Beautiful Minds

January 17, 2003

I had the chance to see A Beautiful Mind the other afternoon while

trying to doze rather than read or work. I got involved with the

movie....most especially when the subject of the movie, Nash,

took a moment to rationalize something that I think we all have

issues with on occasion. Nash had been into the asylum and

underwent Insulin Shock therapy and mega doses of anti-psychotic

meds that he chose to stop taking. When he stopped taking the meds,

he started his hallucinations of schizophrenia with illusions of

people that were intefering with his life. The delusions were

intense and real enough that they eventually manifested into

tangible beings that were obvious to him at the time his

psychiatrist was sitting with him asking him " are they here? "

There's something parrallel with these manifestations of Nash

and our binge issues. Nash chose not to go back to the asylum or to

go back on his anti-psychotics....in lieu of these, for the rest of

his life he chose to face his delusions that always tempt him back

towards schizophrenia, recognize what they meant and what triggers

they were to him....and then ignored them for the rest of his life.

It really is something unique in facing those delusions, demons,

temptations, etc. and just recognizing them...or learning to

recognize them and their effect on each of us, and then turn your

back on them and ignore what effect that they pose. It's something

that can be learned...even after a young life and adolescent full of

delusions; all the bad habits finally recognized and dealt with by

just turning your back and ignoring the temptations.

Our temptations are food...his temptation was sanity and a life time

full of dellusions that he was able to prevail. If you get the

chance to see this movie again...try to look at it in that frame of

mind. It was a revelation to me.

Good weekend all!!

Dan

rny 10.13.98

EdWaits,MD-Atlanta

January 18, 2003

In a message dated 1/17/03 8:31:28 PM Central Standard Time,

dlturner@... writes:

<< It's something that can be learned...even after a young life and

adolescent full of

delusions; all the bad habits finally recognized and dealt with by just

turning your back and ignoring the temptations. >>

-----------------------------

" JUST " by turning your back. OMG, Dan, I wish it were that easy for me. All

I can say is, some days I can turn my back, and some days not. The days I

can't are the ones that probably keep me on this darned plateau.

Today, so far, was better than most. I sat in a bank lobby for an hour,

waiting 2c a " personal banker " , with a coffee urn and a plateful of COOKIES

about 6 " from my right hand the whole while. Did those cookies call my name?

You bet. I opted for the coffee (sorry, Mama M, but it was caffeine or

cookies!) -- 3 cups of it (little ones, tho) and been patting myself on the

back ever since. Now WHY can I do that some times and not others?? Huh? Huh?

Carol A

January 18, 2003

In a message dated 1/18/03 9:23:17 PM Central Standard Time,

dlturner@... writes:

<< I did find a parrallel between binge eating, temptations and

inability to steer out of a compulsive feeding frenzy and Nash being

able to look his issues in the eye and tell them...adios. >>

-------------------------------

To quote Rudyard Kipling (I think?) " You're a better man than I, Gunga Din. "

Carol A

January 18, 2003

I guess the biggest point in it all is that Nash CHOSE to make a

very important decision in that he FINALLY recognized what his

demons were...make a life long change instead of medications or

hospital treatments or being put away in an asylum. Very much like

your plateful of pastries calling your name....Nash had illusions of

friends, associates and government operatives that were directing

his life for many years, and he never knew it. He only acquiesced

to a doctor that helped him see the difference between the time that

he was on medications and treatment with no illusions....and what

happened to him once he purposefully stopped taking his meds. He

either HAD to come to terms or commit himself back to the asylum.

Recognizing our demons should be a piece of cake (bad analogy

there ) in comparison. From the standpoint of what triggers us to

act in a manner that we know we would prefer not to act in weight to

what Nash had to overcome in recognizing that his long

term " relationship " with illusion and delusions were the cause of

his problems...he had a choice to make. He made the one that didn't

medicinely stop the illusions...he simply met with each one and told

them that he was no longer going to speak to them. The movie makes

a very heavy impact on self redemption from these demons.

I did find a parrallel between binge eating, temptations and

inability to steer out of a compulsive feeding frenzy and Nash being

able to look his issues in the eye and tell them...adios.

Dan

rny10.13.98

EdWaits,MD-Atlanta

> In a message dated 1/17/03 8:31:28 PM Central Standard Time,

> dlturner@b... writes:

>

> << It's something that can be learned...even after a young life

and

> adolescent full of

> delusions; all the bad habits finally recognized and dealt with

by just

> turning your back and ignoring the temptations. >>

> -----------------------------

>

> " JUST " by turning your back. OMG, Dan, I wish it were that easy

for me. All

> I can say is, some days I can turn my back, and some days not. The

days I

> can't are the ones that probably keep me on this darned plateau.

>

> Today, so far, was better than most. I sat in a bank lobby for an

hour,

> waiting 2c a " personal banker " , with a coffee urn and a plateful

of COOKIES

> about 6 " from my right hand the whole while. Did those cookies

call my name?

> You bet. I opted for the coffee (sorry, Mama M, but it was

caffeine or

> cookies!) -- 3 cups of it (little ones, tho) and been patting

myself on the

> back ever since. Now WHY can I do that some times and not others??

Huh? Huh?

