Guest guest Posted December 22, 2006 Report Share Posted December 22, 2006 Roxanna, I truly used to be on the sensory need bandwagon until I decided to start applying good teaching to helping kids overcome their sensory " needs " and one after another we found that the when the need was addressed in caring but systematic way, it truly was nothing more than an extremely stubborn attempt to hold on to a preference. Normally that is no problem but when those preferences begin to impede on the child's learning or social success it is a worthwhile endeavor to help them to see past the immediate result of the sensory preference to the larger social and learning benefits. ________________________ Schramm, MA, BCBA www.lulu.com/knospe-aba www.knospe-aba.com ________________________ Re: ( ) Sensory Integration Just because I looked into the dolphin therapy, I have to disagree that it is just an activity. I read that the sound waves the dolphins give off have an organizing affect on the nervous system. I am also an OT and have used SI principals on my children with good results. I cannot give you hard proof because it just does not exist. But the problem I have with therapy is that the goal is to get the child into the 'zone' to enable to child to focus, but there is not a lot of carryover to real life. The thinking is that the more time the child spends in the 'zone', the shift is from out of the 'zone' into the 'zone'. Then the child will be able to stay in the 'zone' at home and school with less assistance from caregivers. But I have created my own 'therapy' with my children to decrease the gap from direct therapy to real life. With my 5 year old daughter, the focus is more on teaching her to control her impulses to function in school. I have never done any ABA therapy because she was diagnosed late, but it would probably have been good when she was younger. But now she is in kindergarden and I try not to allow accommodation at school because she has progressed so much. But she needs support (SI and others) at home because she still cannot fit in it the 'real' world 24 hours a day. Just my 2 cents, Jen > > > Hi everyone, > > > > Since this is a forum for presenting different > > opinions, I just > > wanted to give mine. I am reading posts about SI > > therapy not being > > effective and I am worried that readers will > > discount this type of > > therapy as a viable treatment because of a few > > influential people's > > opinions on this list. Please realize that not all > > OTs who are > > providing SI therapy are SI certified. Some therapy > > is better than > > others based on the provider. Also, outcome will be > > based on the > > specific needs of each child. SI therapy is > > researched based and > > taught at major universities. I do believe it is > > effective, and > > although it can be expensive for private OT SI > > therapy, it doesn't > > have to be long term because the parents learn the > > techniques and > > take over at home. You may just have to invest in > > some equipment if > > you choose. > > > > From my own experience as an OT, my son could not > > complete his > > homework unless he was swinging on a swing or > > jumping on a > > trampoline. It's just a simple example but amazing > > when all the > > answers would come out of his mouth so easily. Too > > bad he can't > > write like that! > > > > Thanks for listening, > > > > Debbie > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ __ > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 22, 2006 Report Share Posted December 22, 2006 No wonder my son's " SI " therapy has been so successful. His OT worked with him to tolerate substances such as paint, shaving cream, etc. VERY slowly to increase tolerance and not throw up when he looked at or touched it. He can now take a bubble bath, and will tolerate getting paint or glue on his fingers... He doesn't really like it, and will wash it off quick but he doesn't throw up... and he takes a bath with lots of bubbles every morning for 20 minutes. puts him in a good mood before school. (luckily he gets up very early so we have plenty of time) we did the same thing with the swing. he used to flip out taking his feet off the ground, but he now can do it, and he enjoys it. he also used to be petrified of going on a sled or moving in a stroller and i'm so pleased to say that last winter we went sledding (haven't ad a chance this year with such warm weather) and he went on a ROLLER COASTER this summer at sesame place. so is that SI therapy or good aba provided by an OT? -lisa mom to tommy 6 yrs AS/PDD-NOS... > > Hi Liz, > > I liked your story. What you did was not sensory integration therapy. what you did was a systematic desensitization process of simplifying the ultimate goal (of playing in the sand box) to a level that was acceptable to your child, paired that activity with reinforcement making it more valuable to your child and then slowly altered the reinforcing environment to one that you felt was more appropriate and useful for your