Re: Re: Vaginal Birth After C-section-

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 2/27/2004 3:28:12 PM Eastern Standard Time,

karensue65@... writes:

Now that I've rambled, I will take a c-section any day over labor.

I make myself get up within hours after surgery and start walking,

walking and walking. I've gone out shopping 5 days after surgery

both times, the 2nd time being easier than the first.

Sue

EDD 6/11/04

My c/s were a piece of cake.. and I can understand that it is NOT that way

for everyone! In fact I've been told I'm " odd " (which isn't a big surprise ;-)

) b/c with my last c/s I had absolutely NO pain!!! I got up, walked to the

bathroom, brushed my hair, teeth and continued down the hall to the nursery..

all while standing UPRIGHT! Would I choose a VBAC this time?! NOPE! For *me*

c/s is my way of delivery.. and I'll be damned if anyone tells me I'm " wrong " !

I was up shopping the day I was released with each delivery.. yep no

problems!

While I understand it isn't that way for everyone.. it was for me! I " don't

get " a lot of the whole VBAC to make me feel like a woman thing (no flames

just my thoughts) and I don't understand feeling " down " that you didn't get to

go

" natural " ! I don't get it.. I mean having a baby alive, happy and healthy

IMNSHO is ALL that matters!!! After having a stillborn.. I guess I'm biased to

knowing that its all about a healthy outcome.. NOT about what I thought was

" supposed " to be! Was I " supposed " to be Fat?! Was I " supposed " to lose my

mom when I was 8?! Who knows.. thats the way life took me.. and I go on knowing

that life goes ITS own way.. and I'm not one to sit and whine about " what

might've been! " Again this is all JMO and I've had it with another list (not

this one) complaining about their c/s! IMNSHO " get over it " life GOES ON!

*~Joy~*

Lap RNY @ 491lbs

2/26/01

Mommy to:

(5) , Saralyn (4), Hunter (7/3/03)

and

#4 due sometime in September '04!

We have 3 kids, soon we'll have FOUR!

After this one,

Quoth Raven...

NEVERMORE!

[Guest guest]

Just to counter everyone else's personal post-cesarean

birth stories...

I had a cesarean with my daughter after 2 days of labor,

51 hours after my water broke - never got past 4cm

dilation. Had a relatively easy recovery compared to

many.

was told that I'd " never have a vaginal delivery " ...told

the " small pelvis " thing, not a proven pelvis, only

5'2 " ...yadda yadda yadda.

Fast forward 3 years and 3 weeks in the future and I

was full term pregnant with my youngest child (who will

be 18 months old on monday). Slipped easily into labor

on my own...textbook labor. Had a BEAUTIFUL and

empowering birth at home in my bathtub with my NEW

doctor and midwife watching (along with my mother,

doula, and both of my other children) as my husband

caught his newest son and lifted him into my arms. My

labor and delivery was one of the most awesome and

beautiful experiences I've ever had...laboring in my

bathtub with my mother, my husband, and my two

children telling me how wonderful I was...

I have video of both of my deliveries..and I've attended

hundreds of deliveries as a doula and then again as an

apprentice midwife. Every cesarean I've ever seen

(including mine) has felt " brutal " to me...what is done to

the mom, how the baby is treated, etc. Watching the

video of my last birth - fills me wish such awesome

feelings I can't even put into words.

I researched all the pros/cons, both sides, in and

out...and for me and my situation (my reason for a

cesarean, the way my current pregnancy was going,

etc), a VBAC was much safer for me than a repeat

cesarean.

Now that all of that is said...it shouldn't mean much to

anybody else but myself.

Every pregnancy is different...every baby is

different...every woman is different. Our jobs as

parents is to look at the benefits/risks of everything, and

then do whatever we feel is best for our children and

ourselves. Just because I felt empowered by my birth

doesn't mean everyone will...and just because someone

else felt that they had a good cesarean experience

doesn't mean everyone will. you just need to look at

YOURSELF, not others, and evaluate YOUR situation,

and decide for yourself what is best for your baby and

for you...

If/when I have my 4th baby...s/he will absolutely be born

at home and vaginally so long as there aren't

circumstances that arise that change the situation...

