Re: Spirited Debate, Facts and Opinions

[Guest guest]

hey alan-

once you get your hip fixed, you can dance

better to the trippy music.

you'll always be a hippy. no matter what they

try to change you into.

peace, love and flowers.

signed, " dances with hippies "

Re: Spirited Debate, Facts and Opinions

When we all have our joints fix and there are no hippies left to

hobble on...then we could jump for joy as one and enjoy the

pleasures of hip-hop-racy...or something like. (Though I'm told

once you have a resurf, there's nothing like it.)

Alan

> hi-

>

> are you implying that we form a " hipocracy " or something?

>

> jeff

>

>

> Yo, Hippies...

>

> Perhaps we need something like a hippycratic oath to make sure

the

> information we get is truly both unbiased, and informed. Since

> nonsuch exists at the moment, we're not really left with many

> options.

>

> Hobble on, hippies.

> Alan

>

>

[Guest guest]

Sherry,

I believe that the large MoM device that Dr. Gross uses is also made

by Corin.

Fred

Dr. Gross, C2K 1/21/04

> > > > Most you have seen me post here before. I have made no

secret

> > that

> > > I

> > > > have a relationship with Medical and have tried my

best

> > to

> > > > not " ra ra " my product or any one Surgeon over another. I

> > joined

> > > > this group because I believe that resurfacing is the future

of

> > > total

> > > > joints and thought that my " insider " knowledge may be of use

> to

> > > > some. The people that I work with are ALWAYS amazed how

much

> > the

> > > > members of this board know and understand about resurfacing

> and

> > THR

> > > > in general. You are without a doubt the most prepared

> patients

> > any

> > > > surgeon would ever meet.

> > > >

> > > > Over the past few days, I have read some of the most

> aggressive

> > and

> > > > non hippielike posts ever seen on this site. In the past, I

> has

> > > all

> > > > been about resurfacing vs those non believers. Now, it

seems

> to

> > > have

> > > > spun into people taking shots at devices and surgeons. I

was

> > > > concerned that as FDA approval approached, things would

start

> to

> > > heat

> > > > up.

> > > >

> > > > One has to understand that this technology does represent a

> > change

> > > in

> > > > the status quo of the U.S. orthopaedic world. The success

of

> > this

> > > > type of product in Europe and the positive trials being

> > conducted

> > > by

> > > > and Corin here in the states have awakend a sleeping

> > > industry.

> > > > It has been reported that " every " yes I said " every " major

> > > > manufacturer of Orthopaedics in the U.S. is either buying

> > current

> > > > technology or rushing to get to the start of a clinical

trial.

> > > >

> > > > I would suggest that disinformation campaigns will only get

> > worse

> > > as

> > > > time moves along. I also would suggest that you all take

some

> > > > postings with a grain of salt. This web site is no secret

to

> > those

> > > > throughout the industry.

> > > >

> > > > Here are the facts as they stand today. There are 3 major

> > > > resurfacing components available today. Those are the BHR,

> C2K,

> > > and

> > > > the C+. The components are very similiar and the

> > instrumentation

> > > is

> > > > also nearly identical. Medical was first to trial in

> the

> > > U.S.

> > > > and will most likely be the first apporoved by the FDA.

Corin

> > will

> > > > be next and everyone else will try to leverage approval from

> > those

> > > > two successes.

> > > >

> > > > There will be adaptations and improvements to components and

> > > > instrumentation as time goes along. The next wave will most

> > likely

> > > > be more cup options and better instrumentation for minimally

> > > invasive

> > > > surgical techniques. These will allow for less scaring and

> > faster

> > > > over all healing.

> > > >

> > > > The true difference now is in the Surgeon's experience and

> > comfort

> > > > level with the instruments and implants. Those in Europe

have

> > had

> > > > approval for a long time and prohably have the most

experience

> > of

> > > any

> > > > group of surgeons.

> > > >

> > > > Here in the U.S. the clear leader is Dr. Amstuz with well

over

> > 800

> > > > implanted on the west coast. The east coast has Dr.

