Guest guest Posted November 3, 2006 Report Share Posted November 3, 2006 You are very wise !! :0))) [low dose naltrexone] LDN in the AM Hi Folks .. I posted this edited version on the Goodshape board .. I would like to add my 2 cents here ...To begin, I don't believe that there is any personal animosity between Dr Bihari and Dr Zagon .. they are two professionals in completely different fields so have different viewpoints as to the best way to get LDN to the masses. It is true that Dr Zagon provided the spark in his lab for Dr Biharis clincal vision back in the 80's. Today, they both believe in LDN and see the wonderful potential very clearly .. they are both very intelligent. They both know that LDN works. They are from two different schools of thought, clinical and lab. They cannot be compared and to side with one makes no sense. The truth is all that matters. Both are wonderful people in my opinion. I have the utmost respect for each of them. I like the idea that science is not a belief but the will to find facts.Dr Zagon does believe that LDN can be taken in the morning. If he is correct, that will save many people a lot of headaches. Dr Mir in Germany also gave LDN in the morning to bypass the sleepless nights .. and I think Dr Jill did the same at some point. They all got results. The German study did not show statistically significant results but the people all felt the results .. that highlighted the problem with scientific trials .. it is not always easy to make the results you see and feel, appear statistically significant in a trial. Dr Bihari believes that LDN works 'best' when taken between 9PM and 2AM .. he does not rule out potential benefits from taking it at other times. Dr Bihari believes for the maximum LDN effect .. ie to stop MS progression, LDN must be taken between 9PM and 2AM. That is because he believes endorphin production (the tripling of such endorphins nightly by the way is the primary mechanism by which LDN works according to Dr Bihari's clinical results) is affected by the circadian rhythm. That is the protocol human success stories to date have followed. Dr Bihari has treated the most people so it would seem sensible for now to stick with his protocol if possible. If Dr Bihari's protocol is not physically possible then it is sensible to test Dr Zagon's theory instead of abandoning LDN altogether. Dr Zagon has referenced scientific papers that would suggest the circadian rhythm does not affect LDN because Met-enkephalin (enkephalin) does not have any circadian rhythm in humans according to the published Shanks et al. paper. You see Dr Zagon's lab results have led him to believes that LDN works primarily by elevating met-enkephalin. (I also know that Dr Bihari knows that met enkephalin plays a significant role in the, as of yet, rather elusive LDN mechanism) However, when all is said and done, Dr Bihari and Dr Zagon would agree on much of the puzzle pieces I have been given so far .. to me that is very exciting. Juice is correct to question the whole thing and to go in search of answers that suit her best. We are all pioneers here. We must assume all people are intelligent enough to see the data we currently have and make an intelligent decision that suits them best. As a community, the LDN community is more than capable of breaking all the rules and testing every limit .. that is the type of people we all are. We must be careful not to close our minds to every possibility. It was our open minds that got us this far. We must keep our hearts and minds respectfully open until we cross the finish line. The finish line being a full scale clinical trial for LDN and MS. Science can only ascertain what is, but not what should be, and outside of its domain value judgments of all kinds remain necessary. Albert Einstein (1879-1955) U. S. physicist, born in Germany.All the Best Bradleywww.marybradleybooks.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 3, 2006 Report Share Posted November 3, 2006 mary if you go back and listen to jill smith she clearly states in that in her research with crohns that she doesn't think that ldn works the same way it works with ms patients. if its not on the dvd its on the audio on the ldn webpage. my initial reaction, yes fueled by frustration, was more mother hen. there's more work out there than dr biharis and dr zagons. and when you look at the data for hundreds of patients who mostly have ms who are doing well and the major side effect with sleep disturbance which goes away after a few weeks and you trade that for not only feeling better and being able to function better which leads to getting better - because the worsething for an MS patient is to function physically as much as possible -and not progressing. Many people tell me AFTER the funcky sleep disturbance nights they actually sleep better then they ever have before. Sleep in itself is a measure of good mental health. Sleep is key to functioning and really feeling well on many levels. One day when i'm not sitting in a hotel room we can have a discussion about sleep and the importance of rem sleep. So I don't say this in anger -i don't know dr zagon but I think before anyone tells anyone to do what they want and it could effect someone in a negative way they need to think long and hard. I think a better is " why are you taking ldn " and what do we know so far. I also know that retrospecitve studies are not the same as rigorous clinical studies but they are done in every major research institute in the world and carry enormous amounts of information in them. cyndi Re: [low dose naltrexone] LDN in the AM > >You are very wise !! :0))) > [low dose naltrexone] LDN in the AM > > > Hi Folks .. I posted this edited version on the Goodshape board .. I > would like to add my 2 cents here ... > To begin, I don't believe that there is any personal animosity > between Dr Bihari and Dr Zagon .. they are two professionals in > completely different fields so have different viewpoints as to the > best way to get LDN to the masses. It is true that Dr Zagon provided > the spark in his lab for Dr Biharis clincal vision back in the 80's. > Today, they both believe in LDN and see the wonderful potential very > clearly .. they are both very intelligent. They both know that LDN > works. They are from two different schools of thought, clinical and > lab. They cannot be compared and to side with one makes no sense. > The truth is all that matters. Both are wonderful people in my > opinion. I have the utmost respect for each of them. I like the idea > that science is not a belief but the will to find facts. > Dr Zagon does believe that LDN can be taken in the morning. If he is > correct, that will save many people a lot of headaches. Dr Mir in > Germany also gave LDN in the morning to bypass the sleepless > nights .. and I think Dr Jill did the same at some point. They > all got results. The German study did not show statistically > significant results but the people all felt the results .. that > highlighted the problem with scientific trials .. it is not always > easy to make the results you see and feel, appear statistically > significant in a trial. > Dr Bihari believes that LDN works 'best' when taken between 9PM and > 2AM .. he does not rule