>

> Carol A

January 18, 2003

I opted for the coffee (sorry, Mama M, but it was caffeine or

cookies!) -- 3 cups of it (little ones, though) and been patting myself on

the

back ever since.

************

several points earned

Any time you can win over sugar, you are winning. I don't think I could sit

next to them that long myself.

Thanks,

Vitalady, Inc. T

www.vitalady.com

If you are interested in PayPal, please click here:

https://secure.paypal.com/affil/pal=vitalady%40bigfoot.com

Re: Beautiful Minds

> In a message dated 1/17/03 8:31:28 PM Central Standard Time,

> dlturner@... writes:

>

> << It's something that can be learned...even after a young life and

> adolescent full of

> delusions; all the bad habits finally recognized and dealt with by just

> turning your back and ignoring the temptations. >>

> -----------------------------

>

> " JUST " by turning your back. OMG, Dan, I wish it were that easy for me.

All

> I can say is, some days I can turn my back, and some days not. The days I

> can't are the ones that probably keep me on this darned plateau.

>

> Today, so far, was better than most. I sat in a bank lobby for an hour,

> waiting 2c a " personal banker " , with a coffee urn and a plateful of

COOKIES

> about 6 " from my right hand the whole while. Did those cookies call my

name?

> You bet. I opted for the coffee (sorry, Mama M, but it was caffeine or

> cookies!) -- 3 cups of it (little ones, tho) and been patting myself on

the

> back ever since. Now WHY can I do that some times and not others?? Huh?

Huh?

>

> Carol A

>

> Homepage: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Graduate-OSSG

>

> Unsubscribe: mailto:Graduate-OSSG-unsubscribe

>

January 18, 2003

In a message dated 1/18/2003 10:22:52 PM Eastern Standard Time,

dlturner@... writes:

> I did find a parallel between binge eating, temptations and

> inability to steer out of a compulsive feeding frenzy and Nash being

> able to look his issues in the eye and tell them...adios.

>

Is this a true, verifiable story? Because I never met a schiz who was able

to even know what was happening when not on meds. In order for them to be

able to make a choice, they have to know there is a choice to be made. I

love the analogy you made. But When I was having my child I had an epidural.

Then an intern came in and told me to push. When the doc came in I was

crying, feeling like such a failure because I was not pushing. The doc told

me that the epi made it impossible for me to push.

What I understand, is that when the survival instinct takes over, we have no

choice.

Fay Bayuk

300/175

10/23/01

Dr

January 19, 2003

Dan, you are telling me what people have told me my whole life. Does this

mean that I will eventually fail this surgery like I have failed every diet

before, because I do not have the will to overcome. Actually, I never failed

to take it off, only to keep it off long term. My will does not stand the

test of time.

Fay Bayuk

300/175

10/23/01

Dr

January 19, 2003

Dan, I have a very bad habit of leaving these wonderful discussions. When I

was younger I always had to have the last word, now I find myself giving up

too soon. Especially when they are as fulfilling as this one. So I will

just rest it for now and come back later. Gotta love this Internet

..

Fay Bayuk -

January 19, 2003

In a message dated 1/19/2003 10:26:39 AM Eastern Standard Time,

fbayuk@... writes:

<< Dan, you are telling me what people have told me my whole life. Does this

mean that I will eventually fail this surgery like I have failed every diet

before, because I do not have the will to overcome. Actually, I never

failed

to take it off, only to keep it off long term. My will does not stand the

test of time. >>

Faye, I don't know what Dan's message said about eventually failing cause I'm

200 messages behind, reading fast and hitting the delete key, but I have to

respond to you. I failed at every diet for 30 years, gaining about 180

pounds in the process. In lots of ways I feel that I've failed at this as

well cause I've only lost 95 pounds in 17 months and have another 70 pounds

to go if I am to meet the standards of those height/weight charts. But

things are different for me this time. Reading Sugar Busters helped me more

than anything to resist sweets cause now I don't think about the tastes I am

missing, I think about the chemical disaster I impose upon myself if I eat

those things. I am not slender enough to be conventionally attractive or

fashionable but I am not longer trapped in that hell of fat that took away my

ability to really live, and I don't think I'll ever allow myself to go back

there. I don't believe you will either.

B

January 19, 2003

Yep....it really is an inspiring movie that sort of takes on the

rationale for medications and the then popular insulin coma

treatments of that time. I think Nash wrapped it up in part of his

interview with PBS in which he states something to the effect that

medication simply brings the afflicted to a point of being able to

recover on their own (not quoting you understand)...and being a

mathematician he was curious if medications were actually needed for

many patients. Pointing back to earlier times where meds didn't

exist for such conditions...it was a matter of finding that right

point in time and conciousness wherein someone was able to put their

life on track. His comments were somewhat negative towards the

medications as he felt certain that if he continued, he'd never be

able to fulfill his potential as a mathematician...and felt certain

that he went back to the asylum, that he'd never leave alive.

Anyhow...there's a lot of Nash information dealing with his

illness and his award of the Nobel Prize in a simple search. But

there's a short snipet interview located at:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/nash/

...that might be of some help.

He does allow that the movie version of his story overemphasizes a

few things about his hallucinations (dat's Hollywood) but in essence

it's a great tale of a guy that had years of real mental trouble; the

best medical intervention of the era and then took it upon himself to

realize what he couldn't realize before and then set out to bring

himself under control...in the meantime...winning the Nobel Prize for

a mathematical theory.

