Re: : Vitamin question

[Guest guest]

,

I know you posted something about our kids not needing as much vitamins

yesterday. I don't have it now. Well, my son started vitamins as prescribed by

the Pfeiffer Treatment Center last week. He has been extremely cranky ever

since. I have no idea which supplement (/s) is causing this. But, it is very

frustrating. Can you resend me the link / literature that you had posted?

Also, if you had any suggestions that would be great.

Thanks,

Deb-----------------------------------------------------------------------------\

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[Guest guest]

why not post what the prescription is and people can comment?

> ,

> I know you posted something about our kids not needing as much

vitamins yesterday. I don't have it now. Well, my son started

vitamins as prescribed by the Pfeiffer Treatment Center last week.

He has been extremely cranky ever since. I have no idea which

supplement (/s) is causing this. But, it is very frustrating. Can

you resend me the link / literature that you had posted?

>

> Also, if you had any suggestions that would be great.

>

> Thanks,

> Deb-----------------------------------------------------------------

---------------Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download :

http://explorer.msn.com

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

,

The following supplements are what was prescribed. (Pfeiffer cautions everybody

that this is very individualized and is different from patient to patient.):

Vit E, Vit B6, Vit B12, biotin, Vit C, Methionine, Manganese gluconate.

I also noticed today that some of the vitamins (Twinlabs) have MCT in them! The

Vit E is soybean based. Duh!

So, I may have to take everything back to Whole Foods!

Thanks for listening.

Deb---------------------------------------------------------------------------Ge\

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[Guest guest]

most vitamin e is soy based and as far as i can see is not a problem.

maybe because it is a selective extraction and very small quantity. i

think the amounts of each vitamin/mineral have to be posted cause

usually this is were the trouble is. even so i can't say i am that

impressed by the range of what has been prescribed. proably needs to

be balanced out by a low rda broad spectrum b vit but its guessing

unless the quanties are known. a simple rule of thumb is to go

through and compare the doses with the rdas and they should not be

too many multiples away unless there is some specific issue and he

has been demonstrated to do well on like high b12 since an inflamed

gut can inhibit b12 absorbtion.

> ,

> The following supplements are what was prescribed. (Pfeiffer

cautions everybody that this is very individualized and is different

from patient to patient.):

> Vit E, Vit B6, Vit B12, biotin, Vit C, Methionine, Manganese

gluconate.

>

> I also noticed today that some of the vitamins (Twinlabs) have MCT

in them! The Vit E is soybean based. Duh!

>

> So, I may have to take everything back to Whole Foods!

>

> Thanks for listening.

> Deb-----------------------------------------------------------------

----------Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download :

http://explorer.msn.com

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

>>> I know you posted something about our kids not needing as much

vitamins yesterday. I don't have it now. Well, my son started

vitamins as prescribed by the Pfeiffer Treatment Center last week.

He has been extremely cranky ever since. I have no idea which

supplement (/s) is causing this. But, it is very frustrating. Can

you resend me the link / literature that you had posted?

If this is the article, the research is just confirming that

excessive vitamins in the general sense can be harmful or supresses

the immune system. Not that 'your child with autism shouldn't take

larger amounts of vitamins ever.' This author of the research has

several studies on this. Did Pffeiffer 'warn' you that this may

happen? or suggest you start really slowly? there is a Pfeiffer

group and someone there may be on something similar.

.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Prog Food Nutr Sci 1986;10(1-2):1-65 Related Articles, Links

Nutrition, immune response, and outcome.

Chandra S, Chandra RK.

The immune system plays a key role in the body's ability to fight

infection and reduce the risk of developing tumors, autoimmune and

degenerative disease. Nutritional deficiencies and excesses

influence various components of the immune system. Early studies

investigating the association between nutrition and immunity focused

on generalized protein-energy malnutrition, particularly in children

in developing countries. The extent of immunological impairment

depends not only on the severity of malnutrition but on the presence

of infection and on the age of onset of nutritional deprivation,

among other factors. In industrialized nations, immune function has

been shown to be compromised in many malnourished hospitalized

patients, small-for-gestational age infants, and the elderly.

