Re: OT: Enzy: Update to Complaint /patents

[Guest guest]

....> All of this indicates to me that Dr. Houston is the true

inventor of

> SerenAid and is the rightful one to have his name on any patent for

> it. And that Rimland and Pangborn had a different idea for which

> they can claim ownership of, but this is NOT what is inside a

> capsule of SerenAid. It is rather insulting and belittling for

> someone to claiming they are " giving the parents a gift " by not

> going for a patent, when it was never theirs to give in the first

> place. Some gift! (of course, when there was true ownership of

> something, like the secretin patent with a high price tag, the

> parents being deserving of a gift ranked pretty low in priorities!).

Dr. Rimland's statement on May 4, 2002 that, " Although Jon and I

(especially Jon) were the inventors, we did not apply for a patent.

We each had several patents, but this invention was to be a gift to

our fellow parents. "

But then Dr. Rimland's ARI site, in some of the copious information

on Secretin, Dr. Rimland writes,

" A patent is very important to the parents of autistic children. With

a patent, drug companies will have an incentive to invest in research

because they will have the exclusive right to market the patented

product. If there is no patent (as is true for vitamin B6 and DMG),

no drug company will invest in research, because their competitors,

with no financial investment, will also be able to sell the product.

Among the parents who are extremely interested in secretin are Walter

Herlihy and his wife, LeGendre, of Massachusetts, who have two

autistic daughters. Both Walter and have PhDs in biochemistry,

and Walter is the Chief Executive Officer of the Repligen

Corporation, a biotechnology firm in Needham, Massachusetts. Several

weeks ago, Repligen purchased the patent rights for secretin as a

treatment for autism from and Beck, who have generously

assigned the bulk of the proceeds from the sale, and the subsequent

royalties, to the Autism Research Institute [Dr. Rimland is the

director of the Autism Research Institute]. The Institute will use

these much needed funds to continue the progress that is being made

toward finding causes and better treatments for autism. Dr. Herlihy

pledges to move full speed ahead on bringing high quality synthetic

human secretin to the families seeking it, as quickly as possible.

That is welcome news indeed. " [Dr. Rimland's name was also on the

patent.]

http://www.autism.com/ari/secretin2.html

About the sale: " Beck and Bernard Rimland, a maverick autism

advocate in San Diego, sold the secretin patent last year for a

reported $1 million in cash and stock to Repligen, a Needham, Mass.,

biotech company whose CEO, Walter Herlihy, has two autistic children.

(Beck donated her $750,000 in stock to Rimland's institute). "

http://archive.salon.com/health/log/1999/12/09/secretin/

From another article: " In addition, while no one is questioning their

dedication to finding a cure, both Beck and Rimland have a vested

interest in secretin. The two jointly filed a patent for the use of

secretin in autism, and when readers click secretin on the Web site

of Rimland's institute, they get an order form for Beck's

book, " Unlocking the Secrets of

Secretin. " http://archive.salon.com/health/feature/1999/04/13/internet_

cures/

[Guest guest]

> ...> All of this indicates to me that Dr. Houston is the true

> inventor of

> > SerenAid and is the rightful one to have his name on any patent for

> > it. And that Rimland and Pangborn had a different idea for which

> > they can claim ownership of, but this is NOT what is inside a

> > capsule of SerenAid. It is rather insulting and belittling for

> > someone to claiming they are " giving the parents a gift " by not

> > going for a patent, when it was never theirs to give in the first

> > place. Some gift! (of course, when there was true ownership of

> > something, like the secretin patent with a high price tag, the

> > parents being deserving of a gift ranked pretty low in priorities!).

>

>

> Dr. Rimland's statement on May 4, 2002 that, " Although Jon and I

> (especially Jon) were the inventors, we did not apply for a patent.

> We each had several patents, but this invention was to be a gift to

> our fellow parents. "

>

>

> But then Dr. Rimland's ARI site, in some of the copious information

> on Secretin, Dr. Rimland writes,

> " A patent is very important to the parents of autistic children. With

> a patent, drug companies will have an incentive to invest in research

> because they will have the exclusive right to market the patented

> product. If there is no patent (as is true for vitamin B6 and DMG),

> no drug company will invest in research, because their competitors,

> with no financial investment, will also be able to sell the product.

> Among the parents who are extremely interested in secretin are Walter

> Herlihy and his wife, LeGendre, of Massachusetts, who have two

> autistic daughters. Both Walter and have PhDs in biochemistry,

> and Walter is the Chief Executive Officer of the Repligen

> Corporation, a biotechnology firm in Needham, Massachusetts. Several

> weeks ago, Repligen purchased the patent rights for secretin as a

> treatment for autism from and Beck, who have generously

> assigned the bulk of the proceeds from the sale, and the subsequent

> royalties, to the Autism Research Institute [Dr. Rimland is the

> director of the Autism Research Institute]. The Institute will use

> these much needed funds to continue the progress that is being made

> toward finding causes and better treatments for autism. Dr. Herlihy

> pledges to move full speed ahead on bringing high quality synthetic

> human secretin to the families seeking it, as quickly as possible.

> That is welcome news indeed. " [Dr. Rimland's name was also on the

> patent.]

> http://www.autism.com/ari/secretin2.html

>

>

> About the sale: " Beck and Bernard Rimland, a maverick autism

> advocate in San Diego, sold the secretin patent last year for a

> reported $1 million in cash and stock to Repligen, a Needham, Mass.,

> biotech company whose CEO, Walter Herlihy, has two autistic children.