child's future. > > That is really good ABA/VB. > > > > ________________________ > Schramm, MA, BCBA > www.lulu.com/knospe-aba > www.knospe-aba.com > ________________________ > > > > Re: ( ) Sensory Integration > > > . > > > All this talk of sensory integration is reminding me of my daughter. > She's my non-AS child. As some of you know, I was a Montessori > preschool and kindergarten teacher for about 8 years, some of those > years during my daughter's preschool years. For some reason, I > thought it was vital that she learn to play in the sandbox. She was > about 20 months old at the time, and she wanted nothing to do with > it. So here's what I did. I got her a tub and filled it with oatmeal. > I gave her spoons and little shovels, and she had a good time > spooning oatmeal. Once she mastered the oatmeal, I switched her to > cornmeal. After a while, I switched her to sand, and we stayed with > the tub. After a while, we switched to the turtle sandbox and she had > a blast. Whew! Don't ask why I thought it was so important, cuz I > surely don't know! > > Liz > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 22, 2006 Report Share Posted December 22, 2006 , That is an excellent question. I do not think that either is mutually exclusive. I think the using a child's sensory preferences to engage him in activities and use those activities to motivate and reinforce acceptance of more difficult abilities can be ABA and it can be SI. If the SI person has that set of goals. I think it comes down to the goals of the procedures and how they are used by the individual therapist. There is nothing magic about ABA and everyone one of us are using its principles everyday with our every interaction. Some more successfully than others and some with more consistency than others. Many parents develop their own procedures with their kids that work well without knowing exactly why what they are doing is so successful. Like I said with the example from the other email, choosing to use cold veggies for proprioceptive input, sounds nice but doesn't have an outcome goal that I can measure or determine if I have been successful. That is the scary part about SI to me. In many cases we are asked to do many activities without a clear understanding of what they are doing for the child and are asked to believe that it will make a difference. Bottom line, I have nothing against an OT doing SI the way you mention (from my training that is just good ABA done by an OT) but often your example is not what is begin done by OT's in the name of SI. Hence my concern about SI as a stand alone therapy for ASD. ________________________ Schramm, MA, BCBA www.lulu.com/knospe-aba www.knospe-aba.com ________________________ Re: ( ) Sensory Integration > > > . > > > All this talk of sensory integration is reminding me of my daughter. > She's my non-AS child. As some of you know, I was a Montessori > preschool and kindergarten teacher for about 8 years, some of those > years during my daughter's preschool years. For some reason, I > thought it was vital that she learn to play in the sandbox. She was > about 20 months old at the time, and she wanted nothing to do with > it. So here's what I did. I got her a tub and filled it with oatmeal. > I gave her spoons and little shovels, and she had a good time > spooning oatmeal. Once she mastered the oatmeal, I switched her to > cornmeal. After a while, I switched her to sand, and we stayed with > the tub. After a while, we switched to the turtle sandbox and she had > a blast. Whew! Don't ask why I thought it was so important, cuz I > surely don't know! > > Liz > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 22, 2006 Report Share Posted December 22, 2006 I disagree,I think OT is a very viable option. It is not a cure-all but it does help with AS and SDI. My son has Asperger Syndrome AND Sensory Integration Dysfunction. OT has done amazing things for my son. He never liked hugs, never held hands. After his SI diet was in place. WOW!! Brushing helped. If you check out our website I am a huge supporter of trying different therapies. It also talks about how far has come SINCE SI. I do believe you should research your ass of before trying anything. http://mytwoboys.s5.com Cori mom to ph 9, Left clubfoot and to 6, AS and SDI I do believe you should research your ass of before trying anything. > I don't think an OT is not a viable option for kids with autism. I simply said that I've never seen anyone fix sensory issues via therapy. If someone has had that happen, then they should keep at it. I think the big message I would have in this is that parents should get goals and data. Don't just blindly do any therapy without knowing why and having goals which you can monitor for progress. An OT can be great for fine motor problems. > > I am also wanting to get a sensory diet for my 10 yo at school since he keeps falling asleep. He has a terrible time with " self regulation " and I think he needs a program where he has to get up and move around from time to