out potential benefits from taking it at > other times. Dr Bihari believes for the maximum LDN effect .. ie to > stop MS progression, LDN must be taken between 9PM and 2AM. That is > because he believes endorphin production (the tripling of such > endorphins nightly by the way is the primary mechanism by which LDN > works according to Dr Bihari's clinical results) is affected by the > circadian rhythm. That is the protocol human success stories to date > have followed. > Dr Bihari has treated the most people so it would seem sensible for > now to stick with his protocol if possible. If Dr Bihari's protocol > is not physically possible then it is sensible to test Dr Zagon's > theory instead of abandoning LDN altogether. Dr Zagon has referenced > scientific papers that would suggest the circadian rhythm does not > affect LDN because Met-enkephalin (enkephalin) does not have any > circadian rhythm in humans according to the published Shanks et al. > paper. You see Dr Zagon's lab results have led him to believes that > LDN works primarily by elevating met-enkephalin. (I also know that > Dr Bihari knows that met enkephalin plays a significant role in the, > as of yet, rather elusive LDN mechanism) > However, when all is said and done, Dr Bihari and Dr Zagon would > agree on much of the puzzle pieces I have been given so far .. to me > that is very exciting. > Juice is correct to question the whole thing and to go in search of > answers that suit her best. We are all pioneers here. We must assume > all people are intelligent enough to see the data we currently have > and make an intelligent decision that suits them best. > As a community, the LDN community is more than capable of breaking > all the rules and testing every limit .. that is the type of people > we all are. We must be careful not to close our minds to every > possibility. It was our open minds that got us this far. We must > keep our hearts and minds respectfully open until we cross the > finish line. The finish line being a full scale clinical trial for > LDN and MS. > > Science can only ascertain what is, but not what should be, and > outside of its domain value judgments of all kinds remain necessary. > Albert Einstein (1879-1955) U. S. physicist, born in Germany. > > All the Best > Bradley > www.marybradleybooks.com > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 3, 2006 Report Share Posted November 3, 2006 mary if you go back and listen to jill smith she clearly states in that in her research with crohns that she doesn't think that ldn works the same way it works with ms patients. if its not on the dvd its on the audio on the ldn webpage. my initial reaction, yes fueled by frustration, was more mother hen. there's more work out there than dr biharis and dr zagons. and when you look at the data for hundreds of patients who mostly have ms who are doing well and the major side effect with sleep disturbance which goes away after a few weeks and you trade that for not only feeling better and being able to function better which leads to getting better - because the worsething for an MS patient is to function physically as much as possible -and not progressing. Many people tell me AFTER the funcky sleep disturbance nights they actually sleep better then they ever have before. Sleep in itself is a measure of good mental health. Sleep is key to functioning and really feeling well on many levels. One day when i'm not sitting in a hotel room we can have a discussion about sleep and the importance of rem sleep. So I don't say this in anger -i don't know dr zagon but I think before anyone tells anyone to do what they want and it could effect someone in a negative way they need to think long and hard. I think a better is " why are you taking ldn " and what do we know so far. I also know that retrospecitve studies are not the same as rigorous clinical studies but they are done in every major research institute in the world and carry enormous amounts of information in them. cyndi Re: [low dose naltrexone] LDN in the AM > >You are very wise !! :0))) > [low dose naltrexone] LDN in the AM > > > Hi Folks .. I posted this edited version on the Goodshape board .. I > would like to add my 2 cents here ... > To begin, I don't believe that there is any personal animosity > between Dr Bihari and Dr Zagon .. they are two professionals in > completely different fields so have different viewpoints as to the > best way to get LDN to the masses. It is true that Dr Zagon provided > the spark in his lab for Dr Biharis clincal vision back in the 80's. > Today, they both believe in LDN and see the wonderful potential very > clearly .. they are both very intelligent. They both know that LDN > works. They are from two different schools of thought, clinical and > lab. They cannot be compared and to side with one makes no sense. > The truth is all that matters. Both are wonderful people in my > opinion. I have the utmost respect for each of them. I like the idea > that science is not a belief but the will to find facts. > Dr Zagon does believe that LDN can be taken in the morning. If he is > correct, that will save many people a lot of headaches. Dr Mir in > Germany also gave LDN in the morning to bypass the sleepless > nights .. and I think Dr Jill did the same at some point. They > all got results. The German study did not show statistically > significant results but the people all felt the results .. that > highlighted the problem with scientific trials .. it is not always > easy to make the results you see and feel, appear statistically > significant in a trial. > Dr Bihari believes that LDN works 'best' when taken between 9PM and > 2AM .. he does not rule out potential benefits from taking it at > other times. Dr Bihari believes for the maximum LDN effect .. ie to > stop MS progression, LDN must be taken between 9PM and 2AM. That is > because he believes endorphin production (the tripling of such > endorphins nightly by the way is the primary mechanism by which LDN > works according to Dr Bihari's clinical results) is affected by the > circadian rhythm. That is the protocol human success stories to date > have followed. > Dr Bihari has treated the most people so it would seem sensible for > now to stick with his protocol if possible. If Dr Bihari's protocol > is not physically possible then it is sensible to test Dr Zagon's > theory instead of abandoning LDN altogether. Dr Zagon has referenced > scientific papers that would suggest the circadian rhythm does not > affect LDN because Met-enkephalin (enkephalin) does not have any > circadian rhythm in humans according to the published Shanks et al. > paper. You see Dr Zagon's lab results have led him to believes that > LDN works primarily by elevating met-enkephalin. (I also know that > Dr Bihari knows that met enkephalin plays a significant role in the, > as of yet, rather elusive LDN mechanism) > However, when all is said and done, Dr Bihari and Dr Zagon would > agree on much of the puzzle pieces I have been given so far .. to me > that is very exciting. > Juice is correct to question the whole thing and to go in search of > answers that suit her best. We are all pioneers here. We must assume > all people are intelligent enough to see the data we currently