Re: We're All Crazy, For Why Else Would We Have To Have To See A Shrink?

[Guest guest]

Dear ,

Good question. I am going to tell Emma to

stuff it by email and why. This means that I will have

to shoot myself in the foot somewhat. She may sound

the alarm on me to every baryatric surgeon in Oregon:

" Fatso with cajones. " To me, this situation is not too

different from what I run into surfing the Internet

and trying to buy something. About half the sites are

just not user friendly, and if they really irritate

me, I email the company and tell them about it. Here

is one thing that these sites could do to make their

sites better. They could place a comment window when

the acknowledge your order or your change of heart.

Some day maybe they will improve the site. Having all

these fat people wasting time, and I am one of them,

seeing shrinks and taking these bizarre tests and

thinking that Emma for all of her brains is

going to be able to predict the future with respect to

her patients is a bit much to take.

As far as discrimination against fatties goes, I am

all for it, but if you do it do not expect me to call

it something else or expect me to give you my

business. Emma obviously has a God complex. She really

is into this psych crap just like Rutledge is into it.

That's interesting, , about the transplant

patients. In order to get a transplant you have to

take 'a psychosocial test'. Does this mean that I

won't get my liver transplant because I doodle jets

shooting other jets or frustrate those health care

workers who refuse to let me drive home after a

proctosigmoidoscopy because they believe that I must

be drunk, thanks to the Versed [sic?]? You mean I am

going to have to quit torturing the neighbor's cat or

no transplant?

The underlying issue is one of tyranny produced by

ignorance of the societal basics. As I earlier pointed

out, Uncle Sam has no constitutional role to play in

health care. Any guidelines he or his minions put out

are illegal and unconstitutional. No citizen is

obliged to follow an unconstitutional act, order,

regulation, or rule, according to the 9th and 10th

Amendments.

lcp

I have, , a few other more complex responses up my

sleeves as well.

--- Montgomery marym@...> wrote:

> Dear kind lcp,

> Oh come on, don't be shy. Tell us what you *really*

> think. LOL

>

> As long as there are malpractice attorneys willing

> to sue any doctor for any

> problem a patient has, most WLS surgeons will thing

> long and hard about

> ignoring the NIH guidelines and taking on patients

> without knowing their

> risk for non compliance.

>

> I agree with much of what you have said regarding

> the lack of necessity for

> much of the psych eval pre op for WLS. However it

> is also true that the way

> society treats most MO folk is not conducive to good

> mental health.

>

> FYI most transplant patients are required to have a

> thorough psychosocial

> evaluation. I have seen folks turned down for the

> transplant list for mental

> health reasons. Heart breaking at times.

>

> Since you see the bariatric acceptance of the NIH

> guidelines as wrong. How

> would you propose to so inform the bariatric surgery

> community and change

> their behavior?

>

> in Seattle

> DS 1/5/01 295# BMI 47.6

> 4/5/01 240# BMI 38

> Dr Welker - OHSU

>

> ----- Original Message -----

>

>

> > Sorry, gang, if anyone thought that I was speaking

> for

> > all fatties. What I was really interested in was

> > speaking to all BPD/DS fatties and doing a little

> > consciousness-raising. I am not a puff ball. I

> believe

> > in freedom of preach! I want fat people to get a

> fair

> > shake from the medical community. I want us to be

> > treated like individuals, not as members of the

> fat

> > group. This is what discrimination and prejudice

> are

> > all about. Certainly the responses my words

> provoked

> > were individualistic, even if some over-reacted or

> > simply did not bother to assimilate what was

> before

> > them.

> >

> > 's response was most thoughtful. Still, you

> canna

> > have your cake and eat it too, dearie. Either fat

> > people are being singled out for more than their

> share

> > of stupid psych evaluations, which include the

> MMPI,

> > or they are not. I think they are, and this is

> what B.

> > was complaining about.