> (Beck donated her $750,000 in stock to Rimland's institute). "

> http://archive.salon.com/health/log/1999/12/09/secretin/

>

> From another article: " In addition, while no one is questioning their

> dedication to finding a cure, both Beck and Rimland have a vested

> interest in secretin. The two jointly filed a patent for the use of

> secretin in autism, and when readers click secretin on the Web site

> of Rimland's institute, they get an order form for Beck's

> book, " Unlocking the Secrets of

> Secretin. " http://archive.salon.com/health/feature/1999/04/13/internet_

> cures/

>

> --------------------------------- REPLY--COMMENTS...from grandma peg...Hi

...Well, I read 's postings of the letters between Rimland and Klaire

labs and what appears to be a shake-up of that lab, perhaps they still don't

know who is at the helm..?? But, it does seem they tried to screw the idea fee

out of the ARI as their dust was settling. It also appears that the ARI, not

Rimland personally, was to benefit from the funds. As has been noted before,

enzymes have been in use for a long time but as said, the new application

of them to autism, hasn't. I don't know if Feingold's did studies on them or not

but you might find info regarding them in relation to neuro-disorders in

alternative medicines. For centuries, it was believed that the gut-brain

connection was a viable concept and that the bowel had to be kept healthy if the

rest of the body was to thrive but as a specific use for autism...I doubt it, as

no one thought autism was anything other than a mental illness or mental defect,

later as a physiological brain disorder. For true, classic autism, the ideas

'we' have been informed of regarding 'our' kids, do not fit. What we have is a

neuro-disorder, quite possibly a caused one after birth, a physical-biological

injury presentating as autistic symptoms. All the info gathered so far and the

statistical rise of this disorder, suggest that it isn't Kanner's classic

autism. Those, in regard to gut problems, may have always been different also. I

say may have becase it seems upon re-exams of many autistics, there are gut

problems and this type, too, may benefit from gfcf diet..hence, enzymes, also.

As said, a 'new application' of an old product, which is a different type

of patent than 'inventor' patent. But, that use IS something new in these

disorders, so a new idea should receive credit of some kind. As for this being

an exclusive field, I don't think it should be either as the idea of what the

enzymes are 'for'is Still to aid and facilitate digestion, no matter what

illness the taker has. But patent laws may 'think' differently. Just as I think

it's also right that D.Houston did invent the formula for Sereaid and it should

be his...unfortunatly, laws regarding ideas used in the service of a company are

probably considered property of that company. However, what we have with Houston

enzymes is probably not the same exact formula, even though it May be similar.

If the use of the enzymes was not patentened, then there's no reason why the

product can't be sold as 'for such and such...to aid in the complete breakdown

of opiates as described in the works of Karl Reischeld..(sp?) as regards bowel

disorders affecting the mind and behviors of autism'. The law examines every

detail of formulas and decides what percent has to be different from another

company's formula to be an independant formula, not me. If it were up to me, I'd

say that ideas could not be patented, but if they are, that true- original -

inventers be allowed to base formula's on their own ideas whether they were in

the employ of someone else or not, when the basic idea was actualized...but I'm

not the law. Ideally, all the people involved in products for the improvement of

this present day disorder some call autism should have not sought propritary

rights over either ideas or applications or formulas, but you see what a mess

that brought about with Beck's idea being claimed by the Dr. at the

college she took her son to for treatments. So, an alternative is for all of the

person's involved in the invention of formulas for the new application in autism

should be working together which would be in the interest of all these kids. Not

wasting time and money in squabbles. But, I'm not the law...and it looks as if

some aspects of this will have to be settled by the courts but I would sincerely

pray that it would be After all parties had first made complimentary and

compliant aggreements and that the court would only be used to affirm that

agreement... we read what happened to the verbal agreement between Rimland and

Klaire labs. Lastly, anyone who thinks anyone is providing these products soley

on a humanitarian basis has got to have their head in the sand. If money isn't

made, there is no more product. And to expect the fruit of their labors to be

paid for, is a reasonable expectation of Any working person. If some of the

profits are diverted to a humanitaian project, so much the better for all of

us... just like TV, nothing is free, it takes time and money to keep those

organizations going. About other things, tempers flew out of control, too fast,

and small things were magnified by harping until they were inflamatory, instead

of seeking solution by reasonable means. We should ernestly strive to not snipe

at any of the parties, anymore, that only carries the degrading process on. It's

a shame this happened to all of them but where business is involved, it does

happen. They are all good people and I think, all honorable. I pray that God

will use a bad situation and turn it to good. And that men's laws may be most

fairly interpreted and applied by any court involved. Grandma Peg

[Guest guest]

Hi Grandma Peg! Glad you are still out there!

> > --------------------------------- REPLY--COMMENTS...from

grandma peg...Hi ...Well, I read 's postings of the letters

between Rimland and Klaire labs and what appears to be a shake-up of

that lab, perhaps they still don't know who is at the helm..?? But,

it does seem they tried to screw the idea fee out of the ARI as their

dust was settling.

From what I gather out of the attachments, it was who was

trying to be ethical and upfront with the situation, that is my

opinion from what I read. It is my understanding she is no longer

affiliated with Klaire Labs. I don't know how the whole issue was

resolved.

>It also appears that the ARI, not Rimland personally, was to benefit

from the funds.

Yes, the statements state that the funds went ARI, Dr. Rimland's

organization.

>As has been noted before, enzymes have been in use for a long time

but as said, the new application of them to autism, hasn't.

But, I'm not the law...and it looks as if some aspects of this will

have to be settled by the courts but I would sincerely pray that it

would be After all parties had first made complimentary and compliant

aggreements and that the court would only be used to affirm that

agreement...