> > Mont

> > > > with nearly 300 successful proceedures and a reputation for

> > taking

> > > on

> > > > tough cases. That leaves eight other C+ sites with varing

> > degrees

> > > of

> > > > experience. I dont know their actual numbers and dont

intend

> > to

> > > > minimize their contribution, but I do not want to fabricate

> > > anything

> > > > either.

> > > >

> > > > I cannot speak for Corin, but I am sure that someone on this

> > board

> > > > can tell us who their most experienced surgeons are.

> > > >

> > > > Twenty years from now, we can sit back and tell our

> > Grandchildren

> > > > that we were there when it all started.

> > > >

> > > > Dave

> > >

> > > Hi Dave,

> > > Thanks for the post. I appreciate your honesty. I also

believe

> > that

> > > everytime you place a post on this website you should make it

> > > absolutely clear to the readers of this website that you have

a

> > > conflict of interest and infuse some bias into your comments

> > simply

> > > due to the fact that you work for Medical. I believe

> that

> > if

> > > you wish to stay unbiased all comments regarding the benefits

of

> > > Medical hip resurfacing should be avoided - that is

> unless

> > you

> > > are willing to release perioperative, short, intermediate, and

> > long-

> > > term data regarding outcomes as well as complication types and

> > rates

> > > associated with your device. I also believe that it is

> > inappropriate

> > > for you to commment either directly or indirectly about other

> hip

> > > resurfacing devices unless: a.) You work for the other

> respective

> > > companies, b.) Have receiving hip resurfacing procedure done

> with

> > the

> > > other devices, or c.)Have access to the results of studies

> > performed

> > > with other devices. However having said that I still

appreciate

> > the

> > > general information you provide about hip resurfacing and

would

> > > welcome your continued input.

> > > Regards,

> > > Dr. Mark

> > >

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

For what my 2 cents is worth...I think this post exchange is a

classic example of how text/email can be misunderstood, i.e, not read

how the author intended it to be read. It happens a lot in business

(as I can personally attest - its become a widely talked-about

problem), and it happens on this site. I think we're all adults and

can sort through info...can't we? In fact, I am impressed at the

wealth of knowledge/intelligence of folks on this site...DANG! I

also love that everyone, reps of devices and hippies alike, provide

info. For someone like myself who isn't a huge researcher, I depend

on this site for my info...of course weighing info, and following up

(if necessary) to confirm, deny or whatever the info.

Hope that makes sense. ) You all kick butt in my book! THANKS!

In surfacehippy , " dm_griggzy " wrote:

> Re: Dr. Mark, P.,

>

> Just adding the view of one contributor to this group...

>

> An interesting exchange but I have to say I take exception to Dr.

> Mark comments, at least in part. First, my bias. I have a problem

> with anyone who tries to do my thinking for me. Dr. Mark is totally

> correct as an industry professional speaking to another industry

> professional, but the assumption that anyone from the medical

> profession can be free of bias and prejudice is unrealistic. So why

> fake it by appearing to be unbiased? And I question the need to

> adopt Dr. Mark's professional code of conduct on this site. I

> look at this group as a place of free exchange and feel it would be

> less valuable if it were to turn into a sterile, tightly edited,

> controlled format where you couldn't give your side of the story

> without the requirement of presenting opposing views with full

> research. I'm very enthusiastic about what Dr. Amstutz has done

> for me twice and would not want to have to tell all the pluses and

> minuses of the other surgeons each time I share my experience with

> Dr Amstutz, just as I don't expect a patient of Dr. De Smet to

> have to talk about Dr. Amstutz before he or she can say good things

> about De Smet. If P. tells me he works for then I know

> how to weigh and qualify his comments. I don't need another

> professional telling him he can't say anything about his product

> unless he follows a set of rules and talks factually about

competing

> products. Is it reasonable to exclude or edit comments from this

> group because they're from someone who's very enthusiastic

> and supportive about their product?

>

> There are a lot of intelligent members of this group and I expect

> healthy disagreements with my point of view. And I consider that

one

> of the things that makes this site so good.