have > and make an intelligent decision that suits them best. > As a community, the LDN community is more than capable of breaking > all the rules and testing every limit .. that is the type of people > we all are. We must be careful not to close our minds to every > possibility. It was our open minds that got us this far. We must > keep our hearts and minds respectfully open until we cross the > finish line. The finish line being a full scale clinical trial for > LDN and MS. > > Science can only ascertain what is, but not what should be, and > outside of its domain value judgments of all kinds remain necessary. > Albert Einstein (1879-1955) U. S. physicist, born in Germany. > > All the Best > Bradley > www.marybradleybooks.com > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 4, 2006 Report Share Posted November 4, 2006  Cyndi, I think we need to open up our minds to the fact that maybe there are alternative ways to think about LDN. We've already established that everyone is different and respond to different things differently. Well, what about LDN? Why should it be the same for everyone? That makes no sense. It doesnt work for everyone, so shouldnt it fall under the same category as everything else? If everybody responded well to it the same way, then I could see your point. I really dont agree with the diet and candida stuff that and others talk about, but maybe some DO have a diet and candida issue, but I'm pretty sure we ALL dont. She tells us what we SHOULD do, and you tell us what we SHOULDNT do. made an excellent point, she said that the Bihari protocol probably SHOULD be followed, but it would be better to try the Zagon protocol if it didnt work for you, try an alternative protocol, before you just gave it up completely. This should be encouraged, not argued against. What she said makes perfect sense.We need to realize that not everyone responds to LDN like the rest of us, it COULD be diet, it COULD be candida, it COULD even be the time we're taking it, or it COULD be a bunch of things Do YOU, or anyone else know for a fact which it is? I would think until we know, anything is pretty much open at this point. I encourage others to experiment like Juice, I even think she should be encouraged as well. Live with this frikken bulls*** for 1 month, one day. I've spent so much money and time trying to get rid of this crap, and you know what, I still have it, rather, it has me. I'm not about to stop experimenting at this point, and I dont think anyone else should either. [low dose naltrexone] LDN in the AM>>> Hi Folks .. I posted this edited version on the Goodshape board .. I > would like to add my 2 cents here ...> To begin, I don't believe that there is any personal animosity > between Dr Bihari and Dr Zagon .. they are two professionals in > completely different fields so have different viewpoints as to the > best way to get LDN to the masses. It is true that Dr Zagon provided > the spark in his lab for Dr Biharis clincal vision back in the 80's. > Today, they both believe in LDN and see the wonderful potential very > clearly .. they are both very intelligent. They both know that LDN > works. They are from two different schools of thought, clinical and > lab. They cannot be compared and to side with one makes no sense. > The truth is all that matters. Both are wonderful people in my > opinion. I have the utmost respect for each of them. I like the idea > that science is not a belief but the will to find facts.> Dr Zagon does believe that LDN can be taken in the morning. If he is > correct, that will save many people a lot of headaches. Dr Mir in > Germany also gave LDN in the morning to bypass the sleepless > nights .. and I think Dr Jill did the same at some point. They > all got results. The German study did not show statistically > significant results but the people all felt the results .. that > highlighted the problem with scientific trials .. it is not always > easy to make the results you see and feel, appear statistically > significant in a trial. > Dr Bihari believes that LDN works 'best' when taken between 9PM and > 2AM .. he does not rule out potential benefits from taking it at > other times. Dr Bihari believes for the maximum LDN effect .. ie to > stop MS progression, LDN must be taken between 9PM and 2AM. That is > because he believes endorphin production (the tripling of such > endorphins nightly by the way is the primary mechanism by which LDN > works according to Dr Bihari's clinical results) is affected by the > circadian rhythm. That is the protocol human success stories to date > have followed. > Dr Bihari has treated the most people so it would seem sensible for > now to stick with his protocol if possible. If Dr Bihari's protocol > is not physically possible then it is sensible to test Dr Zagon's > theory instead of abandoning LDN altogether. Dr Zagon has referenced > scientific papers that would suggest the circadian rhythm does not > affect LDN because Met-enkephalin (enkephalin) does not have any > circadian rhythm in humans according to the published Shanks et al. > paper. You see Dr Zagon's lab results have led him to believes that > LDN works primarily by elevating met-enkephalin. (I also know that > Dr Bihari knows that met enkephalin plays a significant role in the, > as of yet, rather elusive LDN mechanism) > However, when all is said and done, Dr Bihari and Dr Zagon would > agree on much of the puzzle pieces I have been given so far .. to me > that is very exciting. > Juice is correct to question the whole thing and to go in search of > answers that suit her best. We are all pioneers here. We must assume > all people are intelligent enough to see the data we currently have > and make an intelligent decision that suits them best. > As a community, the LDN community is more than capable of breaking > all the rules and testing every limit .. that is the type of people > we all are. We must be careful not to close our minds to every > possibility. It was our open minds that got us this far. We must > keep our hearts and minds respectfully open until we cross the > finish line. The finish line being a full scale clinical trial for > LDN and MS. >> Science can only ascertain what is, but not what should be, and > outside of its domain value judgments of all kinds remain necessary. > Albert Einstein (1879-1955) U. S. physicist, born in Germany.>> All the Best> Bradley> www.marybradleybooks.com>>>> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 4, 2006 Report Share Posted November 4, 2006 , Thank you for this intelligent and insightful post. I couldn't agree more. