A couple more questions...

[Guest guest]

Please, Mike, ask them why they do these procedures on patients, if

they disbelieve in the efficacy. Is there any possible

justification???? I cannot imagine one.

For sure, I'm no expert surgeon, Mike.

And never wanna be, either.

Ummmm... More than any other in California? Maybe so. But my reporter

sniffer sez how you know that? This guy told you that????

There are a lot of docs in California, and a lot of folks who need

this stuff... And one of the most famous (ask Netalee) has not been

able to help a pal who had some congenital problems in the jaw.

Somebody else was able to do it.

" A lot of people get this surgery done for cosmetic reasons or for

reasons which are marginal. " You're gonna decide that??? I am not.

Who's marginal???? Who's doing it for cosmetic (cf functional)

reasons ???

Motives are majorly subjective things. I had, but don't any more, the

clicking, and more important to me, the pain in the sides of the

face, pre-op, but don't now.

" These are the experts talking, not you and me. " I am no expert, for

sure. But... I dunno that I think your experts are any better than

the ones who treated me. After all, my surgery turned out really

well... Especially since my surgery seems to have given splendid

results. Even if I do live in lower Alabama, which many think to be

the hinterlands of Great Medical Knowledge.

Heck no. I would not have done any of this (including the braces) for

cosmetic reasons!!! Believe me!!! But it really has helped my mouth

get healthier. My perio lady, who taught at the state dentistry

school, told me that she thought I had saved my teeth by doing all

this stuff. That's quite good enough for me.

If my docs had told me that they would not undergo the surgery, I

would not have, either. That was not their conclusion, though, and

they have helped me significantly. For pain, for stress in the jaws

and for better occlusion. I am sorry that you did not have as good a

result as did I. Truly.

C.

>

> Cammie,

> The oral surgeon that I am referring to has done more operations

that any

> other surgeon in California. He as done over 100 operations

identical to my

> specific operation- which was moving the lower jaw forward. His

total

> operation count is well over 3000. A lot of people get this surgery

done for

> cosmetic reasons or for reasons which are marginal. It is for those

people

> that I am talking to. I was one of them. Furthermore, the oral

surgeons that

> I have been talking to have mostly indicated that they would not

enter into

> this surgery unless they really needed to. Some of them indicated

that they

> have jaw problems now(ie. significant clicking or tmj pain, etc.),

but that

> they just learn to live with it and would not have it operated on.

These are

> the experts talking, not you and me.

> Mike

>

>

[Guest guest]

Please, Mike, ask them why they do these procedures on patients, if

they disbelieve in the efficacy. Is there any possible

justification???? I cannot imagine one.

For sure, I'm no expert surgeon, Mike.

And never wanna be, either.

Ummmm... More than any other in California? Maybe so. But my reporter

sniffer sez how you know that? This guy told you that????

There are a lot of docs in California, and a lot of folks who need

this stuff... And one of the most famous (ask Netalee) has not been

able to help a pal who had some congenital problems in the jaw.

Somebody else was able to do it.

" A lot of people get this surgery done for cosmetic reasons or for

reasons which are marginal. " You're gonna decide that??? I am not.

Who's marginal???? Who's doing it for cosmetic (cf functional)

reasons ???

Motives are majorly subjective things. I had, but don't any more, the

clicking, and more important to me, the pain in the sides of the

face, pre-op, but don't now.

" These are the experts talking, not you and me. " I am no expert, for

sure. But... I dunno that I think your experts are any better than

the ones who treated me. After all, my surgery turned out really

well... Especially since my surgery seems to have given splendid

results. Even if I do live in lower Alabama, which many think to be

the hinterlands of Great Medical Knowledge.

Heck no. I would not have done any of this (including the braces) for

cosmetic reasons!!! Believe me!!! But it really has helped my mouth

get healthier. My perio lady, who taught at the state dentistry

school, told me that she thought I had saved my teeth by doing all

this stuff. That's quite good enough for me.

If my docs had told me that they would not undergo the surgery, I

would not have, either. That was not their conclusion, though, and

they have helped me significantly. For pain, for stress in the jaws

and for better occlusion. I am sorry that you did not have as good a

result as did I. Truly.

C.