Soderblom CCCE CD(DONA) CLD

Student Midwife - Mesa, AZ

CAPPA Board of Directors

Doula/CBE/Pregnancy/Birth Photography

Owner: Birth Story Diaries - real births, real photos

http://www.birthdiaries.com

Owner: SouthwestDoulas.com

[Guest guest]

>

> While I understand it isn't that way for everyone.. it

was for me! I

> " don't get " a lot of the whole VBAC to make me feel

like a woman thing

> (no flames just my thoughts)

I agree with you...

you are no more or less a woman depending on your

method of delivery.

Neither are you more or less of a woman if you've never

had babies at all.

neither are you more or less of a woman if you are

married or not...fat or thin...young or old...

>and I don't understand feeling " down "

> that you didn't get to go " natural " ! I don't get it..

You've never had something that you've wanted and

been denied?

You've never wanted to experience something, but

were unable to do it?

I am a little surprised that someone would NOT

understand the disappointment felt by women when

they desire a vaginal delivery and yet end up with a

cesarean...

> I mean having

> a baby alive, happy and healthy IMNSHO is ALL that

matters!!!

but that's you...

others (like myself) also care about how that comes

about. Obviously baby being alive happy and healthy

are MOST important - I think I proved that by having a

cesarean.

But being MOST important doesn't mean it has to be

the ONLY thing important.

Would you have been disappointed if the father of your

baby wasn't able to be there? If so..why? If the ONLY

thing important is that the baby is alive, happy, and

healthy...why would you be disappointed if he weren't

there?

Same thing...if you have strong feelings (such as I do)

about the birth experience and the way you want to

bring your baby into the world...it is very understandable

that should that not occur you'd be disappointed.

> After

> having a stillborn.. I guess I'm biased to knowing that

its all about

> a healthy outcome.. NOT about what I thought was

" supposed " to be!

I've had losses, too...and went through 6 years of

infertility.

Caring about the birth experience does not mean you

love your baby any less...doesn't mean you care less

about having a healthy outcome...

just means that there are other things you care about

ALSO.

> Again this is all JMO and I've had it with

> another list (not this one) complaining about their c/s!

IMNSHO " get

> over it " life GOES ON!

>

And this feels a lot to me like the people who told me to

stop complaining and move on when we lost our

daughter....that we had one healthy son, and life goes

on so get over it.

Just because you don't care about how your baby is

brought into the world doesn't mean others don't have

the right to care. I wanted to bring my child into the

world in a gentle manner...welcoming them into my

arms, feeling the baby slip out of me, holding my warm

wet baby against my chest and look into their eyes as

they took their first breath, having mine and daddy's

hands welcome our baby gently into the world.

Instead she got cut out of me, roughly handled by the

hospital staff in a very cold and very brightly lit room.

Maybe you're under the mistaken impression that I only

cared about my scar and healing....when truth is I cared

more about missing the beginning of her life outside of

me and the way she was treated when she first entered

this world.

SHe's healthy...yes...and that was why I had a

cesarean. Because that was more important than

anything else. But after that...I was very

disappointed...and as much as you have the right to feel

like it's no big deal, and as much as others have the

right to feel that cesareans are wonderful...I also have

the right to feel that they are brutal and not a nice way

for my daughter to enter this world.

I'd NEVER judge you for liking your cesareans or tell

you that your feelings concerning your stillbirth were

wrong or tell you how you should feel...

and I don't think it's really cool for you to tell others how

they should and shouldn't feel just because you don't

feel the same way.

Soderblom CCCE CD(DONA) CLD

Student Midwife - Mesa, AZ

CAPPA Board of Directors

Doula/CBE/Pregnancy/Birth Photography

Owner: Birth Story Diaries - real births, real photos

http://www.birthdiaries.com

Owner: SouthwestDoulas.com

[Guest guest]

I'm going to preface my reply by stating that I've seen MANY arguments on

this subject and it grates on my nerves! I've also seen join in each

time I make a comment on it to tell me I'm " wrong " which is fine! I'm sure

I'll be " gagged " but I'm done sitting back and listening to how WONDERFUL

VBAC/HBAC is when there is risk there (and having it happen to friends.) Yes CS

have

risks.. but those are ones I'm willing to take!

So here is my reply. I think one's feelings are valid and should be

addressed by clinical personnel, but I don't think that years later one should

be

dwelling on the method of birth! Again JMO!

In a message dated 2/27/2004 5:28:08 PM Eastern Standard Time,

elfanie@... writes:

> While I understand it isn't that way for everyone.. it

was for me! I

> " don't get " a lot of the whole VBAC to make me feel

like a woman thing

> (no flames just my thoughts)

I agree with you...

you are no more or less a woman depending on your

method of delivery.