Dan

rny10.13.98

EdWaits,MD-Atlanta

> In a message dated 1/18/2003 10:22:52 PM Eastern Standard Time,

> dlturner@b... writes:

>

> > I did find a parallel between binge eating, temptations and

> > inability to steer out of a compulsive feeding frenzy and Nash

being

> > able to look his issues in the eye and tell them...adios.

> >

>

> Is this a true, verifiable story? Because I never met a schiz who

was able

> to even know what was happening when not on meds. In order for

them to be

> able to make a choice, they have to know there is a choice to be

made. I

> love the analogy you made. But When I was having my child I had an

epidural.

> Then an intern came in and told me to push. When the doc came in

I was

> crying, feeling like such a failure because I was not pushing. The

doc told

> me that the epi made it impossible for me to push.

>

> What I understand, is that when the survival instinct takes over,

we have no

> choice.

>

> Fay Bayuk

> 300/175

> 10/23/01

> Dr

>

January 19, 2003

Well, I am of the male gender....testosterone poisoned, but no

better.

I guess the basis to this whole thread is a)finding that point in

time in which you can recognize all the little tentacles pulling at

you in different directions, b)finding out where you source of

strength is...internally or inspired from outside, b)putting your

issues in front of you...staring them down so that you recognize

them, d)most importantly...how you react to them when you recognize

them in those days where you're not at a).

Pretty much like the guy that picks up the hot skillet and tosses it

back down...he won't do that again. Should you recognize

your " triggers " and simply toss them down or walk away...given enough

time and practice (habits are broken in a matter of weeks...picked up

in matter of seconds)...you can avoid all those hot skillets.

In essence...if the membership recognizes that they have an eating

problem that they want to conquer...ya gotta know when you're doing

it and before you head towards the cookie jar, fridge or

freezer...that flashbulb goes off and you just don't do it. Enough

of those flashbulbs going off over a period of time has to lead to a

better habit or a loss of an old, less desired habit.

I know by experience that my pre-op habits are just waiting to pounce

on me and kick me around...and if you anlogize that by walking in a

bad neighborhood or criminally infested park, knowing that the odds

are pretty much against you to get through without getting

clobbered....you'll avoid that area. I made up my mind NOT to eat

another hamburger pre-op in 1998....and I was a BIG afficianado of

the double cheese at Mcs, but it's been since October 1998 that

I've had one....or any hamburger for that matter. Don't even desire

one any longer...and haven't for a couple of years.

But out of all of the temptations being thrust in front of each of

us, that's only one. I've got this bad feeling that I'd grab a

double cheese and then the next one and the next one...so, I avoid

them completely and as I drive by Mcs...I just say, " adios! "

Jerry Lee had a better saying about Gungha Dinh....

" I'm hanging in....like Gungha Dinh!! " and that's what all of us are

doing. But there are people getting paid HUGE amounts of money to

tempt us...and everybody else for that matter. All we can do is

recognize those " demon ADs " and turn away.

Hangin' in!!!

Dan

rny10.13.98

EdWaits,MD-Atlanta

> In a message dated 1/18/03 9:23:17 PM Central Standard Time,

> dlturner@b... writes:

>

> << I did find a parrallel between binge eating, temptations and

> inability to steer out of a compulsive feeding frenzy and Nash

being

> able to look his issues in the eye and tell them...adios. >>

> -------------------------------

>

> To quote Rudyard Kipling (I think?) " You're a better man than I,

Gunga Din. "

>

> Carol A

January 19, 2003

Actually, A Beautiful Mind, is a true story. Now, I think the movie was

imbellished a little for entertainment but not so much that it affected

the story. Nash won several scientific awards, if I remember

correctly. He may have even written the book.

Lori Owen - Denton, Texas

CHF 4/14/01 479 lbs.

SRVG 7/16/01 401 lbs.

Current Weight 339.5 lbs. and loosing again

Dr. Ritter/Dr. Bryce

On Sun, 19 Jan 2003 04:41:11 EST fbayuk@... writes:

> In a message dated 1/18/2003 10:22:52 PM Eastern Standard Time,

> dlturner@... writes:

>

> > I did find a parallel between binge eating, temptations and

> > inability to steer out of a compulsive feeding frenzy and Nash

> being

> > able to look his issues in the eye and tell them...adios.

> >

>

> Is this a true, verifiable story? Because I never met a schiz who

> was able

> to even know what was happening when not on meds. In order for them

> to be

> able to make a choice, they have to know there is a choice to be

> made. I

> love the analogy you made. But When I was having my child I had an

> epidural.

> Then an intern came in and told me to push. When the doc came in I

> was

> crying, feeling like such a failure because I was not pushing. The

> doc told

> me that the epi made it impossible for me to push.

>

> What I understand, is that when the survival instinct takes over, we

> have no

> choice.

>

> Fay Bayuk

> 300/175

> 10/23/01

> Dr

>

January 19, 2003

YES...this is " based " on a true story. From what I hear from some people it

is pretty " loosely " based. Mostly certain things like, is wife did not come

back, he thought he was a mouse most of his life! As far as him coming off

meds and succeeding I do believe that part is true....... P. That is

why there was all that stink with whether or not it should be up for the

" award " ...because of all the made up/changed stuff......but they decided

that this was ridiculous because movies can win whether they are fictional

or not!!!!