Obesity also may adversely influence immune function. Imbalances of

single nutrients are relatively uncommon in humans, and

investigations of protein and amino acids and specific vitamins,

minerals, and trace elements generally are carried out in

experimental animals. Deficiencies of protein and some amino acids,

as well as vitamins A, E, B6 and folate, are associated with reduced

immunocompetence. In contrast, excessive intake of fat, in

particular polyunsaturated fatty acids (e.g. linoleic and

arachidonic acids), iron, and vitamin E are immunosuppressive. Trace

elements modulate immune responses through their critical role in

enzyme activity. Both deficiency and excess of trace elements have

been recognized. Although dietary requirements of most of these

elements are met by a balanced diet, there are certain population

groups and specific disease states which are likely to be associated

with deficiency of one or more of these essential elements. The role

of trace elements in maintenance of immune function and their causal

role in secondary immunodeficiency is increasingly being recognized.

There is growing research concerning the role of zinc, copper,

selenium, and other elements in immunity and the mechanisms that

underlie such roles. The problem of interaction of trace elements

and immunity is a complex one because of the frequently associated

other nutritional deficiencies, the presence of clinical or

subclinical infections which in themselves have a significant effect

on immunity, and finally the altered metabolism due to the

underlying disease. There are many practical applications of our

recently acquired knowledge regarding nutritional regulation of

immunity.(ABSTRACT TRUNCATED AT 400 WORDS)

Publication Types:

Review

PMID: 3097756 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

[Guest guest]

>>> Vit E, Vit B6, Vit B12, biotin, Vit C, Methionine, Manganese

gluconate.

The B6 easily causes 'hyperness' or upset-ness in people, but how

much is in the dose you are giving at this point?

.

[Guest guest]

> >>> I know you posted something about our kids not needing as much

> vitamins yesterday. I don't have it now. Well, my son started

> vitamins as prescribed by the Pfeiffer Treatment Center last week.

> He has been extremely cranky ever since. I have no idea which

> supplement (/s) is causing this. But, it is very frustrating. Can

> you resend me the link / literature that you had posted?

>

> If this is the article, the research is just confirming that

> excessive vitamins in the general sense can be harmful or supresses

> the immune system. Not that 'your child with autism shouldn't take

> larger amounts of vitamins ever.' This author of the research has

> several studies on this. Did Pffeiffer 'warn' you that this may

> happen? or suggest you start really slowly? there is a Pfeiffer

> group and someone there may be on something similar.

>

> .

>

>

> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>

>

> Prog Food Nutr Sci 1986;10(1-2):1-65 Related Articles, Links

> Nutrition, immune response, and outcome.

> Chandra S, Chandra RK.

>

> The immune system plays a key role in the body's ability to fight

> infection and reduce the risk of developing tumors, autoimmune and

> degenerative disease. Nutritional deficiencies and excesses

> influence various components of the immune system. Early studies

> investigating the association between nutrition and immunity focused

> on generalized protein-energy malnutrition, particularly in children

> in developing countries. The extent of immunological impairment

> depends not only on the severity of malnutrition but on the presence

> of infection and on the age of onset of nutritional deprivation,

> among other factors. In industrialized nations, immune function has

> been shown to be compromised in many malnourished hospitalized

> patients, small-for-gestational age infants, and the elderly.

> Obesity also may adversely influence immune function. Imbalances of

> single nutrients are relatively uncommon in humans, and

> investigations of protein and amino acids and specific vitamins,

> minerals, and trace elements generally are carried out in

> experimental animals. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Deficiencies<<<< of protein and some

amino acids,

> as well as vitamins A, E, B6 and folate, are associated with reduced

> immunocompetence.(g.P.-defeciencies of vit. A,E,B6 and Folate, not 'large

doses of' as cause) In contrast, >>>>>>>>excessive intake of fat, in

>>>>>>> particular polyunsaturated fatty acids (e.g. linoleic and

> arachidonic acids), iron, and vitamin E are immunosuppressive.<<(here it says

excessive intake of ..vit.E plus other EFA's and Iron)... Trace

> elements modulate immune responses through their critical role in

> enzyme activity. Both deficiency and excess of trace elements have

> been recognized. Although dietary requirements of most of these

> elements are met by a balanced diet,(g.peg, Note, it says a Balanced

diet...how many of our kids eat a balanced diet? And even if they do, then have

some other element, such as a trace element missing so they can't assimilate?