Neither are you more or less of a woman if you've never

had babies at all.

neither are you more or less of a woman if you are

married or not...fat or thin...young or old...

Very true.. but the comments I hear from MANY is that they were " robbed " of

their womanhood by being " tricked " into a c/s. How do you honestly KNOW you

were tricked?! I mean are people that paranoid that the OB's are " out to get

'em?! "

>and I don't understand feeling " down "

> that you didn't get to go " natural " ! I don't get it..

You've never had something that you've wanted and

been denied?

You've never wanted to experience something, but

were unable to do it?

Of course I had what an assinine question! BUT I don't dwell on it and make

others listen to me whine that I got a ice water with lemon instead of

without. The whole point of the drink was to quench my thirst and that was

accomplished!

I am a little surprised that someone would NOT

understand the disappointment felt by women when

they desire a vaginal delivery and yet end up with a

cesarean...

Why would you be surprised?! I mean the WHOLE reason of a pregnancy is the

baby you get at the end! I mean I think it odd a woman get pg JUST to have a

vag birth.. obviously the " child " was a *second!*

> I mean having

> a baby alive, happy and healthy IMNSHO is ALL that

matters!!!

but that's you...

Yep and I'm not alone!

others (like myself) also care about how that comes

about. Obviously baby being alive happy and healthy

are MOST important - I think I proved that by having a

cesarean.

But being MOST important doesn't mean it has to be

the ONLY thing important.

Why on earth would pushing a watermelon out a hole the size of a lemon be so

stinking important?! I mean come on.. what is it deep down you're trying to

prove? I AM WOMAN HEAR ME ROAR?! I dealt with pain during my first c/s.. I

only had an epidural take on one half.. so I felt everything on the right side

of my body. Do I complain?! No.. I don't!

Would you have been disappointed if the father of your

baby wasn't able to be there? If so..why? If the ONLY

thing important is that the baby is alive, happy, and

healthy...why would you be disappointed if he weren't

there?

Yes I'd be disappointed.. I'm not sure anyone in their right mind in a loving

committed relationship would be disappointed their partner wasn't there to

see the arrival of their childs birth. Its important but if it didn't happen

I'm not gonna complain about it. I'd be upset and *let it go!* My Husband was

almost not able to attend my 2nd birth because he had no time off left (it was

our 2nd delivery that year!) and yes I was disappointed but I knew that I'd

deliver our child either way, and he would come as soon as he could. Getting

our child out alive and well was what mattered!

Same thing...if you have strong feelings (such as I do)

about the birth experience and the way you want to

bring your baby into the world...it is very understandable

that should that not occur you'd be disappointed.

I don't get the disappointment.. I suppose I never will!

> After

> having a stillborn.. I guess I'm biased to knowing that

its all about

> a healthy outcome.. NOT about what I thought was

" supposed " to be!

I've had losses, too...and went through 6 years of

infertility.

Caring about the birth experience does not mean you

love your baby any less...doesn't mean you care less

about having a healthy outcome...

just means that there are other things you care about

ALSO.

I never said it had ANYTHING to do with loving your baby ANY less than any

other person.. but how much can you love and care for your child if you're still

bitter over not delivering vaginally?! I mean I know a person who won't

celebrate her next to youngest birth b/c she was born by c/s!!!! I mean come

on..

a child's birth should be celebrated for THEM not for YOU!!! She also said

that her last pg would NOT end in c/s even if she and her baby died.. I mean

seriously you consider that OK?! I think the woman has " issues " to say the

least!

I've had 4 m/c, 1 stillbirth of a twin, 18mos of TTC heartache and am

currently waiting to see if the twin pg I have will continue on as a twin or if

the

2nd gestational sac will reabsorb. I know loss very well.. don't preach to me!

> Again this is all JMO and I've had it with

> another list (not this one) complaining about their c/s!

IMNSHO " get

> over it " life GOES ON!

>

And this feels a lot to me like the people who told me to

stop complaining and move on when we lost our

daughter....that we had one healthy son, and life goes

on so get over it.

Don't go there with me.. I had twins my son was born alive and healthy and

my daughter was stillborn. We were constantly told how lucky we were to still

have our son alive and healthy! I agreed that we were lucky to have our son

alive and healthy, but our daughter was our child as well and as such deserved

our rememberance!