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 4, 2006 Report Share Posted November 4, 2006 Cyndi, Intractable insomnia happens to be one of the worst, if not the worst, symptoms I deal with in my struggle with Crohn's Disease. No, that is not normally characteristic of Crohn's. But then I've never really been " normal " . So in my case there's more at stake than a few " funky sleep disturbance nights " . The four nights I tried taking LDN, even at 1.5 mg, I literally DID NOT SLEEP. That is obviously not going to help me heal - regardless of what other beneficial effects it may have. Total sleep deprivation trumps everything. There is simply not enough data yet and not enough understanding of LDN's mechanism of action to rule out trying it in the morning, especially when Dr. Zargon and Dr. have had some success (albeit limited) using it that way. Who knows, perhaps I'll be one of them? Best, Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 4, 2006 Report Share Posted November 4, 2006 i agree with you dave. we should. its not the same for everyone. I'm talking about ms. and the thing is about ldn not working -i've said it here a 100 times-people respond differentlly. I think an issue with many people is they do not get what they are looking for. but i always see when people stick it out that good things happen. the point i made so long ago was did dr zagon even know about the information out there before he gave his response to juice. and about the diet and candida issue. this seems to work for brenda but I do have to say I disagree heartily. I think its a dangerous diet that robs people of proper nutitrition and its not well thought out. having said this dave this does not give you permission to go to burger king. is candida an issue. maybe. but the bigger issue has to do with absorption of nutrition - you can eliminate all kinds of things but still have issues with your stomach and that can effect you. that much is true. I am reading this really awesome book called Enzymes for autism and other neurological conditions. I'm about half way through but the general philosphy behind it is basically what i have said all along. if your stomach is screwed up fix it. yu can take all the suppliments in the world and you can eliminate all the food you want but if stomach doesn't absorb anything it doesn't matter. and i'm not sure if it was here (i'm still in colorado so my email is all screwed up) but I would never tell anyone to take diflucan unless they needed it. I actually had a long discussion with a bunch of practioners about probiotics and basically their response was " of course probiotics are the best way to go but people want their drugs. " why wouldn't I? without getting into an entire biology lesson we are eucaryotic fungas are eucaryotic. it seems to me that taking any anti fungel unless you really need it is dangerous. go look up the side of diflucan --pretty nasty stuff - i'll write more when I get home. its been a fairly intense week but my parents are in a holding pattern and thats all i could ask the universe for cyndi Re: [low dose naltrexone] LDN in the AM > > Cyndi, I think we need to open up our minds to the fact that maybe there are alternative ways to think about LDN. We've already established that everyone is different and respond to different things differently. Well, what about LDN? Why should it be the same for everyone? That makes no sense. It doesnt work for everyone, so shouldnt it fall under the same category as everything else? If everybody responded well to it the same way, then I could see your point. I really dont agree with the diet and candida stuff that and others talk about, but maybe some DO have a diet and candida issue, but I'm pretty sure we ALL dont. She tells us what we SHOULD do, and you tell us what we SHOULDNT do. made an excellent point, she said that the Bihari protocol probably SHOULD be followed, but it would be better to try the Zagon protocol if it didnt work for you, try an alternative protocol, before you just gave it up completely. This should be encouraged, not argued against. What she said makes perfect sense.We need to realize that not everyone responds to LDN like the rest of us, it COULD be diet, it COULD be candida, it COULD even be the time we're taking it, or it COULD be a bunch of things Do YOU, or anyone else know for a fact which it is? I would think until we know, anything is pretty much open at this point. I encourage others to experiment like Juice, I even think she should be encouraged as well. Live with this frikken bulls*** for 1 month, one day. I've spent so much money and time trying to get rid of this crap, and you know what, I still have it, rather, it has me. I'm not about to stop experimenting at this point, and I dont think anyone else should either. > [low dose naltrexone] LDN in the AM > > > > > > Hi Folks .. I posted this edited version on the Goodshape board .. I > > would like to add my 2 cents here ... > > To begin, I don't believe that there is any personal animosity > > between Dr Bihari and Dr Zagon .. they are two professionals in > > completely different fields so have different viewpoints as to the > > best way to get LDN to the masses. It is true that Dr Zagon provided > > the spark in his lab for Dr Biharis clincal vision back in the 80's. > > Today, they both believe in LDN and see the wonderful potential very > > clearly .. they are both very intelligent. They both know that LDN > > works. They are from two different schools of thought, clinical and > > lab. They cannot be compared and to side with one makes no sense. > > The truth is all that matters. Both are wonderful people in my > > opinion. I have the utmost respect for each of them. I like the idea > > that science is not a belief but the will to find facts. > > Dr Zagon does believe that LDN can be taken in the morning. If he is > > correct, that will save many people a lot of headaches. Dr Mir in > > Germany also gave LDN in the morning to bypass the sleepless > > nights .. and I think Dr Jill did the same at some point. They > > all got results. The German study did not show statistically > > significant results but the people all felt the results .. that > > highlighted the problem with scientific trials .. it is not always > > easy to make the results you see and feel, appear statistically > > significant in a trial. > > Dr Bihari believes that LDN works 'best' when taken between 9PM and > > 2AM .. he does not rule out potential benefits from taking it at > > other times. Dr Bihari believes for the maximum LDN effect .. ie to > > stop MS progression, LDN must be taken between 9PM and 2AM. That is > > because he believes endorphin production (the tripling of such > > endorphins nightly by the way is the primary mechanism by which LDN > > works according to Dr Bihari's clinical results) is affected by the > > circadian rhythm. That is the protocol human success stories to date > > have followed. > > Dr Bihari has treated the most people so it would seem sensible for > > now to stick with his protocol if possible. If Dr Bihari's protocol > > is not physically possible then it is sensible to test Dr Zagon's > > theory instead of abandoning LDN altogether. Dr Zagon has referenced > > scientific papers that would suggest the circadian rhythm does not > > affect LDN because Met-enkephalin (enkephalin) does not have any > > circadian rhythm in humans according to the published Shanks et al. > > paper. You see Dr Zagon's lab results have led him to believes that > > LDN works primarily by elevating met-enkephalin. (I also know that > > Dr Bihari knows that met enkephalin plays a significant role in the, > > as of yet, rather elusive LDN mechanism) > > However, when all is said and done, Dr Bihari and Dr Zagon would > > agree on much of the puzzle pieces I have been given so far .. to me > > that is very exciting. > > Juice