> >

> > What the baryatric community should be doing is

> making

> > sure that every chronically and morbidly obese

> patient

> > has a good relationship with his personal

> physician or

> > other health care worker. Why? In order to deal

> with

> > any post-op psychological needs of the patient

> > relating to preop psychiatric problems or post-op

> > weight loss-related depression, etc. Indeed, most

> > personal physicians can handle the psychotropic

> > medications of most patients, and most of us don't

> and

> > won't need a specialist shrink. Indeed, I am in

> favor

> > of most people having a psychologist or

> psychologist

> > interview them because it is a potential learning

> > opportunity. I am all for learning about

> ourselves,

> > but I resent going just because I'm fat and some

> > skinny jerk at the NIH thinks that fat people are

> > nuts. The MMPI is definitely where I think it's

> not

> > at.

> >

> > My point is that the psych evaluations in the

> > baryatric community are not being done to all lung

> > cancer treatment patients prior to chemotherapy or

> > radiation or surgery or to all the cirrhosis

> patients

> > prior to having a liver transplant or treatment or

> to

> > all AIDS patients. This is in spite of the fact

> that

> > all three groups contain numbers of patients with

> > serious and severe mental disorders, many of which

> get

> > ignored and are untreated. Still, only the fatties

> > have to get psyched out. This is hardly guantum

> > mechanics.

> >

> > I have a neighbor, for example, that has been

> treated

> > for lung cancer, which is in permanent remission.

> He

> > continues to smoke and suffer from a plethora of

> > smoking related psychiatric problems, most of

> which

> > are undiagnosed. [There is, I believe, an

> end-stage

> > smoking syndrome that afflicts many long-time

> smokers

> > characterized by depression, procrastination, and

> > withdrawal.]

> >

> > Fat people are being singled out for stupid psych

> > work-ups with psych tests in them because a few of

> our

> > number have preoperative psychological problems of

> a

> > severe kind related to their obesity and cannot be

> > counted on to observe the dietary necessities

> invited

> > by the baryatric surgery.

> >

> > This still is not a good reason for all of us to

> have

> > these psych work-ups even if our beloved NIH says

> > otherwise. The NIH is a political insitution and

> > objectivity is often lacking in its

> pronouncements, as

> > its views on AIDS, for example, has shown. The

> Federal

> > Government has no constitutional role to play in

> > health care, frankly, unless you wish to believe

> that

> > health care falls under the " commerce clause " in

> the

> > Constitution and your ises are like the previous

> > president's did.

> >

> > That the NIH is at the center of this

> discriminatory

> > practice should not surprise anyone who is a

> student

> > of totalitarianism and discrimination, which I am.

> > Read Article I, Section 8, clauses 1-18. The

> powers

> > of the Congress are detailed therein, and there is

> > not, even by penumbra, a single mention of health

> care

> > there or elsewhere in that charter. I doubt that

> our

> > forefathers who passed the Constitution would

> approve

> > how it is being ignored by the Beltway and a

> > dumbed-down people.

> >

> > What's wrong with this business is that, thanks to

> a

> > one-size-fits-all mindset from a top-down and

> illegal

> > government medical quango, we are not being

> treated as

> > individuals but as members of a group. I am then,

> not

> > in favor of making this preop a no-brainer for the

> > overpaid surgeons. Let fall on the shoulders of

> these

> > overpaid and overworshipped baryatric technicians

> the

> > responsibility of making sure that those select

> > patients with psych histories and probable need of

> a

> > proper psych interview work-up be singled out.

> That

> > many baryatric surgeons, and surgeons generally,

> are

> > loath to follow up on their patients is not news.

> Many

> > have a lousy after-the-operation attitude.

> >

> > In short, the NIH guidelines relating to

> weight-loss

> > surgery are wrong, discriminatory, and a waste of

> > patient time and money. Baryatric surgeons falling

> > victim to these biased and prejudicial views need

> to

> > be told they are following discriminatory

> practices.