Just because you don't care about how your baby is

brought into the world doesn't mean others don't have

the right to care. I wanted to bring my child into the

world in a gentle manner...welcoming them into my

arms, feeling the baby slip out of me, holding my warm

wet baby against my chest and look into their eyes as

they took their first breath, having mine and daddy's

hands welcome our baby gently into the world.

Instead she got cut out of me, roughly handled by the

hospital staff in a very cold and very brightly lit room.

My children weren't not delivered coldly. They were actually handed to Daddy

who took them to the warmer and cut their cord (no he couldn't seperate them

from me, as it is a sterile field) and got them warmed and wrapped and brought

them to me to snuggle and love! How is that cold?!

Maybe you're under the mistaken impression that I only

cared about my scar and healing....when truth is I cared

more about missing the beginning of her life outside of

me and the way she was treated when she first entered

this world.

It has nothing to do with a scar.. you were the one who brought that up!

SHe's healthy...yes...and that was why I had a

cesarean. Because that was more important than

anything else. But after that...I was very

disappointed...and as much as you have the right to feel

like it's no big deal, and as much as others have the

right to feel that cesareans are wonderful...I also have

the right to feel that they are brutal and not a nice way

for my daughter to enter this world.

And thats your judgement of the situation. Not mine!

I'd NEVER judge you for liking your cesareans or tell

you that your feelings concerning your stillbirth were

wrong or tell you how you should feel...

and I don't think it's really cool for you to tell others how

they should and shouldn't feel just because you don't

feel the same way.

::chokes on glass of water:: I know for a fact after being around this list

for a while and seeing your posts this is a bunch of BS! You have VERY strong

feelings about different subjects and have harshly made them clear. You may

not think you judge but ya do!

All that I stated was JMO and it was *my* feelings about all the whining and

complaining! As I've said *Life goes ON!* Its not for us to sit around and

mope about what we didn't get, but to get up and move on with life. To do so

and be happy for our children!

*~Joy~*

Lap RNY @ 491lbs

2/26/01

Mommy to:

(5) , Saralyn (4), Hunter (7/3/03)

and

#4 due sometime in September '04!

We have 3 kids, soon we'll have FOUR!

After this one,

Quoth Raven...

NEVERMORE!

[Guest guest]

> I've also seen

> join in each time I make a comment on it to tell me I'm

" wrong " which

> is fine!

*confused*

since this is the first time I've ever commented on

it....I'm not sure where this statement came from.

> I'm sure I'll be " gagged " but I'm done sitting back and

> listening to how WONDERFUL VBAC/HBAC is when

there is risk there (and

> having it happen to friends.) Yes CS have risks.. but

those are ones

> I'm willing to take!

>

*shrug*

Yes, VBAC have risks...but those are ones I'm willing to

take!

What's the difference?

> I am a little surprised that someone would NOT

> understand the disappointment felt by women when

> they desire a vaginal delivery and yet end up with a

> cesarean...

>

> Why would you be surprised?! I mean the WHOLE

reason of a pregnancy

> is the baby you get at the end!

That's just it..

for many that's not the WHOLE reason of a

pregnancy....it's not ONLY about the baby you get in the

end. For others it's a journey...and the journey has

value and importance and it's not just about the end

destination.

> I mean I think it odd a woman get pg

> JUST to have a vag birth.. obviously the " child " was a

*second!*

>

Not true...

do you think it's odd that someone puts a lot of planning

and effort into a wedding? After all, it's the marriage

that's important, right? So why should she care about

what dress she wears or whether it's at a church or a JP

or what music is playing? It's not about a wedding..it's

about a marriage, right?

These things aren't mutually exclusive...you aren't given

a choice...like, " Ok, you can either care about the

BABY, or about the BIRTH EXPERIENCE...but you can

only care about one... "

it doesn't work like that. And for many it's not ONLY

about the baby you get in the end...

>

> > I mean having

> > a baby alive, happy and healthy IMNSHO is ALL

that

> matters!!!

>

> but that's you...

>

> Yep and I'm not alone!

>

I never said you were.

However, neither am I alone in feeling that it's not ALL

that matters. The most important, of course! But it's

not ALL that matters to many people..

I have never said that you should care about your birth

experience..

I just don't care for the insinuation that if a mother

DOES care, that she somehow cares less about her

child because of that...

> Why on earth would pushing a watermelon out a hole

the size of a lemon

> be so stinking important?!

Why on earth are many of the things we find

important..important to us?

Why is it so stinkin' important that I got an award last

year? why is it so stinkin' important to me that my

daughter did her ballet recital so successfully? Why is it

to stinkin' important to me what grade I'm going to get in

my class? These things don't mean squat to some

other people...but they do to me...