is correct to question the whole thing and to go in search of > > answers that suit her best. We are all pioneers here. We must assume > > all people are intelligent enough to see the data we currently have > > and make an intelligent decision that suits them best. > > As a community, the LDN community is more than capable of breaking > > all the rules and testing every limit .. that is the type of people > > we all are. We must be careful not to close our minds to every > > possibility. It was our open minds that got us this far. We must > > keep our hearts and minds respectfully open until we cross the > > finish line. The finish line being a full scale clinical trial for > > LDN and MS. > > > > Science can only ascertain what is, but not what should be, and > > outside of its domain value judgments of all kinds remain necessary. > > Albert Einstein (1879-1955) U. S. physicist, born in Germany. > > > > All the Best > > Bradley > > www.marybradleybooks.com > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 4, 2006 Report Share Posted November 4, 2006 > > Cyndi, > > Intractable insomnia happens to be one of the worst, if not the > worst, symptoms I deal with in my struggle with Crohn's Disease. No, > that is not normally characteristic of Crohn's. But then I've never > really been " normal " . > > So in my case there's more at stake than a few " funky sleep > disturbance nights " . The four nights I tried taking LDN, even at 1.5 > mg, I literally DID NOT SLEEP. That is obviously not going to help > me heal - regardless of what other beneficial effects it may have. > Total sleep deprivation trumps everything. > > There is simply not enough data yet and not enough understanding of > LDN's mechanism of action to rule out trying it in the morning, > especially when Dr. Zargon and Dr. have had some success > (albeit limited) using it that way. Who knows, perhaps I'll be one > of them? > > Best, > Chris > =========== The question presented to Zagon was about MS and not any other disease. Zagon has no idea if LDN will stop MS disease progression if LDN is taken in the AM. The only research people with MS have to go on right at this moment is Dr. Bihari's LDN protocol. Dr. Bihari has treated human beings with LDN, Zagon works with lab rats and his trials with LDN in MS are just now beginning with those animals, not sure he's even started yet. There's also a difference between crohn's and MS and LDN. Many Crohn's patients can stop taking LDN after awhile according to Jill and continue to stay in remission, not the case with MS. MS patients must take LDN for life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 4, 2006 Report Share Posted November 4, 2006 but that what i'm talking just ms not chrohns. did you listen to dr smith. her patients took ldn in the morning and in the night. but she felt that the way it works in crohns is different. i'll be home tomorrow and if you remind me next week i'll send you dr smiths entire lecture-its fairly incredible and makes a lot of sense. cyndi [low dose naltrexone] Re: LDN in the AM > > >> >> Cyndi, >> >> Intractable insomnia happens to be one of the worst, if not the >> worst, symptoms I deal with in my struggle with Crohn's Disease. >No, >> that is not normally characteristic of Crohn's. But then I've >never >> really been " normal " . >> >> So in my case there's more at stake than a few " funky sleep >> disturbance nights " . The four nights I tried taking LDN, even at >1.5 >> mg, I literally DID NOT SLEEP. That is obviously not going to help >> me heal - regardless of what other beneficial effects it may have. >> Total sleep deprivation trumps everything. >> >> There is simply not enough data yet and not enough understanding of >> LDN's mechanism of action to rule out trying it in the morning, >> especially when Dr. Zargon and Dr. have had some success >> (albeit limited) using it that way. Who knows, perhaps I'll be one >> of them? >> >> Best, >> Chris >> >=========== > >The question presented to Zagon was about MS and not any other >disease. Zagon has no idea if LDN will stop MS disease progression if >LDN is taken in the AM. The only research people with MS have to go >on right at this moment is Dr. Bihari's LDN protocol. Dr. Bihari has >treated human beings with LDN, Zagon works with lab rats and his >trials with LDN in MS are just now beginning with those animals, not >sure he's even started yet. > >There's also a difference between crohn's and MS and LDN. Many >Crohn's patients can stop taking LDN after awhile according to Jill > and continue to stay in remission, not the case with MS. MS >patients must take LDN for life. > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 4, 2006 Report Share Posted November 4, 2006 Dear Cyndi .. You are one of the few faces on this board I can actually see because we have actually met in person .. and we like each other .. and I love your husband Dr Skip and you love my brother Dr Phil Boyle .. so you could never offend me. We have a connection. I absolutely know that everything you say is from your heart and I know that everything you do is coming from the same source. I love you Cyndi. You know that. I remember Dr Jill 's talk avidly in my mind. I spoke quite a bit after her .. but she stuck out in my memory. You see, she threw a spanner in our thinking by 1) giving LDN in the AM and getting scientific results and 2) using it as an intermittent therapy for an autoimmune illness ie crohns. That was new ground for us. Dr Gluck pointed out very fast and very wisely that to take an MS'er off LDN was like taking a diabetic off insulin .. so yes .. it was made clear that MS and Crohns, although autoimmune, and therefore respond to LDN .. they are different .. because a Crohns patients can use intermittent LDN therapy and a MS'er by all accounts to date should not. The time one takes LDN was not the issue at the time because it was not a concern . in fact .. it was pretty much .. actually completely ... swept aside. The data is there for everyone to read .. all human success stories to date are coming from people taking LDN between 9PM and 2AM. A lady named Juice ... I have never met her .. had issues taking LDN at night so she tried to test that logic out of desperation I believe .. and post her results. I got this information from reading sporadic posts. We are all rats in a maze ... but give me LDN any day to play with over the other stuff that is out there. If you can find a way to make it work .. go for it and by all means share. I ask that we never treat each other like we are crazy . We have an entire world out there to do that for us. We have all heard of LDN and we know that it works .. we will figure out the semantics ,, right now we are so very, very small in numbers . I beg that we hold on tight to each other .. I love everyone I have ever met on this journey and I mean that most sincerely. On a personal note .. My Moms breast cancer continues to spread regardless of LDN 4.5mg lactose filler. My husbands PPMS and my uncles Parkinsons remain stable. Two out three aint bad. Two out of three actually sucks in real life but I am a step a head perhaps because once again I have personal cause. LDN is failing Mom .. Why???? I have many leads and many