>

> Cammie,

> The oral surgeon that I am referring to has done more operations

that any

> other surgeon in California. He as done over 100 operations

identical to my

> specific operation- which was moving the lower jaw forward. His

total

> operation count is well over 3000. A lot of people get this surgery

done for

> cosmetic reasons or for reasons which are marginal. It is for those

people

> that I am talking to. I was one of them. Furthermore, the oral

surgeons that

> I have been talking to have mostly indicated that they would not

enter into

> this surgery unless they really needed to. Some of them indicated

that they

> have jaw problems now(ie. significant clicking or tmj pain, etc.),

but that

> they just learn to live with it and would not have it operated on.

These are

> the experts talking, not you and me.

> Mike

>

>

[Guest guest]

Cammie,

How about if we agree that we have vastly different opinions regarding the

need for, and success of, orthognathic surgery and leave it at that.

Mike

>From: ceast36532 no_reply >

>Reply-To: orthognathicsurgerysupport

>To: orthognathicsurgerysupport

>Subject: [Orthognathic Surgery Support ]

> Re: A

>couple more questions...

>Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 08:57:26 -0000

>

>Please, Mike, ask them why they do these procedures on patients, if

>they disbelieve in the efficacy. Is there any possible

>justification???? I cannot imagine one.

>

>

>For sure, I'm no expert surgeon, Mike.

>

>And never wanna be, either.

>

>Ummmm... More than any other in California? Maybe so. But my reporter

>sniffer sez how you know that? This guy told you that????

>

>There are a lot of docs in California, and a lot of folks who need

>this stuff... And one of the most famous (ask Netalee) has not been

>able to help a pal who had some congenital problems in the jaw.

>Somebody else was able to do it.

>

> " A lot of people get this surgery done for cosmetic reasons or for

>reasons which are marginal. " You're gonna decide that??? I am not.

>Who's marginal???? Who's doing it for cosmetic (cf functional)

>reasons ???

>

>Motives are majorly subjective things. I had, but don't any more, the

>clicking, and more important to me, the pain in the sides of the

>face, pre-op, but don't now.

>

>

> " These are the experts talking, not you and me. " I am no expert, for

>sure. But... I dunno that I think your experts are any better than

>the ones who treated me. After all, my surgery turned out really

>well... Especially since my surgery seems to have given splendid

>results. Even if I do live in lower Alabama, which many think to be

>the hinterlands of Great Medical Knowledge.

>

>Heck no. I would not have done any of this (including the braces) for

>cosmetic reasons!!! Believe me!!! But it really has helped my mouth

>get healthier. My perio lady, who taught at the state dentistry

>school, told me that she thought I had saved my teeth by doing all

>this stuff. That's quite good enough for me.

>

>If my docs had told me that they would not undergo the surgery, I

>would not have, either. That was not their conclusion, though, and

>they have helped me significantly. For pain, for stress in the jaws

>and for better occlusion. I am sorry that you did not have as good a

>result as did I. Truly.

>

>C.

>

>

>

>

>

> >

> > Cammie,

> > The oral surgeon that I am referring to has done more operations

>that any

> > other surgeon in California. He as done over 100 operations

>identical to my

> > specific operation- which was moving the lower jaw forward. His

>total

> > operation count is well over 3000. A lot of people get this surgery

>done for

> > cosmetic reasons or for reasons which are marginal. It is for those

>people

> > that I am talking to. I was one of them. Furthermore, the oral

>surgeons that

> > I have been talking to have mostly indicated that they would not

>enter into

> > this surgery unless they really needed to. Some of them indicated

>that they

> > have jaw problems now(ie. significant clicking or tmj pain, etc.),

>but that

> > they just learn to live with it and would not have it operated on.

>These are

> > the experts talking, not you and me.

> > Mike

> >

> >

>

_________________________________________________________________

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[Guest guest]

Suits me, Mike. And good wishes to you.

Cammie

> > >

> > > Cammie,

> > > The oral surgeon that I am referring to has done more operations

> >that any

> > > other surgeon in California. He as done over 100 operations

> >identical to my

> > > specific operation- which was moving the lower jaw forward. His

> >total

> > > operation count is well over 3000. A lot of people get this

surgery

> >done for

> > > cosmetic reasons or for reasons which are marginal. It is for

those

> >people

> > > that I am talking to. I was one of them. Furthermore, the oral

> >surgeons that

> > > I have been talking to have mostly indicated that they would not

> >enter into

> > > this surgery unless they really needed to. Some of them

indicated

> >that they

> > > have jaw problems now(ie. significant clicking or tmj pain,

etc.),

> >but that

> > > they just learn to live with it and would not have it operated

on.

> >These are

> > > the experts talking, not you and me.