>

> Dave

> Proud owner of two C+s.

[Guest guest]

For what my 2 cents is worth...I think this post exchange is a

classic example of how text/email can be misunderstood, i.e, not read

how the author intended it to be read. It happens a lot in business

(as I can personally attest - its become a widely talked-about

problem), and it happens on this site. I think we're all adults and

can sort through info...can't we? In fact, I am impressed at the

wealth of knowledge/intelligence of folks on this site...DANG! I

also love that everyone, reps of devices and hippies alike, provide

info. For someone like myself who isn't a huge researcher, I depend

on this site for my info...of course weighing info, and following up

(if necessary) to confirm, deny or whatever the info.

Hope that makes sense. ) You all kick butt in my book! THANKS!

In surfacehippy , " dm_griggzy " wrote:

> Re: Dr. Mark, P.,

>

> Just adding the view of one contributor to this group...

>

> An interesting exchange but I have to say I take exception to Dr.

> Mark comments, at least in part. First, my bias. I have a problem

> with anyone who tries to do my thinking for me. Dr. Mark is totally

> correct as an industry professional speaking to another industry

> professional, but the assumption that anyone from the medical

> profession can be free of bias and prejudice is unrealistic. So why

> fake it by appearing to be unbiased? And I question the need to

> adopt Dr. Mark's professional code of conduct on this site. I

> look at this group as a place of free exchange and feel it would be

> less valuable if it were to turn into a sterile, tightly edited,

> controlled format where you couldn't give your side of the story

> without the requirement of presenting opposing views with full

> research. I'm very enthusiastic about what Dr. Amstutz has done

> for me twice and would not want to have to tell all the pluses and

> minuses of the other surgeons each time I share my experience with

> Dr Amstutz, just as I don't expect a patient of Dr. De Smet to

> have to talk about Dr. Amstutz before he or she can say good things

> about De Smet. If P. tells me he works for then I know

> how to weigh and qualify his comments. I don't need another

> professional telling him he can't say anything about his product

> unless he follows a set of rules and talks factually about

competing

> products. Is it reasonable to exclude or edit comments from this

> group because they're from someone who's very enthusiastic

> and supportive about their product?

>

> There are a lot of intelligent members of this group and I expect

> healthy disagreements with my point of view. And I consider that

one

> of the things that makes this site so good.

>

> Dave

> Proud owner of two C+s.

[Guest guest]

> > > > > Most you have seen me post here before. I have made no

> secret

> > > that

> > > > I

> > > > > have a relationship with Medical and have tried my

> best

> > > to

> > > > > not " ra ra " my product or any one Surgeon over another. I

> > > joined

> > > > > this group because I believe that resurfacing is the future

> of

> > > > total

> > > > > joints and thought that my " insider " knowledge may be of

use

> > to

> > > > > some. The people that I work with are ALWAYS amazed how

> much

> > > the

> > > > > members of this board know and understand about resurfacing

> > and

> > > THR

> > > > > in general. You are without a doubt the most prepared

> > patients

> > > any

> > > > > surgeon would ever meet.

> > > > >

> > > > > Over the past few days, I have read some of the most

> > aggressive

> > > and

> > > > > non hippielike posts ever seen on this site. In the past,

I

> > has

> > > > all

> > > > > been about resurfacing vs those non believers. Now, it

> seems

> > to

> > > > have

> > > > > spun into people taking shots at devices and surgeons. I

> was

> > > > > concerned that as FDA approval approached, things would

> start

> > to

> > > > heat

> > > > > up.

> > > > >

> > > > > One has to understand that this technology does represent a

> > > change

> > > > in

> > > > > the status quo of the U.S. orthopaedic world. The success

> of

> > > this

> > > > > type of product in Europe and the positive trials being

> > > conducted

> > > > by

> > > > > and Corin here in the states have awakend a sleeping

> > > > industry.

> > > > > It has been reported that " every " yes I said " every " major

> > > > > manufacturer of Orthopaedics in the U.S. is either buying

> > > current

> > > > > technology or rushing to get to the start of a clinical

> trial.

