Germany did not get as many

antibiotics as in West Germany and as a side effect the staph could defend

its place against the pseudomonas. Clear as mud? Please read the articles in

the research files, they can explain it better than I can.

Peace

Torsten, dad of Fiona 6wcf

e-mail: torstenkrafft@...

Re: a question about staphylococcus aureus

> I tend to disagree with the fact that staph doesn't morph into MRSA.

> Everything morphs, for instance my son's pseudomaonas has evolved into

> Xanthomus maltophilia and alkaligienes, At least these are the two that

tend

> to grow and be more predominant. Our Cf docs are certain this " morphing "

> does occur in Cf folks.

>

> Amber

> Nick's mom

[Guest guest]

Hi Maia,

of course has at one point in the past one strain of SA mutated (I don't

know the term " morphed " ) into MRSA. But that doesn't happen on an every day

basis like say the mutation from non-mucoid PA to mucoid PA.

And again, when you don't take antibiotics the strain can't get resistant to

it. It's as simple as that.

But what can happen (and happens far more often then the clinics will admit)

is, that you go into the clinic with normal SA and get out of the clinic

with MRSA because you caught it there. MRSA is a typical hospital germ

already and quite a problem.

Peace

Torsten, dad of Fiona 6wcf

e-mail: torstenkrafft@...

Re: a question about staphylococcus aureus

> Torsten,

> if SA doesn't morph into MRSA, where does the MRSA

> come from?

> I have actually read that- about the morphing on a

> website...

>

> Maia

[Guest guest]

Unfortunately, it is not always an option to treat or not treat staph. In

some people, staph itself causes considerable lung damage and can 'get out

of control'. Too short a treatment time or too short a dose of antibiotics

can allow antibiotic resistance to develop - but so can long term use of

antibiotics, even at high doses.

For some it is a real dilemma. Do we treat the staph and allow room for P.A.

to possibly take up residence or do we allow staph to do its damage?

Sometimes, even treating staph doesn't eradicate it; all we can do is hope

to keep it under control.

However, if staph is NOT causing a person much problem, I think I would be

tempted to leave it untreated until we have better means of controlling or

eradicating P.A.

Just some thoughts as I read some posts,

M

Re: a question about staphylococcus aureus

.. . .

What can happen though is, that one bug gets

> replaced by another. And that's exactly the reason why some docs decide to

> leave staph untreated, because the data suggest that staph helps to keep

the

> more dangerous pseudomonas out of the lung. This theory came up in the

early

> 90's, when German CF docs realized that CF-patients from former East

Germany

> had less problems with pseudomonas than the peer group in West-Germany.

> Because of a lack of money patients in East Germany did not get as many

> antibiotics as in West Germany and as a side effect the staph could defend

> its place against the pseudomonas. . . .

[Guest guest]

okay, I'm going to take Fred's advice. The more people you hear from about

something, the more helpful it is. My son has cultured MRSA for several

years. I think it is because of his serious hospitalization early in life.

It does not cause problems for him, so we don't treat it. He is doing well.

About once or twice a year, he gets a dry cough that we treat with

gentamycin nebs and zithromax orally. That seems to clear him up until next

time the dry cough comes back. If he gets a cold or virus that is causing

increased cough, we also put him on 14 days of gentamycin nebs. We do not

treat the pseudomonas or the MRSA per se because it shows up in all of his

cultures and doesn't seem to make him sick. My feeling is that it is

important to use antibiotics wisely. We use them if he is sick or has

increased cough. If symptoms are not present, we don't treat it.

Re: a question about staphylococcus aureus

Unfortunately, it is not always an option to treat or not treat staph. In

some people, staph itself causes considerable lung damage and can 'get out

of control'. Too short a treatment time or too short a dose of antibiotics

can allow antibiotic resistance to develop - but so can long term use of

antibiotics, even at high doses.

For some it is a real dilemma. Do we treat the staph and allow room for P.A.

to possibly take up residence or do we allow staph to do its damage?

Sometimes, even treating staph doesn't eradicate it; all we can do is hope

to keep it under control.

However, if staph is NOT causing a person much problem, I think I would be

tempted to leave it untreated until we have better means of controlling or

eradicating P.A.

Just some thoughts as I read some posts,

M

Re: a question about staphylococcus aureus

.. . .

What can happen though is, that one bug gets

> replaced by another. And that's exactly the reason why some docs decide to

> leave staph untreated, because the data suggest that staph helps to keep

the

> more dangerous pseudomonas out of the lung. This theory came up in the

early

> 90's, when German CF docs realized that CF-patients from former East

Germany

> had less problems with pseudomonas than the peer group in West-Germany.

> Because of a lack of money patients in East Germany did not get as many

> antibiotics as in West Germany and as a side effect the staph could defend

> its place against the pseudomonas. . . .

-------------------------------------------

The opinions and information exchanged on this list should IN NO WAY

be construed as medical advice.

PLEASE CONSULT YOUR PHYSICIAN BEFORE CHANGING ANY MEDICATIONS OR TREATMENTS.

------------------------------------