hope lines to follow .. all of which stem from LDN community as a whole. All the Best Bradley www.marybradleybooks.com > > mary > if you go back and listen to jill smith she clearly states in that in her research with crohns that she doesn't think that ldn works the same way it works with ms patients. if its not on the dvd its on the audio on the ldn webpage. > my initial reaction, yes fueled by frustration, was more mother hen. there's more work out there than dr biharis and dr zagons. and when you look at the data for hundreds of patients who mostly have ms who are doing well and the major side effect with sleep disturbance which goes away after a few weeks and you trade that for not only feeling better and being able to function better which leads to getting better - because the worsething for an MS patient is to function physically as much as possible -and not progressing. Many people tell me AFTER the funcky sleep disturbance nights they actually sleep better then they ever have before. > Sleep in itself is a measure of good mental health. Sleep is key to functioning and really feeling well on many levels. One day when i'm not sitting in a hotel room we can have a discussion about sleep and the importance of rem sleep. So I don't say this in anger - i don't know dr zagon but I think before anyone tells anyone to do what they want and it could effect someone in a negative way they need to think long and hard. > I think a better is " why are you taking ldn " and what do we know so far. > I also know that retrospecitve studies are not the same as rigorous clinical studies but they are done in every major research institute in the world and carry enormous amounts of information in them. > cyndi > > Re: [low dose naltrexone] LDN in the AM > > > >You are very wise !! :0))) > > [low dose naltrexone] LDN in the AM > > > > > > Hi Folks .. I posted this edited version on the Goodshape board .. I > > would like to add my 2 cents here ... > > To begin, I don't believe that there is any personal animosity > > between Dr Bihari and Dr Zagon .. they are two professionals in > > completely different fields so have different viewpoints as to the > > best way to get LDN to the masses. It is true that Dr Zagon provided > > the spark in his lab for Dr Biharis clincal vision back in the 80's. > > Today, they both believe in LDN and see the wonderful potential very > > clearly .. they are both very intelligent. They both know that LDN > > works. They are from two different schools of thought, clinical and > > lab. They cannot be compared and to side with one makes no sense. > > The truth is all that matters. Both are wonderful people in my > > opinion. I have the utmost respect for each of them. I like the idea > > that science is not a belief but the will to find facts. > > Dr Zagon does believe that LDN can be taken in the morning. If he is > > correct, that will save many people a lot of headaches. Dr Mir in > > Germany also gave LDN in the morning to bypass the sleepless > > nights .. and I think Dr Jill did the same at some point. They > > all got results. The German study did not show statistically > > significant results but the people all felt the results .. that > > highlighted the problem with scientific trials .. it is not always > > easy to make the results you see and feel, appear statistically > > significant in a trial. > > Dr Bihari believes that LDN works 'best' when taken between 9PM and > > 2AM .. he does not rule out potential benefits from taking it at > > other times. Dr Bihari believes for the maximum LDN effect .. ie to > > stop MS progression, LDN must be taken between 9PM and 2AM. That is > > because he believes endorphin production (the tripling of such > > endorphins nightly by the way is the primary mechanism by which LDN > > works according to Dr Bihari's clinical results) is affected by the > > circadian rhythm. That is the protocol human success stories to date > > have followed. > > Dr Bihari has treated the most people so it would seem sensible for > > now to stick with his protocol if possible. If Dr Bihari's protocol > > is not physically possible then it is sensible to test Dr Zagon's > > theory instead of abandoning LDN altogether. Dr Zagon has referenced > > scientific papers that would suggest the circadian rhythm does not > > affect LDN because Met-enkephalin (enkephalin) does not have any > > circadian rhythm in humans according to the published Shanks et al. > > paper. You see Dr Zagon's lab results have led him to believes that > > LDN works primarily by elevating met-enkephalin. (I also know that > > Dr Bihari knows that met enkephalin plays a significant role in the, > > as of yet, rather elusive LDN mechanism) > > However, when all is said and done, Dr Bihari and Dr Zagon would > > agree on much of the puzzle pieces I have been given so far .. to me > > that is very exciting. > > Juice is correct to question the whole thing and to go in search of > > answers that suit her best. We are all pioneers here. We must assume > > all people are intelligent enough to see the data we currently have > > and make an intelligent decision that suits them best. > > As a community, the LDN community is more than capable of breaking > > all the rules and testing every limit .. that is the type of people > > we all are. We must be careful not to close our minds to every > > possibility. It was our open minds that got us this far. We must > > keep our hearts and minds respectfully open until we cross the > > finish line. The finish line being a full scale clinical trial for > > LDN and MS. > > > > Science can only ascertain what is, but not what should be, and > > outside of its domain value judgments of all kinds remain necessary. > > Albert Einstein (1879-1955) U. S. physicist, born in Germany. > > > > All the Best > > Bradley > > www.marybradleybooks.com > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 4, 2006 Report Share Posted November 4, 2006 > > On a personal note .. My Moms breast cancer continues to spread > regardless of LDN 4.5mg lactose filler. LDN is failing Mom .. > Why???? > All the Best > Bradley ========== , Dr. Bihari was very adamant with my mom to not take chemo and do LDN only for her breast cancer. Could the chemo your mom took before ever trying LDN have destroyed too many good cells along with the cancerous cells and LDN just maybe doesn't have enough good cells to work with? Did you ever have any lengthy discussions with Bihari of why he is so against chemo? This means the original treatment of chemo failed her also. Makes one wonder. I pray there are other possible avenues for your mom. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 4, 2006 Report Share Posted November 4, 2006 I guess those who choose to experiment will take their chances . > >> > Cyndi,> > > > Intractable insomnia happens to be one of the worst, if not the > > worst, symptoms I deal with in my struggle with Crohn's Disease. > No, > > that is not normally characteristic of Crohn's. But then I've > never > > really been "normal". > > > > So in my case there's more at stake than a few "funky sleep > > disturbance nights". The four nights I tried taking LDN, even at > 1.5 > > mg, I literally DID NOT SLEEP. That is obviously not going to help > > me heal - regardless of what other beneficial effects it may have. > > Total sleep deprivation trumps everything.