>...we read what happened to the verbal agreement between Rimland and

Klaire labs. Lastly, anyone who thinks anyone is providing these

products soley on a humanitarian basis has got to have their head in

the sand. If money isn't made, there is no more product. And to

expect the fruit of their labors to be paid for, is a reasonable

expectation of Any working person.

I definitely agree that people should be appropriately paid for their

work.

>If some of the profits are diverted to a humanitaian project, so

much the better for all of us... just like TV, nothing is free, it

takes time and money to keep those organizations going.

Agreed.

> About other things, tempers flew out of control, too fast, and

small things were magnified by harping until they were inflamatory,

instead of seeking solution by reasonable means. We should ernestly

strive to not snipe at any of the parties, anymore, that only carries

the degrading process on.

Well said. Think how much valuable time has been wasted on this if

instead of posting the original libel without contacting the people

being defamed, Drs. Pangborn and Rimland had just contacted Devin and

the parents here and asked about the supposed dangers of No-Fenol and

if they had contacted and Devin (and me) to clarify that there

was no affiliation and that we do not fabricate stories here on this

board. Then the misinformation by Dr. Pangborn on what No-Fenol did

has caused parents to be frightened away from it. I hope these kinds

of tactics do not continue because it keeps kids from getting

better.

>It's a shame this happened to all of them but where business is

involved, it does happen. They are all good people and I think, all

honorable.

" Good " and " honorable " is subjective, but when I look at the methods

used to supposedly help parents, I have questions about some things.

I still don't see how posting warnings about a product that is

helping kids is good and honorable when the part about it helping so

many kids is being left out. I know I've made a few mistakes on this

board, but I believe I've corrected myself and apologized when

appropriate. I read all the stories about the kids being helped by

these products, and the internet libel did nothing to help children,

in fact, we have read postings from parents scared by the warnings

and misinformation. I am still confused by the intent of such

warnings when the person who invented the unique product was not

contacted, the moderators were not contacted and the parents were not

contacted. Then at the end of Dr. Pangborn's warnings about this

group, he urges the reader: " We urge anyone who genuinely wants to

help children to purchase the DAN! report: Biomedical Assessment

Options for Children with Autism and Related Problems, read it,

figure out which protions apply to the individual, and try it. It

might not be as much 'fun' as some people find Internet invective,

but it is much more useful. " So - what and I and other parents

do here for no money is less useful than buying his book? So- people

that do not buy his book do not " genuinely " want to help children???

I've really just about had it up to here with people whose boat has

been rocked by something ELSE helping kids...and they are trying to

steer parents away from it. This is FUN? I'm having FUN now? I was

hoping the autism industry would embrace the fact that there was yet

another option helping a subgroup of kids. Guess what, Peptizyde

helped MORE than SerenAid and No-Fenol helped some kids more than

Peptizyde. So - Devin kept improving on stuff, isn't that a GOOD

thing Dr. Pangborn??? (Sorry, G. Pat, you got me going, but not at

you!) Your DAN book is much more " useful " , Dr. Pangborn? Guess

what, the thing that helped my kid the most was not in your DAN book,

so I'm glad I didn't spend the $25 on it. I bought No-Fenol with

that money, by the way (worked great). Sorry again, Grandma Pat, I'm

glad you are here to keep me calm, LOL.

>I pray that God will use a bad situation and turn it to good. And

that men's laws may be most fairly interpreted and applied by any

court involved. Grandma Peg

I hope you are right. Thanks for your good thoughts.

[Guest guest]

>

> > > --------------------------------- REPLY--COMMENTS...from

> grandma peg...Hi ...Well, I read 's postings of the letters

> between Rimland and Klaire labs and what appears to be a shake-up of

> that lab, perhaps they still don't know who is at the helm..?? But,

> it does seem they tried to screw the idea fee out of the ARI as their

> dust was settling.

>

>

> From what I gather out of the attachments, it was who was

> trying to be ethical and upfront with the situation, that is my

> opinion from what I read. It is my understanding she is no longer

> affiliated with Klaire Labs. I don't know how the whole issue was

> resolved.

>

>

> >It also appears that the ARI, not Rimland personally, was to benefit

> from the funds.

>

>

> Yes, the statements state that the funds went ARI, Dr. Rimland's

> organization.

>

>

> >As has been noted before, enzymes have been in use for a long time

> but as said, the new application of them to autism, hasn't.

> But, I'm not the law...and it looks as if some aspects of this will

> have to be settled by the courts but I would sincerely pray that it

> would be After all parties had first made complimentary and compliant

> aggreements and that the court would only be used to affirm that

> agreement...

> >...we read what happened to the verbal agreement between Rimland and

> Klaire labs. Lastly, anyone who thinks anyone is providing these

> products soley on a humanitarian basis has got to have their head in

> the sand. If money isn't made, there is no more product. And to

> expect the fruit of their labors to be paid for, is a reasonable

> expectation of Any working person.

>

>

> I definitely agree that people should be appropriately paid for their

> work.

>

>

> >If some of the profits are diverted to a humanitaian project, so

> much the better for all of us... just like TV, nothing is free, it

> takes time and money to keep those organizations going.

>

>

> Agreed.

>

>

> > About other things, tempers flew out of control, too fast, and

> small things were magnified by harping until they were inflamatory,

> instead of seeking solution by reasonable means. We should ernestly

> strive to not snipe at any of the parties, anymore, that only carries

> the degrading process on.