time to help keep him awake. I think a lot of SI therapy is accommodating towards the sensory issues and not remedial in nature. I don't mind accommodating either but I want to keep an eye towards remediation as we go along. > > Roxanna > Re: ( ) Sensory Integration > > > As a mother I have had to change my philosophy towards research; I > don't have the time to wait for double blind studies. As a > therapist before having children, I would have never believed > something without these studies. But then again, if you feel > sensory intergration is a waste of time, than I would think you > would not consider OT to based on science. I have gone in a > different direction since finding out my daughter has autism. I > have put her on the gfcf diet, starting chelation based on the > theory by one chemist, and started supplementing based on > observation. I would have thought all this was a waste of people's > time and money 5 years ago. What I have witnessed in my daughter in > the last 9 months is regression if gluten or casein is accidently > introduced, improvement in cognition and sensory function since > adjusting supplements, and drastic decrease in autistic > characteristics since starting chelation. I assume you could easily > give me reasons why these regressions/improvements are due to other > forces at work, but it is much easier to tear down my point than it > is for me to prove my point. As a parent I have decided to do what > works for my child, of course keeping my eyes open to the scams out > there. > > Personally I feel it is not advisable to state that SI is not a > viable treatment option. Most autistic children need as much > therapy as possible, with some treatments being more appropriate for > some children. Some need ABA, but I think all should receive OT (SI > or other) if eligible. > > Everyone on this list has something to offer whether a professional > or a parent who has been through it 24 hours a day. > > > > > > > > > > > Hi everyone, > > > > > > > > Since this is a forum for presenting different > > > > opinions, I just > > > > wanted to give mine. I am reading posts about SI > > > > therapy not being > > > > effective and I am worried that readers will > > > > discount this type of > > > > therapy as a viable treatment because of a few > > > > influential people's > > > > opinions on this list. Please realize that not all > > > > OTs who are > > > > providing SI therapy are SI certified. Some therapy > > > > is better than > > > > others based on the provider. Also, outcome will be > > > > based on the > > > > specific needs of each child. SI therapy is > > > > researched based and > > > > taught at major universities. I do believe it is > > > > effective, and > > > > although it can be expensive for private OT SI > > > > therapy, it doesn't > > > > have to be long term because the parents learn the > > > > techniques and > > > > take over at home. You may just have to invest in > > > > some equipment if > > > > you choose. > > > > > > > > From my own experience as an OT, my son could not > > > > complete his > > > > homework unless he was swinging on a swing or > > > > jumping on a > > > > trampoline. It's just a simple example but amazing > > > > when all the > > > > answers would come out of his mouth so easily. Too > > > > bad he can't > > > > write like that! > > > > > > > > Thanks for listening, > > > > > > > > Debbie > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ __ > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 23, 2006 Report Share Posted December 23, 2006 Just wanted to add my two cents to the SI debate. I had my son in a lot ot the SI stuff, and I'm not a fan, it seemed pleasant enough for him but it cost the earth and didn't make any noticeable changes. What has helped him, though, is probably something SI related. I have been running him four or five times a week since last year. We go out and run, either on a route around our neighborhood with our Cockatoo perched on the old jogging stroller, or on the trails by our gym, or in this weather, around the 1/4 mile track inside the gym. At first it was complete torture, I just grabbed his hand and yanked him along until he was out of breath, he would lie down on the ground and refuse to go any further and he would even weep and sound like I was abusing him it was very embarrassing when anyone would pass us. But I kept on, we'd walk fairly briskly or go at his snail like running pace he runs about a twenty minute mile. Amazingly enough, after only the third time he started to calmly trot along, chattering to me about all his various preoccupations, making up stories and song variations, kidding me about things etc. We started with two miles and now we almost always do three. He casually says, " thanks Mom, " when we're finished! There is still often a lot of whining and resistance and bargaining about how far we'll go at the beginning, I just keep doggedly pushing him along (sometimes literally, a shove here and there! I still occasionally grab his hand