>

=== message truncated ===

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Dear ,

Good question. I am going to tell Emma to

stuff it by email and why. This means that I will have

to shoot myself in the foot somewhat. She may sound

the alarm on me to every baryatric surgeon in Oregon:

" Fatso with cajones. " To me, this situation is not too

different from what I run into surfing the Internet

and trying to buy something. About half the sites are

just not user friendly, and if they really irritate

me, I email the company and tell them about it. Here

is one thing that these sites could do to make their

sites better. They could place a comment window when

the acknowledge your order or your change of heart.

Some day maybe they will improve the site. Having all

these fat people wasting time, and I am one of them,

seeing shrinks and taking these bizarre tests and

thinking that Emma for all of her brains is

going to be able to predict the future with respect to

her patients is a bit much to take.

As far as discrimination against fatties goes, I am

all for it, but if you do it do not expect me to call

it something else or expect me to give you my

business. Emma obviously has a God complex. She really

is into this psych crap just like Rutledge is into it.

That's interesting, , about the transplant

patients. In order to get a transplant you have to

take 'a psychosocial test'. Does this mean that I

won't get my liver transplant because I doodle jets

shooting other jets or frustrate those health care

workers who refuse to let me drive home after a

proctosigmoidoscopy because they believe that I must

be drunk, thanks to the Versed [sic?]? You mean I am

going to have to quit torturing the neighbor's cat or

no transplant?

The underlying issue is one of tyranny produced by

ignorance of the societal basics. As I earlier pointed

out, Uncle Sam has no constitutional role to play in

health care. Any guidelines he or his minions put out

are illegal and unconstitutional. No citizen is

obliged to follow an unconstitutional act, order,

regulation, or rule, according to the 9th and 10th

Amendments.

lcp

I have, , a few other more complex responses up my

sleeves as well.

--- Montgomery marym@...> wrote:

> Dear kind lcp,

> Oh come on, don't be shy. Tell us what you *really*

> think. LOL

>

> As long as there are malpractice attorneys willing

> to sue any doctor for any

> problem a patient has, most WLS surgeons will thing

> long and hard about

> ignoring the NIH guidelines and taking on patients

> without knowing their

> risk for non compliance.

>

> I agree with much of what you have said regarding

> the lack of necessity for

> much of the psych eval pre op for WLS. However it

> is also true that the way

> society treats most MO folk is not conducive to good

> mental health.

>

> FYI most transplant patients are required to have a

> thorough psychosocial

> evaluation. I have seen folks turned down for the

> transplant list for mental

> health reasons. Heart breaking at times.

>

> Since you see the bariatric acceptance of the NIH

> guidelines as wrong. How

> would you propose to so inform the bariatric surgery

> community and change

> their behavior?

>

> in Seattle

> DS 1/5/01 295# BMI 47.6

> 4/5/01 240# BMI 38

> Dr Welker - OHSU

>

> ----- Original Message -----

>

>

> > Sorry, gang, if anyone thought that I was speaking

> for

> > all fatties. What I was really interested in was

> > speaking to all BPD/DS fatties and doing a little

> > consciousness-raising. I am not a puff ball. I

> believe

> > in freedom of preach! I want fat people to get a

> fair

> > shake from the medical community. I want us to be

> > treated like individuals, not as members of the

> fat

> > group. This is what discrimination and prejudice

> are

> > all about. Certainly the responses my words

> provoked

> > were individualistic, even if some over-reacted or

> > simply did not bother to assimilate what was

> before

> > them.

> >

> > 's response was most thoughtful. Still, you

> canna

> > have your cake and eat it too, dearie. Either fat

> > people are being singled out for more than their

> share

> > of stupid psych evaluations, which include the

> MMPI,

> > or they are not. I think they are, and this is

> what B.

> > was complaining about.