>

>

> Well said. Think how much valuable time has been wasted on this if

> instead of posting the original libel without contacting the people

> being defamed, Drs. Pangborn and Rimland had just contacted Devin and

> the parents here and asked about the supposed dangers of No-Fenol and

> if they had contacted and Devin (and me) to clarify that there

> was no affiliation and that we do not fabricate stories here on this

> board. Then the misinformation by Dr. Pangborn on what No-Fenol did

> has caused parents to be frightened away from it. I hope these kinds

> of tactics do not continue because it keeps kids from getting

> better.

>

>

> >It's a shame this happened to all of them but where business is

> involved, it does happen. They are all good people and I think, all

> honorable.

>

>

> " Good " and " honorable " is subjective, but when I look at the methods

> used to supposedly help parents, I have questions about some things.

> I still don't see how posting warnings about a product that is

> helping kids is good and honorable when the part about it helping so

> many kids is being left out. I know I've made a few mistakes on this

> board, but I believe I've corrected myself and apologized when

> appropriate. I read all the stories about the kids being helped by

> these products, and the internet libel did nothing to help children,

> in fact, we have read postings from parents scared by the warnings

> and misinformation. I am still confused by the intent of such

> warnings when the person who invented the unique product was not

> contacted, the moderators were not contacted and the parents were not

> contacted. Then at the end of Dr. Pangborn's warnings about this

> group, he urges the reader: " We urge anyone who genuinely wants to

> help children to purchase the DAN! report: Biomedical Assessment

> Options for Children with Autism and Related Problems, read it,

> figure out which protions apply to the individual, and try it. It

> might not be as much 'fun' as some people find Internet invective,

> but it is much more useful. " So - what and I and other parents

> do here for no money is less useful than buying his book? So- people

> that do not buy his book do not " genuinely " want to help children???

> I've really just about had it up to here with people whose boat has

> been rocked by something ELSE helping kids...and they are trying to

> steer parents away from it. This is FUN? I'm having FUN now? I was

> hoping the autism industry would embrace the fact that there was yet

> another option helping a subgroup of kids. Guess what, Peptizyde

> helped MORE than SerenAid and No-Fenol helped some kids more than

> Peptizyde. So - Devin kept improving on stuff, isn't that a GOOD

> thing Dr. Pangborn??? (Sorry, G. Pat, you got me going, but not at

> you!) Your DAN book is much more " useful " , Dr. Pangborn? Guess

> what, the thing that helped my kid the most was not in your DAN book,

> so I'm glad I didn't spend the $25 on it. I bought No-Fenol with

> that money, by the way (worked great). Sorry again, Grandma Pat, I'm

> glad you are here to keep me calm, LOL.

>

>

> >I pray that God will use a bad situation and turn it to good. And

> that men's laws may be most fairly interpreted and applied by any

> court involved. Grandma Peg

>

>

> I hope you are right. Thanks for your good thoughts.

> --------------------------------- Hi again....I'm inclined to say 'hello,

dear' but that would be too Mrs. Doubtfire-ish, I'm not that 'nice'. Well,

honorable and good people are still - just people, and good people do bad

things, for the wrong reasons, etc. but I do believe that all parties intend to

be doing what 'seems right' to them, in their own eyes. I've always said that

this field of therapies for autism is big enough for all of them. I just didn't

get the big blow up that ensued on the gfcf board tho' I thought the topic had

become centered on Houston's products to a major degree but since no one seemed

to openly object, I guessed it was another one of those tides that wash acrost

so many message boards..and was going to be okey as a diversity of opinions was

still shared. It could be forseen tho, that anything that upset the major policy

of the gfcf diet was going to stir up more than just a ripple, however, it took

me by surprise when the blow up actually occurred. I still think none of that

whole thing was necessary, due to all the circumstances underlying everyone's

methods being so much alike...as in having advertisers or advancers, hired for

wages or not. That's the way products are sold and there's no need to hide that

fact. How it's done seems to be a sore point. I still don't understand what the

stink was over another enzyme coming into the autism therapy pool myself as

SerenAid was kind of left behind and Kirkman's came out with their own...shortly

after Houston's. I never hear anyone mention SerenAid any more. Well, monopolies

aren't going to be good for the autism group if good products are left out. But,

we Do Not Need any more enemies, the AMA, FDA, NIH and neuro-immune disorders

are enough. Yes, they should have been working together, not sniping or getting

other scientists all worked up on just an opinion. There's always more to any

issue in business than will ever be made public. And the " bigger " the person is,

the better inclined they will be to work together with others in their field. It

could be that only full public disclosures will stop this. It could be that only

greasing the wheels will stop it, which shouldn't be a mandatory prerequisite to

be included in a 'group'. But let's be real, before the DAN group was formed, we

had almost NOTHING...EXCEPT the gfcf diet...and possibly, supplements too.

Certainly nothing in the medical field. That group's protocol is one reason we

have enzymes at all, seeing as how one f the founders ordered the first ones.

Well, as said, I think a person should be entitled to use their own formula's

but I think the law sees it differently. In the meantime, we must do everything

we can to keep functioning smoothly to let those in disarray re-assemble

theirselves... we Have to leave room for apologies to happen, we Have to leave

room for the outstretched hand, if we want to all function as a whole unit even

one of slight variations in protocol. 'WE'need In, not on the outside looking

in. Gentle does it, kid, genteelity does it. The main criticizers of ALL of us,

the general medical population, alreay holds us in disregard, we don't need to

make it any worse by playing this game plan. Remember, to keep an argument

going, there has to be at least 2 people, and when one stops and shifts their

way to a independent balanced objectivity...(ever been to an AA or Al-Anon..??

