Re: did anyone see this in the news?

March 13, 2004

In a message dated 3/12/2004 11:19:57 PM Eastern Standard Time,

just_jennysilver@... writes:

WOMEN ARE NOT VECTORS FOR CHILDREN!! WE HAVE RIGHTS AND CHOSING TO NOT HAVE

MAJOR SUGERY IS A RIGHT WE HAVE. IF SHE CHOSE NOT TO HAVE ANY OTHER ELECTIVE

PROCEDURE SHE WOULD NOT BE IN THIS POSITION TODAY!!

BUT another elective procedure wouldn't include KILLING another person :-(

VERY touchy subject for me and I should probably just keep to myself!

*~Joy~*

Lap RNY @ 491lbs

2/26/01

Mommy to:

(5) , Saralyn (4), Hunter (7/3/03)

and

#4 due sometime in September '04!

We have 3 kids, soon we'll have FOUR!

After this one,

Quoth Raven...

NEVERMORE!

March 13, 2004

In a message dated 3/13/2004 9:06:23 AM Eastern Standard Time,

lori_999us@... writes:

On the news this morning they are saying this woman has a

history of mental illness.

I can understand this as I have a long history of mental illness myself.

Actually was put on permanent disability after a nervous breakdown and know ALL

too well of mental illness. IF she was THAT bad the dr's had the obligation

then to commit her, because she was a danger to herself or others (her

children)! I've had 3 c/s, My first delivery was that of a twin delivery with

my DD

being stillborn in a big phase of mty mental illness, my 2nd delivery my child

had low amniotic fluid and when delivered NONE. I was VERY lucky they

delivered her when they did!! My 3rd delivery was best, and working up to my

4th. I

had a MAJOR fear of hospitals and operations when I delivered my first, my

mother had passed in a hospital 10 days after her gastric bypass (then 15yrs

prior) and I would get ill having to go walk up to the doors of the hospital but

ya know.. I had my c/s and didn't tell them " NO " ! Where does one draw the

line? Who knows!

*~Joy~*

Lap RNY @ 491lbs

2/26/01

Mommy to:

(5) , Saralyn (4), Hunter (7/3/03)

and

#4 due sometime in September '04!

We have 3 kids, soon we'll have FOUR!

After this one,

Quoth Raven...

NEVERMORE!

March 13, 2004

In a message dated 3/13/2004 9:57:03 AM Eastern Standard Time,

hadubin@... writes:

Does anyone know if she has any other children prior to her living twin that

was just born?

Yes she did and when I find the link again I'll share it! She had two

previous deliveries BOTH c/s so her " vanity " wasn't never really in question!

None

of her children reside with her, all were taken away!

*~Joy~*

Lap RNY @ 491lbs

2/26/01

Mommy to:

(5) , Saralyn (4), Hunter (7/3/03)

and

#4 due sometime in September '04!

We have 3 kids, soon we'll have FOUR!

After this one,

Quoth Raven...

NEVERMORE!

March 13, 2004

I HAVE TO ADMIT THAT I THINK THEY SHOULD OF COMMITTED HER OR SOMETHING TO GET

THAT BABY OUT SAFELY IF SHE WAS MENTALLY ILL. IF SHE IS NOT MENTALLY ILL AND

REFUSED THE C-SECTION JUST TO KEEP FROM GETTING A SCAR THEN SHE IS RESPONSIBLE

FOR THE DEATH OF THAT BABY. THIS IS ONLY MY OPINION, I KNOW OTHERS FEEL

DIFFERENTLY AND I DON'T WANT TO CAUSE ANY WAR HERE I SEEN HER PHOTO THOUGH IN

THAT

ARTICLE AND SHE DOES LOOK OUT OF IT, LIKE MORE THAN ONE OF HER IN THERE. I TOO

SUFFER FROM DEPRESSION AND ANXIETY AND ALTHOUGH I HAVE NEVER BEEN TOO

SERIOSLY MENTALLY ILL, I KNOW JUST WHAT I HAVE BEEN THROUGH HAS BEEN HELL AND I

FEEL

BAD FOR ANYONE WHO HAS PROBLEMS. I HOPE THEY HELP HER INSTEAD OF PROSECUTE

HER.

God Bless,

Robin, NorthEastern, NY

EDD- July 27th, 2004

IT'S A BOY!!!!!!