Re: Re: Beautiful Minds

> In a message dated 1/18/2003 10:22:52 PM Eastern Standard Time,

> dlturner@... writes:

>

> > I did find a parallel between binge eating, temptations and

> > inability to steer out of a compulsive feeding frenzy and Nash being

> > able to look his issues in the eye and tell them...adios.

> >

>

> Is this a true, verifiable story? Because I never met a schiz who was

able

> to even know what was happening when not on meds. In order for them to be

> able to make a choice, they have to know there is a choice to be made. I

> love the analogy you made. But When I was having my child I had an

epidural.

> Then an intern came in and told me to push. When the doc came in I was

> crying, feeling like such a failure because I was not pushing. The doc

told

> me that the epi made it impossible for me to push.

>

> What I understand, is that when the survival instinct takes over, we have

no

> choice.

>

> Fay Bayuk

> 300/175

> 10/23/01

> Dr

>

January 19, 2003

Now Fay....don't start that self-fulfilling stuff into this thread.

No....if you're having troubles with your eating habits, look at what can be

accomplished via the example of someone else. Your plumbing has been

upgraded...you should be pretty resricted in what you take in PHYSICALLY and

unless you've built up a tolerance to sugars and fats, you should be

restricted in what types of food you'll consume. Some of the guess work has

been taken out of your hands...but fine tuning your habits is recognizing

what your issues are...past failings and current problems...and then doing

something about it.

If you're eating sugars and you couldn't during the " Honeymoon "

period....then knock off the sugars. If you're consuming a bag of potato

chips without ill effect....stop that. You can build up tolerances to both

fats and sugars and defeat the by-pass end results of the RnY. Like

everyone else, I know what I can do and I tempt fate on the occasion for the

past few years....but, I don't do it everyday and not very often at that.

I'll be honest....FOR ONCE....personally, I've been under the pressure of

something that I literally detest with all my being for the past 1.5 years.

I am a life long musician (piano)....I compose in my mind and translate it

to the keyboards in new work and improvisational work. As well, I work as a

pro consultant to legal firms to provide reports, testimony and expert

opinion....I use the noggin all day everyday and work, compose and type this

in what used to be pin-drop silence. 1.5 years ago, I came up with a little

ringing in my right ear....at first it was funny; " something that would go

away " evenutally. A month later, it was a bit of a concern because it

didn't go away...it progressively got louder. I had to share that big

empty, library quiet cavern between my ears with some sort of a dentist

drill....24 hours a day, 7 days a week. No shutting it off. No turning

down the volume. It's called Tinnitus and it's here while I type this to

each of you.

I was a mess for the last year. Anxieties from the revelation of not being

able to control something as simple as peace & quiet; realizing that I'll

never be able to sit in a quiet room without hearing this dentist drill

working away in my mind. Staying up to 3am to fall asleep by physical and

mental exhaustion...getting up at 6am to start the day. I see members of

the two support groups for Tinnitus that I belong to that have taken the

last step by taking their own lives because it was too much to cope with in

the early days or created such a burden even after acceptance that they've

lost family, friends and employment.

As much as I enjoy being funny here...we'll set aside the cute stuff for a

moment, because it's important to stress that like RnY...it's life altering

for me. I'm coping and doing well....now. Good days and bad days...but day

by day. Sometimes I feel like a sugar binge just to knock me out and

sometimes I mistakenly stay up too late with a small bowl of almonds,

raisins and chocolate chips. But, I don't do this often as much as I'd

probably try to rationalize why I deserve the extra Sugar jolt and the

comfort food. Still go to the gym and I still stay out of fast fooderies.

There are a lot of worse horror stories out there dealing with personal

conflicts, physical challenges and financial ruin...but, I've accepted my

dentist drill via simple habituation; accept that most folks that know about

it forget about what I hear and feel because there's no bandages nor grey

matter dripping out my ears; and accepted that I've still got a job to do in

respect to my rny surgeon, Ed Waits, MD.

I take the surgery and outcome as seriously as I take my Tinnitus and how a

musician copes with something that inteferes at all hours (not even a

melodic tone) or a consultant that composes from field notes and yieldings

from my personal library can work with such a noise going on at all times.

I hate it.

But...having said all that, there's not a self-fulfilling premise to

anything that I do in the negative connotation. I don't want to gain weight

back...so, I realize what my failings are and avoid them. I don't want to

go nutzoid with my inner noise factory...so, I realize my failings and try

to avoid them.

I'm no stronger than any member here...but, I must allow that I would NEVER

admit that I can't control my will over the test of time. I will admit that

I've been challenged by my will and faced up to my failings and found some

sort of solution. Combining the stresses of work, music and Tinnitus has

been a major undertaking to deal with each day...but it's very necessary to

myself that I agree with myself NOT to let old habits take over. If I can

clear the fog each day and not allow something else to control me...tangible

or intangible...I'm a step closer to success. Fay...you've got to figure

out what works for you and make the changes.