Recall co-dependency..) the other person also has to change their way of going

about 'things' to relate. So it does now seem as if one side is giving the other

the opportunities to help mend the rifts, even if it was by techical default in

some instances. Let's do try to be boosters, working with another team, even if

we don't want to become part of it...Say Yes,now..that's what grandma says. Love

you all, spread it around. Grandma peg

[Guest guest]

(See below.)

> > --------------------------------- Hi again....I'm inclined

to say 'hello, dear' but that would be too Mrs. Doubtfire-ish, I'm

not that 'nice'.

You are funny!!

>>Well, honorable and good people are still - just people, and good

people do bad things, for the wrong reasons, etc. but I do believe

that all parties intend to be doing what 'seems right' to them, in

their own eyes. I've always said that this field of therapies for

autism is big enough for all of them. I just didn't get the big blow

up that ensued on the gfcf board tho' I thought the topic had become

centered on Houston's products to a major degree but since no one

seemed to openly object, I guessed it was another one of those tides

that wash acrost so many message boards..and was going to be okey as

a diversity of opinions was still shared. It could be forseen tho,

that anything that upset the major policy of the gfcf diet was going

to stir up more than just a ripple, however, it took me by surprise

when the blow up actually occurred.

Me, too! Very ugly! That's how we got here. Outcasts!

>>I still think none of that whole thing was necessary, due to all

the circumstances underlying everyone's methods being so much

alike...as in having advertisers or advancers, hired for wages or

not. That's the way products are sold and there's no need to hide

that fact. How it's done seems to be a sore point. I still don't

understand what the stink was over another enzyme coming into the

autism therapy pool myself as SerenAid was kind of left behind and

Kirkman's came out with their own...shortly after Houston's. I never

hear anyone mention SerenAid any more.

This is a guess on my part, not being a business minded person, I

could be very wrong. But, maybe when it was just SerenAid and the

similar stuff made afterward by Kirkman's, there wasn't a need to be

upset. Dr. Pangborn and Dr. Rimland were on the enzyme team at

Kirkman's. But then, the blow-up at Klaire happened and Devin left.

He then formulated something different and better for many kids:

Peptizyde (my kid included - SerenAid helped some here and there,

Peptizyde helped dramatically and consistently). Now all of a sudden

this mom comes on the gfcfdiet site and asks, " Has anyone else tried

the new Houston enzymes? " and that they are having great results.

So this other mom replies that " Yes! " They are also having great

results with no reactions and it's only been two weeks. Can you

guess who those first two moms on the boards were?! Serendipity....

So the parents reading this get very excited, the moderators of the

two diet boards get, well, things don't go so well there. And

suddenly, there may be reason for the other enzyme people to pay

attention. Now this Houston guy could be a " problem " (?), at least

that is what I wonder if some people were thinking, not saying that

IS what they were thinking. Before HNI, you had stuff that kind of

helped kids - it appeared to be more hit and miss, but now this

Peptizyde was resulting in some phenomenal results in a larger

percent of kids. And the stink was that he did it with his own

company, no strings attached. It was my understanding that Devin

only left Klaire because of that mess you read about in the memos

from 's lawyer. So, he left because of the ethics situation,

that is my understanding.

>>Well, monopolies aren't going to be good for the autism group if

good products are left out.

Agreed, so I hope that Devin will be able to continue to make more

products. He seems to keep improving, then the others seem to

follow, in my opinion if you look at the timeline. I really don't

want to give up No-Fenol, either.

>>But, we Do Not Need any more enemies, the AMA, FDA, NIH and neuro-

immune disorders are enough. Yes, they should have been working

together, not sniping or getting other scientists all worked up on

just an opinion. There's always more to any issue in business than

will ever be made public. And the " bigger " the person is, the better

inclined they will be to work together with others in their field. It

could be that only full public disclosures will stop this. It could

be that only greasing the wheels will stop it, which shouldn't be a

mandatory prerequisite to be included in a 'group'. But let's be

real, before the DAN group was formed, we had almost NOTHING...EXCEPT

the gfcf diet...and possibly, supplements too. Certainly nothing in

the medical field. That group's protocol is one reason we have

enzymes at all, seeing as how one f the founders ordered the first

ones.

I heard Devin speak to my local parents' group the day his Peptizyde

and Zyme Prime were made available. I and the others heard him give

credit to Dr. Pangborn and Dr. Rimland where credit was due. There

were about 30 or more of us there, so quite a few people witnessed

that Devin's attitude was not to take from anyone else, only to help

more kids. I did not hear any knocking of DAN or the doctors. No

one has wanted to take away from the accomplishments of others. (By

the way, that is how my son became the first to try the enzymes - it

was mere luck that the monthly meeting fell on the day Devin was able

to get the first batch of enzymes.)

>>Well, as said, I think a person should be entitled to use their

own formula's but I think the law sees it differently. In the

meantime, we must do everything we can to keep functioning smoothly

to let those in disarray re-assemble theirselves... we Have to leave

room for apologies to happen, we Have to leave room for the

outstretched hand, if we want to all function as a whole unit even

one of slight variations in protocol.

I should not speak for , but I believe she has tried the

outstretched hand on numerous occasions, but was rejected. I don't

know what more she could have done at that time, especially since she

was the one defamed.