> >

> > What the baryatric community should be doing is

> making

> > sure that every chronically and morbidly obese

> patient

> > has a good relationship with his personal

> physician or

> > other health care worker. Why? In order to deal

> with

> > any post-op psychological needs of the patient

> > relating to preop psychiatric problems or post-op

> > weight loss-related depression, etc. Indeed, most

> > personal physicians can handle the psychotropic

> > medications of most patients, and most of us don't

> and

> > won't need a specialist shrink. Indeed, I am in

> favor

> > of most people having a psychologist or

> psychologist

> > interview them because it is a potential learning

> > opportunity. I am all for learning about

> ourselves,

> > but I resent going just because I'm fat and some

> > skinny jerk at the NIH thinks that fat people are

> > nuts. The MMPI is definitely where I think it's

> not

> > at.

> >

> > My point is that the psych evaluations in the

> > baryatric community are not being done to all lung

> > cancer treatment patients prior to chemotherapy or

> > radiation or surgery or to all the cirrhosis

> patients

> > prior to having a liver transplant or treatment or

> to

> > all AIDS patients. This is in spite of the fact

> that

> > all three groups contain numbers of patients with

> > serious and severe mental disorders, many of which

> get

> > ignored and are untreated. Still, only the fatties

> > have to get psyched out. This is hardly guantum

> > mechanics.

> >

> > I have a neighbor, for example, that has been

> treated

> > for lung cancer, which is in permanent remission.

> He

> > continues to smoke and suffer from a plethora of

> > smoking related psychiatric problems, most of

> which

> > are undiagnosed. [There is, I believe, an

> end-stage

> > smoking syndrome that afflicts many long-time

> smokers

> > characterized by depression, procrastination, and

> > withdrawal.]

> >

> > Fat people are being singled out for stupid psych

> > work-ups with psych tests in them because a few of

> our

> > number have preoperative psychological problems of

> a

> > severe kind related to their obesity and cannot be

> > counted on to observe the dietary necessities

> invited

> > by the baryatric surgery.

> >

> > This still is not a good reason for all of us to

> have

> > these psych work-ups even if our beloved NIH says

> > otherwise. The NIH is a political insitution and

> > objectivity is often lacking in its

> pronouncements, as

> > its views on AIDS, for example, has shown. The

> Federal

> > Government has no constitutional role to play in

> > health care, frankly, unless you wish to believe

> that

> > health care falls under the " commerce clause " in

> the

> > Constitution and your ises are like the previous

> > president's did.

> >

> > That the NIH is at the center of this

> discriminatory

> > practice should not surprise anyone who is a

> student

> > of totalitarianism and discrimination, which I am.

> > Read Article I, Section 8, clauses 1-18. The

> powers

> > of the Congress are detailed therein, and there is

> > not, even by penumbra, a single mention of health

> care

> > there or elsewhere in that charter. I doubt that

> our

> > forefathers who passed the Constitution would

> approve

> > how it is being ignored by the Beltway and a

> > dumbed-down people.

> >

> > What's wrong with this business is that, thanks to

> a

> > one-size-fits-all mindset from a top-down and

> illegal

> > government medical quango, we are not being

> treated as

> > individuals but as members of a group. I am then,

> not

> > in favor of making this preop a no-brainer for the

> > overpaid surgeons. Let fall on the shoulders of

> these

> > overpaid and overworshipped baryatric technicians

> the

> > responsibility of making sure that those select

> > patients with psych histories and probable need of

> a

> > proper psych interview work-up be singled out.

> That

> > many baryatric surgeons, and surgeons generally,

> are

> > loath to follow up on their patients is not news.

> Many

> > have a lousy after-the-operation attitude.

> >

> > In short, the NIH guidelines relating to

> weight-loss

> > surgery are wrong, discriminatory, and a waste of

> > patient time and money. Baryatric surgeons falling

> > victim to these biased and prejudicial views need

> to

> > be told they are following discriminatory

> practices.

>

=== message truncated ===

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Methinks, , you don't know how to spell

'methinks'. It's one word. You got 'troll' right,

which surprised me. How did you know?

With an Armenian name like Keshishian the poor guy has

to have deep insecurities which result in good

followups. If he had a name like, say, , I

hazard, you would not get such good followup care.