And there are people out there that care about things

that I don't care about..but I'd never look at them and

basically tell them that they are stupid for caring about

something just because *I* don't care about it...if it's

important to them, it's important to them. doesn't matter

why.

> I mean come on.. what is it deep down

> you're trying to prove? I AM WOMAN HEAR ME

ROAR?!

what was I trying to prove?

Nothing.

What was I trying to experience...that would be a more

appropriate question.

> I dealt with pain

> during my first c/s.. I only had an epidural take on one

half.. so I

> felt everything on the right side of my body. Do I

complain?! No.. I

> don't!

>

good for you...

but for people who care about the birth experience...it

actually has very very little to do with the pain. Nowhere

have I EVER mentioned pain when talking about my

HBAC. Where did I say that?

> Would you have been disappointed if the father of

your

> baby wasn't able to be there? If so..why? If the

ONLY

> thing important is that the baby is alive, happy, and

> healthy...why would you be disappointed if he weren't

> there?

>

> Yes I'd be disappointed.. I'm not sure anyone in their

right mind in a

> loving committed relationship would be disappointed

their partner

> wasn't there to see the arrival of their childs birth.

Wanna bet?

There are MILLIONS of people worldwise who are in

loving committed relationships that do NOT want their

partner there to see the arrival of their child's birth.

You'd be disappointed? And if someone were to roll

their eyes at you and say, " Why in the world would

anyone find that so stinkin' improtant?? " you wouldn't

think that rude at best...and possibly mean?

>Its important

> but if it didn't happen I'm not gonna complain about it.

I'd be upset

> and *let it go!*

You aren't talking about people who can't " let it go " in

your posts..

you're talking about people being disappointed and how

you can't understand that.

e but how much can you love and care for your child

> if you're still bitter over not delivering vaginally?!

Bitter?

or disappointed?

those are two very very different emotions. You were

talking about disappointment...

and you can love and care for your child...and be bitter

over something unrelated...I don't see any hypocrasy

there.

> I mean I know

> a person who won't celebrate her next to youngest

birth b/c she was

> born by c/s!!!! I mean come on.. a child's birth should

be celebrated

> for THEM not for YOU!!!

well...I'll agree with you that this is verging on

neurotic...and is an extreme. Anytime you point to an

extreme you're going to find a nutball sitting there.

> I know loss very

> well.. don't preach to me!

>

*boggles* Saying that I, too, have known loss...that's

preaching to you?

Sheesh....a little defensive and having some anger

issues?

> My children weren't not delivered coldly.

I'm glad you feel that way.

Not every mom who delivers surgically does.

It seems to me that nobody is telling you how you

should feel...it's you telling others how they should feel.

If you're happy with your cesarean, GREAT! That's

awesome...that's how it should be for everyone!

but if you're not happy with it...that's ok and normal,

too...and you shouldn't be told that you're a bad mother

or that you're a whiner. You have a right to your

feelings..whatever they are.

> They were actually handed

> to Daddy who took them to the warmer and cut their

cord (no he

> couldn't seperate them from me, as it is a sterile field)

and got them

> warmed and wrapped and brought them to me to

snuggle and love! How is

> that cold?!

>

I wasn't talking about your baby's birth..

I was talking about my baby's birth.

> ::chokes on glass of water:: I know for a fact after

being around this

> list for a while and seeing your posts this is a bunch of

BS! You

> have VERY strong feelings about different subjects

and have harshly

> made them clear. You may not think you judge but ya

do!

>

No...the reality is that I do not judge others and their

feelings...period.

I've judged MY experiences and MY desires..

but I've helped moms fight for elective cesareans...do I

agree? doesn't matter...it's not my birth.

I've helped moms fight for VBACs...do I agree? Doesn't

matter...it's not my birth.

What I have a VERY strong feeling about is that people

have the right to their own feelings, their own opinions,

and their own desires. They have the right to these

feelings even if I don't feel the same way as they

do....I " d never tell them that they are wrong for what

they feel or toll my eyes at them and tell them to " move

on " ...

Soderblom CCCE CD(DONA) CLD

Student Midwife - Mesa, AZ

CAPPA Board of Directors

Doula/CBE/Pregnancy/Birth Photography

Owner: Birth Story Diaries - real births, real photos

http://www.birthdiaries.com

Owner: SouthwestDoulas.com