>>'WE'need In, not on the outside looking in. Gentle does it, kid,

genteelity does it. The main criticizers of ALL of us, the general

medical population, alreay holds us in disregard, we don't need to

make it any worse by playing this game plan. Remember, to keep an

argument going, there has to be at least 2 people, and when one stops

and shifts their way to a independent balanced objectivity...(ever

been to an AA or Al-Anon..?? Recall co-dependency..) the other person

also has to change their way of going about 'things' to relate. So it

does now seem as if one side is giving the other the opportunities to

help mend the rifts, even if it was by techical default in some

instances. Let's do try to be boosters, working with another team,

even if we don't want to become part of it...Say Yes,now..that's what

grandma says. Love you all, spread it around. Grandma peg

You are good, Grandma! Maybe a big tray of chocolate chip cookies

and some milk over at your house?! See you there! If we have a

convention, you are in charge of hospitality.

[Guest guest]

> > > --------------------------------- Hi again....I'm inclined

> to say 'hello, dear' but that would be too Mrs. Doubtfire-ish, I'm

> not that 'nice'.

>

> You are funny!!

> (g.p. Aw, shucks..)

>

> >>Well, honorable and good people are still - just people, and good

> people do bad things, for the wrong reasons, etc. but I do believe

> that all parties intend to be doing what 'seems right' to them, in

> their own eyes. I've always said that this field of therapies for

> autism is big enough for all of them. I just didn't get the big blow

> up that ensued on the gfcf board tho' I thought the topic had become

> centered on Houston's products to a major degree but since no one

> seemed to openly object, I guessed it was another one of those tides

> that wash acrost so many message boards..and was going to be okey as

> a diversity of opinions was still shared. It could be forseen tho,

> that anything that upset the major policy of the gfcf diet was going

> to stir up more than just a ripple, however, it took me by surprise

> when the blow up actually occurred.

>

> Me, too! Very ugly! That's how we got here. Outcasts!

> (g.p. not 'outcasts', >>Idependents..right where I've always been in real

life,,,I must have a socializing problem..??) >

> >>I still think none of that whole thing was necessary, due to all

> the circumstances underlying everyone's methods being so much

> alike...as in having advertisers or advancers, hired for wages or

> not. That's the way products are sold and there's no need to hide

> that fact. How it's done seems to be a sore point. I still don't

> understand what the stink was over another enzyme coming into the

> autism therapy pool myself as SerenAid was kind of left behind and

> Kirkman's came out with their own...shortly after Houston's. I never

> hear anyone mention SerenAid any more. (g.p, should have said

'rarely'..hear..)

>

> This is a guess on my part, not being a business minded person, I

> could be very wrong. But, maybe when it was just SerenAid and the

> similar stuff made afterward by Kirkman's, there wasn't a need to be

> upset. Dr. Pangborn and Dr. Rimland were on the enzyme team at

> Kirkman's. But then, the blow-up at Klaire happened and Devin left.

> He then formulated something different and better for many kids:

> Peptizyde (my kid included - SerenAid helped some here and there,

> Peptizyde helped dramatically and consistently). Now all of a sudden

> this mom comes on the gfcfdiet site and asks, " Has anyone else tried

> the new Houston enzymes? " and that they are having great results.

> So this other mom replies that " Yes! " They are also having great

> results with no reactions and it's only been two weeks. Can you

> guess who those first two moms on the boards were?! Serendipity....

> So the parents reading this get very excited, the moderators of the

> two diet boards get, well, things don't go so well there. And

> suddenly, there may be reason for the other enzyme people to pay

> attention. Now this Houston guy could be a " problem " (?), at least

> that is what I wonder if some people were thinking, not saying that

> IS what they were thinking. Before HNI, you had stuff that kind of

> helped kids - it appeared to be more hit and miss, but now this

> Peptizyde was resulting in some phenomenal results in a larger

> percent of kids. And the stink was that he did it with his own

> company, no strings attached. It was my understanding that Devin

> only left Klaire because of that mess you read about in the memos

> from 's lawyer. So, he left because of the ethics situation,

> that is my understanding.

(g.p. I had no knowledge of why Devin left, just that he did and that Bill Shaw

said..'these things happen all the time', and went on about companies changing

hands, and the difficulty for employees, but nothing accusatory at anyone about

anything. He did mention, in his after talk of Q & A, that he thought there was

one other enzyme but he didn't know the name of it..to which I shouted

out..Peptizyde...and he looked at me and the parent on the mike said 'what'?, so

I stood up and yelled it 2 more times, Shaw just kind of looked at me with a

puzzled look..I think he made some kind of hand gesture towards me as if to

say..there's the name. What I meant about the gfcf diet board is that the diet

had been their reason for being in exsistence & so it was their main therapy

project. Any enzyme was a secondary consideration, a supplement, so I thought

that when the board became so saturated with enzyme talk of just one 'brand', I

was glad for Houstin's but then -that there could be trouble brewing...which is

what I thought had happened when they jumped on kjorn>. I didn't know that

kjorn and were the same person then either until she started posting

mainly as and kjorn seemed to 'disappear'..kjorn Was a bit over

enthusiastic and to this day, I don't agree with the point of substituting the

gfcf diet with enzymes, even tho' I've seen how well they work. In other words,

I just don't want to risk that at some point down the trail that the damage from

some gluten will show up, and That's just a personal opinion, not a 'slam'. IMO,

there's still a long road to go with proving that theory, which is what it is

yet. However, has an advantage on us by being married to scientist who is

expert in enzymes and their use so she may have more confidence from more

scientific proof to base her trust on than I do. )

>

> >>Well, monopolies aren't going to be good for the autism group if

> good products are left out.

>

> Agreed, so I hope that Devin will be able to continue to make more

> products. He seems to keep improving, then the others seem to

> follow, in my opinion if you look at the timeline. I really don't

> want to give up No-Fenol, either.