Which is a basic reason for our using enzymes..I think)........ >>>>>>>>>there

are certain population

>>>>>>>> groups and specific disease >>>>>>>states which are likely to be

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>associated

>>>>>>>>>>> with deficiency of one or >>>>>>>>>>more of these essential

elements. (??g.peg. such as ASD, ADHD,celiacs,schizophrenics, etc.???) The role

> of trace elements in maintenance of immune function and their causal

> role in secondary immunodeficiency is increasingly being recognized.

> There is growing research concerning the role of zinc, copper,

> selenium, and other elements in immunity and the mechanisms that

> underlie such roles. The problem of interaction of trace elements

> and immunity is a complex one >>>>>>>because of the frequently associated

>>>>>>> other nutritional deficiencies, the presence of clinical or

>>>>> subclinical infections which in >>>>>>>themselves have a significant

effect

>>>>>> on immunity, and finally the >>>>>>altered metabolism due to the

>>>>>>> underlying disease. (g.peg, To me, this describes our kids to a 'T'...).

There are many practical applications of our

> recently acquired knowledge regarding nutritional regulation of

> immunity.(ABSTRACT TRUNCATED AT 400 WORDS)

>

> Publication Types:

> Review

>

> PMID: 3097756 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]-------------------------------

Grandma Peg REPLIES: Funny, I've read this article over 4 times to get the 'fix'

on it and found very little about high vitamin use causing immuno-defeciency but

rather the lack of those vitamins causing immuno-suppression. It goes on to say,

in paragraph following that one that high intake of EFA's of a certain type,

polyunsaturated..(? I think it says, which would also include Olive oil use..)

and EXCESS of Vit. E, which most of us don't give our kids and excess, some

above the RDA but RDA's are 'supposed' to be set too low for this day and age

and the average person. I'm not sure of the 'saturate' description of such EFA's

as Flax, Eve. Primrose Oil or borage oil, which many of use but don't think it's

in excess either. If these kids are defecient in EFA's, or have that copper/zinc

imbalance, an amount which is above min. daily req. is apt to be used because

they're lacking the body elements to 'fix' this or keep it regulated. Large

doses of vitamins is something the allopathic, reg. med. world, has been honking

for years while those lacking in health have been getting well, or better, on

them. And, to my knowledge, there's hardly a reg. person around who eats a

balanced diet today and even if they do, the nutritional value in foods has

become lacking to a great extent, even the FDA says this. Of course, there are

some vitamins we must be careful with as they do become toxic at EXTREMELY high

levels, such as over 300,000 units of vit.A over a prolonged period of

time...without a Dr's prescription as a therapeutic dose. Others... if a nausea

or stomach upset occurs after use, discontinue it at that level of amount, at

least. Also, that's another reason the advise is to spread out the amounts over

the day in multi-amounts...in a normal body function, the body uses the amount

needed at the time of taking and Usually excretes the rest, right then, except

in the case of vit. A which it stores in the liver. So, the body usually has a

self protective system this way. And so, taking the divisons of a total amount

at different times will cause the body to get more of a vitamin, or supplement,

before it kicks out the rest. Even enzymes follow this route, otherwise, we'd

take one or 2 in the morning, and no more for the rest of the day...they aren't

stored, and neither are many of the vitamins and supplements. If a knowledgeable

med. person has given a prescribed amount, especially after testing has been

done, IMO, That-those- amoounts can be trusted. As if often recounted on this

board, hyperness may follow the use at first...then you back down the amounts

given at one time or in one day and work up to the prescribed amount. IMO, most

of our kids are so defecient with disabled functions, they need vitmains and

supplements..And Enzymes,..for healing. If in doubt, and a Dr. ordered the

amounts, call them, They have the answers where as many of us are guessing or

repeating something we've read in health related items..(me, for instance). Now,

back to this article, I got an idea of what it says which seems to be different

from 's. But the vitamins and minerals shouldn't be played at however many

of us can't afford the testing that would be needed so we do engage in guessing

at amounts. Grandma Peg

[Guest guest]

Hi, Grandma Peg.