> > > Mike

> > >

> > >

> >

>

> _________________________________________________________________

> The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE*

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[Guest guest]

ask them why they do these procedures on patients, if

>they disbelieve in the efficacy. Is there any possible

>justification???? I cannot imagine one.

from cammie,

I think Cammies trying to make the point that the people you talked

to would be overly negative to say that? Probably most oral

surgeons got into doing uppers and lowers because they don't work?

I think that would be depressing. Maybe for them the risks aren't

worth it, but most of them probably don't have jacked up mouths.

You also may not be terribly objective at this point and seeking out

those that agree with you?

Shiloh

> > >

> > > Cammie,

> > > The oral surgeon that I am referring to has done more

operations

> >that any

> > > other surgeon in California. He as done over 100 operations

> >identical to my

> > > specific operation- which was moving the lower jaw forward. His

> >total

> > > operation count is well over 3000. A lot of people get this

surgery

> >done for

> > > cosmetic reasons or for reasons which are marginal. It is for

those

> >people

> > > that I am talking to. I was one of them. Furthermore, the oral

> >surgeons that

> > > I have been talking to have mostly indicated that they would

not

> >enter into

> > > this surgery unless they really needed to. Some of them

indicated

> >that they

> > > have jaw problems now(ie. significant clicking or tmj pain,

etc.),

> >but that

> > > they just learn to live with it and would not have it operated

on.

> >These are

> > > the experts talking, not you and me.

> > > Mike

> > >

> > >

> >

>

> _________________________________________________________________

> The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE*

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2fjoin.msn.com%2f%3fpage%3dmisc%2fspecialoffers%26pgmarket%3den-ca

[Guest guest]

ask them why they do these procedures on patients, if

>they disbelieve in the efficacy. Is there any possible

>justification???? I cannot imagine one.

from cammie,

I think Cammies trying to make the point that the people you talked

to would be overly negative to say that? Probably most oral

surgeons got into doing uppers and lowers because they don't work?

I think that would be depressing. Maybe for them the risks aren't

worth it, but most of them probably don't have jacked up mouths.

You also may not be terribly objective at this point and seeking out

those that agree with you?

Shiloh

> > >

> > > Cammie,

> > > The oral surgeon that I am referring to has done more

operations

> >that any

> > > other surgeon in California. He as done over 100 operations

> >identical to my

> > > specific operation- which was moving the lower jaw forward. His

> >total

> > > operation count is well over 3000. A lot of people get this

surgery

> >done for

> > > cosmetic reasons or for reasons which are marginal. It is for

those

> >people

> > > that I am talking to. I was one of them. Furthermore, the oral

> >surgeons that

> > > I have been talking to have mostly indicated that they would

not

> >enter into

> > > this surgery unless they really needed to. Some of them

indicated

> >that they

> > > have jaw problems now(ie. significant clicking or tmj pain,

etc.),

> >but that

> > > they just learn to live with it and would not have it operated

on.

> >These are

> > > the experts talking, not you and me.

> > > Mike

> > >

> > >

> >

>

> _________________________________________________________________

> The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE*

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2fjoin.msn.com%2f%3fpage%3dmisc%2fspecialoffers%26pgmarket%3den-ca

[Guest guest]

ask them why they do these procedures on patients, if

>they disbelieve in the efficacy. Is there any possible

>justification???? I cannot imagine one.

from cammie,

I think Cammies trying to make the point that the people you talked

to would be overly negative to say that? Probably most oral

surgeons got into doing uppers and lowers because they don't work?

I think that would be depressing. Maybe for them the risks aren't

worth it, but most of them probably don't have jacked up mouths.

You also may not be terribly objective at this point and seeking out

those that agree with you?

Shiloh

> > >

> > > Cammie,

> > > The oral surgeon that I am referring to has done more

operations

> >that any

> > > other surgeon in California. He as done over 100 operations

> >identical to my

> > > specific operation- which was moving the lower jaw forward. His

> >total

> > > operation count is well over 3000. A lot of people get this

surgery

> >done for

> > > cosmetic reasons or for reasons which are marginal. It is for

those

> >people

> > > that I am talking to. I was one of them. Furthermore, the oral

> >surgeons that

> > > I have been talking to have mostly indicated that they would

not

> >enter into

> > > this surgery unless they really needed to. Some of them

indicated

> >that they

> > > have jaw problems now(ie. significant clicking or tmj pain,

etc.),

> >but that

> > > they just learn to live with it and would not have it operated

on.

> >These are

> > > the experts talking, not you and me.

> > > Mike

> > >

> > >

> >

>

> _________________________________________________________________

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