>(g.p. I concur)

>

> >>But, we Do Not Need any more enemies, the AMA, FDA, NIH and neuro-

> immune disorders are enough. Yes, they should have been working

> together, not sniping or getting other scientists all worked up on

> just an opinion. There's always more to any issue in business than

> will ever be made public. And the " bigger " the person is, the better

> inclined they will be to work together with others in their field. It

> could be that only full public disclosures will stop this. It could

> be that only greasing the wheels will stop it, which shouldn't be a

> mandatory prerequisite to be included in a 'group'. But let's be

> real, before the DAN group was formed, we had almost NOTHING...EXCEPT

> the gfcf diet...and possibly, supplements too. Certainly nothing in

> the medical field. That (g.p.DAN, i.e.)=group's protocol is one reason we have

> enzymes at all, seeing as how one of the founders ordered the first

> ones.(g.p.Rimland..possibly Pangborne with him, so the idea of this

application Seems to have been first fom them...but to say that's an exclusive

idea surely is Not accurate, as suggested previously, Naturopaths have been

using enzymes for decades for many diorders, as long as it was gut connected in

their beliefs.)

>

> I heard Devin speak to my local parents' group the day his Peptizyde

> and Zyme Prime were made available. I and the others heard him give

> credit to Dr. Pangborn and Dr. Rimland where credit was due. There

> were about 30 or more of us there, so quite a few people witnessed

> that Devin's attitude was not to take from anyone else, only to help

> more kids. I did not hear any knocking of DAN or the doctors. No

> one has wanted to take away from the accomplishments of others. (By

> the way, that is how my son became the first to try the enzymes - it

> was mere luck that the monthly meeting fell on the day Devin was able

> to get the first batch of enzymes.)

> (g.p. Devin made his presence known on the old Health Boards first, to us

posters, but think it was later I found out about his own enzymes and don't

recall where...but 'a' message board... as to the way Rimland worded it, I took

that to mean the formulas were open to the public too...so no patent rights

would be violated if Someone else came up with another or improred on the old.

The tie in with Devin being an employee of Klaire who first formulated S.aid,

complcated matters, personally and biz. wise)

>

> >>Well, as said, I think a person should be entitled to use their

> own formula's but I think the law sees it differently. In the

> meantime, we must do everything we can to keep functioning smoothly

> to let those in disarray re-assemble theirselves... we Have to leave

> room for apologies to happen, we Have to leave room for the

> outstretched hand, if we want to all function as a whole unit even

> one of slight variations in protocol.

>

> I should not speak for , but I believe she has tried the

> outstretched hand on numerous occasions, but was rejected. I don't

> know what more she could have done at that time, especially since she

> was the one defamed.

> (g.p. Well Here, I was actually referring to being open to let Rimland,

Pangborne, DAN, gfcf diet, whomever, have the feeling that They could extend

Their hand...and not get 'bit', feelings were high on both sides at the time, it

seems, so just a little different slant. Now see, that could have been seen as

side taking if I'd out-n-out said it that way in the first place... but if I'd

said a name, it might have been regarded as an afront by another...you know,

subjectively taken... but I agreed, from what I saw, was derided. The

questions remain tho', of did the zealousnss on the gfcf board cause or deserve

actions taken, not name calling, or a less public reprimand, and why, in Heavens

name , was Rimland brought in on it..? Yes, I know, because of the enzyme

connection and as a group, they assumed more than knew the background of the

person ..??)

>

> >>'WE'need In, not on the outside looking in. Gentle does it, kid,

> genteelity does it. The main criticizers of ALL of us, the general

> medical population, alreay holds us in disregard, we don't need to

> make it any worse by playing this game plan. Remember, to keep an

> argument going, there has to be at least 2 people, and when one stops

> and shifts their way to a independent balanced objectivity...(ever

> been to an AA or Al-Anon..?? Recall co-dependency..) the other person

> also has to change their way of going about 'things' to relate. So it

> does now seem as if one side is giving the other the opportunities to

> help mend the rifts, even if it was by techical default in some

> instances. Let's do try to be boosters, working with another team,

> even if we don't want to become part of it...Say Yes,now..that's what

> grandma says. Love you all, spread it around. Grandma peg

>

> You are good, Grandma! Maybe a big tray of chocolate chip cookies

> and some milk over at your house?! See you there! If we have a

> convention, you are in charge of hospitality.(g.p. careful,,I might do it..)

> (g.p. It's not hard to 'guess' that Rimland had probably already urged

Kirkman's to work on an enzyme since the one from Klaire labs seemed in jeopardy

when that company began changing hands. I didn't interpret the letter in the ex.

#..file.. to mean the info he-Rimland got from Ms. So and So was not a

satisfactory Performance report but that her information was Not complete and

she left the company before sending any completed info files she had, which she

had pormised to do. I don't particlualrily regard what '' has tried to do

as the 'right, or honorable' thing, IMO that if a company agreed to pay

royalties, they should be carried forward when the company changed ownership.