I don't mean to come off as a Dutch Uncle...but <<<

>> " snap out of it!! " Or as Stuart Smalley would allow.... " that's

just stinkin' thinkin'!! When I fly with someone and he/she

says.... " you've got the controls. " That's exactly right...it's up to ME to

fly or die.

Sooooo....you've got the controls kid.

Dan

rny10.13.98

EdWaits,MD-Atlanta

Re: Re: Beautiful Minds

Dan, you are telling me what people have told me my whole life. Does this

mean that I will eventually fail this surgery like I have failed every diet

before, because I do not have the will to overcome. Actually, I never

failed to take it off, only to keep it off long term. My will does not

stand the test of time.

Fay Bayuk

300/175

10/23/01

Dr

January 19, 2003

When I was younger?

Gaaaaaaaa....I'm turning 50 in April (that is April 7th....favorite colors

are blue; chocolate chip cookies; 46 Long jacket; St. 's Bay

Rum....other gift choices upon request). When I was younger I didn't talk

this much...I find a shot of B12 brings out the loquacity in me.

I'll save Sue Rudnicki the trouble....she would probably write " more like

SmartAssedeyLoquacity. "

Dan

rny10.13.98

EdWaits,MD-Atlanta

Re: Re: Beautiful Minds

Dan, I have a very bad habit of leaving these wonderful discussions. When I

was younger I always had to have the last word, now I find myself giving up

too soon. Especially when they are as fulfilling as this one. So I will

just rest it for now and come back later. Gotta love this Internet

..

Fay Bayuk -

January 19, 2003

In a message dated 1/19/03 3:42:03 AM Central Standard Time, fbayuk@...

writes:

<< What I understand, is that when the survival instinct takes over, we have

no

choice. >>

--------------------------

Yes, Fay, yes. And I think there have been studies done showing how strong

that instinct is, that it can override even the most earnest desire to

control eating.

Carol A

January 19, 2003

In a message dated 1/19/03 10:20:49 AM Central Standard Time,

dlturner@... writes:

<< I don't mean to come off as a Dutch Uncle...but <<<

>> " snap out of it!! " Or as Stuart Smalley would allow.... " that's

just stinkin' thinkin'!! When I fly with someone and he/she

says.... " you've got the controls. " That's exactly right...it's up to ME to

fly or die. >>

--------------------------------

I guess you'd make a good doc, Dan. When the surgery doesn't work, blame the

patient. Call her non-compliant.

There ARE a few of us for whom it just didn't happen: I mean the help most

people get from the restriction part of the surgery. Yeah, I got SOME

malabsorption, and maybe a modicum of restriction, but not enuf to make me

feel full with the amount of food that makes most others feel full.

And I do pretty much know what my triggers are. Problem is, added to those

old emotional or mental or whatever triggers, there's the added trigger of

nearly constant hunger. I've fought the demons enuf to lose 115 lbs. But I am

tired, weary to death of fighting the demon this surgery was supposed to kill

FOR me. And now, on top of all that, while I'm still fighting the good fight,

and still following all the rules and regs and doing what I was doing while I

lost the 115, my body has decided to be non-compliant too. And I've lost not

one ounce in 6 months.

Slappin' me around isn't going to snap me out of anything, except maybe my

determination to not give up. And it doesn't feel very supportive. I don't

expect you to have the answers for me. But it'd be nice if you recognized

we're all different and maybe can't all have the steel you're made of. Fay, I

do know where you're coming from. And Dan, I'm truly sorry that you have

another problem to deal with besides the eating.

Carol A

January 19, 2003

Dan...you are singing my tune!! As a chronic pain sufferer, and having a

terrific case of tinnutis, AND and MO woman who is now in remission, I can

relate to all that you are saying! I may be ahead of the game, as I have had

a " dissociative " disorder all my life..or at least since age 3. So, I do

believe it comes easier to me. As a fully integrated person, I can relegate

the infernal ringing and clicking in my ears to a different portion of my

brain, the same with most pain. I can sit and focus on it, and it would

drive me nutz for sure. But I can't live my life like that. I also cannot

live my life (albeit it would have been a shorter life) MO anymore either.

So, I choose not to listen to the ringing and clicking, and I choose not to

focus on my pain. I also choose what I put in my mouth and what I don't. To

me, I'm not better than anyone else, it is how I cope, and come out ahead of

the game. Dissociation was a coping mechanism for me in the past, now I can

use it for my benefit further. It's not the same as denial, but just a

relegation to another portion of my brain so that it is no longer my main

focus. It's all still there...but it is how we choose to cope. Sanity and

health are very high on my priority list, so I do what is necessary to remain

both. I've been enjoying this thought provoking thread a lot. Thanks for

starting it.

Regards~

´¨¨)) -:¦:-

¸.·´ .·´¨¨))

((¸¸.·´ ..·´ -:¦:- Jacque

-:¦:- ((¸¸.·´*

> But...having said all that, there's not a self-fulfilling premise to

> anything that I do in the negative connotation. I don't want to gain

> weight

> back...so, I realize what my failings are and avoid them. I don't want to

> go nutzoid with my inner noise factory...so, I realize my failings and try

> to avoid them.

January 20, 2003

Jacque...