> > > > There is simply not enough data yet and not enough understanding of > > LDN's mechanism of action to rule out trying it in the morning, > > especially when Dr. Zargon and Dr. have had some success > > (albeit limited) using it that way. Who knows, perhaps I'll be one > > of them?> > > > Best,> > Chris> >> ===========> > The question presented to Zagon was about MS and not any other > disease. Zagon has no idea if LDN will stop MS disease progression if > LDN is taken in the AM. The only research people with MS have to go > on right at this moment is Dr. Bihari's LDN protocol. Dr. Bihari has > treated human beings with LDN, Zagon works with lab rats and his > trials with LDN in MS are just now beginning with those animals, not > sure he's even started yet.> > There's also a difference between crohn's and MS and LDN. Many > Crohn's patients can stop taking LDN after awhile according to Jill > and continue to stay in remission, not the case with MS. MS > patients must take LDN for life.> > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 4, 2006 Report Share Posted November 4, 2006 I guess those who choose to experiment will take their chances . > >> > Cyndi,> > > > Intractable insomnia happens to be one of the worst, if not the > > worst, symptoms I deal with in my struggle with Crohn's Disease. > No, > > that is not normally characteristic of Crohn's. But then I've > never > > really been "normal". > > > > So in my case there's more at stake than a few "funky sleep > > disturbance nights". The four nights I tried taking LDN, even at > 1.5 > > mg, I literally DID NOT SLEEP. That is obviously not going to help > > me heal - regardless of what other beneficial effects it may have. > > Total sleep deprivation trumps everything.> > > > There is simply not enough data yet and not enough understanding of > > LDN's mechanism of action to rule out trying it in the morning, > > especially when Dr. Zargon and Dr. have had some success > > (albeit limited) using it that way. Who knows, perhaps I'll be one > > of them?> > > > Best,> > Chris> >> ===========> > The question presented to Zagon was about MS and not any other > disease. Zagon has no idea if LDN will stop MS disease progression if > LDN is taken in the AM. The only research people with MS have to go > on right at this moment is Dr. Bihari's LDN protocol. Dr. Bihari has > treated human beings with LDN, Zagon works with lab rats and his > trials with LDN in MS are just now beginning with those animals, not > sure he's even started yet.> > There's also a difference between crohn's and MS and LDN. Many > Crohn's patients can stop taking LDN after awhile according to Jill > and continue to stay in remission, not the case with MS. MS > patients must take LDN for life.> > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 4, 2006 Report Share Posted November 4, 2006 first of all I'm so sorry to hear about your Mum. don't give up on your search for things for her. The difference for me that day is I showed up with a modest interest , really no history (I'd been hiding in the animal world) and just very happy to be there to make video clips for the website , have a nice trip to DC and to be supportive skip and I left blown away. I spent six week immersed in creating the dvd and what i realized then is that ldn is bigger then all of us and I saw why people were so passionate it. The first thing I did-i was still in DC is order your book. and i think one day when we have some time we could write an amazing screenplay. but back to ldn. I saw it as not only an amazing drug that could help a whole lot of people who really until this point had so many doors shut in their face. but a drug that could tell us about and give us a whole different perspective on immune disorders and it reached into my brain and down into my heart. some days I just cried thinking about all the people that could be helped. All these people talking about all these patients that are getting better because big brained compassionate people had the brass to see beyond what is and ask the question what if? Dr Phil said it best " First do no harm. " that is always in the back of the mind of (or it should be) of a health care worker. Before LDN I've seen so many ms patients disappointed disheartened declining - Even with LDN which I believe in so strongly I will not offer false hope to anyone. and no offense to anyone else with other disease to a person with ms. I am fanatically clear about the facts. and like your wise brother said " you've got nothing to loose " at the conferance we did discuss times --i believe it was during when skip was speaking. Gabi K was asking about what to do about time changes because she was going to Germany. I'll have to go back to look but Dr gluck made a huge issue. and i believe it was my own Dr Skip who said something about Ducks. I just spent the the last week pulling my father back from death and watching my mom (who was kicked out of her nursing home for decking a patient) transform with the off label use of a whole bunch of medications. I've seen what really bad medicine can do and I've seen what thinking out of the box can do. I made decisions and choices based on what I believed to be true. and I stuck my guns and I didn't back down. I spent a week with my dads doctors and nurses and social workers telling them I was right and they were wrong. and I didn't care what they thought of me. and I am thankful that even though it may be for a short period my father will be stable if people follow the directions I left them. things with them are not wonderful but they are better. but after this week i say this my friend anything is possible cyndi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 4, 2006 Report Share Posted November 4, 2006 , have you contacted Dr. Bruce here on the site to see some of the other things he has done for his cancer. His story is very interesting. He has the cancer survivor website. Perhaps it is worth a try for your mom with the LDN. My prayers and thoughts are with you all. My cousin also followed a holistic, organic path for her husband with stage 4 kidney cancer, with no other treatment. I wish I had known about ldn then. He lived about 2 years longer than the doctors said, and had some nice quality of life without chemo etc.... My best, Conni Re: [low dose naltrexone] LDN in the AM > > > >You are very wise !! :0))) > > [low dose naltrexone] LDN in the AM > > > > > > Hi Folks .. I posted this edited version on the Goodshape board .. I > > would like to add my 2 cents here ... > > To begin, I don't believe that there is any personal animosity > > between Dr Bihari and Dr Zagon .. they are two professionals in > > completely different fields so have different viewpoints as to the > > best way to get LDN to the masses. It is true that Dr Zagon provided > > the spark in his lab for Dr Biharis clincal vision back in the 80's. > > Today, they both believe in LDN and see the wonderful potential very > > clearly .. they are both very intelligent. They both know that LDN > > works. They are from two different schools of thought, clinical