> > > > >

> > > > > I would suggest that disinformation campaigns will only get

> > > worse

> > > > as

> > > > > time moves along. I also would suggest that you all take

> some

> > > > > postings with a grain of salt. This web site is no secret

> to

> > > those

> > > > > throughout the industry.

> > > > >

> > > > > Here are the facts as they stand today. There are 3 major

> > > > > resurfacing components available today. Those are the BHR,

> > C2K,

> > > > and

> > > > > the C+. The components are very similiar and the

> > > instrumentation

> > > > is

> > > > > also nearly identical. Medical was first to trial

in

> > the

> > > > U.S.

> > > > > and will most likely be the first apporoved by the FDA.

> Corin

> > > will

> > > > > be next and everyone else will try to leverage approval

from

> > > those

> > > > > two successes.

> > > > >

> > > > > There will be adaptations and improvements to components

and

> > > > > instrumentation as time goes along. The next wave will

most

> > > likely

> > > > > be more cup options and better instrumentation for

minimally

> > > > invasive

> > > > > surgical techniques. These will allow for less scaring and

> > > faster

> > > > > over all healing.

> > > > >

> > > > > The true difference now is in the Surgeon's experience and

> > > comfort

> > > > > level with the instruments and implants. Those in Europe

> have

> > > had

> > > > > approval for a long time and prohably have the most

> experience

> > > of

> > > > any

> > > > > group of surgeons.

> > > > >

> > > > > Here in the U.S. the clear leader is Dr. Amstuz with well

> over

> > > 800

> > > > > implanted on the west coast. The east coast has Dr.

> > > Mont

> > > > > with nearly 300 successful proceedures and a reputation for

> > > taking

> > > > on

> > > > > tough cases. That leaves eight other C+ sites with varing

> > > degrees

> > > > of

> > > > > experience. I dont know their actual numbers and dont

> intend

> > > to

> > > > > minimize their contribution, but I do not want to fabricate

> > > > anything

> > > > > either.

> > > > >

> > > > > I cannot speak for Corin, but I am sure that someone on

this

> > > board

> > > > > can tell us who their most experienced surgeons are.

> > > > >

> > > > > Twenty years from now, we can sit back and tell our

> > > Grandchildren

> > > > > that we were there when it all started.

> > > > >

> > > > > Dave

> > > >

> > > > Hi Dave,

> > > > Thanks for the post. I appreciate your honesty. I also

> believe

> > > that

> > > > everytime you place a post on this website you should make it

> > > > absolutely clear to the readers of this website that you have

> a

> > > > conflict of interest and infuse some bias into your comments

> > > simply

> > > > due to the fact that you work for Medical. I believe

> > that

> > > if

> > > > you wish to stay unbiased all comments regarding the benefits

> of

> > > > Medical hip resurfacing should be avoided - that is

> > unless

> > > you

> > > > are willing to release perioperative, short, intermediate,

and

> > > long-

> > > > term data regarding outcomes as well as complication types

and

> > > rates

> > > > associated with your device. I also believe that it is

> > > inappropriate

> > > > for you to commment either directly or indirectly about other

> > hip

> > > > resurfacing devices unless: a.) You work for the other

> > respective

> > > > companies, b.) Have receiving hip resurfacing procedure done

> > with

> > > the

> > > > other devices, or c.)Have access to the results of studies

> > > performed

> > > > with other devices. However having said that I still

> appreciate

> > > the

> > > > general information you provide about hip resurfacing and

> would

> > > > welcome your continued input.

> > > > Regards,

> > > > Dr. Mark

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

[Guest guest]

Dave is, in my opinion, first of all a patient and fellow hippy. As nice

as it is to have surgeons (and others in the medical field) here, unless

they've been through it, have no idea what the experience is like (ask your

OS about log-leg and can-butt syndrome and see what kind of expression you

get!). He was a poster long before he became affiliated with (as an

employee), and told us straight up when he started working for them.