Thanks for the note and the admission of being a fellow T person. I

think over the past year and a half, I've had to find a lot of

associations between what problems exist and how to deal with them;

how one set of issues has an effect on the other and how easy it is

to doze off with a change in mind for the next morning...and then

something has changed to alter the resolve to make that change

overnight. In reality, nothing has changed except perspective (and a

little brain rest, clarity and neurons firing as smooth as a V8);

what was a real problem seems insignificant the next morning...the

only difference is how your view has altered.

Crisis management is one way of looking at some issues. I deal with

some stuff out of frustration in a heavy handed way....Dan in the

China Shoppe....but, after a while I've learned that it's the slow

sure route that makes the difference. It's not really setting goals

as much as it is...for me...just tweaking and fine tuning the things

that make positive changes. In pursuit of the big red handled lever

to pull (the big switch) that would make everything fall into place

in one action....I was missing the point on all the little switches

that needed to be turned on or off first. The only big switch is the

constant for me has been the RNY surgery...everything else needs to

phase in that general direction to make it continue to work.

And likewise my Tinnitus; whether I want to deal with it or not...I

end up having to deal with it. It could mean curling up in a fetal

ball on the floor...a definite waste of time ...or finding the cure

du jour. Today...it's going to be me at my desk with a little white

noise/waves on the ocean type of sound generator right behind my

head. Tomorrow, it may be banging my head on the desk until I knock

myself out....or turning on some music. The next day....skipping

work and going to a movie.....or, skipping work and going to a movie!

A bunch of little goals and gimmicks to achieve what's necessary. Oh

yeah...one other thing!! My MD prescribed MASSAGE THERAPY...since

part of me is " ON " all the time by the tinnitus, I do tend to bunch

up in the shoulders and neck, so going on over to the " Love Ya Long

Time Massage Parlor " has been an experience!!! When my wife

complains, I just pull out the paper from the MD and say: " Doctor's

Orders!! "

Thanks for the note....good luck on the clicks and chirps.

Dan

rny 10.13.98

EdWaits,MD-Atlanta

> Dan...you are singing my tune!! As a chronic pain sufferer, and

having a

> terrific case of tinnutis, AND and MO woman who is now in

remission, I can

> relate to all that you are saying! I may be ahead of the game, as

I have had

> a " dissociative " disorder all my life..or at least since age 3.

So, I do

> believe it comes easier to me. As a fully integrated person, I can

relegate

> the infernal ringing and clicking in my ears to a different portion

of my

> brain, the same with most pain. I can sit and focus on it, and it

would

> drive me nutz for sure. But I can't live my life like that. I

also cannot

> live my life (albeit it would have been a shorter life) MO anymore

either.

> So, I choose not to listen to the ringing and clicking, and I

choose not to

> focus on my pain. I also choose what I put in my mouth and what I

don't. To

> me, I'm not better than anyone else, it is how I cope, and come out

ahead of

> the game. Dissociation was a coping mechanism for me in the past,

now I can

> use it for my benefit further. It's not the same as denial, but

just a

> relegation to another portion of my brain so that it is no longer

my main

> focus. It's all still there...but it is how we choose to cope.

Sanity and

> health are very high on my priority list, so I do what is necessary

to remain

> both. I've been enjoying this thought provoking thread a lot.

Thanks for

> starting it.

>

> Regards~

> ´¨¨)) -:¦:-

> ¸.·´ .·´¨¨))

> ((¸¸.·´ ..·´ -:¦:- Jacque

> -:¦:- ((¸¸.·´*

>

> > But...having said all that, there's not a self-fulfilling premise

to

> > anything that I do in the negative connotation. I don't want to

gain

> > weight

> > back...so, I realize what my failings are and avoid them. I

don't want to

> > go nutzoid with my inner noise factory...so, I realize my

failings and try

> > to avoid them.

>

January 20, 2003

Oh Carol.........I don't think you are alone in this whatsoever........I

could have written your post!!! I am working VERY, VERY hard at trying to

come to grips with the fact that I will probably NOT lose anymore weight,

and if I want to keep my sanity intact I have to try and move on over to the

" maintenance " mode. I am sooo battle fatigued it isn't even funny. Some

days I get so discouraged that I actually have a fleeting moment were I

think to myself " I just don't care any more, just eat what the heck I want

and screw the working out " ........then I picture myself at 250!! For me, I

have found that the battle is much easier when I actually see progress i.e,

the scale move.....to work so hard everyday, and see the scale remain the

same for 15 months now is extremely depressing. Maintenance is a non

existent thought pattern for me........I am working really hard to try and

figure out just what it is. I once heard a story where someone was asking

someone (I think it was God) how to get fit and healthy......God showed him

a 2 ton boulder and said " try and move it from where it is to over there (10

yards)......the man got up every day and pushed and pushed that

boulder.......sweating and straining, day after day. Finally after a year

or so God came back to check on the man......God asked how he was doing, the

man was furious..... " Terrible!! " The man replied, " I got up everyday and

pushed and pushed that rock, and NOTHING, I didn't even move it an inch!!