and > > lab. They cannot be compared and to side with one makes no sense. > > The truth is all that matters. Both are wonderful people in my > > opinion. I have the utmost respect for each of them. I like the idea > > that science is not a belief but the will to find facts. > > Dr Zagon does believe that LDN can be taken in the morning. If he is > > correct, that will save many people a lot of headaches. Dr Mir in > > Germany also gave LDN in the morning to bypass the sleepless > > nights .. and I think Dr Jill did the same at some point. They > > all got results. The German study did not show statistically > > significant results but the people all felt the results .. that > > highlighted the problem with scientific trials .. it is not always > > easy to make the results you see and feel, appear statistically > > significant in a trial. > > Dr Bihari believes that LDN works 'best' when taken between 9PM and > > 2AM .. he does not rule out potential benefits from taking it at > > other times. Dr Bihari believes for the maximum LDN effect .. ie to > > stop MS progression, LDN must be taken between 9PM and 2AM. That is > > because he believes endorphin production (the tripling of such > > endorphins nightly by the way is the primary mechanism by which LDN > > works according to Dr Bihari's clinical results) is affected by the > > circadian rhythm. That is the protocol human success stories to date > > have followed. > > Dr Bihari has treated the most people so it would seem sensible for > > now to stick with his protocol if possible. If Dr Bihari's protocol > > is not physically possible then it is sensible to test Dr Zagon's > > theory instead of abandoning LDN altogether. Dr Zagon has referenced > > scientific papers that would suggest the circadian rhythm does not > > affect LDN because Met-enkephalin (enkephalin) does not have any > > circadian rhythm in humans according to the published Shanks et al. > > paper. You see Dr Zagon's lab results have led him to believes that > > LDN works primarily by elevating met-enkephalin. (I also know that > > Dr Bihari knows that met enkephalin plays a significant role in the, > > as of yet, rather elusive LDN mechanism) > > However, when all is said and done, Dr Bihari and Dr Zagon would > > agree on much of the puzzle pieces I have been given so far .. to me > > that is very exciting. > > Juice is correct to question the whole thing and to go in search of > > answers that suit her best. We are all pioneers here. We must assume > > all people are intelligent enough to see the data we currently have > > and make an intelligent decision that suits them best. > > As a community, the LDN community is more than capable of breaking > > all the rules and testing every limit .. that is the type of people > > we all are. We must be careful not to close our minds to every > > possibility. It was our open minds that got us this far. We must > > keep our hearts and minds respectfully open until we cross the > > finish line. The finish line being a full scale clinical trial for > > LDN and MS. > > > > Science can only ascertain what is, but not what should be, and > > outside of its domain value judgments of all kinds remain necessary. > > Albert Einstein (1879-1955) U. S. physicist, born in Germany. > > > > All the Best > > Bradley > > www.marybradleybooks.com > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 4, 2006 Report Share Posted November 4, 2006 > > i agree with you dave. we should. its not the same for everyone. I'm talking about ms. and the thing is about ldn not working -i've said it here a 100 times-people respond differentlly. I think an issue with many people is they do not get what they are looking for. but i always see when people stick it out that good things happen. > the point i made so long ago was did dr zagon even know about the information out there before he gave his response to juice. > and about the diet and candida issue. this seems to work for brenda but I do have to say I disagree heartily. I think its a dangerous diet that robs people of proper nutitrition and its not well thought out. > having said this dave this does not give you permission to go to burger king. > is candida an issue. maybe. but the bigger issue has to do with absorption of nutrition - you can eliminate all kinds of things but still have issues with your stomach and that can effect you. that much is true. > I am reading this really awesome book called Enzymes for autism and other neurological conditions. I'm about half way through but the general philosphy behind it is basically what i have said all along. > if your stomach is screwed up fix it. > yu can take all the suppliments in the world and you can eliminate all the food you want but if stomach doesn't absorb anything it doesn't matter. and i'm not sure if it was here (i'm still in colorado so my email is all screwed up) but I would never tell anyone to take diflucan unless they needed it. I actually had a long discussion with a bunch of practioners about probiotics and basically their response was " of course probiotics are the best way to go but people want their drugs. " > why wouldn't I? without getting into an entire biology lesson we are eucaryotic fungas are eucaryotic. it seems to me that taking any anti fungel unless you really need it is dangerous. > go look up the side of diflucan --pretty nasty stuff - > i'll write more when I get home. > its been a fairly intense week but my parents are in a holding pattern and thats all i could ask the universe for > cyndi > Eliminating sugar, casein, gluten, junk food from the diet is " dangerous " and part of " proper nutrition " ?!! With our health the way it is, I'd recommend a salad and piece of fruit over a candy bar and greasy hamburger. Artie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 4, 2006 Report Share Posted November 4, 2006 , your response was thoughtful and intelligent--thanks for that. Some of us have been around for awhile and have learned things the hard way. I think some of the overreaction (including my own) to this morning thing is based on a few things: 1) some of us have been Dr. Bihari's patients--have MET the man; 2) a sincere desire to help people new to LDN; and 3) a feeling of frustration that some of the new people have not been doing the research, for example, going to the LDN website. In addition, I also think that just because something makes us feel better does not necessarily make it right. My energy level increases an amazing amount after eating steak, nevertheless, I eat it rarely (no pun intended!). In general, I really believe that all of our negative reactions to taking LDN in the morning came from genuine concern for the people doing it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 5, 2006 Report Share Posted November 5, 2006 That suggests you benefit from the vitamin B12 and iron in the steak. I react similarly and also benefit from sublingual B12. I do not take supplemental iron as I think that is risky unless prescribed and monitored. mjh"The Basil Book"http://foxhillfarm.us/FireBasil/ My energy level increases an amazing amount after eating steak, nevertheless, I eat it rarely (no pun intended!). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.