and pull him esp. to get him out of a silly giggling fit or a terrible whining patch). This hour a day, during which his cheeks get red and his whole body temperature heats up, seems to do wonders for his concentration and overall personality. His siblings all agree, when he's being particularly silly and annoying, that " Sam needs to run! " They'll come along for a lap or two, but although they can all outrun him for short bursts, he is the stamina champ. We have done lots of Tortoise and Hare talk. Usually after about a mile he stops complaining and settles in. Lots of flapping comes up, as if he's kind of shaking it off. I always urge him to run faster when he feels like flapping -- he does kind of speed up as he flaps. I quit for a couple of weeks before Thanksgiving and Grandpa noticed the difference. He and Grandma had been watching me drag the poor whimpering fellow out the door after Sunday dinner at their house (even though he always comes back happy and telling some silliness we've discussed) and kind of giving me a hard time about it. But after Thanksgiving dinner Grandpa said it was the first time in a long time he'd seen so much flapping, perserverative talk, etc., and urged me to get him back exercising. It always, always helps with homework if I get that hour of running in first. We even talk math problems or vocabulary or practice Soc. Studies facts at times as we run. I consider long large motor work , where the breathing is deep and the body temperature and heartrate are raised, a kind of ADD medication. I also often tell him, when you grow up and I'm not around all the time, and you find your mind scattered all over the place always remember you can go for a run. Think, I need to get out theire and unscramble my brain. Once a week he gets to run on the treadmill and watch a DVD. He goes faster and more efficiently (17 minute miles with some good sprints) but screen time is a big issue for us and I try to keep it at a minimum. (None at all on weekdays). Original Message ----- From: Schramm Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 9:27 PM Subject: Re: ( ) Sensory Integration , That is an excellent question. I do not think that either is mutually exclusive. I think the using a child's sensory preferences to engage him in activities and use those activities to motivate and reinforce acceptance of more difficult abilities can be ABA and it can be SI. If the SI person has that set of goals. I think it comes down to the goals of the procedures and how they are used by the individual therapist. There is nothing magic about ABA and everyone one of us are using its principles everyday with our every interaction. Some more successfully than others and some with more consistency than others. Many parents develop their own procedures with their kids that work well without knowing exactly why what they are doing is so successful. Like I said with the example from the other email, choosing to use cold veggies for proprioceptive input, sounds nice but doesn't have an outcome goal that I can measure or determine if I have been successful. That is the scary part about SI to me. In many cases we are asked to do many activities without a clear understanding of what they are doing for the child and are asked to believe that it will make a difference. Bottom line, I have nothing against an OT doing SI the way you mention (from my training that is just good ABA done by an OT) but often your example is not what is begin done by OT's in the name of SI. Hence my concern about SI as a stand alone therapy for ASD. ________________________ Schramm, MA, BCBA www.lulu.com/knospe-aba www.knospe-aba.com ________________________ Re: ( ) Sensory Integration > > > . > > > All this talk of sensory integration is reminding me of my daughter. > She's my non-AS child. As some of you know, I was a Montessori > preschool and kindergarten teacher for about 8 years, some of those > years during my daughter's preschool years. For some reason, I > thought it was vital that she learn to play in the sandbox. She was > about 20 months old at the time, and she wanted nothing to do with > it. So here's what I did. I got her a tub and filled it with oatmeal. > I gave her spoons and little shovels, and she had a good time > spooning oatmeal. Once she mastered the oatmeal, I switched her to > cornmeal. After a while, I switched her to sand, and we stayed with > the tub. After a while, we switched to the turtle sandbox and she had > a blast. Whew! Don't ask why I thought it was so important, cuz I > surely don't know! > > Liz > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 24, 2006 Report Share Posted December 24, 2006 Kim, I wish I had a dime for every person who came to this group and said they think their kid has AS but this professional doesn't or that professional said it is (long list of alphabet soup.) I'd be rich! <g> I am not saying all professionals are wrong. Some are not. Just that this happens a lot. I think if an OT said they didn't think it was AS, I