I've enjoyed so many of the folks here over the years, and continue to

celebrate with the new hippies and new anniversaries as they roll around

for all of us, and commiserate with those who have not been so fortunate

with their hips. I stay around hoping that perhaps I still have something

valuable to contribute from my own experience, and to learn from others as

ideas and techniques progress. This is one of the most intelligent,

well-read group of folks I have ever had the pleasure to " meet " and I think

it is the pioneering, inquisitive nature of most of us that also sparks

debate, sometimes quite heatedly. So be it! As long as we don't resort to

name calling and bashing, I welcome discussion and argument. It is from

that, that I continue to learn.

Cindy

C+ 5/25/01 and 6/28/01

[Guest guest]

Dave is, in my opinion, first of all a patient and fellow hippy. As nice

as it is to have surgeons (and others in the medical field) here, unless

they've been through it, have no idea what the experience is like (ask your

OS about log-leg and can-butt syndrome and see what kind of expression you

get!). He was a poster long before he became affiliated with (as an

employee), and told us straight up when he started working for them.

I've enjoyed so many of the folks here over the years, and continue to

celebrate with the new hippies and new anniversaries as they roll around

for all of us, and commiserate with those who have not been so fortunate

with their hips. I stay around hoping that perhaps I still have something

valuable to contribute from my own experience, and to learn from others as

ideas and techniques progress. This is one of the most intelligent,

well-read group of folks I have ever had the pleasure to " meet " and I think

it is the pioneering, inquisitive nature of most of us that also sparks

debate, sometimes quite heatedly. So be it! As long as we don't resort to

name calling and bashing, I welcome discussion and argument. It is from

that, that I continue to learn.

Cindy

C+ 5/25/01 and 6/28/01

[Guest guest]

Cindy,

I agree with you about the extent of intellience and experience on this site!

As a person now happily waitng for 1 to 11/2 years and on a cancellation list

here in Vancouver (Canada), I love this site! I once unsubscribed a few weeks

ago because of the daily 50 to 60 emails, but now am addicted to reading all of

them daily. I feel fortunate that my OS (Dr. Garbuz) is a member of a 4 OS team

who all now do Hip resurfacing. This pool of talent and shared experience gives

me great confidence. Their chosing the Durom device after having used the BHR,

I now also am confident with. I also am grateful that I only have to pay for

the prosthesis.($3,000 Cdn) to have this operation and that I now am not tempted

to travel to a different country (e.g. Belgium). a Brook who wrote 2

excellent articles in our Vancouver Sun newspaper has probaly been most

influential on my decison making. She wrote how she had discovered this site

and after much thought decided to be Dr. Masri's (one of the 4 with Dr. Garbuz)

first HIp Resurfacing patients a number of months ago. His waiting list was

very small when a had hers done, but now is probably as long as the other 3

OSs. I would like to share my exercise advice to those who are still suffering

prior to operations. I had been doing mostly the Xtrainer stepper and a little

stair master daily and would hit the odd tennis ball when I felt that my hip was

relatively pain free. I now do only the stair master almost everyday for 1/2

hour at level 8 and I am convinced that the hip muscle around my afflicted hip

is a lot stronger and has taken a lot of the pressure off of my hip. I have

stopped going on the tennis court to avoid wearing the bone of my hip because I

virtually have no cartilege left. The Personal Trainer in my gymn confirmed for

me that the stair master does develop the hip muscles most effectively and is

also a " better " and more difficult exercise than the XTrainer machine. Better

for the cardio vascular as well. When I spoke with Dr. Garbuz last, he did

confirm that there is increasing evidence of the value of regular appropriate

exercise for osteoarthritis patients. I have for a long time believed in the

value of endorfins that are released that are good for your stress, pain

reduction, and feeling of well being.. Thanks to you all for sharing and

contributing!

Ted

Re: Re: Spirited Debate, Facts and Opinions

Dave is, in my opinion, first of all a patient and fellow hippy. As nice

as it is to have surgeons (and others in the medical field) here, unless

they've been through it, have no idea what the experience is like (ask your

OS about log-leg and can-butt syndrome and see what kind of expression you

get!). He was a poster long before he became affiliated with (as an

employee), and told us straight up when he started working for them.