WHY would you do that to me, give me a task that you KNEW I couldn't

complete!! " God replied " Wait a minute, I thought that your desire was to

become fit and healthy? " " It was. " replied the man. " Well, step back and

take a look at yourself, your arms and legs are strong and muscular now,

your heart is strong and healthy, your skin is tan and glowing, your are the

picture of health!! " " But I FAILED, I didn't move the rock even one inch!! "

That wasn't your goal replied the Lord, THAT was the means to your goal! "

I remind myself of this story daily......maintenance is too foreign of a

concept for me. I have to keep telling myself that 2 years ago I couldn't

do anything, I couldn't move off of the recliner. Now I have lost 90 lbs, I

exercise, I work, I shop and hopefully I am a lot healthier (my goal). I

hate the demon that keeps telling me that because I am not 110 lbs that I

have failed. And I agree with you......if it were as simplistic as " mind

over matter " than most of probably wouldn't have needed this surgery. This

surgery works for 90-95% of people........I often wonder " who " is the 5-10%

and " why " ..........sorry this got so long, just needed to

share......... P.

---- Original Message -----

To: dlturner@...>; FBayuk@...>;

Graduate-OSSG >

Sent: Sunday, January 19, 2003 11:57 PM

Subject: Re: Re: Beautiful Minds

> In a message dated 1/19/03 10:20:49 AM Central Standard Time,

> dlturner@... writes:

>

> << I don't mean to come off as a Dutch Uncle...but <<<

SLAP!!!>>> " snap out of it!! " Or as Stuart Smalley would

allow.... " that's

> just stinkin' thinkin'!! When I fly with someone and he/she

> says.... " you've got the controls. " That's exactly right...it's up to ME

to

> fly or die. >>

> --------------------------------

>

> I guess you'd make a good doc, Dan. When the surgery doesn't work, blame

the

> patient. Call her non-compliant.

>

> There ARE a few of us for whom it just didn't happen: I mean the help most

> people get from the restriction part of the surgery. Yeah, I got SOME

> malabsorption, and maybe a modicum of restriction, but not enuf to make me

> feel full with the amount of food that makes most others feel full.

>

> And I do pretty much know what my triggers are. Problem is, added to those

> old emotional or mental or whatever triggers, there's the added trigger of

> nearly constant hunger. I've fought the demons enuf to lose 115 lbs. But I

am

> tired, weary to death of fighting the demon this surgery was supposed to

kill

> FOR me. And now, on top of all that, while I'm still fighting the good

fight,

> and still following all the rules and regs and doing what I was doing

while I

> lost the 115, my body has decided to be non-compliant too. And I've lost

not

> one ounce in 6 months.

>

> Slappin' me around isn't going to snap me out of anything, except maybe my

> determination to not give up. And it doesn't feel very supportive. I don't

> expect you to have the answers for me. But it'd be nice if you recognized

> we're all different and maybe can't all have the steel you're made of.

Fay, I

> do know where you're coming from. And Dan, I'm truly sorry that you have

> another problem to deal with besides the eating.

>

> Carol A

>

> Homepage: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Graduate-OSSG

>

> Unsubscribe: mailto:Graduate-OSSG-unsubscribe

>

January 20, 2003

Allright....I accept.

What are YOUR answers going to be? I can only express as best I can

what works and continues to work for me. You can take, heed or

completely discount the suggestions, success and failure stories by

all the membership here and apply them to your particular scenario or

not. I've tried to make up my mind over the past couple of years

what I don't want to happen...and yes, if I come off a bit harsh it's

probably because I was at a pity party for long enough that I wanted

out and did the RnY.

I went into surgery for a couple of hundred reasons...now gone. If I

started to pack it back on this morning....I won't be blaming the

surgeon; I'll be blaming the non-compliant patient. Me.

You need your pluck and determination to accomplish anything that's

out of the norm...this is one of those issues out of the norm. If

you're looking for supportive, I'm not sure what else I or anyone

else here can do except lend you experiences and hope that something

jives with your current status. I can read that you're frustrated in

not having lost where you want to be and that you've not lost

anything in 6 months....it's a big boat; welcome aboard. 115 pounds

is a HUGE success for anyone....that may be as low as you go without

another angle of attack. Mine was to increase the metabolic rate by

going to gym 3 times a week...when that faltered; doubling up on the

cardio while there and moving more big muscles. My MD advised me

that exercise was and will be a big key to getting to goal...but,

I've never made it to the Met Life Actuarial goal weight...at 6'5.5 "

my NORMAL weight should be 218 lbs.

Excuse me whilst I picks myself up off the floor from laughing. 218

pounds is ludicrous at my height...it's an unobtainable goal (or at

least unrealistic) for my build and size. I'm at least 30 pounds

from that goal and I only realized how impossible it would be to get

to after my Ex-wife took a look at a picture and her calm, subdued,

well thought out and heartfelt way allowed that " you look like hell. "

Given the thought that a POed Ex would be more than glad to see me

wind up looking like skeletal remains...I chose to lay off on going

much lower by leveling up intake against caloric output. It's just

simple math.

The support that anyone can give you here is a lot of rationales why

as to what MAY be your case...but, you're the ONLY one that can find

out the answers to your problem and come back and let everyone know

what they are. You can take offense to anything that I say...it's

tough love for all, from me to you as fellow WLS'ers...but when one

route doesn't get you where you want to go, try another.