would ask them for the data to show how they arrived at that decision. Did they do tests? Where did he rate/score? Or is this just a " I FEEL that he isn't AS " kind of thing to say? I don't really think OT's are qualified to dx a child with autism. But I know they can probably give you their own opinion. Once my ds was getting ST at an area hospital. The first visit after the evaluation, his new ST came out and asked me if I knew anything about autism. I already had a ds with HFA at home so I kinda smiled and said, " yeah. " She then went on to describe the behaviors she was seeing with my ds and that she felt he needed to be seen by the dev. doc for a dx because she said he definitely was autistic. I went to the dev. doc at my older ds's check up and asked him about our younger ds. He got mad and said the ST has no business saying that to us! In retrospect, he is probably right technically. I didn't mind it though because it only solidified what we already suspected was going on. But I didn't think about the other end of this - if a therapist decides a child doesn't have a certain problem, would they discourage parents from finding help? And that might be exactly what would happen. If the ST had told me my kid was not autistic, I might have held on to that little piece of hope in the land of denial for a while longer. Who knows? Anyway, since then I've learned to get documentation for everything. Ask questions. Do not just accept a blanket statement, even if you suspect the statement is true. Ask for the testing, the scores, the data that supports this. If no testing was done, then get a written assessment - what was said, what was done, what was his reaction and why are you saying this about my child? When the ST said that about my ds, she did describe all his behaviors with her and I also knew it was accurate because he was that way with us as well. Roxanna Re: ( ) Sensory Integration , I for one thank you for your recent post. I have a wonderful, challenging 10 yo son, in 4Th grade . He's one of those " shadow kids " . He's been to many MDS, pdocs, developmental pediatricians, and in phosp last summer for repeated self-injury and suicidical ideations. No one can spit out a dx. - we've heard bipolar, selective mutism, social phobia, anxiety, depression, Asperger's, ADD and SID. We been on many med trials, and seen " therapists " out the yin-yang. He's been in private OT since 8/06. One practice closed to peds and we had to change OTs - we started with his current ones in 11/06. The sensory diet- which we are working on completing/perfecting- does seem to be of some benefit. He loves to be " brushed " and bouncing on the large theraputic balls. However, today the OTs tell me that he is not as sensory challenged as they once thought at his initial eval. They feel he was moderately to severely sensory challenged as a younger child - learned to accomodate the best he could - which has resulted in less than desirable behaviors that are now escalating. Now the OTs are recommending Behavior Modification and want to work with us and " behavior therapists " for our sons and our family's benefit. Of course ABA is a non-covered expense , out of pocket, and I can't afford that intervention. The frustrated mom part of me can only hear I have a BAD kid and I'm a BAD parent. Deep down I know SOME of his undesirable behaviors are really out of his control- and he's not a bad kid. Today in a physicians waiting area ( after OT ) I was waiting for labs to be drawn on me. We had to wait about 20 minutes. He's not the best " waiter " in the world. He had a meltdown. Kicking , laying in the floor, rearranging the lobby etc. The fill in receptionist there yelled at him and told me to take him out. I pulled a muscle in my chest dragging him out of the lobby. I was very embarrassed, but at the same time did not want him to win my attention if he was just truly " pushing my buttons " as so much of the world likes to tell me is what is going on with my son. I was correcting him during the meltdown- but not yelling- I've learned during a meltdown nothing " goes in " anyway. The MD there knows his issues, but this was a fill in staff person. UGH !! Part of our daily lives. The OTs tell me today that they do not believe he has AS. I tend to disagree. All the research I've done sure points to AS. No one in our local area seems to know how to " test " for AS. And besides no two Aspie kids are alike so how can you really test anyway. ?? So in a nutshell- your post has helped me by letting me know that maybe all this SI therapy may not be all its cracked up to be - and starting a behavior modification program may be the way to go ?? How $$$ ??? You know it's funny - they say not AS dx. - but isn't behavior modification therapy a huge part of treatment for ASD kids ?? Kim Conner's mom ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.15.26/594 - Release Date: 12/20/2006 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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