Kudos to Doc Keshishian.

Emmanuel Troll, Jr.

--- H hillsmith2000@...> wrote:

> --- Pflanz Leonard thepflanz@...> wrote:

> > That many baryatric surgeons, and surgeons

> generally, are

> > loath to follow up on their patients is not news.

> Many

> > have a lousy after-the-operation attitude.

>

> On the contrary, my surgeon has amazing follow up

> and is unlike any

> other doctor I have ever been treated by. I think

> you would find this

> to be true for most of the DS surgeons who tend to

> end up on pedestals

> because they really are a different breed of doctor.

>

> > You sound like a bunch of whimpering wimps so far,

> so

> > I am not sanguine that any consciousness raising

> is

> > possible in this group.

>

> You would probably find it easier to converse with a

> group of people if

> you were less offensive. I happen to agree that the

> psych evaluation is

> probably overkill but I have a really hard time

> reading what you have

> to say because you say it in such a condescending

> manner.

>

> Me thinks you must be a troll. You certainly write

> and act like one.

>

> =====

> H

> Dr. Keshishian 11-21-00

>

> __________________________________________________

>

[Guest guest]

Methinks, , you don't know how to spell

'methinks'. It's one word. You got 'troll' right,

which surprised me. How did you know?

With an Armenian name like Keshishian the poor guy has

to have deep insecurities which result in good

followups. If he had a name like, say, , I

hazard, you would not get such good followup care.

Kudos to Doc Keshishian.

Emmanuel Troll, Jr.

--- H hillsmith2000@...> wrote:

> --- Pflanz Leonard thepflanz@...> wrote:

> > That many baryatric surgeons, and surgeons

> generally, are

> > loath to follow up on their patients is not news.

> Many

> > have a lousy after-the-operation attitude.

>

> On the contrary, my surgeon has amazing follow up

> and is unlike any

> other doctor I have ever been treated by. I think

> you would find this

> to be true for most of the DS surgeons who tend to

> end up on pedestals

> because they really are a different breed of doctor.

>

> > You sound like a bunch of whimpering wimps so far,

> so

> > I am not sanguine that any consciousness raising

> is

> > possible in this group.

>

> You would probably find it easier to converse with a

> group of people if

> you were less offensive. I happen to agree that the

> psych evaluation is

> probably overkill but I have a really hard time

> reading what you have

> to say because you say it in such a condescending

> manner.

>

> Me thinks you must be a troll. You certainly write

> and act like one.

>

> =====

> H

> Dr. Keshishian 11-21-00

>

> __________________________________________________

>

[Guest guest]

Methinks, , you don't know how to spell

'methinks'. It's one word. You got 'troll' right,

which surprised me. How did you know?

With an Armenian name like Keshishian the poor guy has

to have deep insecurities which result in good

followups. If he had a name like, say, , I

hazard, you would not get such good followup care.

Kudos to Doc Keshishian.

Emmanuel Troll, Jr.

--- H hillsmith2000@...> wrote:

> --- Pflanz Leonard thepflanz@...> wrote:

> > That many baryatric surgeons, and surgeons

> generally, are

> > loath to follow up on their patients is not news.

> Many

> > have a lousy after-the-operation attitude.

>

> On the contrary, my surgeon has amazing follow up

> and is unlike any

> other doctor I have ever been treated by. I think

> you would find this

> to be true for most of the DS surgeons who tend to

> end up on pedestals

> because they really are a different breed of doctor.

>

> > You sound like a bunch of whimpering wimps so far,

> so

> > I am not sanguine that any consciousness raising

> is

> > possible in this group.

>

> You would probably find it easier to converse with a

> group of people if

> you were less offensive. I happen to agree that the

> psych evaluation is

> probably overkill but I have a really hard time

> reading what you have

> to say because you say it in such a condescending

> manner.

>

> Me thinks you must be a troll. You certainly write

> and act like one.

>

> =====

> H

> Dr. Keshishian 11-21-00

>

> __________________________________________________

>