Mommy to:

&

(twin boys 7 1/2),

Madison, daughter, 5 years and

Wife to Pup 15 years (October 31, 1988)

Gastric Bypass Surgery-

October 18th 2002

Start-378, current- 246(pregnant)

goal 170 after baby

March 13, 2004

OMG, I DID NOT KNOW SHE HAD OTHERS VIA C/S. SO WHAT THE HECK GIVES WITH HER.

March 13, 2004

Just thought I would throw this in since alot of you were

wondering...On the news this morning they are saying this woman has a

history of mental illness. In my opinion, this changes everything

about this case. If the mental illness is a real factor, she will no

longer be called a murderer, and her mental status will be the main

focus. Im sure there is alot more to this story and we will hear more

later.

Lori D.

March 13, 2004

I bet there is alot more to this story. We are just hearing the basics of it.

The only thing I can say for myself is this, if my OB wanted to do a c-section

to insure the health of my baby, that is what I would do. I am an advocate of a

safe birth for my baby and myself. That is my opinion, for me. Although, having

been a person who did have a stillbirth, I can't imagine what must be going thru

this woman's mind now. But if she does have a history of mentla illness who

knows. Does anyone know if she has any other children prior to her living twin

that was just born?

Re: Did anyone see this in the news?

Just thought I would throw this in since alot of you were

wondering...On the news this morning they are saying this woman has a

history of mental illness. In my opinion, this changes everything

about this case. If the mental illness is a real factor, she will no

longer be called a murderer, and her mental status will be the main

focus. Im sure there is alot more to this story and we will hear more

later.

Lori D.

Children are a blessing, and a gift from the Lord. -Psalm 127:3

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

March 13, 2004

I didn't know she had other c-sections either.

Re: Re: Did anyone see this in the news?

OMG, I DID NOT KNOW SHE HAD OTHERS VIA C/S. SO WHAT THE HECK GIVES WITH HER.

March 13, 2004

I was watch CNN this morning, and according to the lady, she is saying that they

never told her she needed a c-section and why would the scar matter to her,

since she had already had a c-section before? There has to be more going on

than is being reported.

Niki

Re: Did anyone see this in the news?

Just thought I would throw this in since alot of you were

wondering...On the news this morning they are saying this woman has a

history of mental illness. In my opinion, this changes everything

about this case. If the mental illness is a real factor, she will no

longer be called a murderer, and her mental status will be the main

focus. Im sure there is alot more to this story and we will hear more

later.

Lori D.

Children are a blessing, and a gift from the Lord. -Psalm 127:3

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

March 13, 2004

I believe her exhusband has the children. The girl twin has already been

adopted.

Niki

Re: Re: Did anyone see this in the news?

In a message dated 3/13/2004 9:57:03 AM Eastern Standard Time,

hadubin@... writes:

Does anyone know if she has any other children prior to her living twin that

was just born?

Yes she did and when I find the link again I'll share it! She had two

previous deliveries BOTH c/s so her " vanity " wasn't never really in question!

None

of her children reside with her, all were taken away!

*~Joy~*

Lap RNY @ 491lbs

2/26/01

Mommy to:

(5) , Saralyn (4), Hunter (7/3/03)

and

#4 due sometime in September '04!

We have 3 kids, soon we'll have FOUR!

After this one,

Quoth Raven...

NEVERMORE!

March 13, 2004

I believe her exhusband has the children. The girl twin has already been

adopted.

Niki

Re: Re: Did anyone see this in the news?

In a message dated 3/13/2004 9:57:03 AM Eastern Standard Time,

hadubin@... writes:

Does anyone know if she has any other children prior to her living twin that

was just born?

Yes she did and when I find the link again I'll share it! She had two

previous deliveries BOTH c/s so her " vanity " wasn't never really in question!

None

of her children reside with her, all were taken away!

*~Joy~*

Lap RNY @ 491lbs

2/26/01

Mommy to:

(5) , Saralyn (4), Hunter (7/3/03)

and

#4 due sometime in September '04!

We have 3 kids, soon we'll have FOUR!

After this one,

Quoth Raven...

NEVERMORE!

March 13, 2004

did anyone see this in the news?

>

> I know that many of you have very strong feelings about this as I do. I

also am aware that I might be in the more liberal side of things when it

comes to the women who are posting on this board. this said I need to again

say a few things about this issue....

>

> 1. mental illness or not this women has rights! let us not forget that

she is still a person so to say that she should be locked up or not aloud to

have children is very scary. I am talking 1920 eugenics kind of scary some

are fit to bread and others are not? This is not a fair statement to make.