I've enjoyed so many of the folks here over the years, and continue to

celebrate with the new hippies and new anniversaries as they roll around

for all of us, and commiserate with those who have not been so fortunate

with their hips. I stay around hoping that perhaps I still have something

valuable to contribute from my own experience, and to learn from others as

ideas and techniques progress. This is one of the most intelligent,

well-read group of folks I have ever had the pleasure to " meet " and I think

it is the pioneering, inquisitive nature of most of us that also sparks

debate, sometimes quite heatedly. So be it! As long as we don't resort to

name calling and bashing, I welcome discussion and argument. It is from

that, that I continue to learn.

Cindy

C+ 5/25/01 and 6/28/01

[Guest guest]

Cindy,

I agree with you about the extent of intellience and experience on this site!

As a person now happily waitng for 1 to 11/2 years and on a cancellation list

here in Vancouver (Canada), I love this site! I once unsubscribed a few weeks

ago because of the daily 50 to 60 emails, but now am addicted to reading all of

them daily. I feel fortunate that my OS (Dr. Garbuz) is a member of a 4 OS team

who all now do Hip resurfacing. This pool of talent and shared experience gives

me great confidence. Their chosing the Durom device after having used the BHR,

I now also am confident with. I also am grateful that I only have to pay for

the prosthesis.($3,000 Cdn) to have this operation and that I now am not tempted

to travel to a different country (e.g. Belgium). a Brook who wrote 2

excellent articles in our Vancouver Sun newspaper has probaly been most

influential on my decison making. She wrote how she had discovered this site

and after much thought decided to be Dr. Masri's (one of the 4 with Dr. Garbuz)

first HIp Resurfacing patients a number of months ago. His waiting list was

very small when a had hers done, but now is probably as long as the other 3

OSs. I would like to share my exercise advice to those who are still suffering

prior to operations. I had been doing mostly the Xtrainer stepper and a little

stair master daily and would hit the odd tennis ball when I felt that my hip was

relatively pain free. I now do only the stair master almost everyday for 1/2

hour at level 8 and I am convinced that the hip muscle around my afflicted hip

is a lot stronger and has taken a lot of the pressure off of my hip. I have

stopped going on the tennis court to avoid wearing the bone of my hip because I

virtually have no cartilege left. The Personal Trainer in my gymn confirmed for

me that the stair master does develop the hip muscles most effectively and is

also a " better " and more difficult exercise than the XTrainer machine. Better

for the cardio vascular as well. When I spoke with Dr. Garbuz last, he did

confirm that there is increasing evidence of the value of regular appropriate

exercise for osteoarthritis patients. I have for a long time believed in the

value of endorfins that are released that are good for your stress, pain

reduction, and feeling of well being.. Thanks to you all for sharing and

contributing!

Ted

Re: Re: Spirited Debate, Facts and Opinions

Dave is, in my opinion, first of all a patient and fellow hippy. As nice

as it is to have surgeons (and others in the medical field) here, unless

they've been through it, have no idea what the experience is like (ask your

OS about log-leg and can-butt syndrome and see what kind of expression you

get!). He was a poster long before he became affiliated with (as an

employee), and told us straight up when he started working for them.

I've enjoyed so many of the folks here over the years, and continue to

celebrate with the new hippies and new anniversaries as they roll around

for all of us, and commiserate with those who have not been so fortunate

with their hips. I stay around hoping that perhaps I still have something

valuable to contribute from my own experience, and to learn from others as

ideas and techniques progress. This is one of the most intelligent,

well-read group of folks I have ever had the pleasure to " meet " and I think

it is the pioneering, inquisitive nature of most of us that also sparks

debate, sometimes quite heatedly. So be it! As long as we don't resort to

name calling and bashing, I welcome discussion and argument. It is from

that, that I continue to learn.

Cindy

C+ 5/25/01 and 6/28/01