After my 'signature' I included a few more studies. Don't get me

wrong, you may very well get something completely different out of

it and that is fine. That is what discussions are for. But I may

have been going through a lot of studies and only supplied one as an

example which did not adequately convey the total point. From the

following ones, it seems to me that excessive supplementation can be

a problem as can deficiencies. It seems that the system must be in

balance as a whole and if one or two things are supplied

excessively, then you mess something else up. I talked to a

nutritionist about our situation about a year ago. She said right

off not to do the popular mega-doses because they can be 'hard' on a

sensitive system, and you could throw something out of whack. She

said increasing nutrients/supplements some across the board would be

okay for us, but not to just start throwing huge amounts of selected

things at the problem.

I agree also that if someone is getting personal care with a doctor

or clinic that is special to their situation (and very nice to

have). General information like what is presented here, is just

that, general in nature.

Fun Fact from Ag: one of the top fertilizer inputs in the world is

nitrogen (green leaves, plant growth, building protein, etc). BUT if

you put the nitrogen on in the wrong way or put too much, it burns

the plant roots right off. (Ouch!)

.

ASDC J Dent Child 1987 May-Jun;54(3):193-7 Related Articles, Links

Nutrition and immunity: I. Basic considerations. II. Practical

applications.

Chandra RK.

Nutrition, immunity and infection are intricately linked to one

another. Nutritional deficiencies and excesses influence various

components of the immune system. Early studies investigating the

association between nutrition and immunity focused on generalized

protein-energy malnutrition, particularly in children in developing

countries. The extent of immunological impairment depends not only

on the severity of malnutrition but on the presence of infection and

on the age of onset of nutritional deprivation, among other factors.

In industrialized nations, immune function has been shown to be

comprised in many malnourished hospitalized patients, small-for-

gestational-age infants and the elderly. Obesity also may adversely

influence immune function. Imbalances of single nutrients are

relatively uncommon in humans and investigations of protein and

amino acids and specific vitamins, minerals and trace elements

generally are carried out in experimental animals. Deficiencies of

protein and some amino acids, as well as vitamins A, E, B6 and

folate, and trace minerals are associated with reduced

immunocompetence. In contrast, excessive intake of fat, in

particular polyunsaturated fatty acids, iron and vitamin E are

immunosuppressive. Knowledge regarding nutritional regulation of

immunity is leading to many practical applications.

Publication Types:

Review

PMID: 3294951 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Nippon Rinsho 1996 Jan;54(1):46-51 Related Articles, Links

Essential trace elements and immunity

Kodama H.

Department of Pediatrics, Teikyo University School of Medicine.

The effects of zinc, iron, copper and selenium on the immune system

are reviewed. Among the essential trace elements in humans, zinc,

iron, copper and selenium are essential for the integrity and

optimum function of the immunity. Although each element has

different functions in the immune system, the deficiencies in each

of these elements mainly causes the dysfunction of cell-mediated

immunity. Deficiencies do not significantly effect the B cell

function. These immunological abnormalities can be improved by

supplementation of deficient elements. However, excess

supplementation also impairs the immune system. Therefore, a proper

balance of these elements is essential for maintenance of

immunocompetence.

Publication Types:

Review

Review, Tutorial

PMID: 8587204 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Am J Clin Nutr 1997 Aug;66(2):460S-463S Related Articles, Links

Nutrition and the immune system: an introduction.

Chandra RK.

Department of Pediatrics, Memorial University of Newfoundland,

Canada.

Nutrition is a critical determinant of immune responses and

malnutrition the most common cause of immunodeficiency worldwide.

Protein-energy malnutrition is associated with a significant

impairment of cell-mediated immunity, phagocyte function, complement

system, secretory immunoglobulin A antibody concentrations, and

cytokine production. Deficiency of single nutrients also results in

altered immune responses: this is observed even when the deficiency

state is relatively mild. Of the micronutrients, zinc; selenium;

iron; copper; vitamins A, C, E, and B-6; and folic acid have

important influences on immune responses. Overnutrition and obesity

also reduce immunity. Low-birth-weight infants have a prolonged

impairment of cell-mediated immunity that can be partly restored by

providing extra amounts of dietary zinc. In the elderly, impaired

immunity can be enhanced by modest amounts of a combination of

micronutrients. These findings have considerable practical and

public health significance.

Publication Types:

Review

Review, Tutorial

PMID: 9250133 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]