Buck v. Bell is an interesting example of this . In this case the

Supreme Court ruled that a teenager who got pregnant needed to be

sterilized. She had been raped and her mother was confined to a home for the

mentally ill. The teen was sent back to the home because there was no other

place for her to go -- this was in the early 1900s. The Supreme Court

Justice at the time stated that " Three generations of idiots is enough " and

likened her, her mother and her child to serious criminals. She was forcibly

sterilized.

>

> 2. I would have thought that among women who have all had WLS we would be

more tolerant of people who do controversial things, let us not forget that

there are a lot of people out there and may of you have posted that these

people are your doctors feel that we should not have children. If we start

to say that a mentally ill women should not have children next thing we know

we will not be aloud to have them either because of our choice to have WLS.

YOu bring up a very valid point. I know several ob-gyns who have told women

to have an abortion when they have gotten pregnant a year or more after WLS.

Not to mention those who have told women to abort pregnancies if they get

pregnant before they are a year post op. IF we get pregnant after WLS and

decide to have the baby should we be prosecuted if the baby dies in utero?

After all, we may have gone against doctor's orders in conceiving in the

first place. Hence should we be held for murder? Or endangerment?

Think of women after WLS but also women who have cancer or serious diabetes

or some other illness that get pregnant and carry to term. Should they be

arrested? Food for thought.

>

> 3. In the New York Times yesterday the article said that an autopsy was

done on her stillborn and it reviled that the baby had died several days

earlier. This women may not be to blame for the death of this child. We

don't have all the facts.

>

No we don't have all the facts. WE have probably a portion of the facts that

were released to the media. Whatever could fit in the page requirements.

> 4. in my OPINION if she is prosecuted we open all kinds of doors for women

to loose there rights.. And yes I am pro choice, this does not mean that I

am pro abortion and it certainly does not mean that I think it is OK for

people to use abortion as a form of birth control but it means that I

believe women have the right to make informed decisions about there bodies.

Did we not all make informed decisions about our bodies when we decided to

have WLS???

, here is where I disagree with you. Not all of the people who have WLS

are actually informed. Some don't know how much was bypassed or how their

new bodies work. I have read articles of women (and men) who just wanted to

lose weight and jumped at the chance without trying to learn as much as they

can.

(Though about the abortion aspect I do agree. I can't agree with the idea of

using abortion as a form of birth control but I belive women have the right

to make informed decisions about their bodies especially in cases of rape or

incest.

>

> 5. As some one who is trying hard to get pregnant, and has just learned

that I will need to start fertility treatments if I want that to happen I

respect peoples right to chose. If we did not have choices in life I would

not have the options that I have today.

Good point. Some people think fertility treatments are wrong. So should we

get rid of them? Or maybe charge the people who undergo them with human

cloning or something. Hmmm. And if you use birth control of any type you

should be charged with attempted murder because you are preventing children

from being conceived. There is intent, motive, and action. Hmmmm.

>

> 6. Yes I am a social worker in New York City so I am very liberal but take

a moment to see the other side of this story and don't just focus on a still

born baby think about the implications of women losing there rights.....

>

There are not a lot of facts known about this woman. If she chose not to

have a c-section because she didn't want a scar then that is ridiculous and

she is the most vain, selfish, shallow person in the world in my opinion.

But if that is not the case and she was mentally ill then she needs help and

we need to determine why the system could not provide her the help before

this happened.

Just my two cents worth.

mailto:dferguson@...

March 13, 2004

WOW !

I could not have said it better myself.....

I was feeling kind upset reading some of the posts.

We take our freedoms for granted, I am so glad I live in the U.S. where women

have a say in what happens to our bodies. I also think the media likes to

slant stories to create news sometimes and I think there is a lot to this story

that is yet to come out.

Thanks for making me feel better.

Josie in MI

RNY 11/2000

10/7/03

March 13, 2004

believe me, after working with people as a public servant for 15

years, I have seen people with IQ's less than a wet leaf (or even a

dry one!), so in MY own opinion, they shouldn't be reproducing.

This is my statement as I speak from personal experience.