Good luck

Dan

rny10.13.98

EdWaits,MD-Atlanta

> In a message dated 1/19/03 10:20:49 AM Central Standard Time,

> dlturner@b... writes:

>

> << I don't mean to come off as a Dutch Uncle...but <<<

SLAP!!!>>> " snap out of it!! " Or as Stuart Smalley would

allow.... " that's

> just stinkin' thinkin'!! When I fly with someone and he/she

> says.... " you've got the controls. " That's exactly right...it's up

to ME to

> fly or die. >>

> --------------------------------

>

> I guess you'd make a good doc, Dan. When the surgery doesn't work,

blame the

> patient. Call her non-compliant.

>

> There ARE a few of us for whom it just didn't happen: I mean the

help most

> people get from the restriction part of the surgery. Yeah, I got

SOME

> malabsorption, and maybe a modicum of restriction, but not enuf to

make me

> feel full with the amount of food that makes most others feel full.

>

> And I do pretty much know what my triggers are. Problem is, added

to those

> old emotional or mental or whatever triggers, there's the added

trigger of

> nearly constant hunger. I've fought the demons enuf to lose 115

lbs. But I am

> tired, weary to death of fighting the demon this surgery was

supposed to kill

> FOR me. And now, on top of all that, while I'm still fighting the

good fight,

> and still following all the rules and regs and doing what I was

doing while I

> lost the 115, my body has decided to be non-compliant too. And I've

lost not

> one ounce in 6 months.

>

> Slappin' me around isn't going to snap me out of anything, except

maybe my

> determination to not give up. And it doesn't feel very supportive.

I don't

> expect you to have the answers for me. But it'd be nice if you

recognized

> we're all different and maybe can't all have the steel you're made

of. Fay, I

> do know where you're coming from. And Dan, I'm truly sorry that you

have

> another problem to deal with besides the eating.

>

> Carol A

January 20, 2003

In a message dated 1/20/2003 4:04:12 PM Eastern Standard Time,

dlturner@... writes:

> I know..that was an insurance slam, but...it felt good.

>

felt good hearing it too.

Fay Bayuk

300/175

10/23/01

Dr

January 20, 2003

> So, I just

> want to ask people struggling with the last amount of

> weight they EXPECT themselves to lose, is your goal realistic.

>

**********************

Ah, Judy, there's the rub. This is my big gripe with newbies (other

than " Have I stretched my pouch? " -no offense to all Undergrads on

list). Having a number set as a goal weight is a recipe for

disaster, IMNSHO. It's unrealistic, at best, and a setup for

depression and/or feelings of failure, at worst.

My original surgeon never asked me if I had a goal weight, but a year

later, when sitting with Dr. Gagner at my follow-up for the stomach

transection, he asked me if I had one. At that time, I was about 235

pounds, I think. I told him that I'd love to get to 150, but I

didn't think that was realistic, and I'd be happy with 175. He

smiled and said that's very realistic. Incredibly, at 3 1/2 years

out, I'm still losing maybe 10 pounds a year. No rhyme or reason

because I'm definitely not the nutritional poster child for this

surgery.

I also believe that those of us who were fat children have a much

tougher time getting into the " normal " chart weights. I know I don't

have that signal that tells me I'm full. It's just not there. Now,

with surgery, I know the feeling that another bite will have me in

the bathroom pretty quick, although, sometimes I ignore it and pay

for it anyway.

Sorry about the ramble. It's just that goal thing...to me, every

extra pound is a gift.

in NJ

306/155/whatever

January 20, 2003

Hey Dan~

Glad to oblige, and thanks for the tips...white noise and massage. Both

sound quite appealing to add to my bag of tricks. Tonight, hunger became a

real focus for me....so to ward it off, I just threw in an extra protein

shake...a better choice than what my brain would have decided on had I given

it it's head. So, I probably didn't get the full benefit of all 60

grams....but it shut off the hunger mechanism rapidly. I do that about every

3 months or so. I think it all boils down to choices, and using what we can

to divert the problems. I consider myself fortunate to be able to remove

myself from unpleasant situations. It is not of gift of all people. Glad we

have this list and are able to share what works and what doesn't. If nothing

else, it's a fascinating study in human nature. At best, we can glean a lot

of things that we might try to help ourselves with. I got a chuckle out of

" Dan in the China Shoppe. " I was just saying today, that I'm a fool that

rushes in where angels fear to tread. Only realize that after the fact,

someday, maybe I will have all the tweaking and refinements down

pat...(remember the movie, " What About Bob? " Baby steps?) but by then, it

will probably be time to cash in the old chips. We are all works in

progress. =)

The more I think of it, the more appealing it seems to me. I'm going to get

out my tape recorder and my headset, and play some nice soothing sounds for

myself......a reward for putting up with this constant infernal racket in my

head. I, too, carry a lot of stress in my neck and shoulders. Have knots

like golf balls back there. I don't think " Love Ya Long Time Massage Parlor "

is up my alley, haha! Think if my husband suggested frequenting a place with

that name, I would insist on being present for the therapy. HA! Here's to

your long suffering wife...LOL!

Regards~

´¨¨)) -:¦:-

¸.·´ .·´¨¨))

((¸¸.·´ ..·´ -:¦:- Jacque

-:¦:- ((¸¸.·´*

Dr. Fox/Oh 5/30/00

Distal RNY

BMI beginning 50.0

BMI now 21.0