Yet, I can understand that they Now want to be known as their Own company but

yet while still bearing the Klaire name and then claiming that the verbal

contact for royalties was made only with , the original owner, to get out

of it, not because it was under the table kick backs. -Oh, remember that

Houston's also gave gratuities to gfcf out of sales from their board an I do

suppose that could be misconstrued in ways also, I thought it was 'nice'. I kind

of got the idea also, from the wording of the contract re; secretin, that

Rimlands share had also been sold but the Beck's gratuities were told publicly

for the benefit of 'claims'. As for his using it for building funds instead of

directly to a scientist for research'..well, like the Amer. Red Cross..and most

Christian org.'s that I am acquainted with, they say they need it for this n

that, whatever is the most heart rending appeal but they Can use it for

buildings, transportaion of goods or people, or evangalism, wherever the need

seems to greatest by prioritizing the needs of the processes invoved to

accompish that. Some do let you specify a certain fund, others are just all

'general funds'. Like the United Way, they claim that your money will Not be

used to fund projects you disagree with... but who's fooling who, here..? That's

all a general fund too and they cut out a percent of the funds for each project

so, in essence, you're sill part of the pool being used for objectionable

causes...I doubt that they keep tabs of the percent of dissenters and cut that

out first but who knows..it's just a 'nice thought'. Anyway, a building to

conduct the research in does seem a a first priority. You might as well object

to mailing costs, ad costs, banking costs, cost of containers, etc. as to object

to a general fund being used for a building. Sometimes that's a rude awakening

for some but it's a reality, those 'supporting' needs are real too. As for the

Houston prodcts, I think it's fair for him to use his own basic formulations to

build another product ..on..or to just use the ideas..but the law may see it

differently, as said. As for the No-Fenol product IDEA, to me,ideas are a kind

of public domain thing, as you indicated, and whoever got there first deserves

the formulaters 'award'. Doesn't mean others can't go on with the idea and do

Their Own product. For whatever reasons, the objection seemed to be the

misunderstanding of the enzymatic action...like me assuming a term meant one

thing when it was something entirely different because I didn't usnderstand the

scientce...and that's what lab tests are for, I Guess. It would have been to the

credit of the 'idea side' to have congratulated Devin, not pose rumors, or to

have gone to him and questioned the formulation, privately, and 'hashed it out'

that way...FIRST, but they didn't. What motivated them to choose the opposing

path is a real Unknown & complicated bit and that's where I think busines law

may have to decide..sort it out. What seems fair and right to me, as said, is

not necessarily in agreement with the biz. laws. The basis for the personal

attacks could have been worked out too before involving the law but to do that,

both sides have to co-operate, willingly, of which their seemed to be

hesitation, to say the least, on both sides to different degrees...that's what

mediators are for...but public mediators need to be a 'dis-interested 3rd.

party'...or someone who knows the whole business and can remain objective.

That's why I said I thought 'full disclosure' is needed, tho' I amend that

previously said from 'public' to 'in private'...everyone needs to emerge with

their 'dignity status' intact. Again, it takes a 'big' person to help facilitate

that and when they ALL Want to work together, they All will be that 'big' & will

save the opporunities of many. Is that more confusing..??Anyway, I'm getting

tired of talking about 'them' as I can't solve or resolve any of it but I Can

help to soothe feelings so that the parties may get calm and work together, it's

my hope..by My attitudes...is that unreasonable..?? All said meant in love, in

the spirit of kindness. Grandma Peg)

> ----(as a p.s. from g.peg, when my kids were at home, I canned toamato

juice by the half gallons, and counted all the quarts of green beans by the

gallons, my aunt couldn't believe it, she Didn't believe it, she had 1 child, we

had 4, so it would have been impossible for her to accept the idea that I made

c.c.cookies in batches of 12 dozen at a time...had to have lots to last a few

weeks too...but not any more. As a hostess, I'm not too good, I like to sit and

listen instead of thinking of serving glasses of drink or refiling, so I set it

all out buffet style, and it's help yourself or starve....can you believe

that..? I mean, can you Deal with that..? LOL, it's such a common practice, I'm

sure ya'll could find your way. Til later then, on the old grandma network,

Grandma Peg)

[Guest guest]

" ....I made c.c.cookies in batches of 12 dozen at a time...had to

have lots to last a few weeks too...but not any more. As a hostess,

I'm not too good, I like to sit and listen instead of thinking of

serving glasses of drink or refiling, so I set it all out buffet

style, and it's help yourself or starve....can you believe that..? I

mean, can you Deal with that..? LOL, it's such a common practice, I'm

sure ya'll could find your way. Til later then, on the old grandma

network, Grandma Peg) "

To Grandma Peg: Well then you can make the cookies and I'll be

hostess (or better yet, I'll make be hostess). And if those

cookies are really good, I suggest you get a patent on them.

[Guest guest]

> " ....I made c.c.cookies in batches of 12 dozen at a time...had to

> have lots to last a few weeks too...but not any more. As a hostess,

> I'm not too good, I like to sit and listen instead of thinking of

> serving glasses of drink or refiling, so I set it all out buffet

> style, and it's help yourself or starve....can you believe that..? I

> mean, can you Deal with that..? LOL, it's such a common practice, I'm

> sure ya'll could find your way. Til later then, on the old grandma

> network, Grandma Peg) "

>

>

>

> To Grandma Peg: Well then you can make the cookies and I'll be

> hostess (or better yet, I'll make be hostess). And if those

> cookies are really good, I suggest you get a patent on them.

>

> --------------------------------- REPLY..g.p. A aptent.?? That's a good

one but I'm afraid the Nestle company beat me to it. Good..? well, I thought so,

but they were hard, dunkers. I made a batch at the pizza place I worked and had

to hurry out of the oven so they appeared to be .not done. they were soft..and

the guys ate all but one...sor me, that's the way they waned them, but you know,

I was not able to repaet the outcome. One of the girl workers Mother was skilled

at that so we got her to make a big batch for us. At home, there also was the

occasional BBB's -burnt bottom batch- and the kids gave them to a neighbor kid

because he ate everything... those kids were in my house and one asked why a

bunch of cookies were sitting off to the side, I told him they were burned... so

then he ate them all. he also used to eat the core of apples... his Mother made

them eat them that way and they said it as because she was German..what a

laugh.but who knows..?? Grandma Peg