March 14, 2004

Well, I have to admit I planned on staying a lurker and reading all of the

great info shared on this board, but after I have seen some of the replies to

this post I am APPALLED at some of the responces... you all are kidding me

right??? This woman had 2 C/S before, and KNEW her babies needed to be born 2

weeks before they were. I don't even think that you can bring WLS or any other

aspect of it into this argument. I have watched as a few of you have had

miscarriages, and I would NEVER say that you were at fault for losing your

babies

because you had WLS, alot of times this is part of life. This woman on the

other hand PURPOSEFULLY and WILLFULLY let one of her children DIE!!! I can't

even

believe that the issue of her right to do what she wants with her body would

even come up here. Those were 2 VERY VIABLE human babies with no way to speak

for themselves, and she CHOSE to take one if not both of their lives. I do

think that if they had determined that she had mental issues they SHOULD HAVE

kept her in the hospital and delivered her against her will...... I have a

VERY close connection to a situation so closely parallell to this it is scary,

and I believe that the child that has no voice needs to be protected, they

didn't ask to be born, and aren't able to speak up yet, so we have to " draw a

line

in the sand " when it comes to a VIABLE child and know that there is a point

when some control needs to be exerted over the " thinking " member of the

mother/fetus relationship to ensure that the childs best interests are met. I

am sure

that there are so many different OPINIONS to this, but as a woman who has

struggled with infertility for 12 years just trying concieve, and have done

EVERYTHING in my power... including ELECTIVE WLS, to become a mother, I have NO

SYMPATHY for this woman, I am also " Mentally Ill " if you want to label it like

that because I am Bi-Polar, and take medication, and I would FULLY expect to be

in just the same place she is in if I had made all of the same decisions she

has. There is no guarentee that a mother who has mental issues will pass those

on to her children, just as there isn't one that a child of mentally healthy

parents will not have some issue to that affect. I frankly expectad to see a

lot more posts condeming what this FREAK has done.... oh and the fact that she

lived in UTAH has nothing to do with it just that it happened to be the

geographical location that she lived at per this incident, having lived there

for 5

years myself I know how important families are to the people there. I am in

total agreement with the decision, and I think that if you all thought a

little harder about this you would see just where the state is going with the

charges.

March 14, 2004

The woman also had drugs and alchohol in her system and the babies system.

That alone in many states would temporarily terminate any parental rights.

While the woman was clearly only thinking of herself... I also want to know

why not 1 of the 4 hospitals filed an injunction to do the C-Section?

If any of those doctors believed as strongly as they did.. why wasn't social

services called?

She could have been involuntarily committed until babies were delivered

safely.

This woman's life was at risk too..

It is clear the woman is not stable... drugs/alchohol and not taking meds...

she is NOT the only person to blame here.

The system failed those children... and it wasn't just 1 hospital.. it was 4!

It takes a village to raise a child.

- Open Rny 12/2/03

mommy to:

Noah 10/14/02 - 31 weeker - 3lbs 11 oz - 16.5 inches long

edd 10/28/04

^i^ 7/4/03

March 14, 2004

AMEN MsLipservice!

March 14, 2004

AMEN MsLipservice!

March 14, 2004

I do believe there are people out there who should not reproduce also

but who has the right to say and where is the line drawn? Somw of

these people are mentally fit but abusive and neglective to children

or have 6-7 in foster care because they are not fit. Some people are

not mentally capable of taking care of children (mental illness or IQ

wise) who has the right to decide though? A friend of our family has

a daughter who was born mentally retarded. She is a super sweet

person with the mental capabilities of a 7 year old. She absolutly

loves babies and is so gental and thuroughly caring with the ones she

is around as well as with animals. She also craves attention and love

excessivly. When she was 19 her mother found out that some boys in

the neighborhood were taking advantage of her and having sex with

her. She invited these actions because she thought they were her

boyfriends and loved her. At that point her mother wanted her

surgically steralized because if she were to become pregnant there

was like a 90% chance the baby would also be mentally handicaped.

When the doctors talked to her about it she refused because she would

love a baby more than anything and would not comply. Because she was

over 18 she had the right to choose to be fertile. Eventually things

continued to get out of hand with her and her mother made the heart

breaking decision to have her signed over to the states custody. She

is doing very well and learning to function in society and still gets

to visit with her family occasionally but has no rights and I do

belive since she had been committed she has had her tubes tied

because the state controlles all of her rights. I understand all of

this but feel like it is such a gray area. If you ever saw the

movie " I Am SAM " it deals with a similar issue. In that movie he had

more of a right to be a parent than so many reproducing mentally fit

adults today. I am just saying who has a right to say where the line

is drawn? - Diane

> believe me, after working with people as a public servant for 15

> years, I have seen people with IQ's less than a wet leaf (or even a

> dry one!), so in MY own opinion, they shouldn't be reproducing.

> This is my statement as I speak from personal experience.

March 14, 2004